Hi All, a bit of a vent here.

My WW continues to lie / withhold details of the A, even after it has supposedly ended and she is now living on her own(because I asked her leave).

It frustrates the cr@p out of me that she still does this even though I have continually prove that I know a lot more about the A than she gives me credit for.

The OP's spouse and I talk from time to time and occasionally she confirms or tells me new snippets of info. My WW continued to contact the OP after he dumped her (because of exposure) but again still refuses to admit it.

What will it take for this girl to be decent enough tell me the whole story so I can try to have some respect for her?

Apparently the OP opened up to his spouse the week that the A was exposed. My WS still keeps as much as possible secret. It is at least 6 months since I found out and she is still very scarce with the truth and or does not want to talk about the A (mainly because I catch her lying about things to me).

This eats away at me as I struggle cope with the feelings of disappointment, anger and to also believe that the A is over when she is still so secretive / untruthful about it.

After reading much about how an A should end, this obviously did not end the ideal way. That being the case, I also suspect that she is still holding a torch for him?

Q) Am I crazy to imagine that she is still hung up on him?
Q2) Am I expecting too much in relation to her being honest about the A (warts and all) and is she likely to ever do this?

<small>[ November 24, 2004, 08:24 PM: Message edited by: RenaissanceMan ]</small>

Yes, she is still likely hung up on the OM. I am sorry but it takes time. You probably have to let it run its course now that you had her move out. You don't have much influence on her now.
Be patient.

TooSoon

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by RenaissanceMan:
<strong>My WS still keeps as much as possible secret. It is at least 6 months since I found out and she is still very scarce with the truth and or does not want to talk about the A... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it would help you if you understood why this is the case. People don't always lie to hide. Often they lie to avoid. They almost never do it for fun.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>This eats away at me as I struggle cope with the feelings of disappointment, anger and to also believe that the A is over when she is still so secretive / untruthful about it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I may be a bit rigid in my thinking, but I default to assuming that until a solid commitment to recovery followed by action is happening, the A is still alive. Even if it's only in the mind of the WS. Which is where it really matters anyway. Naturally there are exceptions to this, and one should be open to them and not jump to conclusions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Q) Am I crazy to imagine that she is still hung up on him?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't imagine. Sheesh. It'll kill ya. Make a decision to assume she is. Always remember that your assumption was a decision and it won't hurt so much because you allow that you might be wrong. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Then go about your Plan A. Ask about or deduce her ENs and start to meet them.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Q2) Am I expecting too much in relation to her being honest about the A (warts and all) and is she likely to ever do this? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If there's one thing that I've learned through this, it's that everyone is very different. Some people go slow, some go fast. I'm a 'fast' person. My W is a 'slow' person. After my D-day, I came clean and jumped into recovery. Instant NC and lots of reading and posting here. I became aware of my wife's affair last year about this time. It continued for over a month and I moved out with my son in Jan. 2003. She joined me in June and though I'm sure the A is over, we are still not officially in recovery... (I'm so far from going over what really happened those 6 months that I'm thinking it might be a good thing to keep us occupied when we retire.) Thankfully, I don't have any great urgent need to hear any details to get past the affair. What drives me crazy though, is how she can't just make up her mind and decide. And I mean really decide.

But... she's different than I am. And whereas I can be prone to impulsive behaviors, she shows a more steady and cautiously persistant approach. So there's two sides to that coin.

<strong> What will it take for this girl to be decent enough tell me the whole story so I can try to have some respect for her? </strong>[/QUOTE]

Time?
Trust? (Yes, WS have trust issues too)
A real commitment to recovery?

Is she, by nature, deceitful? Or is being deceitful part of what's causing her pain and confusion?

Just some thoughts.

dewt

TooSoonToBeComfortable, thanks and no need to apologise for being honest, I suspect as much anyway, just nice to have someone else confirm it.

dewt, thank you for your candor. There is no committment from either of us at the moment as I refuse to pretend that there is hope when she is clearly still jerkin me around and not being honest. I am at this stage moving towards the big D as there appears no real or perceived effort from WS. Still trying to cake eat.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by " I think it would help you if you understood why this is the case. People don't always lie to hide. Often they lie to avoid. They almost never do it for fun." Far as I can tell she is afraid about what I will think of her and that it will mean the M is finished if she admit's too much.

I guess that she has shown a tendancy to be deceitful, mainly to avoid conflict with me.

Thanks

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by RenaissanceMan:
<strong>.....After reading much about how an A should end, this obviously did not end the ideal way. That being the case, I also suspect that she is still holding a torch for him?

Q) Am I crazy to imagine that she is still hung up on him?
Q2) Am I expecting too much in relation to her being honest about the A (warts and all) and is she likely to ever do this? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RM,

Nothing has ended yet. The drama is still running. She will hold a torch or even toilet paper at this point. The question is where do you want to be when she is carrying out this foolishness?

In response to your Q1: Am I crazy to imagine that she is still hung up on him?

Answer: No.

Q2: Am I expecting too much in relation to her being honest about the A (warts and all) and is she likely to ever do this?

Answer: No you are not expecting too much just maybe too soon. She will likely end it or be forced to end it. Until she says it is over in her heart and mind, it is not wise to put yourself in harm's way. It would be like stabbing yourself over and over again for no worthy cause.

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by RenaissanceMan:
<strong>I am not sure I understand what you mean by " I think it would help you if you understood why this is the case. People don't always lie to hide. Often they lie to avoid. They almost never do it for fun." Far as I can tell she is afraid about what I will think of her and that it will mean the M is finished if she admit's too much.

I guess that she has shown a tendancy to be deceitful, mainly to avoid conflict with me.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, the reason I ask is because if she's lying/hiding to avoid conflict with you or because she doesn't want the M to be finished, it's a good sign. It means that perhaps, down the road, as she sorts her thoughts and feelings, she may realize that being truthful and open is a better way of avoiding conflict and a better way to preserve the marriage.

dewt

There is no committment from either of us at the moment as I refuse to pretend that there is hope when she is clearly still jerkin me around and not being honest.

the one thing a WS needs...
the one thing that all human beings need...
one thing that we all should humbley offer even the most evil among is... hope....

hope that people can change....
hope that people can dig deep in to themselves and find the right path...

if and when we relinquish that hope in others...then we must relinquish it in ourselves ...
and all hope is lost....
and where there is no hope...there is no chance for any type of recovery...

be that recovery with or without your spouse....

You offer her no reason to be truthful
you offer her no incentive to be truthful

should you....
while that is your decision...
but if truth is what you desire...then you yourself must create part of the environment to facilitate that....


Am I telling you to reconcile..
nope that's your choice...

Am I telling you to invest emotionally and be hurt again...
nope that's your choice...

but the path to truth is not obtained the way you are going about it...

You can and very may well should desire the truth for yourself to help you heal and move on...
but you should alse desire the truth from her to show her that she can once again be a truthful person...

WS lie so much that eventually it 'becomes them'
they have difficulty even knowing what is truth
and may often come to believe their own lies...because the brain is powerful...in self-preserving....

while the truth may set you free..it may force your spouse to face her greatest fears..
herself..
and her own abscence of value,..worth ...and honor in this world....

WS in guise of running to OP are really running from themselves....

Renaissanceman..

you need a plan...
you need to look at your own role in how to obtain the truth....

you must look at your own creation of a safe envirionment for her to be truthful in..

you must look at your own role in demanding/seeking the truth and see if you can find another route...

one in which she can see and taste the VALUE of being truthful....

she may believe every "truth" you demand will be met with such loathing that her own selfloathing will consume her....

without hope she may see no point in hurting you more..
facing her own pain...
for what does she get from it...

lots of posturing from a WS to avoid this..
lots of false bravodo from a WS

lots of stuff.....

what exactly do you want from her!

ARK

^^

ark^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

RM,

The one thing (besides no contact) that I have been telling my WW from the start is no more secrecy, no more lies, but yet I continue to catch her hiding things and lying to me.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Folks, sorry for the slow response I have been ofline for a few days

Orchid - I feel what you are saying is right on the money. It's probbably not over yet (in her mind anyway)and I am suspecting that she would be silly enough to pick up right where they left off given half a chance.

marriage is forever? - It sounds like we are experiencing similar woes. My heart goes out to you.

Ark - Thank you for going to so much effort and detail with your post, I really appreciate it. I'll do my best to answer some questions that you posed and some that you stirred within me.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> the one thing a WS needs...
the one thing that all human beings need...
one thing that we all should humbley offer even the most evil among is... hope....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have shown / explained to WS how much I wanted to try and resolve our problems as I thought they were all addressable and normal for married couples. In that respect I have done the following(as well as lots of other things);
* Addressed/addressing behaviours that were a problem to her.
*Convinced her to go to MC (she went for a couple of sessions)
* I went to MC solo (and still do so) in the hope that we could eventually attend together.
* Continued to support her both emotionally and financially (although I am stopping the latter now)
* Told as few people as possible about the A so as not to make an R more difficult.
To be honest I am not sure what else I could do here? That's not to say I haven't made mistakes LB's, angry, etc since discovery of the A. "I should have exposed the A" and I should have done it much sooner, that's one of my biggest regrets.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but the path to truth is not obtained the way you are going about it...

You can and very may well should desire the truth for yourself to help you heal and move on...
but you should alse desire the truth from her to show her that she can once again be a truthful person...

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have asked, begged and pleaded with her. I do not know what else to here. I have tried to stop LB's, and for the most part have been very successful? I have listened to her tell me how the OP broke her heart (gutted me), even though she supposedly was just friends.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> while the truth may set you free..it may force your spouse to face her greatest fears..
herself..
and her own abscence of value,..worth ...and honor in this world....

WS in guise of running to OP are really running from themselves....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I couldn't agree with you more. I think she is feeling worthless and running from herself. For my part, I have continued to give her encouragement especially in her darkest moments. I have continually told her how she is a good person but has become lost in a sea of confusion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you need a plan...
you need to look at your own role in how to obtain the truth....

you must look at your own creation of a safe envirionment for her to be truthful in..

you must look at your own role in demanding/seeking the truth and see if you can find another route...

one in which she can see and taste the VALUE of being truthful....

she may believe every "truth" you demand will be met with such loathing that her own selfloathing will consume her....

without hope she may see no point in hurting you more..
facing her own pain...
for what does she get from it...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ark, you are right again. The environment is becoming very unproductive to her telling me the truth anytime soon. She forgets the lies she has told me in past conversations making it easy to catch her out. So i assume this must make her very uncomfortable makes her scared to talk to me. The resentment is reaching a critical level within me, hence my asking her to move out approx 6 weeks ago. I am growing tired of WS hiding the truth and the continued lies. Vacillating between being very compassionate and hateful of her. Fortunately she is not around and does not see the hate and loathing phases!!

I am tired of feeling like I am being used, which many of our mutual friends and family have indicated. WS asks me to go over and help her with some stuff, then doesn't bother turning up because she's out having too good a time with her friends. (I have explained how hurtful / disrespectful this is, but she has done it twoo weeks running)

What do I want from her, that's a very good question right now? The "truth" would be a nice start, maybe that will help provide some guidance / direction as to where from here. If it's over, then I want to try and maintain some respect for her as a person. Beyond that, I cannot tell you right now as I am fighting the hurt / disgust / betrayal and confusion of the A.

I would like to have some respect for myself as a man and to feel whole again. (My sanity would be nice too.. again;-)

Regards R-Man

<small>[ November 28, 2004, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: RenaissanceMan ]</small>

So R-Man, what is it that you want, have you worked that out yet? Life on the slippery side is very confusing sometimes, no? Our stories are very similar. Think about your WS, how bad must it be for her? She has a man who from your accounts has given her every opportunity to re-deem herself, but she has ignored the chance? She sounds like she is sloooowly realising this and the guilt / pain must haunt her every thought. You must try and deal with your own demons before you tackle hers. I hear an angry, sad and confused man in some of your postings and understandably so. This is by no means a criticism as I think it is a normal reaction to your / our situation.
Ask god for help, I am sure he is listening and will provide guidance.

<small>[ November 29, 2004, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: B-trayed ]</small>

RM...

My XW's affair has been over for 6 years. Exposure (she admitted) was 6 months ago. The situation surrounding it and how she reacted (demanding a divorce, the "I don't love you any more speech" - 1999!!)only became clear within the last month!! It has been over since then! I never knew. As we attempt to reconcile stuff comes out. Of course the affair and the circumstances of her liasons have devastated me. There's triggers that make me very angry (mostly surrounding her employment, it was a customer). When I get angry and LB (it's become inevitable I keep finding out more) I tell her it was a "scum bag move"... She becomes angry and uses the affair to hurt me.

What I do know is:

She is quite ashamed (as she should be).

She wanted the divorce because she "did not deserve me"- The affair was OVER when she asked).

She doesn't want to bring it up or discuss because she knows how bad it hurts me and it hurts her.

She did not give me any details because they would hurt me.

So essentially what I'm saying is...your WW could be resolving this differently than it would appear. However, I'm just trying to be objective.... Good luck...

Hi R-Man,

I am on trip overseas with H...can't believe I am here. Things are going well. I wanted to send an email message of encouragement, however. You have done a good job and I understand the lowering level of patience that you experience as a BS. I know you have thought alot about going completely dark and as close as you can come to that (harder for us giver BS types), the better off you will be. Remove emotional and financial support...remove yourself..protect yourself. As close as you can come..the better off you will be! I know that from experience as you know my story. Save yourself from the pain and exposure. Protect the love you have left.

xWH has expressed more de-fogged talk now than ever. He realized the value of our M and is beginning to realize the value of me. I was actually able to tell him that I loved him without him getting angry at me like he did before.

I think that your WS is going thru withdrawal with the feelings of guilt and remorse. Hang in there and go dark as best you can for as long as you can. It could help you to turn a corner.
I don't know when I can write again as internet access will be spotty...but I will be thinking of you and sending support. Go dark...it was nice without the daily drama. Take care, Chris.

ss

"Send me on my way". - Wow, six years that's incredible, I don't know how I would have coped with that. Thanks for your understanding and insight. There seem to be so many similarities.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She is quite ashamed (as she should be).

She wanted the divorce because she "did not deserve me"- The affair was OVER when she asked).

She doesn't want to bring it up or discuss because she knows how bad it hurts me and it hurts her.

She did not give me any details because they would hurt me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Word for word what my WS has said. It's scary

SS- Thanks for thinking of me and taking the time to post. I am glad to hear that you are doing better and WS's fog is lifting is.

I know you are right about what is happening as last night I gently coerced most of the details about the A out of WS. She confirmed the EA and PA. Even though I already knew 99% of what was being told, I felt like puking when she was confirming the details.

I will start a new thread as I think this one has come to it's natural conclusion given the events just described. Thanks everyone for your advice..

RM,

I need to clarify...

Her affair happened and ENDED over 6 years ago. In the last 18 months we divorced. I never knew of her PA until AFTER we began to reconcile. However...I will tell you...

She gets physically ill when it comes up...and it does because it's normal. I have questions and she will answer them honestly if she wants me back. I know I am in the drivers seat. She also knows I love her with all my heart.

I will tell you what I know:

It's normal to want to puke. I do and I think of it all the time. I also know that when it comes to SF the man has nothing on me. However I am intimadated by the man who could romance my wife. I also fear that she has chosen other men over me more than once. This was done to satisfy some of her other needs....her own self image...and in the end all it did was make her feel worse about herself.

My XW is someone who has despised cheaters her whole life. She always accused me (never happened) of having over 20 + affairs (with family, friends, coworkers, etc.). My dilema has been:

How did she make it OK? How could she go through the elaborate plans? Then, as I stood in tears as she asked for a divorce, lie to me when I asked her "Who is it?" and say no one. I am very bitter over that hell she put me through for 5 years. I was a completely broken man. Then, when I finally have someone in my life I was beginning to fall for, she decides "I made a huge mistake about our divorce...." Yet for some reason I can't help myself. I let her in...because the other person was always second best...and that is not fair....

What I won't hurry into is remarriage.....my scars are deep....and I know it will take time....

I hope that this helps...you and I have a long road....but I think I can be happy....in fact I am happier today than I was for many years (about 10). She has a lot to do with it.....I hope that you reach that same place....

There will be triggers....try and control yourself. Take charge of the triggers...one thing I did was take her to the place I was at on one of her weekend flings on the same weekend that it happened. She unknowingly went...until I calmly told her why I did what I did. I can be a victim as long as I want....and I do not want to be....

Good luck....RM...

feel free to drop me a line....

finsterdks@netscape.net

RM, Had a few minutes with computer. You may want to be careful in getting too many details on your WS's A. Details are a double edge sword. She admitted it...okay, but now what is the repair plan. I only wanted to know the details to protect myself. Not any other gory details that would not help me. Protect yourself, RM....no giver's giving.....Please be careful and take care of yourself for the sake of the M. As Spider Slayer once wrote, the BS is the M's only hope. Please don't be a hero in taking more truth than is necessary right now. WS will figure stuff out on her own or let the coach help her with it.

Anyway...still thinking of you and I will write when I can. Take care of and protect you. Best, ss <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />