I just sent WH an email:

Quote: WH, I have been struggling with a decision that I have been reluctant to follow through on. It would be best if you did not come either this weekend or at Christmas.

Please do not think that this decision means that I believe you are free from your marital or family commitments. I am not saying that you are free to date, etc. My beliefs have not changed on that at all.

So, while I love you and will always stand by you and help you, I see that you are incapable of doing the same. While I will not give up on trying to resolve our issues, I feel that your knee-jerk defensiveness, lack of common courtesy and your disrespectful attitude towards me is uncalled for. I see that you are struggling, I also see that you consistently and very deliberately choose to do what causes me the most pain.

Your continuous lying about even the most insignificant details, confirms my belief that you are attempting to alienate me. If I walk away, you can say "See, she abandoned me!" Well, that is far from the truth. I know that is why you hustled us off the ship. Your buddies would actually get to see the uncaring b!tch, right? I am not responsible for your choices to lie to me, to commit adultery, or anything else that you would prefer to blame me for. I refuse to enable your treatment of not only me, but of your daughter. I will not be your scapegoat for your issues. Your actions are deliberate and calculated to be hurtful.

I accept responsibility for my own part in our problems, but I am not responsible for your lack of commitment, your lies, or your refusal to attempt to fix things.

I will let you know about any purchase offer and DD's report card, etc. Other than that, I will live up to my promise to not email you.

Please have a good trip and stay safe. See you December 10th.


Love Always,
Your Faithful, Wife,
BS

P.S.I would appreciate it if you emailed Fleet Coordinator to authorize me meeting you on December 10th. And, to set up a joint session with MC for Dec 10th as well. You have both of their emails so you can cc me when you set that up. The counselling is to try to communicate in a more constructive manner for the sake of not only our marriage, but in our roles as DD's parents. Our marriage and family is my primary concern. And even though you refuse to participate, that does not change my feelings.

A little rough, I know. But, this is my first real attempt to stop the complete erosion of my Love Bank. And, I just cannot see how I can continue to Plan A successfully when his #1 EN is Financial Support (Yes! Really <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )while I am here and he is in another city! There is no way I can see to do that. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

It is sent but I would appreciate some feedback.

Edited to acknowledge that this was a bad Plan B <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

<small>[ November 26, 2004, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: fightingalone-again ]</small>

Tired,
I would say that this is not a plan B e-mail, although I am NOT pro at this at all. In fact, I myself haven't been able to compose an appropriate letter. I think you got a lot off your chest by writing it, but you used a lot of LB and probably just created tension. From my understanding the Plan B letter is supposed to be more of a 'love letter'. This is why mine is still in the works. I think at a point we hold to much pain and hurt to get our message across without using LB.
I am sure some more experienced people will help you too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Danielle

Hi, DanigirlinVA:

Yes, you are right. Lots of LBs. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I spent HOURS rewriting it and took out most the the "you dork, you goof," etc. I did think I was laying out my boundaries and why. That is, because of his lies and his avoidance, etc. And I am just sick and tired of being blamed for everything that HE does. I feel I have been enabling his behaviour because of my demands/expectations, etc. So I need to take myself out of the picture. At least until I get back home to his city.

I am probably wrong. What the heck. It's not like it hasn't happened before.

Hi fightingalone again,
I understand how you feel because me myself I have been sitting here, thinking about whether or not send a plan B letter.
My H is in the Army and after he came back from Iraq last year in october, the Army moved him back to the States.
We decided together, that it would be better for me and our children to stay behind in Germany, since we owe a house over here and I am a local national anyway. He planned on trying to come back as soon as possible and the first month he really tried but then...

For the last 11 years of our marriage we have been here in Germany and my H always says, that he wants to retire over here. So for the last 11 years I raised our children S10,D4 more or less by myself and took care of everything.
It didn't take my H very long though, to get involved with an OW and her two children and let her move in with him.
This has been going on now for almost a year and I found out about 6 months ago because a girlfriend of the OW called me one night to let me know about it just in time to make sure, we would not all meet at a family reunion in Florida in July.
He keeps telling us, that he wants to return back to Germany and that he already put paperwork in for it but can I believe that?

He has not seen his children now for almost 9 months except for 1 day in July and still, he finds excuses not to come here and see us even for Xmas although I did not ever go off on him or anything like it.
Is he just going the easy way, so that he does not get into an argument with OW or what? In July, since I did not want to meet him in Florida after finding out about it, he came to visit us in Germany instead but already when he arrived he told me, he had only gotten approved 10 days of leave instead of the 3 weeks that had been planned for Florida and he also told me and our councelor, that he had broken up with the OW.

Well, after 3 days of him seeming to be depressed or maybe missing her, who knows,I saw his leave form and of course he still had the 3 weeks of leave approved. That same evening I caught him on the phone with the OW and boy, she really got him by the b...
Every other word from that OW was bs and I have never heard anybody use this word as often in my lifetime as this lady used it in one conversation.
So I asked my husband to pack up and leave and he did that in a heartbeat and flew back to her, to spend the rest of the 3 weeks with her.

She must have already made it real hard for him the first time, to even come at all and see us, so maybe she is doing the same thing right now about Xmas, especially since her bday is on the 29th of dec. as well! But shouldn't he be man enough to tell her off...? He talks to me on the phone once in a while and tells me about how it is gonna be once he is back here and so on but his actions don't say the same thing then his words do!I suggested to him for us to come see him but he does have excuses for that too, like we would be in his way while he is moving and so on, like he is actually moving on Xmas day?!

He did not tell me yet where he is moving to or with whom, he just said he wanted to separate from her and that he could not just throw her out on the other hand, after helping her so much.
Our children miss their daddy very much and the little one keeps asking him every time on the phone when he is coming back and still; not even for Xmas!
Should I just tell him- either you come over here or we come over there? Any suggestions?

Or should I just stick to plan A, since he said he put the paperwork in to get stationed over here again by the latest in the summer?

HELP!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

But now about your post. I understand you beeing upset but maybe we should try not to make too many accusations although I often feel like I am too soft and nice to him but I think it would do no good to go off on somebody at this stage or maybe not at all. Maybe later there hopefully will be a time and a place to talk it all through but right now, I don't think so.

Of course my friends and family slowly but surely think I should tell him to stay where he is right now, especially now that he does not
want to come for Xmas but I don't know...

Wait and see for his reactions on the mail and take it from there; good luck to you!!!!!!

<small>[ November 24, 2004, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: dakotamoon ]</small>

No, it is NOT a Plan B letter at all.

You should NOT use these statements (and similar). Using MB principles, you are learning to communicate in loving ways without saying/doing things which will hurt the other, regardless of their actions and statements towards you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, while I love you and will always stand by you and help you, I see that you are incapable of doing the same.

I also see that you consistently and very deliberately choose to do what causes me the most pain.

Your continuous lying about even the most insignificant details, confirms my belief that you are attempting to alienate me. If I walk away, you can say "See, she abandoned me!" Well, that is far from the truth. I know that is why you hustled us off the ship. Your buddies would actually get to see the uncaring b!tch, right? I am not responsible for your choices to lie to me, to commit adultery, or anything else that you would prefer to blame me for. Your actions are deliberate and calculated to be hurtful.

but I am not responsible for your lack of commitment, your lies, or your refusal to attempt to fix things.

And even though you refuse to participate, that does not change my feelings.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me comment on these two sentences.
I also see that you consistently and very deliberately choose to do what causes me the most pain.
Your actions are deliberate and calculated to be hurtful.
Almost never does a ws do things with the intent to hurt the betrayed spouse (even though it may seem that way).
They do them to satisfy their own selfish desires.

Hi, dakotamoon. I was born in Germany, too. Yes, everyone is right, I shouldn't have said what I did. But, it is the truth. And I have proof. Knowing him, he will do and say nothing. That is his style. And from the senaking around and th elies and all th eother stuff that he has pulled lately, I would say he is relieved. Now he can really blame me. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Hey Chris. Interesting advice. Most of it is true.

But, when you said "Almost never does a ws do things with the intent to hurt the betrayed spouse ", I guess my WH does fall into that almost never class. Each and every time I have asked him to a)not get involved with anyone, b) not date c) not spend the mortgage money; he does. So, what I said was and is true.

And, though rather clumsy, when I said he is pushing me to walk away so he can justify his actions, is also true. He admitted that to me.

Right now, I am frustrated because I feel that I am acting as an Enabler to his behaviour. I don't know how to disengage from his verbal abuse and his lack of respect any other way. I have tried to ignore his BS, and I have stayed calm, even loving, when normally I would have gone ballistic. I have acknowledged his feelings, etc.

But somewhere along the line, he has decided that he is entitled to treat me badly.

I am ramming my head and my heart into a 50 foot wall of lies and uncaring, hateful actions. He is using me as the reason he is behaving this badly. And, because I am not in the same city, I just cannot meet his top 2 ENs.

My hope is that he will notice our absense. If not, I still have to protect my heart and my DDs as well.

I will continue to read the articles but I will not be a doormat to his behaviour.

But, when you said "Almost never does a ws do things with the intent to hurt the betrayed spouse ", I guess my WH does fall into that almost never class. Each and every time I have asked him to a)not get involved with anyone, b) not date c) not spend the mortgage money; he does. So, what I said was and is true.
Atre you saying that when he did this, his intent was only to hurt you? He simply thought, “What can I do to hurt my wife“?
And that he didn’t do it because he wanted to jump in the sack with someone else or buy golf clubs (or whatever)?

Yes, sometimes their intent is to hurt the betrayed spouse, but I’d say it is a very small percentage. You may be one.

The spouse usually does get hurt, the ws does not decide that is why they have an affair. Rather it is the opposite. They do not even think about how it will affect the spouse.
The intent of the ws is to screw someone else or buy stuff.

Chris, I am saying that! Perhaps the initial decision to carouse and spend was done to reward himself for being the giver in this relationship. His words not mine. But, every destructive action that he has taken since D-Day has been directly as a result of my asking him not to. I had repeatedly asked him to work on the marriage or at lesat not to get involved with anyone else until this one was over. So, that is what I meant as being his enabler. He can then blame me for his actions. See the rock and the hard place I am in? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

This type of behaviour is part of WHs reactions to any stress or self-doubt. It is something he learned while growing up with an alcoholic father. WH says that his father always "pushed his buttons" and that WH would deliberately either ignore what his F told him to do, or did the opposite. So, I am very familiar with his "coping mode". It is a definite pattern.

Just an update. I have moved to a different thread. I have realized that this was a huge LB. Can't change that but must try again. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I am struggling with this situation. Decisions all have a huge downside. But, I can't sit back and regroup at all.

I am going to find another MC. The counsellor that we have seen once jointly and 1 each separately has already told WH to seek legal counsel for divorce and financial implications.

WHy would I go to a counsellor that advocates walking away form the marriage rather than trying to solve our issues first? I do have an IC that I will continue to see for my own mental health. But this one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I have a call in to her to ask for an explanation to to verify that she actually advised WH to do that.

FAA,

Call your counselor and ask for their credentials. Then take it to your next counselor and ask if they run on the same thought pattern. This will help you determine how to choose a good IC/MC.

As for the OW, she is panicking of sorts. She has a sugar daddy and you are a threat to her new lifestyle. What you need t/d is prepare as if the D is coming. Check out your financial options. Ask for child support and leave him with as little financial support as possible. This OW is a gold digger and she will make his life miserable when there is a lack of funds. That w/b one of your keys to break up the A from afar.

Get the chlidren braces, make home improvements, take a trip, buy new video games <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .....etc..... just keep him sending so he has less to spending there. After all you are his family and you are worth it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

Hi, Orchid. I just got off the phone with the IC that saw WH yesterday. I asked her to confirm that she had advised WH to see a lawyer about a divorce. She said she could not. I then told her that from what WH said, even though she has only seen him once alone and once with me that she is not supporting the sanctity of our marriage and instead of giving us the tools to work on our problems she is enabling him to walk away without trying. She said she cannot work with us as a couple as my goals were so different than WHs. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> UH DUH!

I am quite sure there is an OW but I have no way of finding out who that is while I am here. She does not have a Sugar Daddy though. I have access to his account and I deliberately keep only enough money for bills in it. And when he is due to go into port, I take everything out. He does have sea pay so he is not totally broke. But I won't finance another relationship at the expense of my family!

I am so sick of counselors like that.
Those are the ones who do it for the money only I'm convinced.
I mean, if you're a marriage counselor, you should know all the 'fog babble' that comes out of someone having an A. Haven't they seem it enough times to figure that out?

What's worse is, that idiot has pretty much wrecked most chances that your H will go to a different counselor with you, as he may see it as you trying to just find a counselor who will agree with you.

Hi, TTsi. You are so right. She has totally screwed up any chance of him going to another counsellor with me. She is an enabler to his avoidance. She has made it possible for him to just walk away. Without helping him discover his underlying issues! And mine, too! I am furious!

As I write this, I am on hold with legal aid. I must formalize CS. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> I think I am totally screw@d out of buying another house as well. I do not qualify for a mortgage on my own. So, I have to have a SA in place as a salary guarantee. And I will also request he take on all of our joint debts except our 1 charge card. That I will take care of to keep my credit.

That's not to say you shouldn't try to get him to go with another counselor with you.

What I might do is, find yourself a different counselor, and interview them. Make sure you are comfortable that they are interested in the same type of counseling you are. That they want to fix the underlying issues and such, instead of the quick fix answer.

Then when you talk to your H about it, you could do a sort of "reverse fog babble" on him.
He's going to probably ask why you want to see someone different, you could say that the prevous counselor only gave you quick fix ideas to your OWN problems, and that you know there are no quick fixes to anything, that you want to find and work on the underlying issues of yourself, and that you know those will take some time to address them properly.

Kind of like planting a seed, and you aren't directly really saying anything about the counselor's advice to your H, but in a way you are.

Another day and I am still here. I am forcing myself to not try and find him. I only have to last 3 days and then he is gone until Dec 10th. I am going to try to not contact him at all unless it is about the house or DD. I will leave it up to him.

In the meantime, I have printed off Ark's Plan A and have it posted right on my computer. This is to remind me that if I can't Plan A our conversations either by phone or email, don't talk to him at all.

My new mantra is
1. No Plan A - No talk. Boy, that is a big one for me. He is such a DORK! Such a child. So, I really want to treat him like a 5 year old that needs a lecture. But, I know I would make DJs if I started on the emails or phone.
2. I will not beg
3. I will not talk ANY R talk
4. Use this time to improve ME!
5. Continue with IC
6. Keep busy packing and getting ready for the move.

So, I have a goal in place.

How does that sound? Better?