</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bob Pure:
She asked tonight what she needed to do to make me feel 'safe'. I told her. She was gutted.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why was she gutted?

Was anything you asked her to do (for you to feel safe) disrespectful or unreasonable?

Know what I asked my H to do? ... Go to AA and never drink another drop of alcohol ... ever.

His initial response ---> "What if I just stop drinking, then I won't need to go to AA."

Because I had discussed this in advance with MC during a solo session ... I said ---> "This is what I need to continue being married to you. AA and total sobriety. Agree or not, it's your choice."

Timing is important ... but knowing what your bottom line is ... is crucial to the continuation of your recovery.

Recovery is HARD because you must ask new things of yourself.

Pep

<small>[ November 30, 2004, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Not one hour ago I restated that extraordinary avoidance of C is required to make my continued work on our M worthwhile and sustainable to me.
Squid's now miserable but fully aware, once more of the mndate for NC that she must fulfil if she wants to stay with me.

I am on top of ALL that.

My question is: the HELP I need is: HOW do I POLICE that ?

You stay alert for the next 24 months. You ask her for her commitment. You explain what transparency means ... there are no secrets ... you are free to explore her cell phone records ---> because you have her code ... you explore her email ---> you know all her passwords.... you have access to all her financial stuff... and you do not need to ask her is she has been calling or emailing ---> you are free to look for yourself at anytime you choose.

Pep

Bob,

You must have known that I would weigh in on this one eventually! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I have been quietly reading along and watching your responses, and I do finally have something to say. It seems to me as if WE are speaking klingon to you. I believe most who have responded back to you fully understand what you are asking: "How to I police NC for a lifetime?" "That seems so unfair and I'm not sure I want all that burden." "Squiddy agrees to NC but thinks it's okay to C by accident." "She is demolished if I enforce NC." Bob, I mean this sincerely...I think we hear what you're saying and understand.

HOWEVER, I sort of feel as if we are speaking to you in a language you do not understand, so let me try again and see if I can translate into something you understand...

I do not know how it is by you in the U.K., but here in the States, I was involved in Tae Kwon Do for a while in the city of Denver, population 1.2 million. And in my fairly big city, the Tae Kwon Do community is fairly small--especially amongst those who attain black belt and are referees. Those few people have to train together, with/against each other, so they can practice their own skills with someone who has similar or higher skills. Thus, it is fairly exclusive, fairly tight-knit, and fairly irreplacable. If one of the black belt refs here in the Denver metro area were to have an affair with another black belt refs, it's not as if there is another community of black belts that a person can turn to or join. HOWEVER, attaining the level of black belt is the kind of achievement and commitment that someone doesn't just want to walk away from either. It takes a lot of time, practice, skill, knowledge, determination, etc. Soooo...it might be roughly equivalent to someone getting a PhD and then just walking away. Is this even kind of close to what it's like by you?

If that is the case, then your Squiddy is struggling with the idea of having attained her PhD and now, because of her choices and behavior, she has to walk away from her field of expertise. Some parts of her are kind of desperately saying, "I spent all that Time and Energy getting that PhD--isn't there some way that all that time won't be wasted? Isn't there some way I can still USE my PhD? OMG, I sacrificed so much to get that darn PhD, and now I can't even use it! There must be SOME way that I can!" Can you see that?

Of course, she can't. The consequence of her choice to engage in an A is that she has to voluntarily, willingly give up the activity that gave her not only an identity, but also she was a big shot. She will no longer be a big shot.

The keys words there, though, Bob, are "VOLUNTARILY" and "WILLINGLY." You ask us how you can possibly police NC for a lifetime, and how you can make her understand that extraordinary measures are necessary--and the short answer is: you can't. It's not your job to enforce this. It is HER job. That's why one poster suggested that you are reacting toward Squiddy like she is a child. She is a grown woman, Bob. She is your equal partner. The fact of that matter is, she is going to have to endure some things that are very unpleasant to her as a result of the A. The fact of the matter is, she is going to have to WANT to enforce NC for a lifetime HERSELF.

See, a wise BS will periodically continue to double check...confirm...verify. But an even wiser WS will transparently SHOW their BS where they are, what they're doing, who is going, ways to reach them, etc. A WS who is truly, firmly committed to recovery does not have to be "policed". The burden is place on THEM to show the BS that they are maintaining NC. It is HER job, Bob, not yours.

By taking the stance that you have to police her NC, you are taking away her personal responsibility. Now, if she "runs into him on accident" it's because you didn't check his schedule! Or, it's because the OM's GF lied to you or he lied to his GF! It's not "her" responsiblity! And what we are trying to say to you, Bob, is not so much that Squiddy isn't doing well or you aren't doing well or any of that. What we are saying is, STOP TAKING HER RESPONSIBILITIES. When you do not allow someone to be responsible for themself and their choices, then you are tip-toeing around the issue of being co-dependent and enabling.

So, if you take Squiddy's responsibility and "police" her NC, then you are enabling her to make a poor choice and blame you -AND- you put yourself in the position of being controlling or thinking you are in control. You need to take your hands off the wheel on this one and let Squiddy drive. Let HER show YOU how she is maintaining NC. Let HER be the lead on this. Let HER carry the burden of "proving" to you who, what, where, why, when and how. Let HER be a fully grown woman, and stop treating her like she needs you to "police" her.

If you have communicated your boundary effectively, and you feel comfortable that she fully understands it, then you have to take your hands OFF the reins and let her be in control of herself. She's not an idiot, Bob--she's a smart lady! So she knows what's at stake here, and she knows what the price could be if she makes the choice to C. BUT...in the end, it is her choice to make. You (Bob) may not like to hear this, but she may decide to C no matter what the consequence is...many WS's do. By the same token, she may step up to the plate and show you what a smart lady she is and how much she values you.

You will never know until you let her take personal responsibility.


CJ

Hey Bob,

I have to agree with CJ on this one...

Have you ever wondered how I can be over here for over a year and not worry one bit about my W straying again?

Now granted, all of my W's OM have long been gone from our lives, and we don't have a clue as to where any of them are living now... so in that respect, it is a bit easier than having one of them living in the same town... But regardless, if my W wanted to have another A, it would be her choice and there's absolutely nothing I could do to stop her.

Bob, I don't worry about my W straying again. Want to know why? I don't worry because I'm focused on building her self esteem up, I'm focused on telling her how much I love her... I'm focused on being the best H that I can for her and the best father that I can be for our girls... I explained my boundaries to her and she clearly knows what they are... Now it's up to my W to maintain those boundaries.

You and Squid are still very early on in your rebuilding process... you both seem to be doing great, but like CJ said, if you continue to focus on enforcing the NC boundaries with Squid, then YOU are taking that responsibility away from her.

This isn't easy stuff, but you're doing a great job... you aren't 'wrong' for feeling the way that you feel... I just hate to see you spinning your wheels over this when you could be applying your efforts to other areas that will gain you more mileage in the long run...

I'm praying for you and Squid... and I know that God will continue to watch over you both...

Semper Fi,
RIf

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bob Pure:
<strong>I find it bizarre that consistency of EN meeting & 'lighthousing' is the watchword for plan A yet many posters here would have me drop that like a brick and make an ultimatum to my FWW as soon a the A ended.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>You are all demanding that aftermonths of plan A 'lighthousing' I demand of a still dysfunctional woman something wholly painful to her on pain of my leaving with the kids, despite the fact that she already understands this requirements and has so far made every effort to keep NC inviolate.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all, Bob, just so we are clear, we are not demanding anything from you. You are perfectly free to do whatever you wish, including ignoring us, staying status quo, or having a revenge A of your own. I didn't say those are WISE choices, but you are completely free to make them if you wish!

HOWEVER, what we are trying to do is to encourage you and Squiddy along to DO better and to BE better. To return to where you two were before the A only means that you're still vulnerable to an A, so hopefully you two will be BETTER--individually and as a couple. Well, how can you be better if you don't change some of your patterns of thinking and behavior? Thus, when we see something that needs challenging, we challenge. When we see that you need to speak up--we tell you that you need to speak up. When we see that you need to be a little more firm--we tell you that you need to be a little more firm. When we see that you need to take your hands off Squiddy's responsibilities--we tell you that too! But we don't DEMAND anything of you; we request that you be more of a man than you've ever been before (that's all). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Now, regarding the "lighthouse vs. ultimatum" inconsistency...

It is not as inconsistent as it might first appear. As you recall, Plan A is not "bend over and take it up the ___" or "become a doormat and kiss up to your WS" or "meet all WS needs at all costs no matter how they treat you." NOPE!!! A true Plan A is reconnecting with the smart, funny, pleasant, playful, honest, dedicated, faithful, open, vulnerable person you are meant to be...the person who initially attracted the WS in the first place! Be who you have the potential to be. Stop doing the things that destroy love instead of build it. Make the effort to be attractive and not destructive. Give a rat's patootie. Get real with yourself and notice the ways that you've had a bad spirit and harmed your partner--and get JUST as real and notice the ways in which you are no longer the person you once were. THAT is Plan A. You are a lighthouse to your WS because you reconnect with your True Self and that light--that FIRE--shines from your very being.

As you get into true Plan A, you also regain lost self-confidence, lost self-esteem, and lost self-value. You see who you really are, and you think, "Wow. I am worthy of being loved, of being treated well, and of being treated with RESPECT. I am worthy of an equal, intimate partner, to whom I am transparent and who is tranparent to me." In your specific instance, Bob, I see you for who you really are: a gentle, committed, loving hero of a man who is so valuable that he barely fits into his tarnished silver armour!

So when you see yourself like that--it is not an ultimatum to say "Partner, I want to be with someone whom I value who also values me. I no longer have any desire to be with someone who would treat me like a doormat or devalue me or disrespect me. So I'm letting you know right now that I will no longer tolerate those things in a life partner."

In a way, it is rather dispassionate when you say it...as if you are just stating a fact. Did you see what Pep told her H? "AA and no drinking" In effect, she was saying, "Partner, I want to be with someone whom I value who also values me. I no longer have any desire to be with someone who would drink, who would not be in active AA recovery, who would devalue me or disrespect me. So I'm letting you know right now that I will no longer tolerate those things in a life partner. You are perfectly free to choose to stop drinking and attend AA--or not. But I am informing you that I will not be with someone like that."

I did the same for my exH. I had three bottom lines:
1) A marriage that was mutually satisfying (meaning, some of my needs are met too) with 100% fidelity--PERIOD. No cybersex, porno, email sex, chat room sex, ONS, NOTHING!
2) Dealing with physical and mental illnesses via doctors/psych docs, support groups, drugs, diet, and counseling.
3) Dealing with rage abuse via protecting me and not blaming me! The abuse had to stop--PERIOD.

I got to a point where I felt kind of serene about it, because I knew I was too valuable to continue to let myself be treated so poorly. It wasn't an ultimatum at all. He was free to chose and he did--and I'm not trying to "make" him change his choice. This is why lemonman sometimes gets so passionate--because he can see that people are valueable and don't deserve to be treated like WS sometimes treat BS--and he wishes they would become BRAVE and love themself enough to enforce respectful treatment.

Anyway...does that make sense?? We are not telling you to give your Squiddy an ultimatum..."Stop being a karate ref or I'm leaving you." That's a demand! We are telling you to continue your Plan A work. Continue being the man you are intended to be. Continue reconnecting to your True Self. Then you will realize that you are valuable enough that you have a bottom line.


CJ

P.S. I bet now it make a little more sense when I said that I cried when I discovered my ex's last A, not because I couldn't trust HIM, but because I was afraid I couldn't trust ME. I had a bottom line. He didn't just cross it, he ran over it. Did I love myself enough to mean it? Was I valuable enough to not be trampled like that? I cried soul tears because I really loved that man and wanted to be with him, but I also KNEW that if I let it go this time, I would let any "bottom line" be crossed.

<small>[ December 01, 2004, 02:13 AM: Message edited by: FaithfulNewCJ ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 3isacrowd:
<strong>AND the BIG ONE ,,,,, IF the FWS truely knows the mistake , has remorse , is commited and is not in love with OP ,,,, THEN why is SEEING them (bumping into them) a big deal ????</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good point… And, NO CONTACT FOR LIFE is only practically possible if the FWS and OP living on different planets. Even if the FWS and OP moving across the country and living on opposite sides of the world, there is still a chance of bumping into each other (one day on an airplane or whatever <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). My point is - there is no way to GUARANTEE that ‘accidental’ contact will never happen. Yes, precautions can be make to prevent this from happening, but there is no way to guarantee this (unless the FWS or OP living in prison or lying 3 feet under the ground <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

<small>[ December 01, 2004, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

NC is the ideal and as much as possible the goal. So if perchance there one happens to be in the same place as the OP then I would hope the ONE not engage in any way but go the other way, leave.

I would pray for the strength to do that and that mine won't feel compelled to 'be polite' and say even two words to the other person. I would interpret even those two words as a threat. I think it is that important.

After all, mine thought he could handle just calling to find out how she was...thus beginning one of several false recoveries. He/we did end participation with that sport that the whole family was involved in for about 6 yrs whre the A started.

Thank God we've been in what I believe is real recovery now for 2 yrs.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by krusht:
<strong> Mr. Pure,

that OM had boasted of his conquest of her to her fellow referees and to her club coach. basically the whole spoort infrastructure of karate in the UK know about the affair.

I was wondering when that would rear its ugly head.

I would destroy the [censored]. No [censored] to worry about, no NC to police.

The lovely Squid must now see OM for what he is and should not be wishing him well anymore.

As for the OM GF...collateral damage. All's fair in love and war.

k </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am tempoted every day to do this. There a re a couple of reasons why I stay my hand.

* U have to face myself in the mirror. OM has nothing today - lost his estranged son, his mother, his GF is as capricious as can be imagined, is in counselling for bereavement and relationships, his on knows about the and he hates his father.

I would enjoy destroying him far too much for me to be happy with myself afterwards. I pity him. Shoot me for having compassion....

* I would fire my last nuke regarding OM other than physically damaging him. I feel happier with an undrawn sword I can use against him whenever I need.

* His GF asked me point blank NOT to destroy him as he needs SOME self esteem in order to recover himself in their R and in his wider life.

Interesting thought though....

Bob,

OM has nothing today - lost his estranged son, his mother, his GF is as capricious as can be imagined, is in counselling for bereavement and relationships, his on knows about the and he hates his father.

Sounds like that Karma bus keeps backing over him.

You are describing a broken, embittered man. He has probably aged 10 years in the last 4 months. Where is the threat? Maybe Squid would see OM and puke her guts out.

Too much importance (and energy) right now on NC?

OR..you contact mr pond scum and let him know you have the goods on him and if HE doesn't back out of the Karate arena you will destroy him. You are doing this out of self preservation only.

And yes, you are kicking him while he is down, but the timing is right.

Your compassion is touching, but he still is the _____ that pursued your W, then bragged about it to his buddies.

IMHO

k

krusht I know what you're saying but as with every frickin' thing in this foul infidelity mess, the dynamics are complex.Yes the karma bus has jacknifed him at eighty miles per hour and he is a broken man.

BUT teh best chance of him staying dark is for him to recover his R with his GF and son. His GF very honestly explianed that if I destroyed him as they BOTH know I am able to she would have no reason to recover with him.

I told OM in no uncertain terms that ANY threat to my family again, real or perceived and my wrath shall be fierce. I sorted out all the contact numbers, his child protection approval number, his registered charity number...everything. It wouldn't take me more than ten minutes to utterly ruin him. BUT it would also expose my Squid's terrible behaviour to the wider world too. Its almost a MAD scenario that I will only use under extreme duress.

I realised long ago that I am a two hour drive away from breaking his legs. Yet I don't.

And his scummy, boasting behaviour might just be the thing that makes Squid hate him.

I dunno. I dunno what to do for the best.

I YEARN for simpler days krusht I really do.

How are you doing anyway mate? Long time no hear ?

Bob,
Thanks for asking. I started my own thread to fill you in. Don't want to threadjack.
k

Well we had hours of very unpleasant discussion last night. Squid accused me of selfishness in wanting to control her life - even a friends' funeral. Ironic, huh ?

I explained why NC was so important referencing the books and examples where I learned about affair dynamics but she was scathing about them, despite never having read one.

I did a semi-LB by telling her how MB and others predicted that she would feel right now, s a demonstration of teh predictable dynamics of affairs. I think this was fairly accurate as she was very unhappy after this. " doesn't prove anything !!"

I explained using examples as to how I had become a karate widower - with Squid's sport and social life ALWAYS on EVERY SINGLE OCCASION taking precedence over my , our marriage and even our kids. She wailed in denial but could not argue with the facts. She hates blame. Can't handle it. never could.

I explained that I do not want only to recover from her infidility but that I want to recover a mutually satifying marriage.
Then a small breakthrough : - she said that she did too but that it hard to give up everything she enjoys all at once as a punishment.

I explained again that NC is not a punishment it is:
1) required to prevent any chance of the A reigniting, as so soon after d-day both parties have not had a chance to review the LB deposits made by the other and see that many or most were lies, falsehoods and contrived.
2) A simple gesture of love to ME that she will take extraordinary precautions not to humilate and hurt me by expecting me to tolerate 'platonic' meetings between her and the man who raped my marriage.

She understands this but is reeling from the realization that she will not be able to do any more Karate tournaments. and social events where he may be.
She admitted that she has REAL difficulty with accepting blame, and also with giving up stuff she loves but she will work with me on doing so if I will help her because she loves me.

We also POJAed today's funeral. I explained that I was hurt that she intended to attend even if she knew OM was there. She denied this saying that she would not have gone were she sure of his attendence.

As in this instance OM GF has confirmed he is not attending this funeral today, and Squid was scheduled to drive the club minibus to the funeral she should attend today with my blessing BUT that ANY future NC risk should be NO by default,with any mitigating circumstances being POJAed between us.

She agreed and was appeciative that I 'let' her go.

She asked what I would do if she deliberately met OM again. I replied honestly that I would stop all effort in M recovery and divert my energies into my own and our kids rcovery and would do what was best for US. " does that mean you'd split us up?" she asked.

" No, it means YOU would split us up". I replied.

I will not go through this every time theres a chance of NC violation via her feckin' sport.

When she returns from the funeral tonight I will remind her of this discussion so she can't conveniently deny such in future.

I'm so tired of this battle. With some respite I have had a fist clenched in my guts now for almost five months, watching every word, carrying the recovery burden for all my family for much of that time. I explained this to Squid and said she needed to step up HARD to the mark if we're going to recover our M.

She replied " but I love you - now more than ever".

I replied " feeling love isn't enough. ACTING love is whats needed. Putting my safety and our M ahead of your convenience for the first time in years".

Silence and wet eyes. Then bedtime.

We're "OK" this morning, but we both know this has been a hard time.

I love the girl and I have been an REMAIN patient AAND pleased at the great progress in the ten weeks since NC but I do not relish more of this.

She is still a little foggy, but not so foggy that she cannot think rationally of cause and effect/right and wrong.

Ah well this dip in the recovery rollercoaster has been gentler than the last one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Where would I be without MB ? Really I am staggered by the MB process. I would today be dovorced or dead without MB.

Bob

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I love the girl </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can I respectfully suggest that you stop referring to Squid as 'the girl'? She is forty years old. She is a woman. Start thinking of her as a woman, not a girl.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then a small breakthrough : - she said that she did too but that it hard to give up everything she enjoys all at once as a punishment.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she regards it as a 'punishment', rather than the consequences of her own behavior, then she is viewing you as an arbiter of justice. In other words, she is stuck in child mode, seeing you in the parental role.

I know you're trying to get through to her the difference between punishment and consequences. However I think there's something about the dynamics of your relationship that you need to look at. And if you find yourself indignant at that suggestion, ask yourself why.

TA

TA
" the girl" is a common Northern English colloquial term of affection not an age-derived impersonal noun. Also can be said thus " I love the lass". Means nothing other than an affectionate conversational pet name.

And Squid does not understand the dynamics of affairs yet. How can she ? She hasn't read any books on the subject. It doesn't 'feel' necessary to her to maintain NC as 'on the telly' and in the media infidels can continue to meet after the affair is ended.

She assumed my caprice is the cause of my insistence on NC. I explained with facts and examples last night why NC is not a punishment. She is getting there.

I do not treat my FWW as a child. Nor do I patronise her. She would most probably kick me in the throat if I did <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

She is a qualified clinical nursing specialst, a karate champion, a good friend to many and we are working on setting her up in business a s a driving instructor next year when we both feel 'safe ' enough to make that financial and emotional commitment together. She is hardly " rescue fantasy" material I am sure you will agree.

You interpret my application of MB tenets which allow for her personality traits and situation as my being patronising. Such is your free choice, but I do not agree with it.

We have come very far very fast in the ten weeks since NC , and that would not have happened with my being patrinising, weak NOR had I brutally applied the words of MB without interpreting the context. OUR context.

For sure the dynamics of our relationship has its unique components. I think every relationship should have unique parts.
Squid isn't looking to me to be the 'arbiter of justice', she just assumed I was being spiteful because she doesn't understand how affairs work academically as you and I do yet.

Again, for sure the dynamics of our relationship need work, and that scares me a bit as I have no reference point for that but no more than any R needs work after an A.

Our R worked brilliantly as a partnerhsip for 20 of teh 22 years we've been together. Do you think I coud sustain a rescue fantasy or a patronising R model for a quarter century TA ?

Intesting insight though. Thanks for making me think although I disgree with you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />