</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jojo1932:
<strong> I still don't think people get it, why should the man get away with the affair, and the OW take the blame and criticism???

I think that people who want to blame the OW don't understand the real issues with their own relationships, causing the Man to stray in the first place </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A man can stray but the girl drops her own clothing unless she is raped. What you have done as a OW/WS is bring the MM's bad thoughts into real actions which hurt both your families and a lot of other people.

You think you are without blame? Read Artstudent's daughter's letter again. See and feel her pain?

If you are a conflict avoider, you will not learn life's lessons well. Everytime you point that blame finger to the MM, just remember that 3 fingers (3xs) point back at you.

When you decide to extend you hand in support or to ask for help, is when you will really learn and be helped. Until then, you are showing the world how the selfishness of the A is deeply entrenched.

How did you NOT hurt your family with your A or A's?

L.

I did not say I was without blame....but you still seem to indicate that it is the OW's fault...and are displacing the blame from the MM...

And that is clearly wrong, especially if the MM has been deceptive

I was going to respond that I would like to hear the answers to JOJO's questions on why the OP is always the bad guy and the one to blame, but what is the use.

Would anyone like to read the letters that my daughter has put in her little notebook to my ex-fiancee, or the pictures of his children she taped to the walls in her bedroom thinking they would be the brothers and sisters she so desperately wanted, before I called off the wedding. Would you like to see the little flower girl dress hanging in her closet for our wedding which she will never wear, or the wedding dress hanging in my closet.

Do I feel like I am to blame, no not anymore. But I destroyed what could have been by wearing that "scarlet A" on my forehead like I was the slime of the earth, until I no longer remember who or what I was before the ongodly affair happened.

OW, OM, MW, MM, WS, BS - what difference does it make. Affairs are horrible, evil aborations of humanity which destroy everyone and only bring pain, regardless of who ultimately is at fault.

And yes I dropped my pants, but it was rape all the same. Rape of my soul by a liar and a cheat.

And if anyone would like to ask me what I am doing here...is it to repair my marriage?, no there never was a marriage. I am here to repair my life, and my faith in love and in people.

Jojo, I am sorry for your pain. I truly hope that you find a way to move past your broken heart and broken life & find your way back to your family and husband.

Weaver, I agree....affairs happen out of deception, it can be the man, or woman, or both...

That was my point...it seems like a lot of the posts I have read on this Marriage Builders site seem to blame the woman only, as she is the "temptress", and the "poor, wayward husband" is led down the path of temptation because she takes her pants off.

I am disturbed at the attitudes I have found regarding this matter.

The affair I had was 100% total deception...I realize now the lies he told me, and even the worse lies he told his wife...

I am not sure that my marriage will survive, I am just trying to take 1 day at a time....

Thanks for listening and understanding

I wish you well, also...

So are you saying you did not know that he was married when you entered into the R? Not that it really makes a difference since you too were M, but that might explain where you are coming from.

Jojo, as the FWW who was in exactly your position, same age as you, same length of time married, same length of A in the same circumstances but now totally and fully recovered I hope you may listen to me.

BTW, Weaver, are you OK? You don't sound good. Come and talk to me on Idiotville when you get a moment.

Affair partners are 100% to blame each. Anything else is just justification.

People here know this but they tend to focus their anger and pain on the OP in the situation, not their spouse because it makes it hard to recover with someone you would really like to throw over a cliff. My H hates the OM in our situation with a PASSION and I accept this and understand it.

Actually, last time he said he hated the OP was quite some time ago now. I think we're both pretty much at the "indifference" stage.

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jojo1932:
<strong> I did not say I was without blame....but you still seem to indicate that it is the OW's fault...and are displacing the blame from the MM...

And that is clearly wrong, especially if the MM has been deceptive </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then please clarify what you are really saying. On this site, blame is born on all parties involved. What often gets distorted is the degree of blame. The BS takes on too much blame, the WS gives it to the BS, the OP blames the WS and the BS and the finger of accusation goes on and on. The point is that a WS is not a PA unless the WS has an accomplice. Do you admit to being that accomplice? If so where is your responsibility?

You admit the MM in your case was deceptive. When you discovered that, what did you do? Stop the A? Continue the A? Push the A?

We understand that there are degrees of insanity among the WS and OP in the A. Often the WS and even the OP gain a sick pleasure of bringing pain on the family. Some do it worse than others, most BS suffer pain.

The difference between the areas of responsibility between the BS vs WS/OP is that in many cases once the BS gets back on their feet (mentally/emotionally), they can see their part/responsibility. The WS/OP on the other hand, while some may even admit it, still hold onto blaming the rest of the world.

Now you state: "I did not say I was without blame....but.... What are you attempting to justify?

There is a BIG difference between an OP and an XOP. In many cases an OP can change for the better but never does an OP get better continuing as an OP. Deceived/victim or not.

The Xws that post here are a great testimony to that fact. We are able to learn much from the insight of others. The piece I don't see here from you is that you are truly sorry for your part in the A and the damage it caused both families and all others associated with it.

Truth hurts and reality bites.

JMHO,
L.

Orchid,

This is exactly what I mean...to even reply to anyone on this site with the following message

"A man can stray but the girl drops her own clothing unless she is raped."

is not "truth" or "reality", it is insensitivity and self-righteousness.....

Of course I feel bad about everything, I was just trying to get some insight as to why I was carrying all the blame, an not the MM.

Try to be more open minded, when responding to posts.

Jojo, did you read my post?

Orchid, I don't blame my H for one minute for my choice. True, he wasn't meeting any of my needs in the period just leading up to the A but that was because he was in deep grief over the deaths of his parents and my father all in the same year.

But that STILL doesn't justify my A. The A was in part because I had no idea how to reach out to my H in his grief so I ran in the opposite direction. I would add that I was also grieving. Our whole lives as we had known them had been turned upside down. If only I'd known then what I know now about myself and how to deal with a major life crisis.

Jen

<small>[ November 26, 2004, 07:13 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ. ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was just trying to get some insight as to why I was carrying all the blame, an not the MM.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are carrying all YOUR blame, because you and you alone are responsible for your actions. MM and MM alone is responsible for his actions. Does it matter if the blame is split 50/50? I think you need to refocus your thoughts away from blame and back to what you need to do to save your M. The blame game isn't going to get you anywhere, it's not going to save your M.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Written by JoJo1932:
I still don't think people get it, why should the man get away with the affair, and the OW take the blame and criticism???

I think that people who want to blame the OW don't understand the real issues with their own relationships, causing the Man to stray in the first place.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JoJo,

What are your motives in exposing the MM? Lets be honest hon, you certainly are not concerned for the wife, else you would have never had an affair with her husband. And you are not an advocate for adultery-free marriages, else you would not have participated in an affair.

Isn't this really your version of revenge? To make sure the married man, AND his wife, pay for yours and the MM's hurtful, devistating and very poor decision to have an affair?

And if it isn't, and it's a action of conscience by you to expose him, then why did you wait until AFTER the affair ended?

Lets be honest here. You hurt and you want to make sure he, AND she, does too.

I can tell you that unfortuntely your actions in exposing him are quite typical of an affair partner that wants revenge, and not interested in the greater good.

Jo

<small>[ November 26, 2004, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

You know maybe Jojo did expose for the wrong reasons out of pain. But come on, are only BS's allowed to have pain, and how many BS's have exposed for the wrong reasons?

She is a former WS, and maybe not by her own doing, but a former WS, and a fellow human being in pain because of infidelity.

There are many BS's on here whose spouses are FWS not because of their own doing, but because of an act of God perhaps.

She is entitled to her pain, to her anger, and also to help and a path home, just like anyone else.

She wouldn't be here in less she wanted to find a way to end her pain and restore her marriage.

She needs help, and support and a little bit of kindness right now, just like every one else who has lost their way.

Right now she is angry and hurt and needing to blame OM, so what. In time she will have all the self hate and self blame she can handle. Just like all the other FWS and FOW's.

Jojo, stick around and get the help you need. Your skin is going to have to be a bit thick here, but you are up to it, aren't you? You had to have known when you logged on that it would not be an easy ride, and that you would be challenged.

There are a lot of posters here who have been in your shoes even if they are quiet at times.

Kiwi is one, she will help you if you let her.

Thanks Weaver, good post but too late, she's gone. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jojo1932:
<strong> Orchid,

This is exactly what I mean...to even reply to anyone on this site with the following message

"A man can stray but the girl drops her own clothing unless she is raped."

is not "truth" or "reality", it is insensitivity and self-righteousness.....

Of course I feel bad about everything, I was just trying to get some insight as to why I was carrying all the blame, an not the MM.

Try to be more open minded, when responding to posts. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">jojo,

Balance your thoughts and comments and maybe you will see the entire picture clearer.

Your statement above: "Of course I feel bad about everything, I was just trying to get some insight as to why I was carrying all the blame, an not the MM."

This statement shows you still are not getting it. Take a look at how you describe feeling bad about 'everything' and carrying 'all' the blame and not the MM. No one said that, yet your interpretation spins it as if you were given all the blame. This is quite typical from the OP/WS who still feel it is 'all about them'. Well it isn't.

Read my comments again about how all bear some responsiblity for the demise of the M. Some bear greater responsibility for taking it to the next level (continuation of the A).

See the whole picture jojo1932...... just like your family probably had to.

Are you offended or think these comments are too strong for a WS/OW to hear? They are no stronger than the hurt that was past during the A. At the very least you s/b glad someone is even taking the time to share these thoughts with you. There still is a lot for you to learn and I know you can. I am not saying I know it all for I don't. Still I certainly have seen my share of WS, xWs and recovered spouses enough to know where a person may reside in their personal recovery stage.

Just so you know, I don't like to waste my time on someone who doesn't get it. I would like to think all this time and effort was not wasted. That though is up to you.

take care,
L.

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Weaver: You know maybe Jojo did expose for the wrong reasons out of pain. But come on, are only BS's allowed to have pain, and how many BS's have exposed for the wrong reasons?

She is a former WS, and maybe not by her own doing, but a former WS, and a fellow human being in pain because of infidelity.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Weaver, I have a lot of respect for you and understand your stance. However, jojo's post reflects to me that she is out to justify the A not learn from this mistake. She still uses the 'everything' and 'all' verbage that a WS/OP normally use to distort the facts.

For that reason and a few others, I posted as I did. Being patient and understanding has it's place. It does no good to give that kind of time and effort to someone bent on keeping their head in the fog. Right now, that is where jojo is whether she realizes it or not.

If you take a look you will find that there is not much said about how this A affected her family nor how her BS is taking it. She shows that since she had a decent convo w/the OM's BS, she has been absolved. Hockey puck!

She may be a victim but she is not guilt free. While she should not carry all the blame, she is not blameless. As Resillient said, it seems more like a revenge driven spirit than a remorseful recovered one.

This is not true of all WS or even Xws who post here. In the past, when this has happened it was the xws who were the harder posters. They knew the games that c/b played and knew how to recognize it and nip it in the bud.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Weaver: There are many BS's on here whose spouses are FWS not because of their own doing, but because of an act of God perhaps.

She is entitled to her pain, to her anger, and also to help and a path home, just like anyone else.

She wouldn't be here in less she wanted to find a way to end her pain and restore her marriage..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: She is entitled to her pain and she is also in control of fixing it or prolonging it. Is she here to restore her M and end her pain? I sure would like to think so and maybe deep down inside she does but that is not what she is showing. I think you can see that.

That is why I have taken the time to post. If deep down her motives are good, then she needs to bring it to the top. She needs to get off her high horse with the 'everything and all' attitude and be more reasonable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> Weaver: She needs help, and support and a little bit of kindness right now, just like every one else who has lost their way.

Right now she is angry and hurt and needing to blame OM, so what. In time she will have all the self hate and self blame she can handle. Just like all the other FWS and FOW's..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: She does need help. Do you think she is ready to accept it? Until she is, the best of help and intentions could have the effect of spitting in the wind. Just ask others here. We have seen it before. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Weaver, you are a good poster and have helped many. These tough talks are very hard t/d. If anything less was said, it would water down the severity of the A. It would make the A not look as damaging and the fog would be thicker out there in more places. You and I know better. Facing reality is a requirement for recovery. Denial and passing the buck is not productive. Enabling the A comes in many forms. We need to be alert to recognize when it comes our way.

I am not angry at jojo. There's no need for me to be so. Letting her displace reality is not healthy here. Hence the reason for this thread. I hope in time she does take on a better attitude and perspective. A lot w/b gained to her benefit and her family when she does so. We know she has it in her. It is now up to her.

JMHO,
L.

Originally posted by jojo1932 (On her other thread):
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> jojo1932: I was directed to the MarriageBuilders site by my sister, who is trying to help me figure out why I strayed from my spouse, and is helping me to rebuild my marriage.

She said this site was very open and that people were supportive and would listen...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: I am responding to your post out of respect for you. It certainly appears that you did not like what I posted. You are entitled to that opinion and no hard feelings.

It was good that your sister directed you here. This is a marriagebuilders site and the comments were made with that purpose in mind. Whether you can see it or not, the comments made were in the spirit of helping you, not berating you. Maybe one day, you will appreciate that.

Regardless of my personal opinion and comments, you can read the concepts, books and info here. If you wish, I stop posting to your comments and then you are free to continue posting here. That has been done by others before. Not often but can and will be done again in the spirit of helping.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> jojo1932: Apparantley, because I strayed on my own spouse, I am not getting the "listening ear" that I was looking for, I am only getting criticism (from most)..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Your comment is not accurate. You did get a listening ear and you received some comments both positive and negative. You did receive criticism, constructive criticism. No sugar coating and definitely pro M. It w/b difficult to find support for any A here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> jojo1932: I appreciate all of those who did try to help me gain a perspective on the whole situation.....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: That's good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> jojo1932: And for those of you who criticized me, I would advise not to judge others, especially given the nature of this site......</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Wasn't judging. Used the info you provided and responded so you could see how you were coming across. Not many would take the time to do so. On the other hand, not 'all' will appreciate it right away. Please don't walk away with the wrong impression. That happens way too much as it is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> jojo1932: There is NO ONE person in the world who can predict the outcome of their future lives and relationships...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Of course not. No one ever claimed to. Not sure why you came to this conclusion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> jojo1932: I felt bad enough about the whole situation to begin with, but now, after having been on this site for a few weeks, I feel worse.....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Now this comment shows progress. Not because you feel bad but because you show you do have some remorse. Just want it t/b for the right reasons so that it will stick with you.

As for the feeling bad part, that's what suppose to happen. This is part of the recovery stage. Ask for the input of Xws' here. Please don't just take my word for it. I am only a BS.

While you may feel bad for a while, you will also learn how to cope on getting better. You would benefit and recover quicker with the help of family members who care for you with the true definition of love.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> jojo1932: I expect I will try some professional counselling, where they are expected to not pass judgement on individuals...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Good. Remember that they don't sugar coat their words either. Again, I didn't pass judgement. I can't judge....why? Because I am not empowered to carry out the sentence. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong> jojo1932: Good luck to all of those who are trying to deal with their situations </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: It is good that you wish all well. I hope you do also in your journey.

L.

<small>[ November 27, 2004, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Orchid,

Sometimes I think that people are scared away when they are met with such brutal honesty right at the beginning.

For someone who has done something as horrible as forsaking their own children and husband for the false love of another, it might be too hard to take responsibility at first.

It sounded like Jojo needs to get over her hurt and anger at the OM before she can deal with what she herself as done. Or maybe she needs to blame him because blaming herself would destroy her at this point.

And sometimes I wish their wasn't the need to blame anyone at all, just the evil entity that infidelity is. Of course you are right, sooner or later someone has to take responsibility or it is destined to repeat itself, or to just continue unchallenged.

I know of your kindness and desire to help all who want help Orchid but new posters don't, so they may see it as a bashing.

And I agree with Jojo, their have been a lot of posts where the OW/WW is given far too much negative credit for affairs on this board. Maybe that is because women are more vocal on this board than men are. Maybe that is the reason we don't see alot of OM/MM bashing going on. Their have been threads lately that have been downright nasty in this respect, one I was trying to find but the mods must have deleted it. Maybe Jojo was refering to that.

Anyway like you Orchid, I hope she finds the help she needs, when she is ready to accept it. Hopefully it will be here and with a good IC.

My dear Weaver,

I truly value your opinion. Seen several instances where an OP/WS comes on with their A guns drawn and not realize that type of attitude is not tolerated in all places by all people.

Sad but in time, they will learn. Just a matter of when. The one I feel for right now is her sister. I don't know who she is but hope she can understand that working the prevalent issues are key to helping her sister have true sucess. After all, how far do you think a person who is still a wS at heart get on an MB board? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

If I was pegged as the bad guy....well then so be it. Nothing new to me. After all..... you should have seen what PBR tried t/d and I'm still here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I suspect jojo will give herself the time to step back and see what she is really doing to herself and then make the changes she so desparately needs.

She is brave t/b vocal and with that goes the territory of hearing responses. Some choose to say and run away.....some choose to say and listen. Time will tell which one jojo chooses to be.

The board w/b here when she makes the right choice. The other board is already filled with those who feel the A wronged them and they are not t/b blamed as much as the MM or even at all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

She is not the first to react this way and will not be the last. I am neither the 1st to respond as such and won't be the last...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> So life goes on......

Time is a friend of the truth and an enemy to all that is wrong. Patience is a hard virtue to cultivate. I'm still working on it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks for your effort.

L.

I was going to start my post with "I'm not going to give advice, just my opinion" or "I'll leave that up to the more experienced MB'ers..."

Well, I'm not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I am going to point out, jojo, that you are one spitfire of a woman! Hey, that's good. You feel.

You're also here, on MB. A good start. "Put one foot in front of the other." OK. Don't sing the next line, but, it's a step. You know, 'can't run without walking.'

You're also very defensive. You know what? Good too. You're actually thinking.

Go ahead, BS': take your 2x4's out to me. Pep, you can be first, my dear. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I say this, because now her A is brought to the concious world of jojo's being. Sure, maybe, according to jojo, but it's rearing, now isn't it? All of these emotions that were being felt during your A, all filtered into the excitement of whatever. Where do these feelings go? It's not a stop/start switch. Let 'em go, jojo. Just start directing them in the right place.

Speaking of directing...Jojo...stop trying to point--didn't your mother ever tell you, "It's not polite to point?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Blame vs. choice. Don't confuse the two. Does it matter who caused the mishap? Well, yeah, sorta. That's up for argument and a complete thread in it's own. But the "why" behind the mishap is key. Tuck that in your mental rolodex under "I", for when you are ready to say, "I'm sorry." Choice? Did the OP force you into this? Did your H force you into this? Can I answer this for you?

Perception vs. free will. Parallels the above. However, it is your perception--the way you are seeing things now--that you have your armour on. I do admire your fire. It shows life. But your perception of how the man walks away unscathed and no blame placed on him is just not true. It's another way of putting your defenses up. (And if you were a man, I truly believe you would be saying how a woman walks away unscathed.) Free will? What a gift that we have, huh? To be able to actually think and make a choice. Regardless if it's perceived to be right or wrong. We're in control, right? Free will to be selfish. Who cares how others perceive us, we'll just place the blame on them. It's their choice whether they choose to like it or not.

Reasons vs. excuses. Just because there may be a reason for doing something, it does not make it right or wrong. An excuse? Just another name for lying.

(Yes. I'm going somewhere with this.)

One more, though...Moxie vs. humility. Do you have the courage to be meek and admit you were wrong? You. I'm not talking about anyone else here. You. Jojo.

What am I getting at?

Accountability.

Forget about what everyone is telling you. Me too. Do you want your M? Do you want your H? Do you want to rebuild? Do you want to be honest with yourself? Do you want trust and be trusted? Then admit to your mistakes. For every choice you make, there will be a consequence. For every action you take, there is a reaction.

I just reread this and it's a "little" disorganized, but the morale--or is it moral?--of the story is: there is perception and truth. Sometimes they are one and the same. But "finger-pointing"--even if it was a "point" you were trying to make--speaks volumes in avoiding the real issue and being honest with yourself. You caused this through your free will and choices you made. Now, what are you going to do about it?

I rereread my post and:

Orchid, I didn't mean to threadjack you. Really. I just thought I could help in my own OM way. (Hope things are going well for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Jojo. I'm not going to say sorry for sounding harsh. It took harshness for me to snap out of this life I made of lies. What was good for me, may not be for you. I wanted, though, to point some things out to you. To see if I could help in any way.

Each, in our own ways, we are here for each other. For support. For criticism. But all ultimately, to rebuild our marriages, and at the least, ourselves. (Read WAT's thread from today.)

You remind me of me. Maybe that's why I felt "compelled" to post to you. I'll leave it at that for now. But, we are all trying to achieve the same thing here. OK? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />