Hey all,

I've been wondering how is affection (physical and non) handled during Plan A. It has been about 2 months since Dday for me and I've been putting on a decent plan A for my WW. For the past 2-3 weeks I've given about 4-5 hugs and about 2 kisses on the forehead. My WW doesn't really like me touching her, she rarely sleeps in our bed when I'm in there, she'll usually come in for a few hours before I get up for work. She usually pulls away from me when I put my arm around her. Yesterday I sat down with her on the couch, while she was nodding off and I started to give her a foot massage, she didn't pull away from me that time.

Anyway I guess my question is how are most BS's out there handling affection towards their WS when the WS doesn't really want any contact? How do you meet that EN? Do you just wait till they're ready? Or keep trying and get shot down? Any ideas guys?

well, I'm not a guy and definately not a veteran, just found this site tonight. But from my point of view, I think it is great that you are putting out the effort.As a woman and a mother I struggle with times where I don't want to be touched or bothered myself. I don't know your whole situation, but I would definately keep trying even if it means getting shot down. Try doing something with her that she really enjoys and maybe hasn't done in awhileand while she is happy,try again.EXAMPLE: when I was younger I used to love to go roller skating but have only gone once since having kids.I was kinda in the dumps and my husband took me skating to cheer me up.It brought back so many memories and I felt young again,not that I'm old...lol but I felt like I did when I used to feel alot more positive about things, then he held my hand as we skated. It really helped pull me out of that depression episode. I know it sounds kinda silly but the small things really do matter.

Well, I am only six weeks into this experience, just one week past NC...but I can tell you that I think you have to keep trying. You'll get shot down 8 out of 10 times, but the other 2 make it worthwhile.

I don't know if you're ready, or have done an EN survey yet, but one of my FWW's top three EN's was affection and I have to keep trying to fulfill that need even if it's not always well received.

This is all fine that you want to show that you've changed and grown, but don't lose sight of your own self worth.

On the one hand, patience and empathy are in order. Right now, your WW may be experiencing guilt, shame, or disgust. She may be lost in her feelings for the OM, and see your touch as some sort of betrayal of her love for him. For you to force yourself upon her at this stage is going to be received negatively.

On the other hand, if she has the desire to reconcile, she is going to have to get over those feelings, and put an effort in. It is ultimately her responsibility to put those negative emotions and perceptions behind her and focus on rebuilding.

She must understand that you are a part of this, indeed you are the one who has been wronged in this. She owes you amends for the transgression. Most importantly, she must respect your needs in this.

While I suggest backing off, I don't think it is untoward to remind her of her responsibilities in recovery, and your needs. You might be willing to be patient, but that is only because you are doing all you can to recapture her heart. Well, guess what? She has to recapture yours, and that means she is going to have to stop wallowing in self pity, self loathing, and fantasy, and step up to the plate. You need to remind her that it takes a herculean effort on both parts. Ultimately, you are going to have to remind her that you are worthy of closeness and intimacy with your partner - a partner.

I, too went into overcompensation-mode right after D-day. I genuinely saw myself as having been totally at fault in my STBXWW's A, that I 'caused' it, and that I somehow deserved it. I took it upon myself to do all of the changing and rebuilding, but never held my W accountable for her obligation to change. I suppressed my own ENs, and discounted my own pain. I forgot that I, too had been suffering pre-A, and that I was worthy of having my ENs met. I should have exerted my own needs and expectations as a "person of worth". I did not do my W any favors by allowing her to skirt her obligations to recover. I created the conditions for her to avoid her responsibility in rebuilding.

After 16 months, I began to resent like h*ll her lack of effort, which in turn diminished my desire to put forth any more effort on my part. Gradually, I simply lost the spark. In the end, I lost my love for my W. I moved out - that "woke up" my W, but it was too late. We will be D in Jan 05.

For your own sake and hers, you have to hold her accountable for her actions in recovery, as you are accountable for yours. You are going to have to back off somewhat for your part, but you are going to have to let her know she's got to put some effort in. No ultimatums, mind you! Don't threaten her - be honest and forthright.

Native- How are you doing? It is ironic that this is the first thing I clicked on this morning because as I was trying to fall asleep last night these same thoughts were running through my head. I am in a similar situation with my WW not accepting any physical contact with me. What I have decided my course of action to be is to not even try any overtly obvious acts of affection such as hugging or kissing. Instead I have decided to be more subtle and see how it works.

Example, when she or you get home and you are standing next to her, when you ask how her day was place your hand on her shoulder or the small of her back gently. Maybe brush your hand acroos her knee when your seated next to her, or a stroke of your hand through her hair. A backrub when she seems tense is always good (and one I know I can do). I have envisioned starting at that point, making subtle physical contact and trying to progress from there to more obvious and more frequent contact like a playful squeeze of the tush when i walk by her in the kitchen. If she makes a negative comment like "don't do that", I already have my response "Why, WW, I really don't know what you're talking about" spoken a little playful. Progressing on to hugs, kisses, and more. I plan on trying to bring about those feelings from when we first got together, maybe try to bring back the innocense, to let her know that I do find her attractive.

No physical contact at all may leave her with a feeling that you do not want her physically. Also, it makes it harder to start physical contact in the future. My WW told me that she didn't just wake up and decide to have an A, she drifted there over time, it was a progression. I believe that restarting physical contact with WW is going to be a progression as well.

FWW's, we BH could use your input here.

Thanks guys for the input.

HH:I don't know if you're ready, or have done an EN survey yet, but one of my FWW's top three EN's was affection and I have to keep trying to fulfill that need even if it's not always well received.

HH, I haven't done this yet, I don't know if shes ready. She is still in the mode of trying to figure out what she wants. So I don't think we're in a R yet.

Uphill: For you to force yourself upon her at this stage is going to be received negatively. Yeah that's why I haven't been pursuing this very much.

Uphill: While I suggest backing off, I don't think it is untoward to remind her of her responsibilities in recovery, and your needs. I don't think we're in a R yet, and I'm pretty sure she doesn't give a rats #$% about my physical needs right now, it's almost like she's trying to punish me. Because up until Dday our sex life was great, in fact In early Sept. of this year before Dday we were on a vacation to Florida and the bahammas.

Bear: Instead I have decided to be more subtle and see how it works.

Hey Bear, I guess I'm doing as well as can be expected (I guess that good). Yeah I kind of started the same way as you, with small touches. And now I've been able to get a hug or two.

I don't really care about my needs, I know Uphill said that is not a good thing. All I really want to do it show WW that I can be affectionate and I know that I can meet her SF needs (if that is one of her top 3, I guess I should have her do the EN if she wants to).

Yes any more input from Vets and FWW's would be greatly appreciated.

Started w/small touches and have progressed on, that's good. It sounds like your making progress. Maybe just keep up with the touches and the hugs will start to come more frequently. So much of this stuff really depends upon your WW personality and how things were in the M prior to Dday, I think.

I agree with you about your needs not being met. From everything I have read here, when in plan A you can not expect them to be met. The WS is really in taker mode and is not really able to meet your needs. That is why plan A is so hard, I suppose.

<small>[ November 26, 2004, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Bear04 ]</small>

Your WW doesn't like you touching her so don't touch her, not sexually anyway.

When it became clear early in plan A that ny Squid didn;t want me touching her OR displaying affection I just stopped doing it. I did thoughtful things she might like instead - fresh flowers, the laundry , bottles of fizz.

When she snapped at me and shouted " I know you're trying to mess with my hea d0 make m elike you !" and threw the flowers in the bin I calmly replied " It gave me pleasure to buy them for you. What you do with them is your choice."

She tells me now that once the fog lifted she was ACHING for me to fold my arms around her an dkiss her but I just carried on caring, supporting , doing tender things for her until she could bear it no more and held me an kissed me in a bar !

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Its hard but it appears many WS are like my squid and just do not appreciate direct affection. Squid says to begin with she thought I wa spathetic, didn't I realise she loved someone else? Later she felt BAD that she couldn't reciprocate. Eventually she felt undeserving of my affection and loyalty.

See? There are lots of complex reasons why WS may not appreciate affection. If so please lock up or divert your taker unti such times as affection can be welcomed and returned.

FWIW Squid loves cuddles and kisses all the time now and with lots of exhanged ILYs. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Four months ago she was the witch queen from hades.

Have hope, detach and monitor your WS responses.

all blessings.

Yeah I think it's gotten a little better. What I do know is that one of her reasons for the A was that I was cold and unaffectionate, (I was actually exahusted from averaging 4 hours of sleep a night). I'm just really trying to break through the affection barrier so that she will stop seeing the OM.

Hi. Bear, your post made me laugh. Have you been reading the Art of Seduction? Your W is right - it is a gradual progression.

This is just my two cents but don't you think it ironic how most of you have WWs who are in their thirties with small children (same applies to me)? Kids changed our marriage and my assessment of myself - I gradually started to feel like a plug instead of a desirable woman.

Affection for a woman can mean physical but also emotional - and emotional is communicated verbally and physically by non-contact communication. "ILY" or a hug and kiss starts to become meaningless over time, and what does it mean? I love the way you change diapers? make dinner? Here's the obligatory peck?

It means more to me when a man compliments me on something specific, looks, jokes, personality traits. If it's sexual and spoken in that low, low tone of voice, close to me [without touching] that can really stir the embers. A lingering look is good. A comment about "I was thinking about you last night" is good too. As a woman, I want to know I have that effect. I doubt many women would complain, and on the plus side, we can't pull away. We may say something non-receptive but it lingers positively on the mind. Words will warm her up to your hands.

But it will take time. Four months later and I'm just starting to get back real passion. My H said some beautiful things to me and that has really helped.

BDGD,

If you don't me asking are you the BS? So what your saying is words can be more powerful then physical affection? I never thought of that, go figure I'm a guy! I will try your ideas, got any more for a guy to say to his WW? Schools in session and I'm ready to learn. I may have to pick up that book you listed!!

Bob Pure- Could you expand a little more on your attempts at affection. Were they overt (hugs and kisses) or subtle (a touch on the shoulder)? My WW has expressed the same things your WW did. Right now I am "almost repulsive" to her. She has also talke about not being worthy of my love. Hard to hear, but bearable if I know it will get better.

Affection is something MANY guys have a hard time dealing with in the best of relationships. This seems to me a monumental task to accomplish in plan A.

If you could expand a little more on your progression, things that you look back on now that you think might have set you back, etc. Just trying to shorten the learning curve for those of us in the start of the process.

BDGD- NO I did not get that out of a book, I came up with the 'seduction' thing all by myself, thank you very much! (Hahaha) You definitely have to give us some more juicy stuff we can use on our WW. You triggered something for me when you talked about non-verbal communication. I remember a few weeks ago i was sitting across the room from WW. We were watching Monsters, Inc. with son for 600th time. I was just staring at her with 'that look', you now the I want you so bad look. Well, she caught me and i could see her melt for just a little while.

GDBD start listing 'em out. School is in session. It's the day after Thanksgiving, I am at work and my goal is to do as little as possible today.

Bear asked :Bob Pure- Could you expand a little more on your attempts at affection. Were they overt (hugs and kisses) or subtle (a touch on the shoulder)?

I tried cuddles and kisses in the week after d-day - welcomed like a bee sting !

Affection afterwards was a finger stroke on her thigh as changed gear when driving or a touch between the shoulder blades in bed. Also ILYs welcomed with sighs and no eye contact.

Again as welcome as a razor across the eyes.I just completely backed off.

Worked really well. I always let her know that if she was in a place where she wanted affection I was willing to offer that. Just didn;t touch her or effuse verbally. ILY became " you know I care for you" and " I think you are a good person who did a bad thing".

Worked for us. Squid chose to restore afection , which started with passioate kissing and SF and only afer another two months in heartfelt, gaze-met 'ILY's .

Lovely though. She means it now.

Bob, that sounds like some good advice. One question though, were you in a R at the time where she started "allowing" your affection? I really don't think I could say "I think your a good person that did a bad thing" that would just maker her blow up.

Just about 2 months since D-Day for me also. I started out crazy, once I started getting on track with the fight I came across as way to needy, selfish and sappy.

I struggled with this for a while and many of my physical affection advances ended up coming across as an inappropriate sexual advance. Looking back that is how I feel and is what she said then.

Slowly I was able to pull back a little more every day until she was the one that started the physical contact.

I finally made it to the family therapist and he told me that I MUST STOP. Once I plain stopped with the physical advances (no hugs, no kisses, no touching at all and only ILY's when I could not stop my tongue) she was the one that started it all for about 3 days. Since then we have shared the most satisfying affectionate moments in our 4 year marriage.

So my advice is just stop with the physical advances and see what happens. In the mean time keep up the non-physical affection. Do some laundry (my wife freaked when I started doing this, thought I was an alien or something), do more of the vacuming and other house work. For me, helping more around the house went a long way.

Good luck.

Namaste

Thanks for info everyone. I guess my next question is, when is everyone trying this? During Plan A, which is still trying to stop the A. Or during an R? Or during in between?

Thanks,
native

BTW: As for the fact that the BS can not loose site of their own needs....I am trying my best to identify and begin to correct as much of my previous bad behaviour as possible.

My thought is that I need to make these changes anyway. If we stay married then she will have to make changes as well. But it was my bad behaviours that made an unsafe environment for her to share with me in the first place. I must make these changes so she feels safe to do so also.

It is true that both partners must do their work in the long run though. I will never stay unless we are both doing our work for ourselves first which will lead to being available for each other and then for our kids.

Namaste

I am for sure still in Plan A. I am still stuggling to re-build a strong enough bond with my wife so that recovery can happen. It seems to be both slow and fast at the same time. Very confusing. But the affection between us is very satisfying finally after going through hell every day for a month at the start.

At minimum I am creating a place were we both can make a well informed decision. If we split I want it to be on the most friendly terms possible. If we choose to stay together then I want it to be more open, honest and passionate than before.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by native00:
<strong> Bob, that sounds like some good advice. One question though, were you in a R at the time where she started "allowing" your affection? I really don't think I could say "I think your a good person that did a bad thing" that would just maker her blow up. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Native its not 'advice' its just what I did after study in my sitch.

There was still contact, but only by phone when I took her to dinner and said that "I think you are a goo dperson who did a bad thing".

It made my FWW cry and hold my hand.

Understand that you are not responsibile for the reaction of your spouse to anything you say that is not an LB.

I said those things because I meant them and they were a 'Plan A' way of articulating how I felt without lovebusting. I used a load more too whenever Orchids reverse fog babble gave me a hole in the fog.

I had a whole lot of vicious fog back, but I alwasy responded saying " I can see this affects you too. Can you tell me more about how you feel about this?".

Sometimes " fook off!" was her best reply <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> but over time she opened up to me.

We still have some way to go in sharing intimacy - it seems almost everything we have left to discuss is painful to both of us, but our bond is strong enough now for us to move to that new level of intimacy - to take those risks we need to make each otehr safe.

I think that even if your WS are fogged up you should still articulate affection in a non needful, nonlovebusting way.
It worked for us it seems.