Almost two weeks ago I told my ex-fiancee, who I had lived with for almost three years but asked to leave last spring that I did not want him to move in again.

I told him I wanted a full commitment of marriage. And I had told him before I wanted to take the MB course together and him to be in counseling with a pastor I like, and for us to be involved in the church community at this pastors church.

Well none of this has happened. And when he asked if he could move in with me now and we would take it day by day, I lost it really and we got into an argument. I have not heard from him since.

I have been in the worst emotional place I think I have ever been in since all this happened and was wondering if learning to set boundaries and enforcing them is what is bringing this horible, gut wrenching grief to me.

Is it normal to feel this kind of intense pain when first becomming a person with boundaries and self respect? I feel like I'm having a nervous breakdown of some kind.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> Is it normal to feel this kind of intense pain when first becomming a person with boundaries and self respect? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uhm... yes. And panic attacks. But they go away. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I think you were more than fair. And I also think that if he's unwilling or unable to respect these important boundries, you have made the right choice.

Please for a moment think for a moment about the pain you are feeling now. What does it feel like? How long will it last?

Compare it to the pain you would feel if this was an indicator of things to come and you married him anyways. What will that feel like? How long will that last?

I also think that grieving is a natural response to a situation like this.

{{{{{weaver}}}}}}

dewt

I think that to rebuild a stronger better house you need to tear the oringinal house down to it's foundations and build up again. The demolition and re-construction are stressful and time consuming. In the end, the new house is stronger, better designed and has a firm foundation to support it.

These things you ask for, they are not really a big deal for someone who really loved you.

I think the pain comes from finally realizing how little that person cared. Not from setting boundaries. At least in my case, it's not.

Weaver,

Congratulations. You have become knowledgable of the dynamics required to make a lasting committment. You have decided that you wanted to set a high standard in your life. None of these decisions have caused you pain. They are good decisions.

What caused you pain, is that you asked your lover to join you in this endeavor and he declined. He said to you in essence, I do not want to committ to you, to learn for you, or to extend beyond my comfort zone for you, I do not want to sacrifice to build a solid future together. I want to eat the fruit available today and walk away in a consequence free environment when things aren't fun anymore.

Not suprisingly, you had to pass on this as it fell waaaaaaay beneath what you have decided to accept for yourself and your daughter.

The bad news is that you are already emotionally invested in this man and..yes, it does hurt, very much. I have no doubt.

The good news is that you know now before you invest any further that it is a fruitless endeavor. This knowledge can save you the pain and heartbreak of learning this difficult lesson over a period of years in which chronic dissappointment is your closest companion.

Your history suggests that in the past, you did not place great value on your person or your life. It was during this time that you became involved with your ex. You have changed, he has not. It really is that simple.

In the future..as you continue to have more and more integrity re your self worth..you will find that you will attract an entirely different sort of man. If for no other reason I would bow out of the dating scene for a few years and relearn male/female interaction with my new standards in place. In the past you were weak..you were mistreated because you were sought out by predators and other equally weak people. Now that you are strong...you will send the get lost body language to the predators and attract the strong with whom you will be able to build the life that you desire.

Please do not settle for less.

Noodle

Hi weaver,

I can only answer your question based on my own experience. Your question:

"Is it normal to feel this kind of intense pain when first becomming a person with boundaries and self respect? I feel like I'm having a nervous breakdown of some kind."

YES! YES!! YES!!! YES!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I also used to sweat profusely and stutter or stammer while I communicated a boundary. I didn't start out with big boundaries, just tiny ones (but they felt HUUUUUUGE at the time). I thought I might cause myself a heart attack when I first started enforcing those tiny boundaries (pounding heart, chest pain, dizziness).

Don't let my name fool you, weaver <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . I'm not there yet but I am getting closer. When I first changed my name from YetAgain, LovingBoundaries was a goal. I've made much more progress in setting boundaries in a loving way than I have made progress in loving to set and enforce boundaries. I'm starting to like it, though, and I definitely like the results. It feels both empowering and freeing when I do it well. When I don't do it well, I feel bad about myself. But I used to feel like a horrible mean person if I even thought about setting a boundary. I learned that setting boundaries is not horrible or mean, but NOT setting and enforcing boundaries is a horrible and incredibly mean thing to do to myself. How's that for progress? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Take care weaver, it gets better but it takes time and practice, practice, practice.

Thank you everyone.

Yes I think it probably does have to do with the fact that I am finally getting it that he just does not have what it takes to be in a productive, committed relationship.

I think I am mourning what has always been a way of life for me - not expecting too much from another and therefore not having to expect too much from myself.

Sure does hurt though. And panic attacks, oh YES. Insomnia also.

I am finally reading "Private Lies" by Frank Pittman. It is relevant to me because of his study on people who cheat early on in marriages, how little hope there is for change in them, and how they go through marriages frequently and quickly. Such is the case with my ex, only 44 yo with 4 kids, 6 grandchildren and three divorces under his belt. Not a good prognosis from Pittman's study.

Pittman also touches on the questions of "love" and what that means in infidelity. Is it a lack of love for the spouse which causes infidelity? Because of the complicated emotions in a marriage, Pittman says this question is so adolescent as to be utter "idocy" and better left to the petals of daisies. I love that ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you for taking the time to help me understand all of this. I'm going to get there. And Noodle you are right, it has been a lifelong pattern for me to attact predators and loosers. Just now really beginning to "get" that.

TTSI,

You sound just like my sister, she said the exact same thing to me at Thanksgiving. Only in her words it was like this -

Well I'm glad you feel bad, because you are finally seeing that he just doesn't care enough! And then of course she has to add her take on his mental state with "and he's mentally ill anyway, DO YOU SEE THAT NOW!!!!"

Weaver,

U have to forgive me. Your posts are generally sooo encouraging when you post to others, I often forget how new all of this is for you. I keep thinking you are farther along in your recovery but your post shows that you are almost back to square 1 again and yep, your feelings will replay it all over again.

Some call it dd2, dd3, dd4.... Know that the dd#s as they try to repeat will have less of a blow and the time of hurt w/b less and less. At some point you will even be able to look at the WS and laugh because the impact of 'another d/d' loses it's ability to take you to your limits. Why? Because you learn to regain control of your emotions. Those emotions were always yours but you have a part of your life and heart to the WS and now you have to take it back. It hurts.... a lot..... but it won't hurt forever if you choose to move forward.

The kicker is even though you are reading and maybe even agreeing with all of this. If your mind and heart are not in sync, you yep you will continue to hold yourself in pain until that thought or event releases you from that hold.

For me that 'event' was a dream where I learned I was not the ugly abusive witch the OP and Ws were trying to convince me that I was. Sure they riled me up and then pointed their stinky fingers at me saying ..... 'see, see she's angry so she must be crazy and abusive, etc.' Right, well when I finally mastered reverse babble and played back those reponses back to them, then I reached a turning point in my life where I began to hand them back their own pain. Sometimes that meant plan B, no contact. Othertimes it meant playing back their attack words to them. Boy that felt good. I still use that technique when I think someone is being stupid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Anyway my dear, read the thread in my sig line about the 5 stages of grieving. I am sorry you are living through this again. But I know you will survive.

Hugz,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> TTSI,

You sound just like my sister, she said the exact same thing to me at Thanksgiving. Only in her words it was like this -

Well I'm glad you feel bad, because you are finally seeing that he just doesn't care enough! And then of course she has to add her take on his mental state with "and he's mentally ill anyway, DO YOU SEE THAT NOW!!!!" </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I wouldn't put it like that, I hope I didn't come across like that, anyway.

But her point is definitely the same. I don't know right now how it is possible to come to grips with it, as I'm right in it now.

I mean, to accept so many years and memories, and to accept that they will never be again.... I don't know.

The kicker is even though you are reading and maybe even agreeing with all of this. If your mind and heart are not in sync, you yep you will continue to hold yourself in pain until that thought or event releases you from that hold.

This is what I am praying for now, Orchid. The syncronizing of my heart and head, as I know instinctually this is where peace lies. I just wish it would hurry !!!!!

And it's funny you should mention your sig line and the five stages of grieving as I have about memorized them since last spring. I go through the entire course about once a month it seems( and then I break it off with him and go through them all over again). Talk about insane.

Thanks for caring. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

No TTSI,

You did not come across as offensive in any way. You just sound like my sister, and I meant that in a good way.

And yes it is such a huge loss, a death. For me of a dream mostly. But the reality of it is I've been living in the memory of a love that never was, I think - to quote a song from Linda Rondstat.

I hope things are going pretty well with you, I haven't been keeping up on your story I'm afraid. Too lost in my own troubles right now I guess.

so weaver...

is it possible that while at first he may be licking his wounds...
and trying his hardest to turn this on you..

could it be??

could it be??
that he is facing himself for the first time in a while..?

is all lost....

not necessarily....

what is known...
that you set a smart, healthy boundary...
with no outrageous demands....

it is in his hands...
he is facing it...

give it time...

seek peace within...
knowing you yourself will not accept less in your life....

man you should feel empowered..
strong...

give this new way a change..
relish in you...
feel your way....

post your boundaries somewhere you will see them every morning....

it's his burden now...
his time to choose...
and it is not you he rejects if he chooses otherwise...it is intinsic value that he rejects...
and no one who rejects these things does well inside their soul...

ark

Sometimes Ark I think that in his case, he has not been able to come to terms with what he did to his first wife of 14 years and the children they had together. It's like he cannot have with another women what he did not give to his family.

His mom once told me that he has horrible regrets over that divorce, and I believe this. He spends almost all his free time and money traveling to see his grown children and helping them out as much as possible, too much really because they seem a little dependent on him. But he seems to be trying to make up for lacking when they were children.

You have such faith in people's ability to change.

Thank you Ark for your encouragement, I'll try to keep some good thoughts in my head but right now I just don't have any faith to spare for him.

Wow. I can really relate to this. I finally set a boundary and enforced it, and I have had major stomach problems, anxiety, shaking, that HORROR in the pit of my stomach ever since.

Funny thing is, if anyone who knows me, were to be asked "Is Dipi someone who stries you as someone who is unable to define and enforce boundaries?" They would laugh at the question. In my professional life, I am very assertive. In my "public life" I do not have any patience for baloney. But, alas, in my love life, I operate under this premise of fear...I am a hopeless romantic at heart, and it absolutely terrorizes me that the love I believed in was a lie, was a fabrication of my hearts desires, was not all I wanted it to be. And so I get soft, giving WH chance after chance after chance to try and live up to the fairytale I believed it all to be. I keep thinking in my mind "OK, one more chance. THIS TIME he will show me he is my prince." And all the while, I was hurting myself by being so used, so stuck, so broken with mo chance of healing. And really, I was hurting WH, because he never had the chance to live with the consequences of his choices (a valuable lesson, and something we all must do in the real world).

I can relate. We can do this.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{Weaver}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

To all of you who have supported, challenged and been with me these past months, and to those who welcomed me to this board even though I did not come here as a BS or WS, but a former OW, I wanted to let you know in what ways you have shown me things about myself which had led to the decisions I had made in my life which probably caused me to be an OW (unwittingly, but an OW all the same).

First of all for an update, he called last night to say no he was not ready for marriage. Had made to many mistakes in his past marriages to do it again right now.

He did say he would bid on a job here which would keep him here for a year and would rent his own place. He would like to start over in his life and possibly date me. He then read off a list of things he would need from me, if we were to have another chance <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> He is going to go to IC with a really good pastor in my town, but feels I need to go as well. He also said he isn't interested in dating me if I continue to drink wine every night. And he feels that 4 years is long enough to keep bringing up the fact that he lied to me about being married when I met him.

Well I already did quite drinking wine (since last Tuesday like Miss M <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) nor have I had a cigerette, so I'm good there.

But the really amazing thing that happened was I have been thinking so much about what everyone has been posting on my threads, and others lately. Ark about having faith and trusting in others. WAT about letting the property go. Noodle and Pep about taking responsiblity for the quality of your own life. Orchid about boundaries and well Orchid just always hits it right on, no matter what it seems. And MGM on this thread about tearing down the foundation of my house and rebuilding. Octobergil for caring about me. StillSeeking for praying for me. 2long and Gray for being my buddies. And all of Idiotville. Dipty for her beauty. Kiwi for her faith. And Kloe and Spidey because they feel like friends to me. And too many more to name. Every single person on this board has given me so much, even if not talking to me. It has really had a lot to do in shaping the "new and improved" me.

Soooo getting to the point, a funny thing happened as we were talking about this ASTRONOMICAL tax bill we just got sent on the island property. I said to him, you know I know how much that property means to you and I don't need it. I don't even want it if we are not together anymore, so you can buy me out for exactly what I put into (the downpayment) and I will take my name off the title. I told him that I would always care about him and that I wanted the best for him as well as for me, regardless of whether or not we ever end up together. AND I really meant it.

And then I felt a certain kind of peace, that both of us would be OKAY.

I have been through times of dispair and agonizing grief, and times of amblivious not caring one way or the other, and times of total unabashed hatred through these last 4 years since I met him. But now I just feel a certain calm, happiness. This feeling is wierd for me. No games, no plotting, no planning... just a kind of acceptance that all is right in my world.

Thank you to everyone on this board who has helped me through this and shown me what I came here looking for, which was how to be a better, happier, quality person! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Now, hopefully I can offer the same to others.

<small>[ December 03, 2004, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>