KiwiJ: yep. you nailed it. my own A was avoiding talking to my H about things bothering me, the A itself went on bc I avoided confronting OM when I didn't care for it and I avoided telling H. I am positive my H's A was about avoiding telling me things that bothered him or avoiding my anger or opinion, that his A kept on going even after DD as he avoided OWs anger/hurt etc and he avoided reality ....

What a dreadful pattern! I see the sense in Jelly's post: "now we fight all the time and our marriage is better!" -- I don't approve of 'fighting' for us, bc we need to learn to not do verbal/emotional injury in 'fights' - But we DO need to express our thoughts and needs and opinions much, much more frequently! And with purpose!

<small>[ November 24, 2004, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: restarting ]</small>

Pep:

I'm going 2 reply before I read others' replies, so apologies if I repeat anything.

"What stops you from taking action or speaking up?"

Fear, plain and simple. Fear of the unknown. Fear that inside, my speaking up is in some way a 'bluff', or will be received as an attempt 2 control my W. Fear that I'm 'not 2uite personally recovered' enough yet 2 speak up. Perception that speaking up must involve R-talk. My simple fed-uppedness with my W's angry outbursts. ...note that I didn't say 'fear' of them. I'm not afraid of them, I'm just sick of them. Waste of hot air with no useful or sensible content.

"What benifit(s) do you think you get by avoidance?"

Time 2 continue 2 heal personally. Success? About 50/50. I definitely get the time I 'need', but the point that I'm not making doesn't get across 2 my W.

"What has conflict avoidance cost you?"

Early on, my sanity. Probably the A is, in very large part, due 2 the fact that we're BOTH conflict avoiders. But even now it postpones marital recovery (assuming my W even wants that). Finally, I have "detached with love" 2 the point that I "love my W, but I'm not IN love with my W." Really. At least I know how 2 get that lovin' feelin' back if I find that my W wants it. Right now, I don't believe she does.

"I am hoping the good people from saveyourmarriagecentral will join in and add some perspective..."

You might post these 2uestions there, or a link here there. Penny wrote a terrific article some months back about conflict avoidance.

-ol' 2long

<small>[ November 23, 2004, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

cerri, I like what we call it better. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I hear you and understand that though, but I don't like it.

Restarting, My H and I do not throw insults or scream and yell. By me saying fight, I mean, I now say what I don't like or agree with.

That is how messed up I am, even a normal conversation, but with different opinions is a fight to me.

I'm not very graceful yet at voicing my opinion, I'm quite defensive and it isn't very pretty, but we are working our way through it, one disagreement at a time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Early in my M, my H would break down if I brought up anything about financial matters (I was supporting us at that time) - he would break down, literally - lie down on the bed and start crying. In those early days he used drugs and alcohol, even though I was under the impression these were things left way back in his past. (He did quit doing both, in his defense, the drugs right away and the drinking within the first 2 years of our M.) He also had/has a temper, but it is mostly verbal (yelling and swearing). He has occasionally broken something in the house, but never hit a living being.

My brother was physically violent and my sister and I were both afraid of his temper. He once got a gun out of the closet when he was about 15 because someone threw eggs at the house (my father got rid of all the guns after that.)

So, I am frightened of anything related to violence. With my H, I really couldn't take these displays of either crying fits or temper tantrums. I learned which subjects to avoid quite early - and also to be a conflict avoider. I have never liked conflict but I learned to RUN from it in this M.

I have a hard time now saying whether it was fear of displeasing him, fear of his emotions and what he would do, or ??? but it WAS effective in getting me to not start any conflicts. With my brother, it was definitely fear of violence.

2Long Penny wrote a terrific article some months back about conflict avoidance.

Hummm. Really? Do you know where? On my blog? Oh dear - I really am getting old and senile. Well -- senile anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

ps - we're having a little login trouble over there today. Don't ask - but if you can picture me smacking my head on my keyboard you'd be close to envisioning the frustration level. <sigh>

cerri: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Gad! You have NO IDEA how GOOD it feels 2 know that I'm not the ONLY scatterbrained person on this planet! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think I have it somewhere. It came from one of your yahoo mailings 2 SYMCers, I think. Probably about 2 or 3 months ago?

edited 2 add: It was one of the few things that I've forwarded on 2 my W. She completely ignored it, just like everything else.

-ol' 2long

<small>[ November 23, 2004, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Jelly - it is a bit sobering when you dishonesty what it really is. It hits you between the eyes that it is NOT some benign habit but a truly destructive force in intimate relationships. A study quoted at Smart Marriages names conflict avoidance as the #1 predictor of divorce. I would suspect it's a similar predictor of infidelity.

But let's be clear on what we need to share with each other. I don't much care if my clients ever tell each other what they THINK - most of the time it's highly disrespectful anyway. What they need to share is how they FEEL. Using *I* statments - in a single sentence (non run-on) and then learning to ask for change in a way that is cooperative, calm, and courteous.

THAT is addressing conflict.

Fighting, arguing, using logic to prove a point, having the better understanding of how something works - none of those are helpful when it comes to negotiating solutions in marriage.

Unlike every other process for problem solving, negotiating solutions within intimate relationships must be based on how each of you FEELS. Not what you know, think, believe, etc.

C

cerri:

I absolutely agree that conflict avoidance is often the match that lights the fuse of the A.

I don't believe it's unmet needs, at least not directly. Maybe as a consequence of avoiding conflict and not having healthy personal boundaries (weaknesses).

-ol' 2long

I do not avoid conflict with anyone but my Wife.

What stops you from taking action or speaking up?
I am large, forceful,good with words and very persuasive. I use these attributes in my work and in my life BUT I am not good at scaling down these these skills within my marriage. I don;t need customers, colleagues and other folks to like me to keep my life happy.
I do not bring these tools to bear in my M because my Wife will shut up and sulk making my life hell until she gets her own way and I have almost always caved in. I dont tolerate teh silent treatment well. Never have. Tough guy with everyone else but soft as poo with my W and kids.

You know the cat's face in Shrek 2? Thats Squid when I've confronted her <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
What benefit(s) do you think you get by avoidance?
Absolutely fricking nothing but a heartache.
What has conflict avoidance cost you?
An affair, my heart and RIGHT TO THE EDGE of losing everything

Cerri, My H and I practice the "I" statement way of communicating with each other, it is wonderful. We are discussing and solving so many issues. Before we never solved a thing.

If anybody would have asked me 2 years ago who has a communication problem, I would have said my H, but holy cow what an eye opener IC was for me. I realized I didn't communicate at all.

Conflict avoidance = dishonesty, hmmm... something else to be a shamed of. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

2Long - Yes! An affair, which I call an unethical attempt to fix something in a marriage - is another way to avoid conflict. Rather than addressing up front the stuff that needs to be fixed in the marriage the WP chooses to feel better by becoming involved with someone else.

I realize that's a simplistic view - but with the layers of interpersonal dynamics added to flesh it out - it's pretty much what happens.

And, of course, unmet needs are often the result of being dishonest (avoiding conflict) about what one needs and being unskilled in negotiating for those things.

C

2long said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't believe it's unmet needs, at least not directly. Maybe as a consequence of avoiding conflict and not having healthy personal boundaries (weaknesses).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been thinking about this often lately, just when I thought I had it all figured out, this dawned on me.

I didn't want this A to start, had I been able to say NO, when I didn't like the OM's advances, this never would have taken place. I was afraid to hurt his feelings, I was afraid to make him mad. Not because I valued his feelings more than my H's, but because I was a big ole chicken!!!

Personal boundaries are huge for me, I just don't know how to set them. I'm embarrased of my pathetic weakness, and how easy it was for OM to pull me in. YUCK!!!

Cerri,

I think I have a copy of that post on CA that you wrote. I'll look for it on my hard drive.

I think I CA because it feel safe for the moment! I realize that it's not a permanent solution, but for that moment, it seems at some level to make sense!

I am not a conflict avoider... anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My conflict avoidance allowed my H to slip further and further into his drinking ... and then into his affair... without me voicing any objections to his distancing behaviors.

NOW... we are both more functional at "finding our voice"... as my H likes to call it.

Sometimes, I instigate conflict on MB boards, usually by asking probing questions. It is not unusual for someone who has problems with conflict to take offense by my questions. Then the issue suddenly becomes ~my personality~ ... when in fact, the issue is the conflictive feelings and anxiety that were arroused by being asked uncomfortable questions. And guess what? This never bothers me.

I don't care if any of you like me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

If you do... lucky me. If you don't ... maybe later we can develop a better relationship.

Pep

I am the QUEEN of conflict avoiders.

Why? I grew up a quiet child with most members of my family having huge tempers. Easier to avoid than to have HUGE ANGER shown toward you.

I also married a man with a huge temper. He can out-mad me any day of the week.

Where has it gotten me? In this mess that used to be my life. My WH is still in contact with OW. He has moved back home (I avoided conflict with him, and let him). I have lots of info, but have to screw up my courage to confront him.

I've lost the little respect I gained earlier. Expecially my self-respect. I MUST get it back.

What do you mean - "I" sentences?

"I" hate you, you liar?

"I" want to slap the crap out of you?

K

My wife and I are both conflict avoiders.

For me it comes from physical abuse at the hands of my sister when I was growing up. Long story, wont get into it here.

But I ended up having problems showing or voicing negitive emotions. Getting better though.

Its cost me alot, just hopefully not my marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KiwiJ.:
Edited to add: Pep, it's no coincidence is it that most FWS's are conflict avoider supremos?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Personally ... I see major conflict avoidance among many of the BS on MB. Especially the ones who REFUSE to expose the affair!!! "I don't want to cause more trouble."

Hell ... When the damn house is on fire!!! Ring the alarm and cause a ruckus!!!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

What do you mean - "I" sentences?

"I" hate you, you liar?

"I" want to slap the crap out of you?


Oh, thank you for that K! First time I've laughed in two days! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't care if any of you like me!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep, I envy that, how do you get there? Or has it always been that way for you, and does it cause problems??? Seriously asking.

I think I read somewhere in the past few days that you posted also, "what you think of me is your business" something like that. I loved that, but truthfully, I want to send everybody a little note saying, do you like me, circle yes, or no.

I statements really do help.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kyellow4:
I think I read somewhere in the past few days that you posted also, "what you think of me is your business" something like that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What you think of me is none of my business.

When I use your opinion of me to form my opinion of myself... it's called "borrowed functioning"... something I learned about in Passionate Marriage... a book by David Schnarch.

This is the usual stumbling block to intimacy... by the way ... because when I borrow your opinion to form my opinion about myself... I have just boxed you into a corner where you better not move if you want to be my friend.

See?

Pep