Cy:

I didn't want to thread jack Capircorn's thread (I have had a bad habit of this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) so I started a new thread. Sorry about your T-giving. Perhaps (although probably not) your finding out more about your STBXW will help kill off any remaining cells of love for her. I was on a relative moratorium from posting on here b/c honestly I was sick of the pissing contests and the "moral majority" here who felt the need to correct all of my opinions and posts. I have since gotten over that. Although I still see myself not posting as much as previous. I seem to be happier reaing all of this and being on the sidelines rather than in the scrum. Seems like there have been quite a few tempers here lately and quite a few defections. I think perhaps I am just "growing" and I don't "need" the board as much as previous...I don't know. I don't feel compelled to try and "save" a BS here who is wallowing in self pity and being steamrolled by a WS. I still have the urges to post some of my strong opinions, but I am getting a better grip of these urges <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I hope you can "recover" yourself from your STBXW. There will be a time in your life where when you hear info about here you don't feel sick or your pulse doesn't rise to 150. There will, you just aren't there yet. You are one of the posters I really respect on here and I sincerely hope that you find "peace" with all of this someday. I know that you will, it just is so hard believing that.

? for you --> After all the betrayal you have suffered from your wife, would you take her back tomorrow if she came back? Just curious.

Lemon,

Thanks for your kind words. I have always felt a kinship to you seeing as how our stories are so similar. I am just too old to be going through this caca <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> I hope to read your story sometime when you are ready.

In answer to your question I would have to say, no, I could not take her back(unless she did the plan I laid out in the other post. But we both know that is not going to happen). Since I have stopped doing updates, two things occurrred. First my WW threw a party in MY home on our wedding anniversary and secondly( and way more importantly) my 80 y/o mom has been diagnosed with supranuclear progressive bulbar degeneration. My neuro friends have given her 1-3 not so pleasant years. My goal is to make her as happy as I can while I still have her. My biggest regret was that I never videotaped her talking about her early life with my father(they met and married in the concentration camps during WWII). With her Dx, her biggest problems are dysphonia and dysphagia and it is getting worse fairly rapidly. Like I said a few days ago, perspective,perspective,perspective.

BTW I am watching LeBron and my Cavs taking apart the Bulls.

I am sorry to hear about your mother. I know that this is a tough time for you but I know you will get through it. I don't pretned to know what the emotions you are going thorough, but I will pray for you. I am rooting for you to survive this. You will, I know it.

I hope that you are enjoying the Cavs game. I am unfortunatley on call AGAIN (for the second weekend in a row <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ) and IN THE HOSPITAL in the MD's lounge. I hope that the members of the local rod and gun club take the night off. I am just "not in the mood" to be going to the OR tonight.

You want to talk about perpective? I was called urgently to go to the ED today to try and crack the chest of a 36 yo man who "arrested" in the field while playing touch football with friends. Probably had a massive MI. The nurses let the wife watch this cluster F*** of a code go on while she (the wife) was holding their 2 year old. To make matters worse, the wife was 38 weeks pregnant. The look of despair on this woman's face has really shaken me today (and trust me, I am used to seeing the terrible things that this world can bring). The poor guy had been asystolic for 25 minutes and these ED docs were asking me to do a thoracotomy in the ED. In the meantime, the wife is in hysterics asking God to save her husband, and looking at me like I could do it. You and I both know that 25 minutes of asytole is incompatible with life. I refused to do crack his chest and asked that the code be called. Asking for the time of death was devestating to this woman. I was so damn mad that the nurses let the wife witness all of this. There is a strong movement to let family members watch codes, etc..but I for one really disagreee with all of this. The humane thing to do was call the code, but those poor eyes that the wife gave me have really affected me. I don't know why this has affected me so much...? <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> The entire family seemed to be watching this from the hall way, and they could see me throw my gloves off in disgust and anger when we called the code. I kept thinking, if there is a God, how the hell can he let this happen??? In my actions, the family could see that it was over and their loved one was dead. I feel very F'ing guilty for letting my emotions be seen and letting the family see that their loved one was dead by my actions. They deserved to be told and not interpret this from my actions. Part of me feels guilty for not cracking this guys chest, perhaps this would have let the wife feel we did "everything", but I know this was not the right thing to do. Mutilating this guys body was not the right thing to do. My irrational side won't let this go. I feel so damn mad with myself for letting these emotions rise to the surface. I know better. The entire ED staff was devestated and the nurses were in hysterics. Can you imagine this little beautiful blond hair child crying because his "daddy" was dying and the fear he must have has while his mother was in hysterics. I have been in a very "down" mood all day and I guess I just came to this board for comfort. It is kind of selfish of me though. My pain and depression over this cannot even amount to 1/1000 of what this poor woman suffered through today. When the code was called, she jumped on the gurney and was telling the husband how much she loved him and how she would raise their children, etc... I took everything in my power to not cry. Our training teaches us to detach ourselves from this, but today I cannot help it. Sometimes, this job is not worth it. Sorry for my pity party. When I ever get depressed about my problems, I should always think about this day....It will make me at least say to myself....."and you think you have problems". It is all perpective my friend, you are so very correct about that. Thanks for listening.

<small>[ November 27, 2004, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

Lemon,

What a horrific story! My heart goes out for that poor woman and her children. Man, I am glad that I don't face those kind of situations. What is the reason for letting patients families be present in the ED during a code? It is a brutal scene for someone not familiar with the process. How do you wind down from a situation like that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cymanca:
<strong> Lemon,

What a horrific story! My heart goes out for that poor woman and her children. Man, I am glad that I don't face those kind of situations. What is the reason for letting patients families be present in the ED during a code? It is a brutal scene for someone not familiar with the process. How do you wind down from a situation like that? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know why they are doing this now !!! They ( I always wonder who the hell "they" is) want the family to be able to be with their loved one at the end. I don't get it, but there is definitely a movement towards this now. I was so mad at the ED nurses, but they were just as devestated as everyone else, so I piped the hell down. They didn't need to hear my $hit also. I can only imagine that this poor woman is going to have this scene in her mind forever. I just don't get it.

Telling the family was hard, but they already knew. I was kind of off the hook. The ED doc bailed out on this. I think he really $hit his pants on this one. I was called overhead STAT, which in my lifetime has always been for tragic tragic circumstances. As for unwinding. Not sure what to do. I had a good cry earlier. Very unusual for me, but I needed it. I feel more in control now. I am sipping some coffee with my pager sitting here on vibrate b/c I can not stomach the shreek of the beep. If I can make it though tonight, I will have off tomorrow and can kick back and watch my Eagles kick the crap out of the Giants. That hopefully will be my unwinding. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

P.S. For all of you who have read this post, I am sorry if this has depressed you. I know these things are not easy to hear about.

My husband is a diabetic and if he ever, ever, ends up "code" I don't want to be anywhere near the scene. Likewise, if I am in an accident and the doctors are working to save my life, I surely do not want my H or children staring on.

I know "they" are pushing this to become commonplace, but "they" are nuts in my book! And not just for the families who witness the death of a loved one, but for forcing the staff to work in front of them. I say let me get out of the way so you can concentrate and do your stuff!

~ Snow

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Snowbelle:
<strong> My husband is a diabetic and if he ever, ever, ends up "code" I don't want to be anywhere near the scene. Likewise, if I am in an accident and the doctors are working to save my life, I surely do not want my H or children staring on.

I know "they" are pushing this to become commonplace, but "they" are nuts in my book! And not just for the families who witness the death of a loved one, but for forcing the staff to work in front of them. I say let me get out of the way so you can concentrate and do your stuff!

~ Snow </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is it exactly. This ED doc was $hitting his pants and asking me to do a procedure on a "dead" guy. I felt like screaming at him, are you a moron??? A "code' or arrest situation is so volatile and chaotic that a family should never see what goes on. I was threading in a cathether into this guys heart and at the same time looking at this kid crying. What a mess. I think I am going to go to the ethics committe on Monday and demand some answers on why this is so "en vogue" now. I know this is going to sound arrogant and crass , but I know that the people who are preaching that family be there at codes. are NOT the ones running the 'code". I am sure of it.

Lemon,

Off the ED subject. Do you still get attempted contact from your STBXW. I can always tell when mine is feeling down or getting ready to do something she is ashamed of. She is like a child in that manner. Before Thanksgiving she made it a big point to contact a friend to ostensibely find out if I was going to be with friends or family. My friend Rev. Mike took that as a sign that she still cared for my well being. I remember laughing, saying she was just trying to find out where I would be so that her gonadal shuffle could be accomplished without worrying about me showing up. The scary thing for my WW was that she always said nobody knew her like I did and sometimes it was spooky how I could predict her behavior.

Dear Lemonman,

Please excuse the intrusion into your thread. I see and hear the stress in your posts. I am truly sorry for you, your staff and the family that suffered the loss. The loss of a life really makes us realize where we really need to place our priorities. I almost cried just reading your account. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Your experience was quite telling and it has helped me embed the reasons why it is important to keep doing our best. It may or may not always work but it is the best we can do and the right ones know it. I do have an answer about your question and would happy to address it to you personally.

Cymanca, I am also sorry for your extended pain. Didn't know Lemonman was a doctor also..... u 2 have a lot in common eh? Well you can be good support for each other. I am glad.

Sorry to hear about your mom. I learned something about a week ago about degenerative nerve condition disorders (not sure if I am saying that right - I am not in the medical profession just a patient <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). Anyway it may have some good options for your mom to consider and maybe you could if you w/b willing clarify some info for me.

If you are interested, please e-mail me, my addy is in my profile unles you want me to post it here.

Take care,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cymanca:
<strong> Lemon,

Off the ED subject. Do you still get attempted contact from your STBXW. I can always tell when mine is feeling down or getting ready to do something she is ashamed of. She is like a child in that manner. Before Thanksgiving she made it a big point to contact a friend to ostensibely find out if I was going to be with friends or family. My friend Rev. Mike took that as a sign that she still cared for my well being. I remember laughing, saying she was just trying to find out where I would be so that her gonadal shuffle could be accomplished without worrying about me showing up. The scary thing for my WW was that she always said nobody knew her like I did and sometimes it was spooky how I could predict her behavior. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't maintain much contact with my STBXW. She essentially won't talk to me anymore b/c I will NOT discuss reconciliation. Her mother and I maintain a very close realtionship and this has caused a lot of friction. My STBXW feels her parents should support her NO MATTER WHAT. I think the STBXW is still in shock b/c she knows how much I loved her and cannot BELIEVE that I am no longer in love with her. She is so distraught b/c the games and showmanship don't affect me anymore. This has been so devestating to her. I almost believe I could demand ANYTHING and she would come back......part of it is that I am not unattianable and to her I am so much more desireable now that I am not some weak and needy man. I am just hypothesising what is going through her mind.

As far your wife, she almost seems like she asks if you will be with people during the holidays so this can help ease her guilt of hurting you. I truly belive that. She deep down in the recesses of her mind HAS TO feel guilty for devestating you like this, and at least subconscisously she is trying to ease her guilt. That is at least my "take" on it.

Orchid,

Thank you so much for your kind words regarding my mom. Please feel free to post here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong> Dear Lemonman,

Please excuse the intrusion into your thread. I see and hear the stress in your posts. I am truly sorry for you, your staff and the family that suffered the loss. The loss of a life really makes us realize where we really need to place our priorities. I almost cried just reading your account. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Your experience was quite telling and it has helped me embed the reasons why it is important to keep doing our best. It may or may not always work but it is the best we can do and the right ones know it. I do have an answer about your question and would happy to address it to you personally.

L. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid, by no means are you intruding on this thread, it is open for all to comment. Please tell me what you think the answer to my question is. I am fine if you can post it here, if that is ok with you. Thank you for your comments. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Lemon,


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As far your wife, she almost seems like she asks if you will be with people during the holidays so this can help ease her guilt of hurting you. I truly belive that </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lemon, that is because you are a loving,caring human being. I don't want to vilify her(she does way to good a job of doing that herself) but with her Dx of BPD, I have been relegated to the complete devaluation side of her psychological pathology. Her concern was truly just finding out my physical location so she could implant her southern physical location on the OM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cymanca:
<strong> .... Her concern was truly just finding out my physical location so she could implant her southern physical location on the OM. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cy,

That is a visual hard to erase from one's mind. YUCK! Unfortunately this is properly closer to the truth than a BS may want to admit. It took some strength to get to be able to dicipher through the fog and come up with that interpretation (cuz the WS tend NOT to tell the BS the truth - just pieces filled with assumptions).

I will work on a reply to you and lemonman maybe tomorrow. What I have to put together will take a bit of time. Want to make it as concise as possible.

take care,
L.

Lemon,

I read your post about the MI and your "post event stress". Sorry to hear you had to go through this...again.

Sometimes I think those working in healthcare have a unique view of life and health. It wasn't until I went into nursing that I truly appreciated how strong, yet fragile the human body was.

Frankly, I'm shocked that the pt.'s W was in the room when they were "running the code". To be honest, I've never seen/heard of that before. There's enough frenzied ppl in there as it is....

As for your emotions...my experience has been that sometimes it's good for families to see that healthcare workers are human. That we too, feel their loss, we cry over our failings, we doubt ourselves and sometimes we wear our emotions on our sleeves. A little humanity in an institution is never a bad thing.

As for your emotions...my experience has been that sometimes it's good for families to see that healthcare workers are human. That we too, feel their loss, we cry over our failings, we doubt ourselves and sometimes we wear our emotions on our sleeves. A little humanity in an institution is never a bad thing.

I agree 100%. I lost both my parents tragically and actually sued the ER over not intibating my mother who by the way walked into the ER on her own but went into a coma an hour later because nobody bothered to intibate her when she couldn't breath on her own. They did bring her back to coma state however, and then a week later we had to have a "family vote" to pull life support, which caused my Dad to kill himself with vodka a few months later and my brothers to not speak to each other anymore. Did we get an apology from the people at ER, even so much as a tear? Nope.

Yep a little compassion would have went a long way in my healing, and quite frankly Lemonman I think you are great because of yours. I can't imagine the horific emotions which would go into play for a health practioner who actually does see the pain in someone else's eyes. So my heart goes out to you Lemonman.

Lemonman,
Tho not qualified to analyze, it looks to me like your 'overreaction' to the code has a deeper meaning you may not be seeing: you witnessed a woman distraught with the prospect of losing her her husband and you experienced the helplessness of not being able to do anything about it.

Seems to me that situation illustrated two things that continue to give you grief and pain: your exwife is not distraught over losing you, she will not ask God or anyone else to return you to her - she would not move heaven and earth as this woman would; and nothing you can do could or will change it - you are powerless to make it change - just like the poor guy on the table - he was already gone and your marriage is already gone. It must be truly devestating for a person in your position - someone who takes on very difficult tasks with success on a daily basis - to face a task where you are left helpless. Whether it is a man who is already coded, or a marriage that has already coded.

MHO and observation, worth as much as you paid for it...

<small>[ November 28, 2004, 07:03 AM: Message edited by: restarting ]</small>

Could your anger had more to do with witnessing the injustice of a woman who loved her H but was losing him to death, and your WW who has you alive but doesn't love you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> BTW I am watching LeBron and my Cavs taking apart the Bulls.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cymanca,

Are you a Clevelander? There now or transplanted but still routing for the home team? Or just a fan for the "right" team?

I am a native Clevelander but now live in Texas. In fact, was just in the C-town for Thanksgiving...

Regards,

Brit's Brat/BS-43
XH-45
DS-3
Status: D-Day 5/02, divorce final 5/04 after two years of trying to recovery marriage.

Brits Brat,

Born and raised in Cleveland. Always will love my home teams especially the Indians. Moved out to the west coast about 15 years ago. Love the weather out here but miss my family a lot.