Noodle,

You said it so clearly!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I tried to convey that same idea.......how come my words get so screwy on me????

Bob, listen to what Noodle just wrote!! It is the truth, the whole truth, nothing BUT the truth~!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Time to fish or cut bait! lol (one of my H's expressions) Bob, I think you may be totally surprised when you make this a Non-negotiable boundary in your M!!!!

Blessings,
Atruheart

BOB, I must admit I haver not read all the responses , as I know most are the same .

Your topic raises many questions to me as well .

I have been doing this a bit longer , and still ponder some of the same things ..

MY out look that is confusing is this ,,,,

HOW can one secure N/C "FOREVER" ? and is that right to take away a social setting or activity that the FWS enjoys? When does trust come in ?
When does insecurity leave?
AND the BIG ONE ,,,,, IF the FWS truely knows the mistake , has remorse , is commited and is not in love with OP ,,,, THEN why is SEEING them (bumping into them) a big deal ????

As BS are we going to walk around life wanting our FWS to avoid every member of the opisite sex?

Is this healthy ?? and if they avoid OP does that not mean they could NEVER find someone else in a new social circle ??

MY point ,, well not sure I have one , LOL except to tell ya that these questions will arise in recovery ,,

I am still dealing with it myself , after 2 yrs !
H works 10 mins from OW ,, her circle of friends and family all over the place where he works ....

NOW he says he avoids all routes , places ect that he thinks he may BUMP into anyone of them ....

BUT my thing is HOW can ya really do that ? Like ya said , do ya change the locks , bolt the door , install LOW-JACK ???

NOW I know this is the beging for you so it is still freash for your W , so I know the concern , but think long run . WHITCH is how I believe the FWS thinks ...

They think Oh my GOD I have to hermit myself to secure this person ... (it is extreme but they think this way JMO)

I know I may have not helped , but thought I would through stuff your way maybe to understand what she may be thinking inside ...

MY H does not post but these are some of the things he has stated.

Some I find to be understanding , fearing that he will pay for a mistake forever .
One part of me thinks he should pay for the rest of his life ,, but I know this is not correct.

Luck to YOU !

A Very Wise person once told me that "Luck" is when Oppurtunity and Preparedness meet!!

Blessings,
Atruheart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Firstly, Bob, you must realise that my advice comes from a person not in recovery so it is probably wrong.

If the funeral is a really big big deal and the person who has died has been an acquaintance of your wife's for years, I think the two of you should attend the funeral. Yes, I believe that NC is the only way forward but death is an exceptional circumstance. I would hate anyone telling me I couldn't attend a funeral for whatever reason. If the two of you are together, surely they can't have a little 'tete a tete'. I also believe that your wife shouldn't give up her karate. It defines her. It is who she has been for years. But she does need to put you first. Can't you just leave that book (SAA) lying around in the loo? She just might get the bigger picture.

Firstly, Bob, you must realise that my advice comes from a person not in recovery so it is probably wrong.

If the funeral is a really big big deal and the person who has died has been an acquaintance of your wife's for years, I think the two of you should attend the funeral. Yes, I believe that NC is the only way forward but death is an exceptional circumstance. I would hate anyone telling me I couldn't attend a funeral for whatever reason. If the two of you are together, surely they can't have a little 'tete a tete'. I also believe that your wife shouldn't give up her karate. It defines her. It is who she has been for years. But she does need to put you first. Can't you just leave that book (SAA) lying around in the loo? She just might get the bigger picture.

TT I have to respond:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Firstly, Bob, you must realise that my advice comes from a person not in recovery so it is probably wrong.

If the funeral is a really big big deal and the person who has died has been an acquaintance of your wife's for years, I think the two of you should attend the funeral.

If this were a very good friend, a relative or a very close work-associate I would agree. Aquaintences aren't in that catagory.....funerals are for the living.....does she know the W well???

Yes, I believe that NC is the only way forward but death is an exceptional circumstance. I would hate anyone telling me I couldn't attend a funeral for whatever reason.

Sometimes it's not about what we "like"......did we like the A??? no!

If the two of you are together, surely they can't have a little 'tete a tete'. I also believe that your wife shouldn't give up her karate. It defines her. It is who she has been for years.

If "who we are" is involved at all with the OP then we need to "look" at who we are.....Aren't we afterall not "who we were" after DD???

But she does need to put you first.

So how does any of the above put him first??

Can't you just leave that book (SAA) lying around in the loo? She just might get the bigger picture. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No books lying around! Talking about what's in the books!! there is an idea......no more beating around the bush and leaving little "hints" in R! Bob you know this!!
You only have to make it clear what you require to feel "safe" in your M Bob!!

Blessings,
Atruheart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sorry Atruheart but I'm a wishy washy kind of girl. Always been too easy going for my own good. The fact is to me that recovery involves a lot of control. It has been to my detriment but I have never wanted my husband telling me what I should or shouldn't do, and likewise I allowed him his space. I think Bob and I have this in common and we've been walked over because of our 'good nature'. It is hard to change who you are. In all honesty, I don't particularly want to change. I quite like who I am.

So, like I said before Bob, I am not in recovery so listen to the experts.

Bob,
I am now realizing what NC means for myself. I had an A 16 years ago and after it ended we "stayed friends". There was actually a period of time when we had NC except maybe once every 6 months to 1 yr for work and we were fine. Fast forward to 2 months ago and guess what? We were back in contact talking about our difficult situations and it resparked in a flash. Although I ended it before sex but the emotional part came right back. Scared the H--L out of me.

I don't know if your wife reads this board but it has been helpful to me. Nc means NC!

* Noodle - regarding your suggested " jumping off place". I don't think theres any need for such a construct.

Every hurdle so far could have been a "jumping off place".

When she didn't stop contacting OM after D-day , had I said " go" she would have gone.

Had I belived the spiteful thing sshe told me and did to me and my kids during the worst of the fog, I should have kicked her out quite righteously.

When she first told me she would dispose of the OM trigger letters etc I could've 'jumped off'.

Fcat is I DIDN'T jump off not out of cowardace but bravery persistence and love.

I have not been so black and white brutal in my treatment of Squid since d-day as you and others have advocated Noodle, but in TRUTH progress towards recovery fom antirley hopless and dark place has been magnificent and miraculous in only SIX WEEKS of NC.

Also, in truth, Squid knows I will not considerher working on our M if NC is violated. She is grumbling BUT has VOLUNTARILY avoided every possible contact since NC-day. SHE has chosen to avoid tournaments etc.

She may not go to this funeral yet (OM isn;t going BTW - his GF confirmed today). We'll see what she decides.

I see this as a growth process where MY overwhelming effort initially is matched then overtaken by a de-fogged Squid and when we reach a partnership of mutual care - we have recovered.

I am a commercial negotiator by profession, and while a series of 'drawn lines' may feel righteous, they are not always the way to achieve the objective particularly when one party is temporarily logic-restricted , like with an OP or WS.

So I don;t see this a jumping-off nexus noodle, I see it as a difficult POJA with a very narrow margin for felxibility in the solution.

OF COURSE Squid isn't going to leave me and her life over attending fricking karate community events. I have given her the option so to do every day since d-day and even fogged up, out of love with me and In 'love' with OM she chose to stay in my home and in my bed.

Patience and felxibility in negotiation isn;t a weakness Noodle, its made me a lot of money over the years.

Just because I CAN in ALL SMUGNESS treat Squid like a bad puppy I choose not to. And can you name me ANY other couple who ever trod these boards who have come so far so fast as squid and I ?

Another reason i will not slam down the gauntlet is because I am in part responsible for her selfishness. Considering my strength of personality ( shall we say euphemistally!) in other areas of my life, Squid has always wrapped me around her finger. She KNEW I hated to live in a silent brooding house for days at a time. My job has been very demanding with lots of foriegn travel for many years and returning home from a hard negotiation to a sulking, brooding Squid was more than I could bare for long. So I'd offer some dilution of what she wanted but she'd get her own way ususally.

Now I am retraining her to put ME first. AND she can't sulk or brood because she FOR ONCE has done a really bad thing and only has an intact LIFE because of my grace to her.

So...Since I tore up those copies of the OMs letters we have talked more openly and honestly, for good and bad, than at any time in years.

This is a HUGE progression. And you think I should jump if Squid doesn't overturn her instinct and remaining fog in a second ?

If there had been no progress I would consider an ultimatum, but with SUCH progress, I will continue to politik and cajole consistently with occasional open prods to make progress where possible. We will have more rows, but I have learned to get my points across without LBing these months ( a life skill!) but I will not make our life and recovery a gymkhana of fences for squid to jump at my behest.

I may change my mind of course ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

We have a discussion about my safety coming tonight - I sowed the seed with a text message from work.

* ATH, you weren;t harsh ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I wasn;t advocating a dilute form of NC, just asking how to police it without clenching my butt every time I contact OM GF ( I posted last week how I'd like to stop contact with her but I need to while Squid want sto do stuff like this funeral).

When you say I should make this a non negotiable boundary I am not sure how to police that.

Leave her if she attends this funeral, along with my kids and chattels?

Thats my challenge.

I have told her that NC is critical. I will reinforce that message strongly but lovingly tonight.

* TT - read mynoodle reply - I'm not even slightly 'wishy washy' but I have avoided conflict with Squid owing to my NEED for a refuge after work over the years. THAT is what she abused.

Bob,

The *jumping off place* is my image of your construct.

You have consistently stated that if there does not come a point in which she gives 100% overt committment..you are going to walk. You have been also very consistent in expressing that the karate needs to end decisively..that she needs to choose the needs of her family above the desire to recreate and that NC must be permanent else you will not be satisfied. I am basing my posts to you on what lines you have drawn in the sand and only suggested that the time frame is up to you..if not this time..then next or the one after..when she's *ready* or when you can't stand her complacency at whatever plateau you have been on too long to continue to be comfortable as well.

I do agree that every contact is an opportunity to lose ground..so unless she was extremely close to this person..I'd send flowers and a card but decline to attend. If she must attend, it might not be completely useless to ask OM if he would consider not attending..but that's a pretty far reach.

Most importantly, I think is to be above board with her..rather than trying to influence her. This has been successfull in the past. She made HUGE strides when asked make a choice. It is possible that your wife is one who does not read between the lines very well. She may even be annoyed by your attempts to influence and may prefer just to be told the what, why, when. Some people just respond to different measures.

If you are really, truly bothered by this..and it seems from your posts that you are..what are you waiting for?

Noodle

[edited to add..I agree 100% that patience and flexibility in negotiation is not weak but very effective and the ability to do so a great indicator of success, only things that ARE non-negotiable should be presented as such..the trick is to determine before hand which category a situation lies..if this funeral and the probable contact is a risk you are willing to take [shrugs] take it..it could go either way. At some point though..you have been very adamant that what I have addressed will become non-negotiable and it sounded like you were at that place..I perhaps have misread irritation as intolerance, sorry for that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ]

<small>[ November 30, 2004, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

Bob

In following your story over the past months, I've been struck by the picture of Squid that you present. You make her sound like a cute, spoiled child, who you feel guilty for parenting badly. I keep having to remind myself that this is a grown woman, a wife.

Of course, people may be quite different in reality from their cyber-presentation - but I do wonder - do you see her, at some level, as a child? Do you feel the need to parent her? Because to be blunt, Bob, you don't often seem to regard her as an equal adult, with the capacity for adult decisions. You are constantly 'guiding' her (and there's a fine line between waiting for the fog to thin, and patronising).

Right now, you are not in this situation with Squid as adult-to-adult. Of course, she's still in withdrawal, fog still lingers, etc., but despite that, she's a grown-up who made grown-up mistakes and caused grown-up agony. She needs to fix it in a grown-up way. She's not going to do that on her own, from what you've said. The only way she's going to get there is if YOU set your boundaries firmly, decide what you will not tolerate, and fix on a timescale for her to 'get it'. If she decides that your boundaries are too demanding, and she simply won't meet them - then she has made an adult decision. You can't spend the rest of your life protecting her from her own immaturity, Bob. And if those boundaries are REALLY your bottom line - and not a method of control - then you can't let them be violated without damaging yourself.

Why can't you say something like "Squid, I have a right to be safe within my marriage. What will you do to convince me that I am safe with you?" Then leave it in her court.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, Bob, but at some point you're going to have to let her grow up. You tell us that you conflict-avoided and indulged her for years. Are you still doing it? And if so, why? What's in it for you?

TA

NO contact ... means NO contact... "it's not rocket surgery" ... a quote from one of the most successful FWHs ever. A no-brainer.

Pep

TA you think I haven't said those exact words to Squid fifty times ?

I am asking for advice on how to police NC not on the worth of NC.

I know the worth and criticality of NC.

Not one hour ago I restated that extraordinary avoidance of C is required to make my continued work on our M worthwhile and sustainable to me.
Squid's now miserable but fully aware, once more of the mndate for NC that she must fulfil if she wants to stay with me.

I am on top of ALL that.

My question is: the HELP I need is: HOW do I POLICE that ?
She KNOWS if she attends the funeral it will risk NC violation ( It won't - OM GF confirmed today he didn't know the man and is not attending) but I am waiting to see what Squid does. Am I being mean? Maybe but I need to test her NC commitment without risk.

Also PLEASE read what I wrote. Squid has avoided NC violation voluntarily several times so far. She has not lifted a finger to contact him AND has avoided potential C since then. The only thing she HASN'T done is PROMISE to take extraordinary precautions to avoid NC in future.

This is because half her life is the sport that presents a contact risk.
some of you think she can switch that off overnight. I do not. I actually think shes done pretty well switching off as much as she HAS in six week of NC.

Once again my Q is HOW DO I POLICE NC ?

If she attends a toruney against my will and he's there what do I do ? Leave with my kids ? Change the locks ?

The boundary is MY boundary not HERS you see.

And she IS a bit of a spoilt child who absolutely HATES being fully and genuinely in the wrong for the first time in her life.

I am not patronising her by 'parenting' her I am trying to accommmodate her traits as best I can while we move towards recovery.

What perhaps I haven't conveyed to you fine folks is the humour, love, fierce intelligence of the girl. She is too smart to allow me to treat her like a sulky child.

Any help on my Q of 'how to police NC without LBing?'

Bob

When you ask her the question, what's her answer?

TA

hmmm, this is a yucky question now isn't it?

At this very moment I would not be able to find away to police my WW activites without it looking like a LB.

The best I could do is simply ask if OM showed up and if so what kind of interaction there was. I would have to trust her to tell me the truth.

For me what it would realy come down to is if I am able to trust that she will be ok away from me. If I can not get to that point in a reasonable amount of time then I will have to end things for both our sakes.

For me to feel like I have to police her moves seems like a life time of craziness not to mention how WW will feel after a while of being FWW.

Her answer is " I AM keepng NC. I could contact any time I wanted but I don't and I haven't. I'm just saying that we may meet again someday by accident".

Th eprinciple of NC is well established its the EXTRAORDINARY MEASURES that are not in place.

Incidentally our discussion tonight went a bit far and I have to tell her som info from OM GF, i.e. that OM had boasted of his conquest of her to her fellow referees and to her club coach. basically the whole spoort infrastructure of karate in the UK know about the affair.

This coupled with a discussion we had later about teh trauma her niece is in pushed her over the edge and she cried as thoug heartbroken.

Her mom is dying of cancer
Her sisters' life is mess over this new baby and subsequent violence/police involvement
Her old friend in Karate died at 56 last week.
Sh ehad an affair and the awful realization is hitting her.
I told her tonight that basically she is going to need to give up all external Karate activity - something that gave her huge pleasure since she was a teen.

See ? THATS another reason I won't be self-rightously demanding to her. Her lifes' pretty crap right now, afair or no affair.

She asked tonight what she needed to do to make me feel 'safe'. I told her. She was gutted.

Hard times. We prayed together tonight for the baby and he rneice however . Thats a start.

Bob,
There is no answer to your question ~”Any help on my Q of 'how to police NC without LBing?”~ as it’s framed because the question itself is based on faulty logic.
1. Adults in a relationship who expect to be accorded the rights and prerogatives of adults in a relationship need to behave like adults. It’s that simple. Not only should they not need to be policed, it’s stridently unfair for them to behave in a way that places the burden of being a “policeman” on the other party. Why should you need to always be the big bad disciplinarian simply because your WW demands adult prerogatives with out accepting adult responsibilities?
2. I respectfully disagree. The issue in this situation isn’t how to do anything with out LBing. The issue is you making a final and definitive decision once and for all regarding the level of tolerance you choose to exhibit as to her behavior and then making her aware of what that is. If you don’t define your boundaries, then you can’t blame her if she steps outside those boundaries can you?
3. The argument that you are in some way responsible for your WW’s selfish and disrespectful behavior because you never demanded an end to it in the past is totally fallacious. She is responsible for her behavior not you. You are, however, responsible for your behavior. That you accepted less then was acceptable in the past is not to your credit. That you are thinking of continuing to do so now is even less to your credit.
4. The conclusion you come to that because she is, lets say 90% better today then she was 6 weeks ago is also fallacious. Unless you are willing to accept a wife who is a cheat about 10% of the time. Progress don’t count when it comes to cheating. Either they do or they don’t. You can’t be a little bit dishonest any more then you can be in No Contact just “most” of the time.
5. You don’t have to do anything if she decides to be so disrespectful as to ignore the imperatives involved in this decision; the decision that she alone will make by the way. All you need to do is make your view point clear to her and then sit back and wait. If she decides to ignore the obvious then you now understanding what the marriage (post affair) still means to her. What you choose to do with this knowledge is of course up to you but if she does choose to ignore the obvious then LBing I would guess, is the least of your problems.
6. That you choose to equivocate and mis-represent this issue to yourself, trying to convince yourself that its something other then it is, does you no credit.
7. As a negotiator you understand that one doesn’t ever negotiate with ones self. What is she willing to put on the table? What do you have to gain by allowing her to not only just once again act in this disrespectful manner but to continue to act in this disrespectful manor?
8. You know the price you may have to pay if you tell her that any choice other then your choice regarding this issue is unacceptable. You also know the price you will have to pay if you don’t tell her that any choice other then your choice regarding this issue is unacceptable.

Bob with all due respect, could you tell me what part of Pepper’s post you didn’t understand? No contact means no contact. If you haven’t grasped this very simple concept then why would your WW?
So sorry Bob.
Coach

Coach I must be posting in Klingon tonight... * sigh *

NC is NOT NEGOTIABLE and my FWW KNOWS THAT.
She is coming to terms with it.

I will not accept any further avoidable contact.

I find it bizarre that consistency of EN meeting & 'lighthousing' is the watchword for plan A yet many posters here would have me drop that like a brick and make an ultimatum to my FWW as soon a the A ended.

What would you hav me do at my wife;s gentle VERBAL recalcitrance at my NC request ? Call in teh D lawyers right now?

Take the kids to Dubai where theres no CSA reciprocal agreement?

You are all demanding that aftermonths of plan A 'lighthousing' I demand of a still dysfunctional woman something wholly painful to her on pain of my leaving with the kids, despit eteh fact that she already understands this requirements and has so far made every effort to keep NC inviolate.

As we say in Dudley "F'k that for a game of soldiers".
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her answer is " I AM keepng NC. I could contact any time I wanted but I don't and I haven't. I'm just saying that we may meet again someday by accident".
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is that good enough for you?

Is it even true? From what you say, OM doesn't want her anywhere near him. So what's it worth?

OK,so she's still somewhat fogged. But what wóuld being completely de-fogged look like to you? What is your minimum requirement in terms of her enthusiastic committment to the marriage? What's you timeline on that?

How will you chart progress?

Wouldn't it be reasonable for you to require MC for you both, and some kind of personal investigation for her into why she did what she did?


TA

Mr. Pure,

that OM had boasted of his conquest of her to her fellow referees and to her club coach. basically the whole spoort infrastructure of karate in the UK know about the affair.

I was wondering when that would rear its ugly head.

I would destroy the [censored]. No [censored] to worry about, no NC to police.

The lovely Squid must now see OM for what he is and should not be wishing him well anymore.

As for the OM GF...collateral damage. All's fair in love and war.

k