I would like to take a moment, and address the second part of the A equation..the oft forgot sister to unmet ENs.

Failure to establish and enforce boundaries.

This is one piece of the A puzzle that can not be overlooked, yet so often it is.

Usually, when we discuss boundaries, it is because a BS is failing to enforce boundaries for an unrepentent WS or FWS prior to recovery, or during false recovery.

I'd like to look at it from a different angle.

I have noticed some..well..some distinct huffiness on the board lately..some suggesting to the BS "don't forget, you had a hand in this" and some to the WS "don't you dare try to blame this on me, I was meeting all the ENs I knew about".

Who is right? In my opinion, neither..and this is why. The focus is on the wrong part of the equation. Meeting ENs can help to build a good marriage. Failing to can make a potentially great marriage unhappy.

The attempt to place blame for the A on the shoulders of the BS though is frankly..a load of BS. Logically, you absolutely can have an A while all ENs are being met IF you fail to establish and enforce protective boundaries. Without boundary failure..even in the worst case of abuse or neglect..an A is NEVER the obvious result, unhappiness is. It was not the unhappiness that left a person vulnerable..it was the open door that ought to have been closed.

The A occurs from a failure on THIS part of the equation..and this part is the burden of the bearer, no one can do it for you.

This is why..it is repugnant in the extreme..to hear the, what was it called, mollycoddling [my new favorite word] of the WS as it includes such things as the concept that they were somehow pushed..either overtly or in the form of benign neglect. *Well..you didn't notice my hair, OM did* or *perhaps you were vaguely dissatisfied, and didn't notice until you became inappropriately attached to OP*

*coughs*

Anyone who is willing to unleash this kind of hell in my life because I didn't notice their hair, is no one I want to know any longer. Vaguely dissatisfied. Vaguely dissatisfied?!! Give me a break. How absurd.

I can forgive that someone got lost. I can forgive that they didn't know that the door was open until it was too late and they are regrettfull that it was, and it is now shut. This, is to be human.. This..is to err. To need to be forgiven, as you have trespassed mightily. To do such a thing because you had a vague itch you wanted to scratch is inhuman in the extreme, it is a character defect, a sickness and I would tremble indeed to sleep soundly next to such a creature. To suggest that I am to blame..even in part for such an action is laughable as it is sad.

Personal responsibility. If I need money, do I rob a bank..do I rob it for the excitement even if I don't need money? Either way you cut it..it's still robbing a bank, inexcusable..and lets really invest in the meaning of that word rather than casually tossing it about as a disclaimer.

To bring it to a personal level..My H has a history of failure to enforce boundaries..at work, with family, with friends, in life. I notice very often that a number of WS also are spinning out with regard to boundaries apart from their A. I think an A can be just another manifestation, a consequence if you will, of poor boundary selection and enforcement. Which makes the solution? Not meeting ENs. Personal placement and newfound respect for boundaries. Scoff no longer, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I have noticed that until the BS and WS alike establish and respect boundaries..there can be no recovery.

I see MB as a structural repair and design directive. Within this metaphor ENs are crucial to building and maintaining intimacy..but one needs to know what to embrace and what to rebuke in order to sustain this fair city. Boundaries are both the first line of defense..when a boundary is crossed the sirens ought to be wailing..and the moral compass, what you build your boundaries around, says a lot about you, as you are..right now..today.


Noodle

Hi Noodle,

I think what you describe here is the concept of knowing your weaknesses and protecting yourself.

I have wondered why I never had an A. I have practically ALL the characteristics of someone who should have had an A at some point in my life.
- I'm a conflict avoider
- I'm a people pleaser
- I attracted partners that didn't meet my EN (doormat syndrom)
- I went through a lot of bad patches in my life with a H that didn't support me
- I had no self-respect
- I had a hard time setting boundaries.

So what stopped me?
First of all, I have always had the inner conviction that I shouldn't do anything that I wouldn't want my partner walking in on. Not because I was scared he'd get angry, or because I was afraid that would result in a D, but because I couldn't stand the idea of seeing him in pain over something I did.

Secondly I would never hide the fact that I had a partner. If a man would still make advances, knowing I was in a relationship, that was a real turn-off for me. Because that showed quite clearly this man had no respect for my H and no respect for my M. At that point, such a man would be someone I would avoid.

Thirdly I'm a very careful person. The very idea of "he'll never find out" is just too illogical, too risky (supposing I would somehow override my "prime directives" 1 and 2 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

I have also wondered why people will have A's to satisfy their unmet needs, but would not turn to stealing to satisfy their material needs. Most of us have had the opportunity to steal and get away with it, yet most of us don't "because it isn't right". If statistics are correct, one person in two has cheated on his partner at some point in life. Most of us yearn for more money, more nice things, but it's not like 50% of us will steal to quench that thirst.
Maybe it's because we are "virgins" at stealing (except for the occasional cooky) but not at dating? Or because we feel we're not hurting anyone, in fact we're pleasing OP, while we're sure we ARE hurting someone when we steal?

<small>[ November 29, 2004, 02:52 AM: Message edited by: brownhair ]</small>

Noodle,

I understand what you mean about the failure to enforce boundaries.
I think this is as much a product of social factors as anything else. For example, in a country like Japan, 95% of the people who have affairs are men, and only 5% women, whereas in many western countries today, it is more like 50/50. Its obvious that women in Japan are not more emotionally satisfied in their Ms than those elsewhere... its just socially acceptable for men to have As, but not women, therefore men can 'get away with' less strict boundaries than women.

I think the reason why this is not focused on in MBs is that these kind of factors will always be there in the background. We all absorb at least partly the attitudes of our social groups, whether we want to or not. If we grew up in Pakistan, maybe even just talking alone to a member of the opposite sex would be considered an infringement of boundaries by many... Of course, its important to recognise that attitudes about what is and isn't acceptable behaviour with the opposite sex is one thing among several that left the WS 'vulnerable' to an A. Of course its important to be very clear with your S when their behaviour hurts/pains/insults you, whatever their 'values' are, and to make your limits very clear. But trying to prove that your values are 'better' or 'more moral' than those of your S is a huge DJ.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by smur:
<strong>Of course its important to be very clear with your S when their behaviour hurts/pains/insults you, whatever their 'values' are, and to make your limits very clear. But trying to prove that your values are 'better' or 'more moral' than those of your S is a huge DJ. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmm... I think respect and being truthful are values that are upheld in any society. I don't think trying to prove such values are better and more moral is wrong, in fact I think it's doing the WS a favor.

<small>[ November 29, 2004, 04:25 AM: Message edited by: brownhair ]</small>

Agreed Noodle.

If there is one thing that I will take with me from MB, it is as you said establishing and enforcing boundaries both for myself in my relationship, and for my relationship outside of my relationship.

And this is one of the things I will look for in a mate, healthy boundaries.

Because you are absolutely 100% correct, it is not failure to meet EN's which cause affairs, it is lack of personal responsiblity and healthy boundaries which make yourself or your mate vulnerable to affairs.

And as far as the BS having a hand in the affair that would destroy their life, no I don't think that is true either in most cases. However once an affair has happened and the world as they know it has forever been altered it is a very good time for personal change and improvement as in Plan A. Because change is hard, and sometimes without a major catapullist (sp) people are just to resistant to change (and to blind to see) to actually permanently change their negative, unproductive behavior.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmm... I think respect and being truthful are values that are upheld in any society. I don't think trying to prove such values are better and more moral is wrong, in fact I think it's doing the WS a favor. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, I think I didn't get my meaning across... I agree that being truthful is a value upheld by most people (but not all - my grandparents, for example, believed in never expressing 'bad emotions' but bottling up problems and feelings no matter what).

I think people need to tell and show their S what, for them, 'respect' means, and if something hurts us or makes us angry, be upfront and honest about it without using it as an excuse to degrade their values.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think people need to tell and show their S what, for them, 'respect' means, and if something hurts us or makes us angry, be upfront and honest about it without using it as an excuse to degrade their values. [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Quite true. But I do think any WS understands full well that having an A (and that's what we're talking about, isn't it?) IS disrespectful to the BS and that there are no moral values to justify an A when a D is an alternative.

Noodle,

I think you are quite correct when you call insufficient boundaries the "sister" to unmet needs as far as As go. I clearly remember when I first arrived here, and what it felt like to be told that I was responsible for my H's affair. One poster after another mentioned that I needed to look at the ways I had made my marriage vulnerable to an affair. The problem was....it didn't apply.

First it was lovebusters..."How do you hurt your spouse, what lovebusters do you use?" huh? I may have had some minor adjustments to make, but nothing that would have pushed him into the arms of another woman.

Then it was unmet needs..."What needs didn't you meet?" Well I met all the needs I could, but unfortunately, my husband's job kept us separated. He was in a foreign country and I was pregnant with our last baby. I didn't neglect his needs by choice....and in fact, when we filled out the EN questionaire, he confirmed that I did very well meeting his needs (when we saw each other).

I tried to say that I was a good wife and good person...and as crazy as it sounds....I don't think folks here believed me. If my H had an affair there just HAD to be something wrong with me. I don't believe that. And as time went on....my husband has told me the same thing "It wasn't you star". He had unmet needs....of course he did...because he was never home. And he had opportunities far from home...but mostly he was of selfish, sexually frustrated and weak of character (his description).

In the end....I'm convinced that my contribution was poor boundaries and a giver mentality. I lacked negotiation skills. I failed to make an issue of a career that was tearing my family apart. I failed to stand up to him and say ENOUGH after what all the moves were doing to our children and our marriage. I was afraid that if I asked him to choose between our marriage and his career that he would choose his job. I failed to require the kind of connectivity or precautions while he was travelling or we were separated that would have help to protect our marriage.

Some As ARE the partial result of unmet needs...real unmet needs. I good example might be a situation where a wife witholds sex. Some As are the partial result of lovebusting (perhaps an abusive spouse)...but you are quite right that boundaries are ever bit as important as those elements and it is often ignored here. As can just as easily be the result in a marriage where one spouse is TOO sweet, too giving and unwilling to enforce good marital boundaries for fear of losing their spouse. Good spouses are cheated on every day....and there are many of them here.

:::::Personal responsibility. If I need money, do I rob a bank..do I rob it for the excitement even if I don't need money? Either way you cut it..it's still robbing a bank, inexcusable...

Noodle, I'd like to start out by confessing that I dyed my hair today. FWH didn't notice. I guess that puts me at risk of an A. Ladies, lock up your H's! (I'd like to acknowledge Bob Pure for his role in making MBs a truly enjoyable place!)

However to the above.

I am beginning to wonder just how accountable a WS is. Can I tell you a little of my history? I joined the Jehovah's Witnesses when I was 18 because they told me that God was going to restore paradise to earth, "as it is in heaven" and I could live for ever on a paraside earth with anyone else I cared to share this "good news" with.

As it turned out I was quite talented at spreading their good news and I personally converted several people to becoming Jehovah's Witnesses. My boyfriend, who was a University Engineering student with top scores from high school. My neighbour who was studing five languages at university, my work mate who was a lovely girl but somewhat gulible, my brother who was a talented art student at art school and my other brother who was a teacher. My artistic brother was heavily into geology and yet he personally swallowed that God created man in six creative days, each day consisting of 7000 yrs long. This was serious la la land stuff.

These converstions resulted in much heart ache for the parents of some of the people involved. The Jehovah's Witnesses teach that God comes before family and that any family that stands in the way of "God" (or them in this case) is to be shunned or stepped over. You cannot reach a person who has been taken over by a sect of this nature. Once the mind has been changed it is almost impossible to get the person thinking as they did previously. The power of the mind to believe absolute bl**dy rubbish, is terrifying. If it's what you think you want, the mind is like a clam, snapped shut.

I see similar comparisons to when a person goes one day, from being perfectly happy with their S, to the next day meeting someone who turns their mind and everything they've believed in until that moment. I presume that the feelings are so overwhelming - the attraction so powerful, the feeling so good that what has been known until then, loses lusture and only the new matters.

I don't think we acknowledge the powers in motion in As. We put a lot into the belief that the person chooses to betray, but it's often far more complicated than that - far more subtle and insidious. Many that escape feel horredously embarrassed - because they don't seem to know what hit them. Honesly, who would be so cruel as to hurt loved ones so deeply, if they were capable of thinking it thru thorougly? It's beyond logic.

And yes, I am speaking as if I understand. I don't. I'm devastated by my H's A and I feel as if I'm permanently traumatised by what has happened to our lives. Having lived and escaped from one horror story only to endure another.

AN (

Star: Yours and mine as similar stories. My H wanted to return to his old job overseas in spite of how disruptive another move was for the family (the previous move had been very hard on us). I let him go back, not because I thought he would chose the job over me. Worse than that. I allowed this to happen because I wanted him to be happy. I should have said no, because neither of us ended up happy. We'e never been so unhappy - my FWH has aged ten yrs since this happened. But unless you have a crystal ball, how do you know about boundries? You think you are doing the right thing - until you find out you've made the mother of all mistakes!

AN

Not sure what good fences meant but....anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I will echo a lot of the sentiment here too and say that I have always believed and said here at MB that EN's are not always THE sole reason a person CHOOSES to have an A.Yes Dr.Harley has done plenty of counseling to make this a real consideration but when you take into account the numerous marriages that were not as horrible as we are lead to believe from these WS's,where love was given,diplomacy was the rule of discussion,vows were kept and rules were followed,boundaries held,life was lived,what about the WS and THEIR personal issues?

We know this to be true if not only from what some WS's here have admitted to.Even my own WH.He admits to wanting to know what it's like to have sex with other women(puke).The fact that no matter how much attention and admiration I have given him over the years that he still wanted MORE and from *other's.That he has self esteem issues.That he is afraid to face me now and make things better because he doesn't want to do the WORK.

That I too supported and moved many times(ref: to Star) in support of WH's career,always making a home no matter where we were.The buck stopped here though.NO MORE MOVING for me and the children.I had it after he cheated.Now he can live in Siberia for all I care.I am done following him around.

Clearly,many of us do have concrete boundaries that we have kept,myself included.I have been tempted several times in my life while engaged and married but never caved into the choice despite MY EN's not being met.Why is it so much more acceptable STILL to make this choice? Why is it depicted as funny or mysterious when we see this in movies? Where is the PAIN shown that we all experience?

I recently read a book at my SILs house that suggested having an A if things got too tough at home with the kids.I am sure it was meant in jest but really.The very mention of this being an OPTION to people is absurd and painful.

I have also always said,that I would like to see some serious legal punishment come back for Adultery.Instead of there being any deterrent(except in a handful of states) we have turned a blind eye.No court system wants to hear about the Infidelities.Today it rarely matters if the marriage and family is broken up when it comes to a D.No fault D's are the most convenient way to go are they not? Isn't that what everyone wants anyway? A nice easy way out,forget who is to blame or who caused all the damage.Not in my book.

And I also agree with what anyname said.Until the day WH met the homewrecker,he didn't know he was unhappy.WH never let on he was unhappy and I have proof.If he was,he lied to me about it,plain and simple.After he actually had sex with the homewrecker,he felt that the children and I would be ok(his words) and he also felt that he wanted to do this for *himself.If that's not selfish,I don't know what is.

Even after all that I have been through,I am still the same person,with the same boundaries,values,beliefs,morals,desires and dreams.I didn't change,my WH did.

O

OG,

The reference is to the old saying, "good fences make good neighbors"..a direct reference to the power of respect for boundaries on relationships for those in close contact. It was too long, I just figured it was common enough that most would instinctively finish it internally. I guess I could change it to "good fences make good spouses" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

AN,

I agree with you, while outside of the boundaries I do not think that people are able to think clearly any longer and to navigate with any credible sense of logic, purpose, or direction. This is precisely why they exist in the first place. The trouble is..that often times, people think.."I can just step outside a little, and come right back, no harm done and maybe it will be exciting" and this simply isn't the case. Once outside that gate it is a whirling sh*tstorm the likes of which a sane person almost can not comprehend. Not only can they not see the door, they can't remember why they wanted to go through it in the first place. It is a place of madness and confusion. A dark and waiting place. The choice though..was made before they took the first step..and that is the choice for which I hold them accountable. Only trouble is..that first step may have occured years in advance. At some point..somewhere in their history, they allowed a wrong thought pattern to manifest, it went unchecked and became a paved road. Perhaps still not causing any discernable trouble they moved on through life in a semi-fog/semi-functional state until they found a direction for this destructive energy..usually THAT is when we started the clock..but I really think it was far earlier that these events were set in motion, perhaps before the marriage even occured.

As for thinking they are doing the right thing..but finding out otherwise..well, there is a problem with that theory. They knew when to lie and what to omit when we were getting the edited for TV version <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . This suggests awareness at least on some level. It also suggests continued choice.

The cry of the FWS is "if only I had known"..I don't accept that though..you DID know, or should have that this is an act of destruction. I do not have to personally witness the fallout of a nuclear bomb to be conscious of the FACT that BOMB = DESTRUCTION and make mt choices accordingly. They may not have realized the extent of the damage..but what consolation do they really think that is? "I knew it would hurt you, I just didn't realize it would hurt you this much"..well, gee..thanks, good to know that there is some level of pain you are unwilling to expose me to if you knew in advance and had opportunity to measure against your perceived pleasure.

SF

While I see what you are saying, and couldn't agree more that meeting ENs is crucial to healthy longterm relationships, marriage being the ultimate pinacle of these. I just do not buy the unmet ENs = Affair..because it does not stand up to logic.

As smur excellently pointed out..there are a great many cultures in which the BS is the prime candidate for unmet ENs..yet they comprise a shockingly small percentage of WS.

I really believe that Boundary issues = Affair, more often than not. I have seen it play out in the life of every single person I have ever known to have such issues, and I see it all over the board.

I believe that unmet ENs = Unhappiness
but Unhappiness =/= Affair. Regardless of the level of dissatisfaction in a marriage it is frankly impossible to have an affair without discarding protective boundaries..it is a true fact.

It is also a true fact that a person can have an affair when ALL ENs are met if they disregard the boundaries.

It is a reasonable conclusion, therefore, that boundaries are the common factor, not ENs.

I DO emphatically agree with you that poor boundaries on the part of the BS can absolutely be a contributing factor.

I was in a very similar situation. Only unmet ENs were the result of work related travel. It was a good marriage, one he never wanted to leave. Mutually nurturing, and satisfying prior to this behavior.

Weaver

You bring up one of the very reasons that I wanted to look into this further.

What is the cause, in my opinion, of most affairs? Boundaries.

What do most BS/FWS most resist in recovery? Boundaries.

The problem with the over focus on ENs is that one..it is used to implicate the BS in the affair..ridiculous and offensive..and two..that it does not address the real issue..I think that the BS and WS struggle would be greatly lessened by the acceptance of this concept. Boundaries are necessary, healthy, and freeing . They are not the bondage that they are perceived to be.

How can a couple POJA if they can not agree on the foundation of the relationship? What is and is not acceptable? You have to have agreement on this before you begin to build sophisticated negotiations on top of it.

I agree completely, weaver, that sometimes it DOES take something this painfull, shocking, and humbling for a person to fully realize and accept that change needs to occur.

BH

You bring up a couple of good points. I too have always perceived flirty behavior from men who knew that I was a married woman to mean that either they are a whore, or they think I am. Neither of these options inspires my heart to go all aflutter. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I too am a very carefull person, and I too would never be able to deceive myself that no one would ever know. Actually, neither was my H. He said that post sex, he thought for about a half minute that maybe I didn't ever have to find out..but quickly this fell apart as he envisioned a lifetime of trying to be just ahead of this deception, especially with such a plugged in and suspicious by nature spouse. He realized it wasn't going to work. He told me the same day. If he had engaged in sex with me prior to confessing..there would be no reconciliation. He chose wisely. I think that was the first turnaround.

I think you have excellently illustrated one point that I wanted to make..the virgin concept. Just as a killer needs to become callous in order to make that first kill by exposing him/herself to ever increasing amounts of input..so does the WS. I really believe this. No one goes from 100% committed to 100% adulterous in the space of a few seconds. The human psyche simply does not work in this way.

We are not exposed to stealing..because there is a heavy penalty. The law takes this very seriously. It is then, for most, a boundary so close to the foundation of our *self* that we not only never cross it..but also never really even desire to cross it. Most people become very offended by the concept that they are a thief..including the OP. Want to see indignant? Give it a try sometime.

Since the law does not do us the favor of making adultery verboten...I think extreme measures are in order. Not only should a person, particularly a WS not cross the line..they ought to identify the line and walk in the opposite direction rather than stand on it's edge and wonder why the silly spouse is wringing their hands..after all..they are within the agreed upon parameters <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

This has been a great discussion so far, I appreciate everyone taking the time to give such well thought out responses, I hope that more people take an interest, I'd like to hear the people speak. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Noodle

Must preface by saying loooongggg time lurker here (as in no one here knows me or my story) but felt compelled to post.

Noodle, I follow your posts and have to simply say, you da bomb <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I come here daily, hoping to read what you have to say because you are very insightful and have a gift with the written word and I believe you are right on the money with this one.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you have excellently illustrated one point that I wanted to make..the virgin concept. Just as a killer needs to become callous in order to make that first kill by exposing him/herself to ever increasing amounts of input..so does the WS. I really believe this. No one goes from 100% committed to 100% adulterous in the space of a few seconds. The human psyche simply does not work in this way.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely agree. My STBXWH, a highly moral and upstanding guy, was working in an insidious envirnoment (I like to call it the Den of Infidelity) when he was involved in his affair. Just about EVERY single one of his co-workers/friends were cheating. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Hence, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe that unmet ENs = Unhappiness
but Unhappiness =/= Affair. Regardless of the level of dissatisfaction in a marriage it is frankly impossible to have an affair without discarding protective boundaries..it is a true fact.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep. Couldn't agree more. My STBXWH was unhappy and he had an affair. I was EQUALLY if not more unhappy than he, and I didn't. Honestly didn't even cross my mind, because of MY personal boundaries. I just couldn't betray myself that way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I DO emphatically agree with you that poor boundaries on the part of the BS can absolutely be a contributing factor.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very true in my case. My classic co-dependent, borderline doormat (very hard to admit to that one!) behavior certainly didn't help <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I do have to say, WH affair was a catalyst for ALOT of very hard, excrutiating, but very necessary change, for us both

anyname said (I'd like to acknowledge Bob Pure for his role in making MBs a truly enjoyable place!)

What I done now ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Noodle squid and I discussed this over lunch today. She admitted for the first time EVER that she has problems in taking blame for stuff. 'Attribution' causes her real difficulty. However she admitted today that the reason she cried when I apologised for my acts of omission which led to the 'flat' M we had pre-A was that she'd LOVE to blame me and she HAD been blaming me for her A but she realised it was bullsh1t at that moment. It was her decision 100 %.

And she apologised heartfelt today for her contribution to our M pre- A, for the A and for the Fog, which she barely remembers.

Big stuff. Lets see of she can maintain NC <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

She's trying real hard . I told her I was SCARED how much she needed to change. She said she was too but would I help her?.

<small>[ November 29, 2004, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

ENs, boundaries (fences), whatever.

You guys forgot an important ingredient in the recipe for an affair: alien abduction. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

WAT

Bob..

I'm speechless! Wow!

Noodle

Yeah Noodle but if its REAL she won't put me through the grinder anymore over this funeral, future tournaments etc will she?

DEEDS not WORDS butter the parsnips.

Its good but we'll see.

Noodle and All,

I'm going to print this thread out when I get home so I can reread it and take some of it with me to MC on Thursday.

I also believe that the "Unhappy" excuse is crap, heck everything my WW has said was excuses/justification. I also admit that both of us were not getting EN's met and I have realized that and can admit it. HOWEVER I did not have the A, as somebody else said it boils down to moral character, strength, values whatever you want to call it.

About 3 weeks before me Dday my WW and I were on the vacation of our lives to Florida and the Bahammas, unhappy??? I don't think so.

I admit that I didn't set boundaries, I always let her go out to the clubs with her GF's. At the time I didn't want to be the controlling H so I figured I could trust her. But over time she got lost in that "environment" and me not setting boundaries and her crossing them without caring about my feelings made the A possible.

I have thought that I was partly to blame for the A. I have realized that I can't blame myself for that. I can blame myself for SOME of the problems we were having in our M but not for the A.

I also really appreciate hearing from you Noodle and Bob and all the other vets on this board.

I think I'm getting my first addiction.... to MB. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

2Oak ... an oldtimer on recovery ... recently wrote:

~~~~~~~~~~~

"I say that as a warning to all - an affair doesn't start in bed, it starts when someone begins to share their feelings too closely with someone of the opposite sex - innocently. So lesson number one is that the best defense against affairs - be transparent - no secrets, keep phone, email, finances, schedule and EVERYTHING open to your spouse."

~~~~~~~~~~~

To me... this is a WORKING definition of appropriate marital fences. Transparency between the spouses.

Pep

<small>[ November 29, 2004, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Noodle

An excellent thread, and VERY important to MB newbies. I’m often saddened to see new BS’s being urged by zealots to examine their part in failing to meet ENs. In my view, the EN model works in about 10% of cases that show up here on MB. This leaves an awful lot of cases where no amount of EN-meeting could have averted disaster.

The EN approach seems to suggest that there is a breaking point for every married person, where the level of temptation will outweigh the emotional pluses of the marriage, and infidelity is almost inevitable. This model seems to assume that there are very few defences against temptation except not feeling it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> WTF? From two years on this forum, I am pretty clear that the level of dissatisfaction in a marriage has little bearing on whether a married person is unfaithful or not. (As you say, low EN-meeting = unhappiness, NOT infidelity). Many spouses can put up with miserable circumstances for years, passing up opportunities for ‘relief’ with little effort. Others look for comfort with little obvious provocation.

The EN model assumes that all ENs can be met within the marriage. It doesn’t take into account those ENs (or rather, ‘desires’) which are simply incompatible with marriage. For example:

• the desire to enjoy early-romance intensity;
• the desire to be free of the restrictions of life with children;
• the desire for risk (emotional and /or sexual).


I defy Dr. Harley to fit these into his cosy model. And pushing a BS into meeting ‘needs’ in order to hold a capricious WS in a marriage is positively cruel.

A small matter of semantics – we have to be careful with the word ‘boundaries’. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> As ForeverHers frequently points out, ‘boundaries’ are what we will not tolerate others doing to us. ‘Standards’ are what we will not allow ourselves to do to others. A BS may have high standards, but poor boundaries.

Noodle, I think you’re spot-on in observing that the departure from standards is rarely a sudden thing – it’s often a natural outcome of a life-long tendency to drift outside the barrier if it can be gotten away with. How does this happen?

As an analogy, I imagine a small kid in a sweet shop with his mother. He has no money, and an intense desire for chocolate. While his mother is talking to the shop-keeper, he has an opportunity to pocket a chocolate bar. What would stop him?

1. Fear of his mother’s disappointment and anger
2. Fear of the shop-keeper’s anger and possible legal repercussions
3. Knowing that he does not like having his own possessions stolen, so judging that it would be an unkind act;
4. Understanding that, if everyone stole from the shop, the shop-keeper would go broke, and that the shop-keeper has paid honest money for his merchandise and therefore has a right to get cash for it.
5. Knowing that the chocolate would produce a momentary pleasure that would be far outweighed by the burden on conscience.

I suspect that a lot of WS’s are (or have been) stuck at stages 1 and 2 – being bound mainly by fear of consequences, and being essentially concerned with their own ‘requirement’ for goodies. They rationalise: the shop-keeper probably gets his goods cheap, even stolen; it’s only one little item, hardly worth anything; it’s the shop-keeper’s problem to protect himself from theft – if the kid can get away with it, good for him. Getting from 1 to 5 is a long haul – a journey that we are supposed to have completed in adolescence, but some of us somehow haven’t. Getting the chocolate, and avoiding consequences, seems like a smart thing to do to some people. Understanding the damage to YOURSELF is way, way beyond that kind of child-level conscience.

(Note:I'm not saying that all BS's have reached a virtuous level 5. Sometimes they're stuck at stage 2 too. They're just more scared of consequences. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

Even more frustrating, I think that those with ‘negotiable’ standards cannot really understand the means by which others control their impulses. It hurts me to see faithful BS’s accused of simply not having enough temptation thrown at them to succumb, or of being smugly comfortable in the marriage. But to someone for whom the primary barrier to self-gratification is the probability of detection and punishment, it must be impossible to understand self-discipline based on compassion and awareness of the damage to self.

For weeks after d-day, my H sneaked around trying to work out if I’d cheated on HIM. He knew that he’d treated me badly for years, and it seemed logical to him that I’d have found solace from the misery. In truth, I’d been seriously tempted. But only for about ten minutes. The thought of alleviating my misery by way of a charming, adulterous man who would lie to his wife and say nice things to me, just seemed ridiculous. I knew that such a relationship would be a series of sugar-rushes followed by sugar-lows. I knew that I would feel deep shame and loathe myself, and this would inevitably affect my children and my marriage. And those things were much too precious to risk for a brief chocolate-high.

Sometimes I wonder how many WS’s stole candy bars as kids?

TA