Revised comment: I changed the thread title due to type of responses received. ML, please read and reconsider the comments here. We have seen a lot and been down this path before.

Remember the motto: Don't make any life changing decisions while in an emotional state of mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well this may not be life changing for you as much as it is for those who come here really looking for help and support. You have done that and more. You and I along with several others have been called a lot of things and yet look how beautiful we look - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> w/that thick skin and all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

A while back several long time MBers felt it was their time to go. There had been a lot of changes on the board and while their core concepts remained and this is a voluntary site, it just got too hard. They were also willing to leave because there was some that were 'groomed' so to speak to help others. You were one of those. Yep, you are one of those. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Think about it, ML. ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Aloha,
L.

Original post by Orchid as was addressed to jojo1932:
I am posting this thread with a question because I do not want to disrupt jojo's other thread. Seen this kinda stuff before and well..... decided to put it on a separate thread.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by jojo1932:
<strong> ....This sounds like the "unintelligent" remarks of a woman whose husband strayed on her, (Jeez, I wonder why?) </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">jojo,

Praytell, what benefit comes from a response like that? Instead of casting doubt on the ML's character, your response makes one wonder is this how jojo1932 reacts when she hears something she doesn't like?

Maybe venting is good for you and some is good but is it really necessary to pick on another to help you vent like this? If my kid did this, he'd get a good talking to. Not what I would consider adult behavior....in fach not acceptable childish behavior.... in my books.

L.

<small>[ November 27, 2004, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Hey Orchid, I appreciate your defense very much, but I am going to take my leave. When it becomes ok to personally attack a BS but not ok to be straightforward with a remorseless WS, it is time for me to take my leave.

I will repost my response to finger wagging Dewt who chastised MB members for "nasty, judgemental posts" [referring to me] after saying nothing about Jojo's very vicious attack: [anything goes when it is done by a WS, it seems]

Dewt wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In the last year I've seen MB lose more than a few members because of judgemental and nasty posting. Too bad.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My response:

This is very true. I have seen many good people, mostly BS', flee this forum because they were attacked for not mollycoddling an errant WS. I have seen this happen over and over again. And when they do say something to them, they are completely dismissed as being "biased" because of their "pain."

About the only thing that has become taboo on this site is confronting a remorseless WS. That brings out the compassion mongers in droves. But where are they when a BS - the VICTIM - is attacked? Nowhere to be found. It is a clear double standard. It is ok to say the most vile, insulting thing to a BS, but God forbid anyone is straightforward to a WS.

I think I don't fit in around here anymore. I will never be able to sit idly by while a vicious WS attacks BSes as "deserving" to be cheated on or condemns others for "judging" that adultery is wrong. I will never ever fit in a world where saying something is evil is WORSE THAN committing that evil. I will never fit in with people like that.

I think that about does it for me and it is time for me to move on. I wish you all the best."

Did Jojo come here to stir up trouble and spread her pain?

I was wrong Orchid, you were right. I have much to learn.

Melody,

If you go it will break my heart. You give me hope, strength and make me believe that good people really do exist. You mean so much to me.

weav
------------------------------------------------
I wish you we would have just run Jojo off the board right away if her intentions were not pure. I guess this is what the "vets" have a feel for and nip in the bud right at the beginning in order to avoid this type of crap.

I am so sorry Orchid, you knew better, I did not.

May I pour some gasoline on this fire?

IMO the only person I see attacked in the thread in question is ML. First by a WW who is still a walking fog machine. Then by a WH (I would put an F there but I read in this particular case an F does not yet apply) who thinks all WSs should be handled with kid gloves.

Reminds me of a month or so ago where one BW wrote what she thought WS’s really deserve (metaphorically, mind you) and was severely attacked. But in the same thread a (F?)WW wanted to literally “crucify” anyone who got between her and whomever she thought was an abuser of any kind – and no one said anything to her at all. Kid gloves again?

The double standard operating here is perhaps understandable but still weird, if you ask me.

I have a feeling over the past year or so more BS’s have been driven away from MB than WS’s. Just a feeling – I could be wrong.

Like they say in AA, take what you need and leave the rest.

T

Melody,

I have noticed that there seems to be something wrong also.

There has been something strange going on for quite a while now. I noticed the shift when WSs started posting...and comparing their OP...and remembering the good times that they had! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I was so freaked out that I checked to make sure that I hadn't stumbled into that "other" website. I think that is when the tide began to turn.

For awhile there, I thought that the forum would never return to "marriagebuilding" and would forever stay on "memories of an affair". There are so many WW/WH....turned BW/BH....and suddenly it becomes the issue that they are NOW the BS and victim...afterall, they have been betrayed last. Trying to keep all those initials in order...and their claim to victimhood just gives me a headache so I don't involve myself.

Please don't let a group of WS...FWS...now BS...run you off. You do have a lot to offer to people here....especially when the subject of alcoholism comes up. You are a valuable asset to the board.

JMHO
committed

ML and friends,

This board has taken a beating. Seems to come around every so often. We shouldn't be surprised this kind of things happen considering the fact of how much hurt passes through these posts every day.

As for thinking of leaving, that is always an option. No one is forced to stay here. I know, I have tried. Don't believe it? Well I have but I was better at plan B than at leaving MB. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

ML, Commited and the others are right, you have a lot to offer. Esp when helping those with AA issues. You are the one that comes to mind (along with BR who also doesn't post much were anymore). Each of us bring a type of support that is unique and when we help in a group effort, the results are staggering.

I don't expect every person to appreciate or acknowledge the results but even if one person is benefitted, it is worth all those hours of typing even to the wee hours of the night. Didn't you know that's why I moved to HI so I can post later? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Think about it again ML. We can't force you to stay or leave but we'd love for you to stay. ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Aloha,
L.

ML, I wonder if the analogy between affairs and addictions is carried a bit to far sometimes. In your posts I see the same kind of attitudes I see in AA/NA meetings when an early stage-recovering alcoholic/user is not quite on board yet. There is no mollycoddling of anyone in those meetings.

I only attended two-dozen or so open AA/NA meetings with my brother when he was first drying out. So I am not an AA expert. But I do attend a lot of Al-Anon meetings and the same general attitude is present there. Not much poor you – a lot of get a grip on your own life.

So maybe the same approach just does not work with WSs early in recovery. I dunno. Just a thought – maybe the analogy is not as close as a good AA member can use effectively after all.

T

I think about what happened here tonight and I see a poster who was able to come on and cause major disention between those who are basically really united in a common goal. That troubles me and makes me question their sincerety.

I didn't see it at first, but I saw it soon after and thought that at the very least, someone who is looking for help from a board of people who have devoted countless hours and wisdom to help others at no monitary profit to themselves, should show a little respect. When Jojo started disrespecting Melody, when Mel is deserving of respect for her amount of time on this board alone, it gives me pause.

However Mel is an expert at being able to see the "phonies" from those truely seeking guidance and feedback, as is Orchid. And to so casually disrespect that ticks me off. Up until then I did feel a bit sorry for Jojo. But that has just been blown right out the window by her own words.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
Did Jojo come here to stir up trouble and spread her pain?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Weaver, JoJo has a total 18 posts. I made one post directly to her. My post said:

Are you here to marriage build? Are you interested in falling in love with your husband?

.... that was it !!! and know what?

JoJo never answered my questions.

Yet, her hateful remarks to Mel were tolerated because it's no longer acceptable to play hardball with a WW and ask a WW difficult questions.

Marriage Building???

Perhaps not.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> However Mel is an expert at being able to see the "phonies" from those truely seeking guidance and feedback, as is Orchid. And to so casually disrespect that ticks me off. Up until then I did feel a bit sorry for Jojo. But that has just been blown right out the window by her own words.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It didn't take long for me to come to that conclusion either...especially with this comment...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by jojo1932:
....This sounds like the "unintelligent" remarks of a woman whose husband strayed on her, (Jeez, I wonder why?)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That was downright ugly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Maybe jojo isn't ready for marriagebuilders ...period. It sounds like she is still driving a blame train.


AND...it was spoken like a true WS...who has ZERO remorse for their actions.

Sad...sad...sad... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

committed

Ditto Pep,

The attack on Melody was vicious and uncalled for. If I had my druthers, I would follow Melody's sig line. The easiest defense when you are WRONG is to deflect your own shame onto someone else.

I think the flag went up when this person jojo made the comment of:

"stop busting on the "other woman",remember SHE became the Other Woman because of your Man"

on artstudents thread.

That was a sign for me that this persons' validity was in question.No one who is here for true insight and support starts off with an inflammatory statement like that.Now the arguing has begun but so what? Many to most of us here are veterans or long timers,more than year.This person should NOT run anyone off.To do so is to let this person have the control over our rights and our board.

Mel,you know you won't leave.So this person is accusatory.She hasn't got a leg to stand on and has only been present here for a few weeks.You have been here years and have been as supportive as anyone.Don't let the bad apple spoil the bunch ok? If she is truly here for help,she will apologize and get on the bus.

O

<small>[ November 27, 2004, 07:11 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> I will repost my response to finger wagging Dewt who chastised MB members for "nasty, judgemental posts" [referring to me] after saying nothing about Jojo's very vicious attack: [anything goes when it is done by a WS, it seems]
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise, than for a man to hear the song of fools." Ecc 7:5

The rebuke being found in the book of proverbs, proverbs 15:1

"A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger."

and also Ephesians 4:29-32 Ephesians 4:29-32

"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."


And I did think of addressing Jojo's very vicious attack, but then I thought that there wouldn't be much point to it. Same as I believe that telling a WS they are wrong is a fruitless excersise. If they need to be told, they won't take the telling. If they don't need to be told, then what's the point except to wave the flag of righteousness? Also, I didn't think you needed defending. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Also also, since you're an old timer and a respected source of wisdom, I just kinda expect more from you.

Also, I wasn't referring directly nor soley to you. I was making a generalized statement, aimed at the board in general. Those to whom my statement was addressed will either 'get it' or not 'get it'. (refer to above paragraph)

But, since I'm being called on this, I will speak plain. Yes, Melody Lane, I think you sometimes do damage with your indignant righteousness. Am I saying you are wrong? Nope. Do I think you should leave? Nope. Not by a long shot. I read your posts and I can almost NEVER disagree with what you are saying. What I'm saying, directly to you, is that you should temper your posts with a bit of understanding that sometimes being slapped with righteousness just leaves someone with the feeling that they've been slapped. And that can drive people away. And waywards are especially vulnerable to being driven away.

I'm not saying to molly coddle them, nor handle them with kid gloves. No no no. I'm saying handle them with an understanding that they are hurt and confused and should be treated in the manner that is best going to help them get back on track. And I think that is more important than being right.

Now, granted I haven't read every post on every thread, but I have yet to see a BS get attacked for not mollycoddling a WS. Nor would I advise any betrayed to molly coddle their WS. I would advise a BS to avoid lovebusting with any disrespectful judgements, though. Same as I advise posters here. Avoid disrespectful judgements because wether the DJ is right or wrong, it's still a DJ and does not lead to the outcome that we want- which is to save marriages and preserve the unions that God has sanctified.

For the record, in no way shape or form do I condone 'romanticizing' any affairs. I just don't think that beating WS with righteous truth (however righteous) does any good.

Also, for the record, as a BS I do NOT consider myself to be a victim.

And also, I'm not against truth, nor confronting a remorseless wayward. Nor am I against confronting a BS who strays from the path of healing. I just think we should be careful and understanding when we do it, and do it in such a way as to bring the person back on track. Not drive them further away from it.

Also, I really want to apologize if you felt personally attacked by my writings. That is not my intent. I am in no way, shape or form entitled to judge or attack anybody. (check my sig)

And since I've got my Bible out, I'd like to toss these out for perusal and thought provocation:

James 1:19-20
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:

For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

James 3:17-18
"But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, [and] easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace."

Ephesians 4:32
"And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you."

Luke 6:37-38
"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

1 Peter 3:8-11
"Finally, [be ye] all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, [be] pitiful, [be] courteous:

Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it."


Now a little prayer that my formatting is all right... and...

add reply.

J

<small>[ November 27, 2004, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: dewt ]</small>

Melody,

As you know, I'm new here.
Really brand spankin' new, wading RIGHT NOW thru the thickest crap that life has to offer.

I'm up to my [censored] in pain and confusion.

So maybe, just MAYBE, then... I might be more qualified than all you old fogeys combined <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> to respond to this:


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> I think I don't fit in around here anymore. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">by saying: YES, you do.

You've helped me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And ya know what? No matter WHAT happens with my marriage, I have a pretty damn good hunch I will ALWAYS remember what some complete stranger named "Mel" did for me. Isn't that important? I, and 99.9999% of the people who come here can only aspire to do .001% of the good you have done here. I'm quite serious. My marriage may be screwed up, but I ain't stupid!

ps. saurry fer all 'dem cuss wurds! sher hope I dint 'fend no body!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Written by jojo1932:
"....This sounds like the "unintelligent" remarks of a woman whose husband strayed on her,
(Jeez, I wonder why?)"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seems jojo's real-self has now surfaced. So according to jojo, if one is not intelligent enough they deserve to be betrayed.

I have seen very little remorse in jojo's words. I have read blame and justification for her actions in her affair touting she was duped into believing the MM was leaving his wife and that's why she participated, so she is absolved.

Do we forget about the fact that she too was married? And is she not responsible for HER choices/decisions?

Where is her accountability?

<small>[ November 27, 2004, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

ML,

You getting any of this? I mean we got posters out here now giving statistics on how much support you have. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> 99.99% vs .01% (by tqt)

Hope so.... otherwise I am gonna have to ask H to make a stop over in TX on his drive back from FL. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Remember he hasn't seen his family in now going on 4 months. He c/b one high strung guy!!! LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> He isn't, quite mellow actually and anxious to get to his new home and loving family. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But for the sake of MB and our love for you, I'd make that request....if you can promise good weather while he drives through your lovely state. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Look, even Jo visited this thread.... you know what that means. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Written by O:
Look, even Jo visited this thread.... you know what that means. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THAT'S RIGHT! And if Mel does not change her mind and come back .... I'm gonna havta get a can of WASHINGTON WhoopAss out!

Don't make me go there, Mel. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Thos:
<strong>Then by a WH (I would put an F there but I read in this particular case an F does not yet apply) who thinks all WSs should be handled with kid gloves.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dylan (my FWW) just read this and very pointedly asked me if there was 'anything (I) wanted to tell her? (To her it was fairly obvious you were referring to me)

There was a very uncomfortable moment there.

For the record, I am here now as a Betrayed and am doing my absolute best to exhibit good marital behaviour and master the finer aspects of Plan A.

Five yrs ago I first registered here as a wayward.

So I have do have the unfortunate blessing of having a good understanding of both sides of this particular coin.

I, as a wayward, responded well to straight-talking, right to the point, sometimes harsh crits like Melody's. I try to ignore judgemental tones and see past them to the point. And I'm pretty good at it. Well, online anyway.

On the other hand, My W often reacts to this kind of approach as a personal attack and either gets defensive or draws away.

And right or wrong, how is that going to help save my marriage and my family?

And why are we here? To be right or to be married?

John

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by dewt:
<strong> [QUOTE]And why are we here? To be right or to be married? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent question! As a rhetoric major, I feel qualified to "pass judgment" on this remark. Some people seem to want both. Perhaps these are mutually exclusive concepts: those who always have to be right may always have trouble being married!

I am saddened that yet another of the MB Forum's excellent members is leaving on account of the words/actions of another instead of in their own time and for their own reason(s).

When I used to visit a cheater's site (not the site you're probably thinking) to gain insight into what was going on "behind the scenes" with OWs, I learned that sometimes they show up on sites such as this to CAUSE TROUBLE THAT IS SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO MAKE THE RECOVERED, HAPPY, STRONG FBS's LEAVE. And MB was near the top of the hitlist. There was a "club" of posters who would sign on at MB (with a new id and new email every time) whenever one of the MM's BW found MB.

Also, I read many of the posts at the Dr. Phil site after Mom2's and Dad2's appearances. One poster wrote that Mom2 was not kicking Dad2 to the curb because "a bunch of kooks" at a website were telling her not to. Where would that poster get that idea? Mom2 didn't mention MB on the show.

ML, please reconsider. Are you sure you're not playing into someone else's agenda? If, after reconsidering, you feel that it is BEST FOR YOU to leave MB then I will wish you well and I will continue to keep you in my prayers after you've gone.

Take care ML