I don’t think I should share my avoidance issues. To do so would just get everyone angry. At me.

Just like dealing with my alcoholic mom. I learned early to keep everything to myself. Never stand out or you will become a target. It is much better to protect everyone, like younger brothers and sisters, from consequences. Especially when the consequences are not deserved in any way.

So it’s better to be a doormat. And a good one.

That being said, I am changing, I think. But I think if feels like it’s more a change towards emotional independence rather than closer intimacy.

T

Thos,

Read your post and had to log back in. I once took a seminar called "change your mind, change your life" where the object was to discover what your "core values" are. The therapist and most of my classmates were followers of "A Course in Miracles", which by the way is life changing if you ever get a chance.

Anyway, I grew up with an alcoholic dad and gambling addict mom who had both died a couple of years before the class. I was not and am still not able to go back to my childhood in any type of therapy setting. I can not think of my parents in a bad light. So I suppose that is a form of conflict avoidance for me, and one I will never conquer because of my unwillingness to remember my parents in a bad light.

My point to you being, in the class there were several men who had suffered different types of abuse and part of their therapy was to take out the hurt on the punching bag. Not picturing their abusive and/or addict parent as the punching bag but the hurt and destruction as the punching bag while the punched it. They would punch those bags while crying and remembering the injustice and hurt inflicted on them by their parent/parents. It was very theraputic (cathartic) for them they said and helped a long way in their recovery.

Just a thought to share with you.

{{{{{Thos}}}}}

Regarding the "I" thing... my H infuriates me with his use of this technique. He does NOT say how he feels, but instead says things like "I am sorry that you feel that way..." -- and it sounds cold, unfeeling, and sterile. Besides it does NOT even sound honest - it's more like "Hi, how are you?" or "Have a nice day".

So, what's my problem that I react that way?

Sigh. I had all these really good things to say, and then the image of Cerri's husband with pumpkin pie and whipped cream bits all over him showed up in my head.... followed by images of their two cats looking absolutely bedraggled and covered in pumpkin pie, all over the Cerri/Cerrish household.

Now I'm just giggling. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Weaver,

I too am a student of A Course In Miracles!! I'm always pleased to find another.

My reasons for being a CA are valid too. Seemed a survival tool growing up. However, it's not very effective to be a CA as an adult. It's something I'm working on too.

Between that and the image of me with the keyboard imprint on my forehead...... I'm glad I could provide a little pre-holiday entertainment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

C

Pep -

Thanks for the thread. I have always been a conflict avoider and still am. I grew up in a home where there was constant screaming and fighting between my mom and dad. I vowed at an early age (about 7) that I would never argue like they did.

To me, NOTHING is worth fighting over. At least nothing in day to day things. I would fight for my country, for oppressed people, etc. But the ordinary things are not worth fighting about for me. I just don't care about most things enough to fight.

This thread is really enlightening and its so true. Conflict avoidance really is just dishonesty under another name... but with one difference - sometimes people can't be honest about their emotions because they don't really understand or admit them to themselves!

I have been a bit like this at times in the past. For example, for me, the dishonesty came from not telling my H of my unhappiness and fear ie, 'I am unhappy in our R' and 'I am afraid that I will never be happy, because part of our problems come from your issues... and only you can want to change yourself'.

But I wasn't even admitting to myself that I was really unhappy or afraid... maybe I feared rejection if I admitted it. I was often the upbeat, cheerful, hopeful one when he was depressed or admitted doubts.

Still, here we are almost 6 months post Dday and nothing much has changed, except that we are further apart, so maybe that fear was accurate.

weaver:

Here's the first part of it:

"The Difference Between Secret And Private

Private matters are those traits, truths, beliefs, and ideas about ourselves that we keep to ourselves. They might include our fantasies and daydreams, feelings about the way the world works, and spiritual beliefs. Private matters, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, give another person some insight into the revealer.

Secrets, on the other hand, consist of information that has potentially negative impact on someone else-emotionally, physically, or financially. Secrets, when revealed either accidentally or purposefully, cause great chaos or harm to the secret-keeper and those around him or her.

Private: I believe in reincarnation.

Secret: I have a wife and a mistress and neither knows about the other.

Private: I got terrible grades in high school.

Secret: I forged my medical degree."

-ol' 2long

Weaver,

Thanx for the thoughts.

I cannot remember my childhood as particularly bad either. My dad was outstanding and protected us as best he could. Not much violence from mom after I turned 15 or so. After dad died young (cancer) mom became sort a binge drinker (she still is, at 79). She would drink herself comatose mostly when none of us older kids were around. Problem being, with nine kids, I am the oldest, someone usually found her passed out in the kitchen or bedroom and I or our oldest sister would get the call.

Mom could not be relied on in any emotional sense. No heart-to-heart talks, no help with homework, no nothing but stay out of the line of sight when she was either drinking or wanting to drink. If I stuck my head up or became otherwise visible I would become the target of all the anger and vitriol she carried inside. If it was one of my younger brothers or sisters getting it, I would intentionally say something so that it would be redirected at me. So I learned to avoid not only confrontation but also even the appearance of confrontation.

The same became true with three of my brothers when I was in college. They became hard alcoholics and drug users. I could never confront them either without it becoming violent.

Partly a happy ending, though. Two of my brothers have been through treatment and have been sober for years. I was the family support member in treatment for the first of them. The third brother is sill drinking and using after attending three in-patient treatment centers. I think he will die of it.

Al-Anon has helped me lovingly detach. Helped me lovingly detach from W’s A behavior too. Al-Anon is where I learned about codependency and conflict avoidance and where many of my wimpy behaviors come from. I guess maybe 90% of the men in the all-men’s group I attend are not only dealing with FOO or current family addictions but, like me, also dealing with their W's A.

T

So...What's everyone doing on Thanksgiving?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LINY:
<strong> So...What's everyone doing on Thanksgiving? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bugger all mate. We British lick our wounds at the thought of the butt kicking that the settlement of America bought us ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Cleaning up splattered pumpkin pie and giving the cats a bath? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

JK - heading out today to take two kids to their dad's and then leaving very early tomorrow for my mom's - on kid going with us. We spent the last five years using long holiday weekends to work on our house we're at a bit of a loss now that it's done. We may rip something apart just to have a new project after a long weekend with my mom and her bf! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Blessings all!

C

So...

How do you know if you are "avoiding conflict"..

or simply "choosing your battles"?

Seems to me that a very fine line is there.

What might be "avoiding conflict" for me...might simply be someone else "choosing their battle" in the same situation...and vice versa.

It must surely be individual.

Or...are those 2 things entirely different?

committed

Hmmmm..... there's a difference between being honest about how you feel in the moment and battling. If you are being dishonest about something that is likely to irritate you again in the future then you're avoiding conflict. If your partner is having a crummy day and doing something s/eh wouldn't ordinarily do and you decide to let it pass that's just being compassionate and understanding.

Errr... of course that assumes that the 'something s/he wouldn't ordinarily do' is relatively benign and not along the lines of abusing someone or something or gambling away your life's savings.

Edited to add: Addressing conflict is NOT (not, not, not) the same as arguing, fighting, battling, screaming, or any other manner of chaotic behaviors. Conflict is unavoidable. The only way you can have a conflict free existence is to be dead. And since none of us has seen personally what's on the other side I would suggest that there's conflict there as well.
Even if you are alone and stranded on a desert isle - there will still be conflict of some sort to deal with.

Addressing conflict in marriage is about being honest in the moment about HOW YOU FEEL (not what you think/believe)and then, once you are skilled at that, asking for and negotiating toward change in a cooperative fashion. Does it make waves when you do so? Of course! But if you think that avoiding issues will not make waves you are wrong. You can be dishonest and postpone conflict in the present but I can guarantee it will come back and bite you in the you-know-what sooner or later.

C

<small>[ November 24, 2004, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

Interesting.

CA makes waves, taking on conflict in the moment in a healthy manner damps those waves out before they swamp the ship...

-ol' 2long

Fine. I'll bite. For real.

Without going back and seeing who actually said these things, I do think ALL WS's are conflict avoiders.

And to sum it up very nicely, it's just another way of being dishonest--with oneself. But isn't that where it all starts, anyway.

It's so human nature not to want conflict. Just the way that it is. HOWEVER, during our developmental years, we only know what we see. I saw two very loving parents, that, however, never showed affection. We all (6 kids) just were supposed to "know it." Everything was provided for me, no arguments between them. Never saw the "control room" discussions. Where problems were resolved, arguments ensued, discussions were had.

Not a follower, not a leader. Marched to my own beat. Couldn't create waves that way, right?

Jump to adulthood. Never had the tools to resolve "correctly." Not an excuse; just fact. Always just thought that problems just went away on their own, right? So in HS, when I was pushed over my comfort zone that I actually had to work to achieve the very high standards that were set, but very attainable, first sign of avoiding conflict. I did the bare minimum. Second and third? My first two girlfriends. More avoidance of conflict. Always wanted to please and dishonest about it (whatever "it" the topic was) if I had to be, to avoid conflict.

Still was accepted into a very good college with, again, high standards. In retrospect, completely not ready for college. Or did I just ignore the tools? Failed HORRIBLY. Didn't attend classes, only had four "real" friends during that year. On the very dim side, discovered what I thought I enjoyed. Communications, specifically, radio.

Came back home. Saw what a competitive field Radio was and just crumbled. (Got an intern and regular job at two different stations, so, saw it first hand.) Went to the community college and tried to get myself back on track. Found a live-in loafer and didn't have the balls to kick her out. God forbid! More conflict! Couldn't do that, now, could I? Found enough nerve to finally flog the horse, and meanwhile met brown.

OK. (Don't forget: this is the condensed, 30 minute version of LINY's life.)

Met my wife to be. Planning wedding...Ooops! Pregnant! Pushed up the wedding by a year--did NOT want our D to be brought into the world without us being M. POJA, so to speak.

Everything going well for the first few years. Then, the problems start. Brown starts retreating. Depression sets in. And MB happens. This, all in the matter of about three years. You think I would actually attempt to find out what the hell was wrong? Even be supportive of whatever was taking place? Nope. Not me. The Master Avoider, at his finest! So between this emotional mess looming (and unavoidable, just the manner it was handled was avoided), enter stage right, gambling. Everything works out on their own, right? I was starting to realize, they don't. So, finances become an issue, and instead of tackling them and resolving, I escape into the world of scratch-offs to take the easy way out, trying to catch that quick fix. (It's no wonder I'm not a drug addict. OH, that's right: I am! To nicotine!)

So to sum up this big part of my life: wife in depression, has nervous breakdown, and I handle it by turning my back and escape through gambling. What a guy, huh?

So all this time, I am madly applying band-aids to the leeward hole to keep the ship afloat, while running to the starboard side and using an ice pick to puncture my own hole.

Ah...woe is me.

So, in retrospect during this time, probably had a whole bunch of EA's--whoever would listen and succomb to my charm. Male and female alike. Funny, how the one person who I have devoted my life with and to, needed my attention--no, needed me the most, well...

"What about me?" (Stomping my feet like the baby of six "should" do.)

So, this continues for a few years. HA! Pulled one over on her! I can lie about my gambling...hell, I could probably lie about anything! So, I became a great liar through my gambling. But we all know the ol' saying: Who was I really fooling?

But I "needed" someone to hear me; to console me. Brown couldn't, for sure, right? She was struggling with her own demons. How in the world could I ever lean on her? How could I let her in on my own problems? Heck, she was one of them, right? I didn't know how to deal with this. I was "burdened" with taking care of everything. Where was my attention? Enter stage left, OW.

The amazing woman brown is, conquered this on her own. She conquered depression single-handedly. Uh-oh! Now, how do I handle this? She's this "new" woman. She's strong. She still loves me through all of this. How? WTF?!?!?

So, dontchya know? Turn my back again! Well, I had done all of this for years, how could brown understand? Fell hook, line and sinker for OW's plot: just had a miscarriage, went into foreclosure (not $$ reasons, or so I was told), and no help from her spouse. Oh, poor you. Hey wait, me too!!! (Adjusting my halo.)

Blah, blah blah, blah blah. Yech. And any explicitive you can think of.

Oh, it doesn't end there. No, no, no. One more avoidance--for old times sake!

EA exposed, NC established...well, not really. For awhile, though. (That's me, justifying again.) And I again, was above it--avoidance--it can't happen to me. Why don't you think I still can't be friends with her? Oh, that's right: You're married, d!ckhead and the one you should be applying yourself to is your W, not some two-bit, conniving (sp), self-centered, selfish, girl-with-a-plan. (Did I miss a spot? I can't see the back of my halo.)


Brown always told me, "Until it's your plan is it worth doing." Well, duh, yeah. It takes me that long to get my head out of my a$$. Duh!

Well, for once, I trusted brown. I listened to her words. Very carefully. "If you don't stop gambling and don't stop contacting {OW}, pack your bags and leave." She's said this before. Without the OW part, just the gambling. But, I trust her. I don't think I ever did in our M. And I trusted her that she meant it.

Breakthrough? Bet your damn sweet a$$! 34 years, and I think it was the first time I didn't avoid a conflict. And I had a choice. It's not that. I want my M. I want my brown. I want me. And I want them all at the same time. Golly gee...you know? I can have them all at the same time! Amazing! Or can I? Is it too late?

So, for the first time, I was honest. I trusted. And I didn't avoid conflict. And won't again. This is why I completely understand and believe the statement of whoever said that it's just yet another way to be dishonest with onesself.


I consider myself to be very blessed that it only has taken me 34 years to realize this. I consider myself to be blessed that I do understand all of this now. I consider myself to be blessed that brown is giving me yet another chance. Albeit, the last one. I won't need another.

The moxsie is still there. Just peppered with lots of humility now.

Wow. It is life-shaking to see so much of my inner self scattered about in so many others' lives...

Confession: At first, when I originally read the beginning of the post, I was going in to read it with that self-satisfied, smug attitude that "this is surely my H" (CAer) and with that back-of-the-mind approach that "maybe he'll see it and recognize himself" (not that he's reading much, tho - but one does hope!)

Then I posted with some little admission that perhaps I was avoiding conflict - mildly - but certainly not like my H.

Then - BAM - all these remarkably self-honest people post! And it hit me square between the eyes - I am a conflict avoider, TOO!!! In every, single aspect of my life!!!

I saw that despite believing whole-heartedly for most of my life that since I easily wade into 'conflict' (debate, discussion, opinions, logic,etc), that I am a pitiful, dyed-in-the-wool, itinerate CONFLICT AVOIDER.

Having never backed down from my own opinions, having courageously (or stubbornly), logically debated virtually any point, having been free with my own advice and observations throughout my life and relationships - IT NEVER OCCURRED TO ME that the one thing I avoid - consistantly, blindly, at all costs, it seems - is truth and honesty and confessions of FEELINGS.

"What do I actually ~feel~ ???" whoo. "Dangerous. Far, far too dangerous to reveal."

What is the danger? Why do I fear sharing what I feel?

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! Every single one of you!

The first blow to the forehead:

Cerri wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What they need to share is how they FEEL. Using *I* statments - in a single sentence (non run-on) and then learning to ask for change in a way that is cooperative, calm, and courteous.

THAT is addressing conflict.

Fighting, arguing, using logic to prove a point, having the better understanding of how something works - none of those are helpful when it comes to negotiating solutions in marriage.

Unlike every other process for problem solving, negotiating solutions within intimate relationships must be based on how each of you FEELS. Not what you know, think, believe, etc.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2nd blow:
Kyellow4 wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If anybody would have asked me 2 years ago who has a communication problem, I would have said my H, but holy cow what an eye opener IC was for me. I realized I didn't communicate at all. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">self-image-shattering blow:
KYellow4 wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I didn't want this A to start, had I been able to say NO, when I didn't like the OM's advances, this never would have taken place. I was afraid to hurt his feelings, I was afraid to make him mad. Not because I valued his feelings more than my H's, but because I was a big ole chicken!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(K- I had not ever honestly looked at myself before! - I had blamed OM for being a pig and taking advantage, I had blamed H for an earlier event, but never, truly myself for anything other than 'revenge' and 'taking responsibility' for what I'd gotten into - NEVER that I was avoiding conflict at every turn!

Ceri gave me another:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ....attempting to solve marital conflict by using opinions and logic as the basis for making decisions is bound to spiral downward into disrespect and arguments. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And, finally, pulling it all together,
Smur wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This thread is really enlightening and its so true. Conflict avoidance really is just dishonesty under another name... but with one difference - sometimes people can't be honest about their emotions because they don't really understand or admit them to themselves!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, Thanks to all of you! Thank you for opening my eyes! Thank you for your candor!

I guess we are conflict avoiders too. Both of us are afraid of being real in case we get rejected.

So how do you break this cycle?

I am willing to take the risk,to do the reaching, but I know how scared he is .

It is like walking on eggs. Words don't quite work because he has been lied to before, or people have broken promises to him.

When we start to talk about anything that might hint of rejection from me, he literally stands at the door with his coat on...

It is like trying to befriend a dog that has been treated cruelly. He comes a little close, then runs off, comes back- I get too close and he runs off again.

Shul

You break the cycle the same way you move a mountain with a tablespoon. One tiny little scoop (or step - or statement) at a time.

When our marriages are in trouble we want to fix it NOW. But what we fail to realize is that fixing it now means addressing only what is in front of us right now. Not the yuck from the last 15 years (or months or weeks). Just right now.

So - what's in front of you right now that you don't want to or don't know how to deal with? That's where you break the cycle.

When I have clients to do this I have them begin only with sharing feelings. Not asking for change - not expecting anything. Just sharing the feelings that are present in the moment and then changing the subject.

Once they can do that I have them move it forward by asking for input and for change in a cooperative manner.

I used to have people do this in one step. It was.... oooohhhh.... a little less than successful shall we say? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> The first step has to be just speaking and hearing - and then moving to a differen topic. The atmosphere of blame, defensiveness, I'm-right-you're-wrong, needs to be calmed down.

So these are statements that are only about feelings and not about asking for change - that comes later.

Honey - I'm overwhelmed with the holiday stuff and I'm really frustrated with what's left to do. (Honesty statement) I'm going to have a cup of hot tea now - would you like some too? (change of subject)

I'm really annoyed when everyone leaves for the day and the dog is not fed. (Honesty statement) How was your meeting today? (change of subject)

I'm put out that the dishes are still on the dinner table. (Honesty statement) Is CSI on tonight or are there holiday specials instead? (change of subject)

Feel completely powerless? Great!! Then you're doing it right. You are being honest in the moment AND you are simply leaving it there without a demand, without disrespect and without losing your temper. You MUST be able to do this before you can begin to negotiate for change. Negotiation, in order for it to work cooperatively, needs a calm and cooperative space in which to begin and grow.

If your partner bites your head off and attempts to begin an argument about what you just said "God dam* it - you know I worked all day PLUS I cooked dinner while you sat and watched tv and now you're bit**ing about the dishes on the table? Unbelievable!" DO NOT ENGAGE. The only appropriate answer is "I'm not asking you to do anything, I just want you to know how I feel. So, how was your meeting?"

If s/he still tries to argue - even after you change the subject for the second time - just walk away. Creating the space for calm is the first step. If you do this consistently and you don't make your statements about the other person but about YOU and how you FEEL then eventually s/he will calm down and be less defensive.

See - being honesty and addressing what concerns you in the moment is not about a failing on the part of someone else. Saying that you are unhappy with an action or choice is not a reflection of the other person's value - it is only stating your internal reaction to what is going on in your life. Sure - their actions can make you feel badly - that doesn't make him or her bad people.

C