I do have one question. Your sig. says plan A, Plan A, Plan A away... Do you mean that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

MIF?

lemonman,

What you just said is my biggest fear. I was feeling so good about it, but I just got a phone call from the OW's spouse and there are more details that my husband lied to me about. He still didn't come clean.

HELP@

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by marriage is forever?:
<strong> I do have one question. Your sig. says plan A, Plan A, Plan A away... Do you mean that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

MIF? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, ofcourse not !!! It is really sarcasm, BUT I am gonna change it soon to something else. Thanks for giving me an idea. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

[QUOTEI do have one question. Your sig. says plan A, Plan A, Plan A away... Do you mean that] [/QUOTE]

If I may take up the glove for my friend lemon. He is merely taking a feathery swipe at the attitude of some posters to continually preach Plan A, when reality says that you are becoming a doormat to your WS's actions.He is trying to encourage the role of self respect and it's importance in his model of the recovery process. He is not alone in this belief.

How did I do, lemon?

Cymanca, I know. That's why I put the <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> after my question.

PS: sorry about the threadjack SRDD.

MIF?

<small>[ November 28, 2004, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: marriage is forever? ]</small>

Marriage,

Sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> It took me 3 months to figure out how to get these little smiley faces on the posts.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by srdd:
<strong> lemonman,

What you just said is my biggest fear. I was feeling so good about it, but I just got a phone call from the OW's spouse and there are more details that my husband lied to me about. He still didn't come clean.

HELP@ </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry for your pain. THIS IS THE EXACT F-ING REASON why a lot of the advice on here boils my blood.....ughhh,...God, I am so sorry for your pain. I think there is probably sooo muuch more to this story about your husbands betrayal than you really want to know if you hope to save your love for your husband. I truly believe that if you let him come back now, you are going to be back down this road again....I would stake a lot on that. You should not belive a word that your husband says...He has given up that right IMO. WORDS FROM HIM ARE COMPLETELY WORTHLESS, ACTIONS MEAN EVERYTHING. You need to save yourself BEFORE you can save your marriage. Saving yourself SHOULD NEVER have anything to do with your marriage as so many people belive around here. Being married does not DEFINE who you are as a person. This is all my opinion.

Please understand that I am usually offering a dissenting opinion around here, so I think you should understand where I am coming from. Intelligent and Excellent Marriage Builder die hards like like Snowbelle, Believer, Melody Lane, Faithinme, Bobpure, Andrew A, and a host of many other wise people will usually be on the EXACT opposite side of what I say.

I so want to give you a "oh everything is fine now, just take your WH back and repair the marriage ", but I can't. I fear that there is a lot more to come out of this horror. Recovery (as you can read here and read from Dr Harley) is a long and excritiatingly painful process. I can't tell you what to do, but I will say a prayer for you to do what you feel is right for you. I know that the decision is not an easy one. I think the easiest decision right now for you would be for you to take your WH back into the home and deal with the fallout from there. This is not what I would do, but it is the Marriage Builder philosphy. Goodluck my friend. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Cymanca:
<strong> [QUOTEI do have one question. Your sig. says plan A, Plan A, Plan A away... Do you mean that] </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I may take up the glove for my friend lemon. He is merely taking a feathery swipe at the attitude of some posters to continually preach Plan A, when reality says that you are becoming a doormat to your WS's actions.He is trying to encourage the role of self respect and it's importance in his model of the recovery process. He is not alone in this belief.

How did I do, lemon? </strong>[/QUOTE]

I could not have said it better myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I wish I was as gifted as you in the written word, perhaps that is why I am so controversial around here. Thanks for the post Cyman.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> know this sounds stupid, but I feel if I let him off the hook, he won't really hit bottom, and a real recovery won't happen </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay stop.

Enough already.

Let me first say FROM EXPERIENCE with a successful recovery building from only 8 months out that this is getting a little out of hand already.

The back and forth with the OWH stops NOW. There is NOTHING to be gained from it.

So you two share more information and compare notes.

HOW DOES THIS SAVE YOUR MARRIAGE ?
HOW DO THESE CONVERSATIONS HELP YOUR MARRIAGE?

Let me explain the "basics".... an AFFAIR...is a secret double life. To enable the AFFAIR, and to prolong it's "life" ....countless lies are told. SO many lies are told...that the WS can no longer deciper the truth from the lies.

What happens during this time.... all gets lumped up into a package. By chosing to rebuild the marriage after the affair, it's necessary to unbundle the package and heal from all the stuff you find in there.

JUST BECAUSE YOU FIND STUFF IN THERE...DOESN'T MEAN IT WAS PURPOSELY WITHHELD INFORMATION.

I got caught in the same cinch myself....thinking well if he told me THIS one time...and told me THAT another time...well...he's still lying...he's not serious about fixing this.

Another misconception is the "letting him off the hook" objective. What is that saying ? This sounds like the punishment fitting the crime, especially in the respect to discipline.

As a BS, YOU played just as much a role in the breakdown of the marriage as your WH did. Yes, he chose to have an A, and that is in NO way you're doing, or your fault, but the breakdown of your marriage is equally your burden to carry.

There is no "letting him off the hook". What's done is DONE. You can work through it, or you can choose not to, and that's your decision entirely.

But wanting the WS head on the chopping block isn't the ideal way to recover a better marriage is it ?

I am NOT the WS...but I'm thinking if I WERE one...I'd rather cut my losses...and even if I had no contact with the OP for the rest of my life, I'd not want to sign myself up for a life sentence of repentence either.

So many marriages don't reach their true potential for recovery because we at MB, have begun advocating NONMB principles. Especially letting a WS back into the home. We've all read SAA...and that is dead on, one of Harley's principles. You build a marriage TOGETHER.

rebuttal #1
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">His words mean absolutely nothing....NOTHING AT ALL </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">His words mean ABSOLUTELY EVERTYING, IF they are backed up with his actions. Words alone won't do it, but don't dismiss the power of the spoken word, especially if his actions are backing it up...and I see this.... especially here. He is walking the walk, so he is entitled to talk the talk.

rebuttal#2
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> feel very sorry for you, b/c I am pretty sure you will have him back in the house by next week in an effort at "recovery" and he will not have really suffered the true consequences of his actions </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again I go back to my original point to this post, WHAT ARE THE TRUE CONSEQUENCES ? He is facing humiliation with his boss, himself, his church, his family, his wife, to DO THE RIGHT THING... and furthermore...WHY IS IT NECESSARY FOR HIM TO SUFFER ????

Don't you think everyone suffers enough at some point of infidelity.

To prolong the suffering also does not rebuild your marriage.

I will get off my soap box...respectfully lemon.... I appreciate all you have to say. But don't look at all recoveries as " false", there ARE successes, and they happen all the time. I've challenged you before, don't think I'm one of the exceptions...I think I'm more of the majority on here. It's just the fact the false recoveries draw more attention.

<small>[ November 28, 2004, 03:54 PM: Message edited by: betrayedinjersey ]</small>

Betrayed,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> His words mean ABSOLUTELY EVERTYING, IF they are backed up with his actions. Words alone won't do it, but don't dismiss the power of the spoken word, especially if his actions are backing it up...and I see this.... especially here. He is walking the walk, so he is entitled to talk the talk </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am truly sorry but I can't find ANY instance where her WS has " walked the walk". Perhaps I am reading her posts from a different perspective? When a WS CONTINUOUSLY lies(especially at week 5 after D-Day), what actions can be held up as truthful? Her WS has demonstrated NOTHING to be believed in either his words or his actions. Who among the BS's on this forum has experienced any MEANINGFUL recovery when there are STILL lies spewing from their WS. I strongly feel that Recovery is a zero sum game, you lie about ANYTHING and the sum of your Recovery =0

<small>[ November 28, 2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Cymanca ]</small>

Betrayedinjersey writes: "I will get off my soap box...respectfully lemon.... I appreciate all you have to say. But don't look at all recoveries as " false", there ARE successes, and they happen all the time. I've challenged you before, don't think I'm one of the exceptions...I think I'm more of the majority on here. It's just the fact the false recoveries draw more attention". [/QB][/QUOTE]

Well, you make some good and valid points. I don't quite see it the way you do, but that is ok.. I think you have offered some great points for the OP to consider. I can admit that. I do strongly disagree with you that the WH "has walked the walk". I don't think what you are saying in that his "words mean everything---if they are backed up his actions". That is a cop out and you know it. WHy should you have to qualify that statement. That is the point exactly. Right now it is my opinion that this WS words mean nothing.....ONLY actions. The OP wanted the WS to "come clean"...she needed this for her recovery and he has not done it. Only when caught YET AGAIN lying does he come clean. PLease stop making excuses for the WS...Please !!!!!!!! He continues to be exposed....THIS IS NOT WALKING THE WALK. We can politely agree to disagree. In the end, the OP will do what she feels she has to do irregardless of what you or I think...and that is the way it should be. It is very good that she is getting different view points here. Thank you for your post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ November 28, 2004, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

Lemonman and Cymanca

Ditto that.

Noodle

Why are we ASSUMING that these lies are continued ?
What if they are lies about details ?
Things that happened ?

BIJ..

"what if they are lies about details"

I wouldn't care if he lied about what day of the week it is. Lies are lies. Either that means something to you or it doesn't.

Coming clean only when exposed..and only as clean as the exposure forces..is not coming clean at all..it is continued game playing.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong> BIJ..

"what if they are lies about details"

I wouldn't care if he lied about what day of the week it is. Lies are lies. Either that means something to you or it doesn't.

Coming clean only when exposed..and only as clean as the exposure forces..is not coming clean at all..it is continued game playing.

Noodle </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXACTLY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll go one step further...

if he says they kissed 3 times...and the OW says...oh no...it was more like 5 or 6 times...is that a lie ?

if he says..we met at the hotel 4 times..and she says..oh no...it was more like 5 or 6....is that a lie ?

if he says it started in july...and she says...oh no...it started in march...is that a lie ?

Does ANYONE...see where I'm going with this ?

You're asking 2 people involved in an elusive AFFAIR..that spend MONTHS LYING TO THEMSELVES, EACH OTHER, THEIR FAMILIES....ETC.ETC.ETC...and holding them to the cross until all their tales match up ????????

Just an observation on my part of course.

I haven't see anything in this WS, that indicates he has lied about anything currently that would throw him out of the recovery arena.

HE ADMITTED TO SLEEPING WITH HER.... he didn't have to. It was OW word agains his. He very well could have denied it until the end of time. Does anyone NOT see my point here ?

HE ADMITTED TO SLEEPING WITH HER.....there is nothing beyond this fact that HELPS the recovery.

Not how many times,
where,
what position,
what time it was.

Some BS NEED these details, and I appreciate that, I for one , am not one of them. Nothing I could have found out AFTER the fact, would have healed that wound any quicker. I chose a different path. That's fine, but I'm telling you, as a BS....experiencing DDAY....if someone had tape recorded my conversations for the next 5 weeks, I'm pretty sure my OWN version of events would falter back and forth...and I wasn't the one having the A.

I'm watching pattern develop over here on GQ. And I'm going to just stand back and observe for awhile.

But I'm pretty sure I'm on target with my observations thus far.

Betrayed,

The implication of your last post is that this MB forum is turning away from its founders principles. I take exception to that statement.

Please reread Dr Harley's section on RADICAL HONESTY

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by betrayedinjersey:
<strong>

HE ADMITTED TO SLEEPING WITH HER.... he didn't have to. It was OW word agains his. He very well could have denied it until the end of time. Does anyone NOT see my point here ?


HE ADMITTED TO SLEEPING WITH HER.....there is nothing beyond this fact that HELPS the recovery.

Not how many times,
where,
what position,
what time it was.

Some BS NEED these details, and I appreciate that, I for one , am not one of them. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I think that your statement above says a lot. Perhaps this is why there is such wide spread disagreement over this. No matter though, your obervations are just that....OBSERVATIONS (personal opinions)......not right, not wrong. You are entitled to see it the the way you do. Your personal experiences will always skew your observations....there is no way around that for any of us.

LM

Unless I am have misread the post describing the disclosure..he admitted it to OWH..while still denying it to her..talking out of both sides of his mouth rapid fire.

She said to him point blank..this is your opportunity to come clean and he chose to lie some more [that they had not had sex, only kisses]..he was still trying to lie WHILE she was on the phone with person he had just confessed to.

I would say his credibility is about ZERO.

Does it matter if he said 5 and she said 6?

Absolutely if one of them is a lie. Lying = intentional deceit, and he is engaging in just this.

If you don't know and you say five just to pacify someone..that's a lie.

If you do know and you say that you don't to pacify someone..that's a lie.

He is holding her captive by way of fraud. This is never conducive to recovery.

Noodle

BIJ

I see what you are saying though, and agree..ask me the same Q on 3 different days you may get 3 different answers..unless we are talking facts here, not recollections.

Time and perception can cloud and distort things such as how many..etc..but it is still a lie to give a false answer. If your perception has been distorted to such a degree that you can't honestly give an accurate answer..then say so and accept that your BS may not accept your answer.

I can tell you this much..I will accept an I can't recall very quickly from a known truth teller, and almost never from a known liar.

If he makes a habit of telling the truth/biting the bullet..she will be faaaar more inclined to extend credit on the issues that may genuinely have blurred in memory.

My own H attempted to evade in this way on D day..I asked him..did you use a condom? Now, he had been very forthcoming about any detail I asked until this one..why? He knew what failure to use a condom would mean to me. He said [faltering, guilty expression] "I don't remember" and I said, "so you didn't use one" then quietly "no".

People DO withhold because they know the BS well enough to predict that THIS one bit of info could be the one that changes their mind.

It is a manipulative devise, nothing less.

Noodle