...it isn't necessarily what you always what to hear. Good support doesn't involve being a syncophant. Good support doesn't necessarily mean you jump on the "band wagon". IMHO good support is honest and thoughtful. Honesty isn't about telling you what you want to hear it's about the truth! Like it or not.

You don't have to agree, you don't have to like it! Take away what you need. BUT do not disregard the supportive GIFT you are given just because it's not what you want to hear at that moment.

Personally, the direct approach doesn't bother me. I like it! What I intensely dislike is the defensiveness and overly harsh name calling that has occured here recently.

I've been here a few years now and have come to respect and admire many individuals who regularly post here. They have a wisdom that most don't have or want. Instead of saying negative things when you hear something you don't like why not just ignore it or better yet, say "thanks for the input".

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Luv your post.

Thanks for being there and helping out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Mahalo,
L.

...it isn't necessarily what you always what to hear. Good support doesn't involve being a syncophant. Good support doesn't necessarily mean you jump on the "band wagon". IMHO good support is honest and thoughtful. Honesty isn't about telling you what you want to hear it's about the truth! Like it or not.

That's the thing mgm...too many people on the site want the "support" that enables them to keep doing what they are doing.

"Support" is not intended to be enabling...especially when the behavior is wrong.

I have seen posters tell others... "I don't like your advice...you are not 'supporting' me...so do not post to me anymore".


Translation:
"If you can not tell me what I want to hear, which is that it is OK to continue in this abhorrent behavior..and that I am right in this behavior...then do not post to me anymore".

I have asked posters to put that in the title so that we can all be clear on what it is that they want...so that no one wastes their time telling them what they don' want to hear. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Sometimes, it's the really hard questions that force them to look in the mirror, and when they don't like what they see...then they become defensive. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Good Reminder post.

committed

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by committedandlovingit:
<strong> ...it isn't necessarily what you always what to hear. Good support doesn't involve being a syncophant. Good support doesn't necessarily mean you jump on the "band wagon". IMHO good support is honest and thoughtful. Honesty isn't about telling you what you want to hear it's about the truth! Like it or not.

That's the thing mgm...too many people on the site want the "support" that enables them to keep doing what they are doing.

"Support" is not intended to be enabling...especially when the behavior is wrong.

I have seen posters tell others... "I don't like your advice...you are not 'supporting' me...so do not post to me anymore".


Translation:
"If you can not tell me what I want to hear, which is that it is OK to continue in this abhorrent behavior..and that I am right in this behavior...then do not post to me anymore".

I have asked posters to put that in the title so that we can all be clear on what it is that they want...so that no one wastes their time telling them what they don' want to hear. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Sometimes, it's the really hard questions that force them to look in the mirror, and when they don't like what they see...then they become defensive. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Good Reminder post.

committed </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(Lemonman's mouth is hanging open) --> in the same night, I have read the post that I disgreed the most with (see MOm23Boys thread) and the post that I most agree with--> your post.

Perhaps, this post should be made a sticky around here, what words of wisdom <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

So often I have read posters being referred to as "my MB friends"...and I wonder...what kind of friend would sit idly by and be supportive of the BS's choices to go down destructive paths?

With friends like that, who needs enemies? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ba109:
<strong> So often I have read posters being referred to as "my MB friends"...and I wonder...what kind of friend would sit idly by and be supportive of the BS's choices to go down destructive paths?

With friends like that, who needs enemies? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One of the things I learned here was that we can not control the actions of others. We can aid, help, support, condone, condemn, hate, love, like, be happy, sad, mad, etc..... but we can't make anyone else do anything (except us and our children and even then...). With that in mind it is not always that all sit idly by. Sometimes there is nothing more that can be done without jepordizing the rest. Sometimes even if that risk is taken, still it is not appreciated.

Another point I learned is that no matter WS, OP or BS doesn't matter.... if their mind is not ready to accept good support or advice, even if it is said and done in a perfect manner with the best of intentions, it could still be rejected. Recall that the at one time a large group of imperfect people rejected a perfect man. Sure wasn't because he didn't say the right thing at the right time.

JMHO,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> One of the things I learned here was that we can not control the actions of others. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yet this is what is considered "support" by many on this board. Those that enable the BS by continually empathizing with them while at the same time bashing the WS and the OP are the "MB friends" that I am referring to.

There is no forcing the BS to take action, I agree. It is not supportive however, to join in the drama of a BS who does nothing to better the M while insisting that it is the WS that needs to change.

We cannot change the WS or force them to take action. They (for the most part) are not on the board. The BS is.

Anyone around here ever read Sarte? He suggests that we have already answered our own questions by choosing to ask the opinions of people who we think will give us the answers we want.

There is some real truth to this.

Who among us has not both rejected and been the recipient of rejection when honest, unbiased [if such a thing exists <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ] truth comes into play?

Yet we are told..emotionally..they are not ready. OK. Let me know when they are. I assumed that since they were asking for help..that they were prepared to receive it. How silly of me.

Making decisions based on emotion is WS behavior..it is fog behavior, and it is extremely selfish. We are not to be slaves to our emotions. It is perfectly acceptable to say..this will hurt but it needs to be done. If only the WS would do this very thing recovery could begin. Until the BS also accepts this and responds appropriately there will be no such thing as respect or boundary observed in the relationship.

I will never support bad choices. I do not want to be responsible for helping people bring destruction onto themselves.

Noodle

Noodle,

Just had to tell you I luv your style. Direct, blunt and to the point!! Some may not like to hear you state the truth, some may take your metaphors literally. Me? I think you rock! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ba109:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> One of the things I learned here was that we can not control the actions of others. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yet this is what is considered "support" by many on this board. Those that enable the BS by continually empathizing with them while at the same time bashing the WS and the OP are the "MB friends" that I am referring to.

There is no forcing the BS to take action, I agree. It is not supportive however, to join in the drama of a BS who does nothing to better the M while insisting that it is the WS that needs to change.

We cannot change the WS or force them to take action. They (for the most part) are not on the board. The BS is. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well BA, that c/b me you are referring to. Now take a look at this same point of yours from a different angle. First let's outline what you said:

1. Empathize with a BS.

2. Bashing a WS or OP

3. A BS who insists only the WS needs to change

4. Supporting a BS who is like item 3.

5. Can not force a change on the WS.

6. WS' side usually not represented on MB.

Now my take:

1. Empathize with a BS.

Orchid: When a BS 1st comes to MB, that is what is most often done. Yet there have been a few cases where the BS anger is sooo great is mimicks the anger of a WS who is caught. When this happens often the BS has to undergo an attitude change (chill pill) until the MB concepts can work. It is generally recommended the BS work on themselves 1st. Pray for a clear mind and a calm heart to be followed by lots of patience is what I often post to a newer one.

Because of the 'in the dark' sitch the WS and OP throw most BS into, the BS does need support. Empathize? Maybe Sympathize? Probably Support? If the attitude is ready? Definitely. Of course referencing the other MB tools and other helpful places/books, etc. is also done.

2. Bashing a WS or OP

Orchid: Yes, it goes with the territory. Wish those WS and OPs didn't make it sooo tempting and sooo easy t/d! It is a stress reliever of sorts and has it's place. When it gets out of hand, it usually is put back in it's place.

How do we know that? Well many WS' whose BS post here do read. Many in the past have. Some even venture to post. Ending result is often a learning experience for both BS and WS whether or not the M survives. In all cases the BS ends up with more in their favor than the WS ends up with and survives better. Maybe not materially but emotionally and mentally.

If WS/OP bashing is the worst thing a BS does..... in my books the WS/OP got away with the least penalty.

3. A BS who insists only the WS needs to change

Orchid: Awwwh... not as many have this outlook when they leave as when they come in. Most BS realize fairly quickly that they have a part in the demise of their M. Then at some crazy point it crosses over and the WS blames the BS for the A. Now that is stupid.....but some BS even take that blame.....the sad part is some here at MB agree.....not so. Once we have heard a more complete version of a BS' account, I can't recall 1 instance where a BS is the cause of the A.

In my case and several others, the WS comes back and apologizes to the BS and tells the OP that the BS was and is not to blame for the A nor for the demise of the M. So I went from blaming my self too much to realizing when the fog cleared, I did not have to carry as much of the blame burden as I had thought. In reality, I was not the bad witch the WS and OP tried sooo hard to make me out t/b. Once I realized that, my recovery kicked into gear.

4. Supporting a BS who is like item 3.

Orchid: Most BS here want t/b beat up. I don't believe this happens as often as we think. Again look at the bigger picture.

For those who post here occasionaly or for only a short time, it may appear that way. Most times the MB courses, books, counseling sessions, support groups, doctor, venting on MB, etc. are recommended.

It is hard to support someone who s/b in plan B but wants to stick to plan A or do an A/B type plan. It is equally hard to move a BS to plan B. Sometimes we just have to say what we can and leave the BS alone for a while.

Some here work together. Spreading out to help others. I know when I see some posting like Pep, ML, Cali, WAT, Resillient, Ark, RH, JL, etc. I know they are in pretty good hands. So I seek out others who either don't have a response or are in a sitch I can provide support in. Remember we can't be all to all. But we can be here for those wanting good support.


5. Can not force a change on the WS.

Orchid: Yep and if they don't give themselves the opportunity to learn what is here, then they less tools to recover well. On the other hand, the WS/OP should realize that same applies to others including the BS and family. I like to apply the reverse babble techinque to those with fog logic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


6. WS' side usually not represented on MB.

Orchid: That's because this is a marriage building forum. Take a look at our latest example. She was by no means the 1st and not the last. I recall when I was a 'newbie', there were droves of OWs coming over from gloryB. If you think 1 Ws/OP can stir up a storm, take a look at the 2 that attacked the preg/child board for several weeks. GQII and the d/d sites were all asked to help out those on Preg/child. I never will forget how those sites all worked together to help rid that board from those who were bent on bringing pain to those dealing with a possible OC. I also got a few recipes out of those threads!?!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Periodically I see this phase of questionning why we are here. It is an eventuality that some old timers will leave MB. For those that leave for good reasons, we always wish them well. For those that leave under duress, well...... that's not cool. As a former manager I learned a good worker is not easy to find. I treasure those who have a good impact on our lives. Appreciation is important to have. We can agree to disagree and still benefit.

Being on MB has helped me in many ways. T/b a better W, mother, worker, manager, neighbor, relative, person. I already have a good relationship w/my God and learned a lot from my parents, Bible Studies, meetings and grandmothers. But I knew I needed to improve and here is where I learned a lot. Can't say I always liked what I was told but I took the good and discarded what I couldn't use. I also know I am not better than others and that helps.

Hope this long post brings some clarity. I have posted this kind of thread in the past. Probably should have kept a copy of that post but when you have as many posts as I have (I'm not bragging ya' know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), well one can forget. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

G'night,
L.

Just have to put my .02 in. One of the reasons that I am still here is the honesty of the MB posters.

Well, most of them. As soon as I read jojo's comments I stopped reading any thread she put her junk on. To me she epitomizes everything that the OP is. That is all I will say about her. Won't waste my time.

But, when I have been so low I couldn't see up. Or when I did something really stupid. Or if I was about to do something that could be stupid; when I have asked for help, someone always came to my rescue. Everyone that responded gave me their honest opinion. And it was not only honest but said with caring and most importantly, from experience.

Hello, (knocking on someone's thick head) if you are here to learn and to get help and support, and someone with experience, wisdom and honesty takes the time to respond, at least listen with an open mind.

I cannot say thank you enough for the people that have answered me honestly. I might not like what they say. But, it has made me put on the brakes of some pretty destructive behaviour and made me try to change it.

Whenever someone says something that I don't like, if I respond, "yes, but"... that is my (knock on my own hard head)alarm to myself. To me that means that I don't want to change what I am doing. I just want justification for my actions. So, I am trying very hard to not do that.

Of course, sometimes not all the details are there.... Is that a "Yes, But" statement?

Anyway, I read most threads. But try to avoid the "Yes, But"rs". But, the vets still try to help. With patience with love and with 2x4s when necessary. How cool is that?

There is more love and caring on this board than in some families and from friends. Add to that the personal experiences both good, and bad, that are shared. To me it is a recipe for a successful forum.

Sorry, can't help myself. I am always long-winded. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

FAA,

Just wanted to say that I appreciated your post. Seen quite a lot of progress in you since you started posting. Amazing how we can learn even while in the deepest of pains. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Please keep up the good work and thanks for being encouraging.

take care,
L.

Orchid, THANK YOU!

I AM learning. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And I do owe to you and the other MB'rs for your guidance and support. And especially the mini 2x4s that I got. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

If you can't give the smacks in the head that someone needs to wake up, IMHO, that is being an enabler for behaviour that is a learned, life-long reflex reaction. I am here to undo a life time of reacting a certain way. It is very hard and painful work to change.

And while I would like these change to help save my marriage. I am here for me to change. NOT anyone else. IMO, if I changed to try and get WH back and didn't really want to, how dishonest is that? ANd the changes wouldn't last and the resentment would be overwhelming. UH DUH!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well BA, that c/b me you are referring to. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Orchid, it's not.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hope this long post brings some clarity. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To *your* POV, yes.

I'm looking forward to other opinions on this topic. I think the trend of this board has severely slipped away from offering "support" in the correct way...support is applying the Harley concepts.

Allright, who is the grand poobah of determinig what "support" is. It means different things to different people, and we all offer advice and support in different ways. I try to tailor my responses to fit what I think needs to be heard...and in the manner it needs to be "said". Pretty presumptive on my part...what makes me, or anyone else, an expert. Some others have a one-size-fits-all type of response, equally presumptive, but honest. With experience, you know the posters attitude.

BUT, when a hurting person says...I don't like your post, or the way you are posting...then apologize and get off...don't keep bashing their brains in with the..."if you'd only see it my way you'd know I was right" attitude. Step aside and know you got to them...maybe a little too soon...give them time.

My definition of support? Helping a person with WHATEVER decision they are making as long as I am morally behind that decision (and I have a pretty open mind).

<small>[ November 30, 2004, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: StillHereMakingIt ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StillHereMakingIt:
<strong>[QUOTE]My definition of support? Helping a person with WHATEVER decision they are making as long as I am morally behind that decision (and I have a pretty open mind). </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...and in helping you need an honest and thoughtful response.

Yes, exactly mgm, and we all have different views of what is thoughtful...

BUT, if a person says...stop it, what you are saying is not helpful, and I take issue with it...why argue? Then it gets into the realm of support helping ourselves, by proving ourselves right, by saving face, by being selfish arguing our point.

Honesty can be cruel.

No one knows the ABSOLUTE TRUTH.

The TRUTH is different for every person.

We can't get away from our own subjective situations and project onto a situation a possible outcome from our OWN experience.

How self-righteous we can become thinking we know what is BEST for a person based on written words of their situation.

To all those folks that are frustrated that people just don't "get" what you are trying to point out to them and want to drive the point home, and never apologize, and are more than happy to say 'good riddance' to someone who says they don't want to post here any longer...then I hope you get what you are seeking, a forum where you are talking with yourself or only people who agree with you.