Salon's advice columnist, Cary Tennis, usually gives very good advice, IMHO. This one surprised me:

http://www.salon.com/mwt/col/tenn/2004/11/22/spying_on_wife/index.html

GC

Hi, graycloud.

For the most part, I agree with his advice.

When the betrayed spouse realizes that the marriage is permanently broken, there are two options instead of the authors one.

The betrayed spouse can attempt to woo a wayward, or accept a repentant spouse back to start a new marriage, or the betrayed spouse can end the relationship. Either way, the previous marriage/relationship is dead.

Gimble

I didn't mean to suggest I disagree with his advice. In my book, the BS gets a free pass to end the marriage any time he wants.

GC

I think the ad they make you watch is better value than the advice.

Of course if he's right we may as well all give up no, close down this board and look forward to at least ten marriages in a lifetime. I hope not many people read this column but if they do I might retrain as a divorce lawyer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by graycloud:
<strong> I didn't mean to suggest I disagree with his advice. In my book, the BS gets a free pass to end the marriage any time he wants.

GC </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't think you did disagree :-)

Several decades ago, my wife and I had to shoot our first relationship in the head and give it a proper burial. The baggage of misdeeds was just too heavy a burden to carry. We were married almost 28 years ago after a little better than two years of just about the most horrific treatment of each other (mostly my mistreatment of her - but no violence) you can imagine.

I firmly believe that a recovered marriage or relationship is actually a new one, built out of different material than the first one. In order to survive, it must be built differently. After all, the first one was structurally unsound.

My $0.02 worth anyway :-)
Gimble

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Gimble:
I firmly believe that a recovered marriage or relationship is actually a new one, built out of different material than the first one. In order to survive, it must be built differently. After all, the first one was structurally unsound.
Gimble [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I love the way you put that! I'm keeping that one. -FIM

Thanks, FIM.

I am glad you can use it. My wife and I have some good scars to show for that little bit of learned-the-hard-way wisdom :-)

One day when you and hubby are back together and have carved your fortress out of stone, maybe we can all get together and compare scars. I think that could be fun :-)

All the best,
Gimble

Hmm,

I'd have to disagree, you simply can not forget the past. It is there and defines what your relationship is today...your current, although it sounds extremely better is partly built upon the knowledge of the other side of the fence. That knowledge helps you know, I love this person. It helps you to know, for better and worse, I choose this person. New marriage? No, just a more complete and maturely chosen marriage, one honored above the standards of most.

I disagree with the post of the advisor. Sounds like a cop out for a topic that is to tough to deal with in a single article. If we operate on the princples defined by that article, if our children get a bad grade in Art class, we should just write that subject off and never try to persue art, or music even, since the two are tied together, and math also, since music is highly composed of mathematics. See what I mean? Of course you do. To blanket advise that guy in that fashion, without having a clue about his religious viewpoints, and not even concerning himself with whether or not he loves his wife.. gheez. GRRR.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by RookKev:
<strong> Hmm,

I'd have to disagree, you simply can not forget the past. It is there and defines what your relationship is today...your current, although it sounds extremely better is partly built upon the knowledge of the other side of the fence. That knowledge helps you know, I love this person. It helps you to know, for better and worse, I choose this person. New marriage? No, just a more complete and maturely chosen marriage, one honored above the standards of most.
[snip]
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Assuming you wrote this in response to me.

None of us can get away from our past. I was speaking figuratively. Having said that, if you have a past like mine, that will never be repeated, then one is wise to try and put it behind. You simply can't reconcile the past. That is why Jesus came here (for those of us that believe)

If I had not truly the 'repented' of the past, then that might be a different story.

I have learned all I can from certain parts of my past. That is pain and guilt. Cause and effect, things I can never take back. I can wallow in my guilt and remorse, or I can move forward and 'sin no more'.

My wife and I chose to move forward 28 years ago. We changed our lives and committed ourselves to a different way of living. We will never truly forget our past, but at long last, it is nothing more than a whisper.

All the best,
Gimble

Gimble,

Absolutely, but, in our human state, I don't think we can truely separate ourselves from the past cleanly. We can absolutely change the choices we make in the present, but that past is still there.

I can't think of a good analogy...maybe a car. If you buy a Ford, and Ford after Ford fails on you...does that mean Ford makes crappy cars? No...it means in your experience those cars you had were junk, and you got rid of them...but you are aware of the defect possibilities, and thus may choose to buy a Chevy instead. You still used the past education to make smart decisions for your life and money in the future.

Gosh, that just doesn't feel like a good analogy. Hmmm. Honestly, I admire your ability for your marriage, to say, that is over, this is new. It's cool. Perhaps that really is what forgiveness is about...and yes, I'm a Christian, so I totally understand your point on Christ. Perhaps it comes down to my own faith being to weak still...most likely that is honestly the problem. Let's hope it's not super small tonight, I need God on my team big time. I've got a monster challenge in front of me.

Oh, and Gimble. I meant absolutely no disrespect to you, honestly. That specific subject is something I've been thinking on...sort of down the whole renewing vows topic and such. Better or worse...know what I mean?

GRAYCLOUD -- CAN YOU PASTE THE ARTICLE IN A POST? SOME OF US HAVE ALREADY USED UP OUR "FREE DAY PASS."

The man who knew too much -- about his wife
He spied on her and caught her fooling around. Now what?

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Cary Tennis


Nov. 22, 2004 | Dear Cary,

I know what I'm going through is all too common, though of course for me it feels pretty singular. My wife of three years has spent the summer having an affair with my friend of 15 years. I found out by reading their text messages, which didn't leave very much room for the imagination about their sexual activities or their feelings. Since then I've done a pretty bang-up job rifling through her computer and phone records to unearth hordes of information. I probably know more about this affair than most spouses find out. I know that they are/were in love. My wife confirmed it.

When I confronted her, she denied and denied, then finally admitted it when it was clear I knew. She said she is choosing me, and we have been working for the past couple of months to work it out. Our marriage hasn't been perfect, but neither I nor my wife can account for why she strayed yet (we are seeing counselors). I asked her to break off all contact with him, but he is volunteering at her school, so there has been some contact there. The other contact has been that every couple of weeks since I found out she has sent him pleading e-mails -- pleading him to stay at her school, to try to be around, talking about how much she misses him -- which I duly discover in my now regular snooping. These e-mails haven't been utterly damning, but they certainly haven't been encouraging. Each time (three or four now) there is another round of confrontation, denial, admission.

After the last one, I broke. I told her to go ahead and speak to him, do whatever, since my wishes clearly couldn't stop her. I just wanted her to stop lying to me. I said I was going to give us both some space. With almost no thought, she decided that she would, in fact, talk to him. That was tonight. After spending some time with friends, I left to go hide near the other man's house and waited for them to come back from the bar where, ostensibly, my wife was finally giving him the heave-ho. I watched as they shared a few passionate kisses before he walked to the door. My wife and I spoke a few minutes later. Confrontation. Denial. Admission. She says that the kisses were for "closure" and that it's finally and really done. I don't know whether she is telling the truth, lying to me, or lying to herself.


So now I clearly have a few problems. One is whether and how to trust my wife again -- without interrogating her. Another is whether and how to stop snooping around. But Cary, the snooping keeps yielding results. I want to stay with my wife, but I'm tired of being kicked around. I'm trying to maintain a supportive attitude, but I can't tell the difference between that and my own desire to just be comforted by my wife. I have to figure something out soon -- my entire professional life is in the toilet because of my own slack before this and my utter inability to work at all once I found out.

Depressed Digerati Doormat


---------------------------


Dear Digerati,

While human life is infinitely rich and variable, my view of it is hopelessly constricted, as though I were a small boy peering through the keyhole in a palace door at a glittering costume ball attended by thousands. Not only is my view small, but my time to contemplate what I observe is even smaller. Given my duties in the palace, I can only spend a minute at the keyhole, and then I must run off to compose my notes.

So I am always on the lookout for situations that are relatively easy to understand, problems whose solution is clear. This is one such problem. The service I offer, being a stranger, is to coldly survey the situation and report on the obvious.

In this case, here is the obvious: This marriage is already over. There is no trust in this marriage. Trust defines marriage. Without trust you cannot have a marriage. So in essence you do not have a marriage. You may be feeling fearful about the consequences of ending this marriage, but you don't need to. This marriage is already over.

It ended when you lost the ability to believe what your wife tells you. All you need to do now is figure out how to divide the property and find a place to live. It's really that simple.

Stay single for a while. Take care of yourself. You've been betrayed; you need to heal. Don't trade your integrity and pride again for anything -- not for a woman's love or sex or anything. Eat well, stay healthy, and concentrate on your work; in a year or two you'll begin to feel better. Eventually you will meet a woman you both desire and can trust, and perhaps it will be time to try marriage again.

I do hear you Rook.

In our case, we had no where else to go. We sincerely loved each other, but we had made such a mess of our beginning, that we could either walk away, or drive a stake in the ground and declare that from this day forward, we would never go back to what was.

In practicality, that was a lot of work and determination. It was a recovery. It was also a repentance and a turning away from the past. It probably won't work for everyone, but for us, it is all that we had to work with. Both of us are from very dysfunctional homes. Our parents were of no help.

I know what you mean on the cars. In the 70's, I owned 5 chevys. All 5 had the same engine problem. Burned/stuck valves. Every car I have purchased since then has been a Ford, with the exception of one Toyota :-)

I am truly sorry for the pain and difficulty you are in, Rook. Humans have such potential to cause others pain, even when they don't intend to.

Please don't sell your walk with God short. A person does the best they can in bad circumstances. God is a lot more interested in your heart than how well you behave.

God Bless,
Gimble