CSue -- you want Musing on Marriage - Marital Cancer, which Cerri posted on the Yahoo group on August 23. Took me a while to find it, too. I thought it was more recent than that.

Since I'm not Cerri, I'm not going to post it here, but you can find it at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Save-Your-Marriage-Central/message/740

(You have to be a member of the group to access it, but you can join for free and without giving your e-mail address.)

Shul..

I want to congratulate you on a beautifully written, well thought out post.

However, what you consider "intimacy" I would consider "a fix".

By allowing him to come and go without suffering loss you are giving him your implicit appoval for his mistreatment of you and your child together.

We must consider two things.

1) You are not God. God however has given you very specific directions per dealing with someone who has fallen away. You didn't like the timeframe or the results and so rejected this. Very tricky. Good luck with your approach, because...

2) He wants both. Unless you force a choice he won't make one. Are you afraid that he won't choose you? It sounds like you are. It sounds like fear cloaked in piety. Denial is a very deep river that conjoins sacrifice..sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between the two.

I can't answer definatively in your stead..but I can tell you that from here..way over on the banks of no vested interest..it looks like you have wandered into the former not seeing the posted signs and disregarding the villagers who are jumping up and down and gesturing emphatically.

It is possible that the villagers are wrong..despite the fact that this is their native habitat..but it is also possible that you have rejected the very directive required to regain the minimum standard of acceptable conduct..something that we all wither for lack of.

It's worth thinking about. None of the tactics that you employ have been consistently, measurably successfull. Not for you, not for anyone if the Harley method is not to be discredited..as your method is in outright conflict with what they espouse. Plan A and B are likely a better choice.

Noodle

I didn't think I'd ever post again, but this thread caught my eye. I'm beginning to really understand how much of a conflict avoider I am.

What keeps me from taking action or speaking up?:

Well, fear of rejection for sure. But it's more a fear of humiliation with me. My father would treat my ideas/opinions with contempt. To this day I am unable to clearly articulate what I think or feel.

In addition though, I've noticed that I avoid conflict because of the feelings stirred up in my for the other person(s). This is so strange to me. I view the person I'm in conflict with as the enemy. I have an almost impossible time feeling any good thoughts about him or her. It takes a long time to get over it. Then, I don't know how to protect myself in case it happens again. Yuck.

What benefits do I think I get by avoidance?:

Control No humiliation. No hatred.
('Course that doesn't really happen. Like I heard on Dr. Phil, I've created that which I fear the most. I lose control, and feel both humilation and hatred whenever I CA. You'd THINK I'd stop doing it. LOL)

What has CA cost you?:

A close relationship with my husband. Friends. I'm scared to have friends because I inevitably do something that upsets them, or I don't agree with them, or something. Then I don't continue the friendship, or I continue a friendship I shouldn't because I don't believe I am allowed to set boundaries - or if I do set them, that they are too harsh.

Wow. Kinda scarey.

Thanks Pep for asking the question.

Seeking

Bless you Just J,

I would never have found it...

I'll print and keep a copy. It's this musings of Penny that will help me hold myself accountable.
Thanks, CSue

Conflict Avoidance, hunh?...I think I prefer the term dishonesty. Please forgive me if I repeat, the thread is long and I don't have a printer.

I was severely abused as a child and couldn't deal with it until my 20's. I didn't WANT to I HAD to to keep my sanity. I let people walk all over me. I tried to please everyone all the time to avoid being hurt. It didn't work. I became depressed. I didn't care if I lived or died. I finally got help. I had to learn to really love myself first, it sounds cliche, I know. Like Pepperband, I no longer care what people think of me or whether or not they like me, because I am secure with who I am. I like me. I don't mind being wrong or being called to the carpet, because even if I make a mistake...I still like me. I wouldn't even change the abuse I suffered because if I change my past, I change ME. I like me too much for that.

My fwh...big conflict avoider. Alcoholic, success driven, over critical (even to this day) parents!!! He wants their approval!!! Drives me nuts. I can't talk to him, if I want to POJA something he takes it as criticism. It takes me literally weeks to formulate a way to tell him something without setting off his defenses, which makes all communication pointless. He procrastinates the most daunting of tasks because of his fear of failure ie: legal paperwork, money dealings. Most of this has a time limit and we suffer financially or legally because of it and I'm left finding a way to get us out of the mess. I have this task alone because he's busy sulkiing in his guilt for not taking action!...avoiding more conflict!

How in the world do I get through to my H that I love him unconditionally. I can do that because I love myself that way. I will support him ALWAYS, even when I don't agree with him because I don't want to change him or improve him. I just want him to be able to share himself with me and stand up for himself with pride. I want him to have the ability to meet life's challenges without fear, so he can feel good about himself. I want him to be able to love me unconditionally so I have the freedom to just be ME.

HappyMom-

I hope you come back to this thread since I have a question for you.

How did you learn to love yourself? I was abused as a child - not severely - but it's still affected me badly.

I attempted to start an affair to deal with my unhappiness with myself, but thankfully got derailed. However, I am having problems again which has lead to more dreaming of affair(s).

I'm wondering if it has to do with how much I dislike myself. I think I avoid conflict with myself. Make sense?

Anyway, I've been through years and years and years of therapy but have not reached the state you have. I certainly would like to.

Thanks,
Seeking

Seeking More,

I am not happymom, but I can tell you how I learned love, and to love myself. It was through my DD. When she was first born it was through holding her and caring for her. When she became a little older it was through interaction with her. I loved her, cherished her, played with her and something happened. She loved me back. Something about healing the broken child in me by becoming a loving mother. Now she is ten and it is through our friendship and with the other little girls that come to my house. Now I get to play and interact with them as a loving friend and heal the scared little girl I was when I was their age.

My parents were not abusive but they were addicts so not fully "there" .

Do you have children? If not you might be able to volenteer at your local hospital as a baby holder in the pediatric word. Or at a church they usually need someone to take care of the babies during church.

Anyway, wanted to share what helped me. And I too hope happymom comes back and shares her healing story with us.

<small>[ November 28, 2004, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

I have been a conflict avoider, I guess I still am. It seems since my whole saga began (as a result of my conflict avoidance in some sort of way) I have been less of such. My WW and I seem to "duke it out" more now than we ever did before, so maybe in a crazy sort of way this is good for me?

Who knows.

MIF?

bump for C

I got a lot of this thread too! Thanks Pep! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Seeking, now I hope you come back to this thread.

Your first post on here could have been written word for word my Mrs. E so it really caught my attention. Then when I read your 2nd post it really freaked me out. Could you elaborate on your "problems" and your thoughts now about an A?

Mrs. E and I are trying to A proof our M and you sound so similar to her it might give me/us some insite.

bump... Seeking are you out there?

There is lots to absorb here! UGH - hubby and I had a horrible fight last night, thank goodness it was in front of our marriage counselor.

She should be a football ref!

How does one learn to argue? I have never learned and I find it extremely difficult to speak up.

I have to finish reading this thread before I ask questions I think!

How does one learn to argue?

I've had to forget how to argue, and learn how to discuss.

I see your point Bob - but then how does one learn to discuss without getting into an arguement. I let my emotions get the best of me and I absolutely hate that!

chackler, I think the idea is to not argue but to attempt a peacful resoulution. Now if I can just convince Mrs. E of this. Conflict resoulution is not her strong suit. I always used to tell her that she only knew how to get mad or give in but we're working on that.

Conflict=growth

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">chackler, I think the idea is to not argue but to attempt a peacful resoulution. Now if I can just convince Mrs. E of this. Conflict resoulution is not her strong suit. I always used to tell her that she only knew how to get mad or give in but we're working on that.

Conflict=growth
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think the problem with me is that I avoid anything that merely resembles conflict. It's torture for me to even bring up little things, which soon grow into BIG things, because I didn't say anything in the first place.

I know that my abuse as a child has a lot to do with it. I am wondering if that is common with conflict avoiders.

How does one get the courage to speak up when something isn't right? How does one get the guts to believe they have a valid point in the first place? I often feel as if what I have to say isn't important, isn't really worth it to begin with, so I hold it in.

Am I even making sense?

I know that conflict = growth but to me conflict = a slap in the face, though I know that won't happen.

I haven't followed this thread until now. Only read the last 2 pages, but it seems to fit for me in my present place. At this point in my life I am the apposite of a CA. Before the A I thought H and I had both learned that it is better to deal with conflict when it comes up rather than avoid it, thus making it so much more of a bigger deal. Of course the A blew everything we learned right out of the water.

After the A for months I think we were able to talk pretty well, in spite of the horrendous pain. Now I see H reverting back to that CA mode. I hate it!

Chackler, I can tell you that my H was abused as a kid and it definitely has fostered CA in him. What he perceives as an attack, for me can be a disagreement. Sometimes not even a disagreement. It might be a difficult conversation. He will forsake intimacy in order to avoid conflict. Unfortunately for me it might end up being the death of our recovery. The A was the fantasy of a R without conflict. Everything was so easy. H says he is over that fantasy. I think he is over OW, but still has that lingering feeling that if our M has conflict it must not be right. I, on the other hand, believe any couple will experience conflict. Especially us unfortunate ones who are dealing with the aftermath of an A. To think there won't be any sort of conflict is ludicrous. It's how the Ss deal with it that is the important thing. IMHO! CV

Hi CV--

You brought up some interesting points...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chackler, I can tell you that my H was abused as a kid and it definitely has fostered CA in him. What he perceives as an attack, for me can be a disagreement. Sometimes not even a disagreement. It might be a difficult conversation. He will forsake intimacy in order to avoid conflict. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I take it that by intimacy you mean verbal communication. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I have to admit that I am the same way. Unfortunately I have a fear that something bad will happen to me. It's not on a conscious level but more sub-conscious. It's funny though because now I am noticing when I am avoiding situations that might be difficult, where as before I wouldn't even know I was avoiding them. My counselor says that's a good thing, but I don't feel it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately for me it might end up being the death of our recovery. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Our marriage counselor told me last night that if I avoid these situations it will be the death of our marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think he is over OW, but still has that lingering feeling that if our M has conflict it must not be right. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can totally relate to this. Though I have to say I am getting better on not dwelling on OM when hubby and I argue. I'm trying very hard not to go down that road anymore. It is getting easier but it was a struggle for quite a few months after d-day. I had a fantasy that OM and I would never argue - I created this perfect world inside my head. Again, I can totally relate to your hubby on this one, but I'm learning that it's a horribly unhealthy thought process.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">, on the other hand, believe any couple will experience conflict. Especially us unfortunate ones who are dealing with the aftermath of an A. To think there won't be any sort of conflict is ludicrous. It's how the Ss deal with it that is the important thing. IMHO! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you are right about every couple experiences conflict. When you grow up in an unhealthy environment though it's hard to really feel that. My head knows that every couple butt's heads now and then but my heart still feels fear. I wish I saw my family deal with conflict in a good way, then maybe I wouldn't be so afraid.

I'm learning though - it's just a tough road.

Sorry if my grammar is off - I'm way past my bed time!

Chackler

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How does one get the courage to speak up when something isn't right? How does one get the guts to believe they have a valid point in the first place? I often feel as if what I have to say isn't important, isn't really worth it to begin with, so I hold it in.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You sound like my H.
I remember having fights very early in our marriage. I remember he says he can't fight with me because "You will always be right, I can never win." And that led to what I call the turtle-syndrome. Hiding when things are bad and only taking the good times. I find myself carrying the burden of the relationship and we drifted apart when he was having his A.

I can only speak for myself and my relationship: when we fight, I do need to hear what my H has to say. I need to know his thoughts and feelings. I don't want to be talking to a stonewall. And yes, I admit that when we fought, I needed to "win". This came from my childhood sibling rivalry! I don't need to 'win' anymore now, I need to be heard. I need my H to acknowledge my hurt feelings or anger and end the fight with a resolution. And I need to have a 'make-up' session. I hate going on pretending nothing's happened and everything's alright. I need to feel that I am still loved despite having problems in our M.

Also, my H needs to have realistic expectations of a relationship... that Rs change and grow and becomes stable and enriched. No relationship remains in that 'rolling-in-love' stage. That there are ups and downs in life- career, personal relationships, spiritual life and I need to know that H will stick through all the good and bad times.

Chackler, I can't tell you where to find the courage. But part of it this is being able to be open and honest to your spouse. You have different point of views and feelings... men and women often do, and both have different ways of solving problems. Like my explanation above, most of the time, us women just want to be heard and have our feelings acknowledged!

I learnt a lot from this thread. I will try not to 'attack' my H so often. In order to do that, I also need him to address issues immediately before it accumulates and blows up.
Thank you all, for sharing.

Bump for daha...