She called OM last night and we have been arguing and talking now for about 3 hrs. She told me she is done and I told her if she left she might as well leave for good. Not sure right now what she is going to do.

edited to change subject from "Ok, FWW is now a WW again" to "911! FWW is now a WW again."

<small>[ November 28, 2004, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: marriage is forever? ]</small>

The question is not if she is done but r u done tolerating her continued disrespect? Yep, contact is a disrespectful act.

Why not put her out before her time?

L.

That's what I told her. Her contact with OM shows a total lack of respect for my feelings. I have told her it hurts me and makes me angry, and since she knows that and does it anyway, she shows she doesn't care about my feelings.

She decided to stay, but I wonder how much more I can take. I don't know if the next time she does this if I will be able to handle it. I know that right now she is playing me. I have told her how I want this M to work out, and how I want her to have NC with OM, and be honest with me, but yet she continues to disrespect my feelings, and yet I don't hold her to any consequences. It's funny, she says that I am controlling but yet she is playing with my emotions. How do you learn to enforce those boundries that you set? I have told her that I won't stand for any contact with OM. I refuse to live in a M with another man in the middle, but yet what do I do when she drags him right back in? I allow it. I hope I get a backbone soon, because the pain I go through every time is not deserved.

MIF?

MIF- I am in the same shoes. Ironically I look at your time line an Dday is about the same. I "busted" my WW calling OM a week ago. She was honest w/me and answeredwhen I asked. She said she went a month without calling him but it hurt and she was getting depressed, blah,blah. Hello! That's what withdrawal does to you. Anyway, I was, at least, happy(?) she was honest w/me. But I asked myself this question: Is a phonecall enough for me to give up now and end my R w/my W but also my family (son)? Answer was, no.

I'll give her another chance, one more. I was frantic right away. Came on the board here and found out most WW break NC at least 1, more like 2-3 times before they get the OM out of their system. It all depends on the depth of the A.

Weigh all those factors before rendering your decision.

bear, I agree. A phone call is not enough at this point. This is the 4th time that my WW has broken NC with OM. I just don't know how much I am willing to put up with and by my lack of sticking my grounds am I being a patsy?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by marriage is forever?:
<strong> She called OM last night and we have been arguing and talking now for about 3 hrs. She told me she is done and I told her if she left she might as well leave for good. Not sure right now what she is going to do. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sigh !!!! I am sorry for your pain dude. I think you should go back and read your post before the "recovery" and you will see this all like the movie groundhog day. I really hate to say this, but each time you take back the WW with NO CONSEQUENCES, you lose respect each time. Your WW knows that she can get her "fix" and you will take her back. I can even see this in your post when you say "Not sure what she is gonna do". YOu know what you need man; YOU NEED A 2 X 4 here, but unfortunately mine has been retired and I can't give you one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . I am not making light of your situation, but I think you are destined to live your past UNTILL you learn from it. YOu should be ready and FULLY expect to be betrayed again. When you start having some self respect and dignity and NOT accpet your wife's continued betrayals, deceit, and lying then maybe you yourself will come out of this fog. I only wish the best for you, but reading your posts takes me out of "retirement" and now I am probably gonna get a citation from the "2 X 4" police. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Good luck, my friend. I hope that you someday can find enough love for yourself to STOP letting someone do this to you. Would you ever LET your daughter accept this kind of behavior from a man she was with??? I know that you want to be married at all costs. Your wife must be some incredibly beautiful, compassionate, loving, giving, vibrant woman for you to BETRAY yourself like this time and time again. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Good luck

LM

Lemonman,

I instantly thought of my thread and your post "pre-recovery" when this happened. I wasn't sure if you would come out of retirement or not, but alas you have. You sir, are correct, I know that intellectually, however my emotions won't let me accept that fact, for whatever reason. I know there will come a time when my intellectual side takes over, I just hope it's sooner rather than later.

Thanks for the reply, and I'll defend you from the 2x4 police. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

MIF?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by marriage is forever?:
<strong> Lemonman,

I instantly thought of my thread and your post "pre-recovery" when this happened. I wasn't sure if you would come out of retirement or not, but alas you have. You sir, are correct, I know that intellectually, however my emotions won't let me accept that fact, for whatever reason. I know there will come a time when my intellectual side takes over, I just hope it's sooner rather than later.

Thanks for the reply, and I'll defend you from the 2x4 police. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

MIF?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I know that emotions can be so hard to overcome. Trust me, I have been there. I do NOT judge you. I hope that you soehow can come to grips with all of this and do what is right for you. I know it is hard. I am rooting for you nonetheless. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks, it's nice to know I have someone rooting for me.

MIF?

<<<<<MIF>>>>>>>
Hey buddie...sounds like you are having a rough Saturday. I had one thought, have you ever done anything to show her that you are serious about the NC? For example...make her know you are serious, like you saying you'll leave if she does it again. You go to a hotel, or stay with a friend, or move into another room...?

The reason I ask is because my H said part of the reason he decided to start recovery process on the same day your wife tired NC again, was because it felt "real". He knew that if he didn't commit to recovery then I was going to leave. I'd been trying so hard for 4 months before then, gave a couple of ultimatiums, all failed. But then when he was out of his element...in a different state...and, I don't know.

I'm wondering if you can make her "feel" how serious you are about the NC, that she will know she can't get away with it again. I'm wondering if in the back of her mind if she thinks, "oh, he'll just keep taking me back" so then when she feels weak on calling OM, it allows her to.

H and I start MC this Thursday. Will she do MC with you?

You are a great man and a great husband, you don't deserve this disrespect. Don't loose sight of how great of a person you are. Try and guard your heart a little longer in case she does this again. That hurt is so awful...

You and your wife are in my prayers...and we have a friend at work that has a prayer group that usually has some great results...I'm going to ask him Monday to include you and your wife in that as well. It's time that we give it to the Man upstairs.

It's almost scary how predictable WS's are...i'd like to give you the view of an affair from a WS perspective...

Your wife is fighting an addiction...one that clouds her view of life and brings out the most selfish behavior imaginable, she's probably telling herself (and maybe you) things like....I want to think about 'me' for a change, the OM makes me happy and I deserve my happiness, and if I am with OM I will be sooo happy that my kids will adjust just fine...unfortunatly MIF, your feelings and how this is hurting you don't really make it through her fog at this point...

Your wife has no 'real' motivation to drop contact with the OM right now...she has suffered barely any consequeces for all the breaks in NC,,she knows if she 'slips up' and contacts, that you will not stick to your vow that 'one more contact' will be the dealbreaker...

I can tell you this MIF, if no consequences for this last backslide of hers come forth..and soon...you will be living groundhog day over and over again...I'm not saying you should leave your wife, but you have to do something to open her eyes to reality...exposure to her family for one...I know that would have been a massive wake up call for me while in the A...the A looks all sweet and fuzzy to a WS until they are forced to look at it as it really is through the eyes of people you respect..I think if you followed through on some of your claims that you 'won't put up with her crap' she may wake up and realize she really could lose her family ... lose her kids because of her relationship with this OM, you guys have a good shot at beating this...

If you're not ready to force her hand with separation, etc...why not at least let her think you are...look up some info on separation and custody in your state on the internet..print it out and accidently leave the paper in the printer (or somewhere else she'll be sure to see it)...make like you are preparing for the inevitable (that she will contact OM again, if not see him next time)..maybe you can get through to her before it's too late...

I'm pulling for you too MIF..good luck!

<small>[ November 28, 2004, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: dreamcatcher ]</small>

MIF- I must agree with LWIT: she must understand the results of breaking NC. Read my sig line - look at how many times I asked, he consented, and broke it anyway.

It wasn't until one morning, it HIT me: I am better than this! I knew, that morning, that no matter the pain, no matter the effort involved, no matter what - I could do without him - if having him in my life meant having her in it too. I had told him and told him, to no avail, prior to that morning. WHEN I ACTED ON IT is when it became real to him.

I left home twice - not a true plan B - and those two hiatises cost me a bundle, let me tell you - but he got to have a small taste of the reality of being alone and on his own. He almost truly committed to 'us'. But he really made the turn-around when I asked - no told - him to leave and live on his own.

But I must also be frank here. I also told him I was getting to where I didn't love him any more, and, sadly, I really meant it. The prospect of voluntarily living with anyone who could treat me with such absolute disregard, lack of respect, thoughlessness, self-interest - that's when my own self-pitying fog lifted: these are not the acts of a loving person, and I don't want a non-loving person to share my life - this is definitely something I can do without.

I refused argument, I refused debate, I refused discussion. (hard for me to do)

It became real to both of us.

It's been a very short time, since, but one thing is entirely true for me: these boundaries are unconditional, and even if HE doesn't know it, I do. That gives me peace and strength.
I do still love him, I do still have hope and he is making strides in giving me hope, too, but now I have strength...

...just in case.

IF you are in plan A..then you do plan A with a pre-dertimined end date....

with the full awareness that there is or may be contact...
and you do plan A inspite of and regardless of this issue...

plan a is ALL about seperating the fact from fantasy...
and the WS from the OP...

exposure is key

boundaries are key....meaning you do not watch the kids so she can go out with him...

power-struggling what she is trying to hide is futile...

and do not hand her a loaded weapon...the old 'you're controlling me speach... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

you speak you peace..
your expectations....

your inability to have a third party in YOUR life.....

you also need to seek legal counsel without telling her this...to pursue legal blocks and stipulation from her exposing your children to the OP...

If you are in plan a ...then you need to not powerstuggle and make false threats and promises...

for her words to have meaning...so must yours...

you need to pick a date for plan b...
do the best plan a you are capable of...

is it fair...
nope
is it easy
nope
is it any type of garuntee
nope

you have young children...and you must secure their safety...not start a revolving parent door...
mommy goes
daddy goes
mommy goes
etc

you make the home chaos
you fill that home with love and laughter and draw her to it....
you do this first before knee jerk I'm outta here...

ARK

MIF?

Protect yourself legally and financially NOW. The legal system is still biased towards women, including WW. If you wait until she is the one that throws the first legal nukes of separation/divorce, you may end up at a huge disadvantage. Seek legal counsel and start preparing a contingency divorce plan that you will execute if your WW is not willing to end her affair.

I would suggest that you consider contacting the OM and telling him that he better get ready to assume the role of H and step-father of 3 children because you are getting fed up with the situation and that you are no longer afraid of divorce. Chances are that he is like most OM's who seek married women to have sex with but never to become involved in a committed relationship with them. He will probably sh** in his pants at the prospect of having to assume your role, and will drop your WW like a dead rat. This will be the acid test for him and its time for him to prove what he is made of.

You have to conquer any fear you have of a potential divorce because it can happen whether you like it or not. Does this mean I'm encouraging you divorce your WW? NO but to make peace with that very likely possibility.

"There is always hope. Only because it's the one thing that no one has figured out how to kill yet." TMCM - that encapsulates this whole experience!

MIF?- I found that each time I was ready to "chuck it", I could come here. Then, I'd make a plan, and continue to stay vigilant. The planning forced me into waiting a little longer, being a little better, looking a little closer at me, at him, at life...

Everyone here says "TIME", but they don't really tell you how much or what to actually do with it (can't, really, because you have your own demons to exorcise and that makes your plan unique.) Planning and improving yourself is what you do with it. As you plan A - you are making yourself into a better spouse for someone, as your self-esteem improves, you are getting closer to knowing you can go on, if needed, without her - OR you will be a better spouse for her when her head clears and she devotes herself to you and the efforts needed to correct your marriage issues with you, too.

It's really ingenious, this whole 'plan' thing. Because, if you follow it, no matter what comes at you, you are better person and better able and better prepared. It's not about 'kissing butt' (I made the same mistake, became a doormat for a while) - it's about BEING a better person... When you Plan A and metamorph into a better person, it's her loss and your gain if she never sees it until after you plan B or D. If you Plan A with sincerity, it's your gain and her gain if you rebuild.

You see --- you win no matter what.

You do it all for yourself - she just may end up benefiting from it, too....

At least, that's how I see it, now, and that may change someday, too. But for now, this interpretation gives me enormous peace.

LWIT
Thanks for the kind words and I would appreciate the prayers. We have been in MC and go back on 12-6. You're right, I have set boundries and let her cross them and I haven't enforced them. I did call an attorney on 11-12 when she spent two nights in a hotel with OM, but ended up cancelling the appointment the morning I was supposed to go. My original thought was to keep it and get the ball rolling so that should she falter again I would be that much closer to ending this ordeal. Instead, we had a MC appointment that morning so I cancelled my appt with attorney and decided to give it one more chance. Well, here we are 2 weeks later and right back to square one. I guess I only wasted 2 weeks at this point. I just don't want to be doing this months down the road. I'd hate to look back 6 months down the road and realize we are in the same old rut when I could have been done with this and moved on with my life.

dreamcatcher,

I have exposed this to everyone. Her family, my family, OM's parents (he had no significant other, but lives with his mom and dad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) The funny thing is she doesn't think she is in withdrawl. She says that she has no emotions for anyone, me, OM anyone. She doesn't know why she called him though. I'm reading Surviving An Affair and got to the part where he talks about withdrawl, I read that section to her last night because it described what we/she was going through and she just told me that she is not going through w/d. Yet, she was suicidal, telling me that she did not deserve me or OM, and she was bad for our children...

As far as separation, I am not quite ready. However I am getting closer and closer. I know I don't want to go through this over and over again. You are right, right now this is a Groundhog Day situation. Like I told LM above, intellectually I know I need to take action but emotionally I am not quite ready to.

restarting,

That, I guess, is what I am waiting for. One day for it to HIT me and I do something. I am getting closer and closer I can feel it.

Ark^^,

You are right. I had set a date of 1-22 (4 months from DDay), but really don't think I can make it that long if she continues contact with OM. I have told her I refuse to live in a M with 3 people.


-------

Well, as I was typing this she got upset with me. I have told her from the start of this that you don't go outside the marriage to fix problems within the marriage. She insinuated that I was doing just that. Kinda implying that I was having an EA with this message board. We had it out, all kinds of fireworks flew around this house and she threw things, threatened to hit me with her shoe as she was putting them on. Implied she was going to commit suiced, so I layed down in front of the vehicle and told her she would have to run me over if she wanted leave to go harm herself. She came back in and we argued some more. She settled down a bit, and cleaned up the mess she made in the kitchen and just left. I don't think she will harm herself but have no idea where she will end up. I would imagine she will call OM and may even go visit him even though he is 4 hrs away.

How do we get past the last 10 years? I mean, we have not treated each other very good over the years, and have not had a happy marriage. I have appolgized over and over and over again for my mistakes. She has told me over the years what she wanted from me and I have let it go in one ear and out the other. She had asked me what I wanted from her but I could never answer that. She says she has let all that go, since NOW I finally let it sink in as to what she wants, and know what I want, but every time we argue she beats me over the head with the last 10 years. I continue to appolgize for it, and tell her I can't do anything to change it, if I could I would, but now I finally do know and am working on it. Every time I think things are going okay with us, she breaks the NC and stabs me in the heart. We go to the MC on 12-6 and I am going to ask to talk about the previous 10 years so maybe he can help her/us get over them. That is if my WW still wants to go.

MIF?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

MIF?

I don't want to leave you with the impression to give up on your WW but to help you to emotionally prepare yourself [as much as is humanly possible] no matter what happens to your marriage. Also consider starting new activities and meeting new people to help you build a life that is not WW centered. I cannot stress how important this is for your own wellbeing and while the benefits would be for YOU, don't be surprised if your WW takes notice. Very often when a BS stops chasing the WS, and starts moving on in the opposite direction, the WS stops, looks back at the BS and starts chasing the BS. Will this happen in your situation? Who knows, but if it doesn't, you are still going to be better off doing so.

Maybe you are right. Mw WW tells me she wants to work on this M, but her actions say otherwise. I have told her time and again that I want the truth/honesty from her, NC with OM and her to back her words up with actions. So far she has done none of the above. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

MIF?

MIF?

Stop letting yourself get goaded into her drama, and detach from it NOW. If she doesn't want to participate in your life, then so be it. Stop chasing your WW and start chasing your personal recovery.

TMCM

TMCM,

That's good advice, I hope I can take it.

MIF?