TA,

A truly outstanding post.

Time will not allow for an in depth post just now..but I didn't want this to pass by unnoticed.

Your separation of standard/boundary is noted.

Thank you so much for this effort.

Noodle

For me I had faith that as long as I met my FWHs needs he would be true to me and love me. I tried to be the best wife that I could be - no yelling, no nagging, meeting his need for SF (unfortunately his need for that was much lower than mine), staying in shape, doing most of the housework, cooking, and even some yardwork while working full-time. My kids have always been a priority in my life, but not over my H. And still he cheated. For years I put my needs aside so that he could fulfill his goals, dreams, and desires; while many of my goals, dreams, desires, and needs were totally neglected by him and me. Now I wonder why I would do that for anyone and I know that I would not do that for anyone ever again. I did it out of love and because I was sure that when he fulfilled his goals he would give me the same support and opportunities. I trusted him to treat me in the same manner. I even stated that as things were moving along for him and my life stagnated. Yet, when it was my turn he chose to cheat. So I totally agree that we all have unmet needs at certain points in our marriages, but not all of us cheat on our spouse.

The boundary issue is one I've seen Noodle write on before and I totally agree. Boundaries in a relationship are necessary and even those who claim to love us will push their boundaries if not held in check (just ask my three year old at bedtime <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). However, I thought the marriage vows set the rules on faithfulness - a clear boundary in my mind. And yet, fourteen years later I find myself having to make the statement of "If you are unfaithful to me again, I will divorce you with no regrets". It truly saddens me that anyone should ever have to say that to their SPOUSE! So now I'm left to wonder what other boundaries I must clearly articulate for him.

<small>[ November 29, 2004, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: SpouseGuess ]</small>

A small matter of semantics – we have to be careful with the word ‘boundaries’. [Cool] As ForeverHers frequently points out, ‘boundaries’ are what we will not tolerate others doing to us. ‘Standards’ are what we will not allow ourselves to do to others. A BS may have high standards, but poor boundaries.

YES!!!!!

I could not find a way to verbalize this. As someone who is for the first time learning after heartbreak, heartbreak & heartbreak this is my adult relationship history in a nutshell. I have high standards (un-able to hurt another, lie or cheat), but always seem to get hurt by men, therefore poor boundaries. And I would imagine this is true for the majority of BS's.

Their was a time when I was a teen when I did not have very good standards though, always trying to juggle my boyfriends. Something happened which changed me, so I know people can change and they can develop standards.

What changed it for me, atleast from what I can remember, when I first took a good hard look at myself and the pain I had caused through my selfishness was -

My older sister looking at me one day as I was sitting on the couch talking about myself and this one and that one like I was the queen of Eygpt and she said to me with definite malice "you are going to go to hell, you know, you are a selfish horrible girl" just like that. My big sis who I thought the world of. That is all it took was someone telling me the truth about what a horrible, self centered, hurtful person I was to change my standards and the way I treated others.

So people can change, especially when met with disapproval by someone they value and respect.

Which brings in exposure and the responsibility our friends and family have to call us on our behaviour. But I suppose that is another thread all together.

<small>[ November 29, 2004, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TogetherAlone:
But to someone for whom the primary barrier to self-gratification is the probability of detection and punishment, it must be impossible to understand self-discipline based on compassion and awareness of the damage to self. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes... and running with this thought... I just die laughing everytime someone who is guilty of bad behavior says this:

"Don't judge someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes."

Meaning what? Don't judge shabby behavior unless you have lowered yourself to equally shabby behavior? Then what? Shabby behavior is "normalized" ... and good behavior has no meaning. And this helps me have a better life in what way?

Pep

::::The trouble is..that often times, people think.."I can just step outside a little, and come right back, no harm done and maybe it will be exciting" and this simply isn't the case.

Noodle, This is my point. You are looking at the crime and not taking into account the intent. Adultery is not a legal issue and hence falls under the critera of personal descretion, and is not treated with the same due care by the WS as it might be if it was a clear cut legal matter. (I'd make it a legal matter). Given that there is freedom of choice and that the perpetrator can tell themselves that no one will know, almost always the WS toys with the concept of dipping their toes in the water to test the temperature. I believe they are tantalized by the idea of adultery but at this stage they don't really believe things will progress to that level. So initially, it's a game they are playing with themselves. They rationalise that this won't hurt anyone, as it's a non event. It's as good as the paper it's not written on.


:::Once outside that gate it is a whirling sh*tstorm the likes of which a sane person almost can not comprehend. Not only can they not see the door, they can't remember why they wanted to go through it in the first place. It is a place of madness and confusion. A dark and waiting place.

Ah, but they didn't know what would happen if they dipped their toes. The water sucked at their foot, leg, thigh, torso ... furiously. The WS didn't know the water was that trecherous. They usually surrender without much of a struggle but they really didn't know how dangerous the undertow was.

::The choice though..was made before they took the first step..and that is the choice for which I hold them accountable. Only trouble is..that first step may have occured years in advance. At some point..somewhere in their history, they allowed a wrong thought pattern to manifest, it went unchecked and became a paved road.

I absolutely agree. For my H, it was 12 yrs earlier when his best friend told him that he was having sex with a domestic maid here in Asia and the girl "loved it". Seed sown. Another compounding factor was that all my H's best friends have cheated on their wives. All academics and all middle aged, married men of rather boring status. (my H's profile - so he could see himself doing it- especially with the advance knowledge that the girl would loved it). I was astounded to discover that my H cheated with a girl he didn't even know. A maid, who he'd had a short casual conversation with once. She wrote him a letter suggesting they play around and he was in, immediately. The preparation had been completed years earlier. He was an accident waiting to happen.


::::Perhaps still not causing any discernable trouble they moved on through life in a semi-fog/semi-functional state until they found a direction for this destructive energy..usually THAT is when we started the clock..

OPPORTUNITY. Is the main ingredient for an A. We spent all our time together until H returned to Asia to work, primarily on his own. I had no idea that he'd been exposed to destructive thought patterns, years earlier - because he didn't tell me his best friend was having sex with a maid. I could have told my H what he didn't know, and that his best friend caught genital warts from someone, coz that much I knew. My H had decided not to share with me what had been told to him in confidence. This in itself suggested my H found the secret tantalizing. My H stored it up and when he was approached by a maid, he remembered all too clearly that "the girl loved it".

::::As for thinking they are doing the right thing..but finding out otherwise..well, there is a problem with that theory. They knew when to lie and what to omit when we were getting the edited for TV version . This suggests awareness at least on some level. It also suggests continued choice.

I don't think I said they thought they were doing the right thing. But, like when I converted all those people the the jdubs, there was secrecy involved. People want to make their own choices and not many 21 yo's run home to their folks and explain they are thinking of joining a devout religious sect that doesn't permit blood transfusions or normal family interaction. In fact the sect itself lies by not mentioning blood transfusions until the potential recruit is well and truly on the hook. (kinda like the OP doesn't let the WS know what a lying *&^% they really are)

I think this is the area I am most interested in. The problem with cheating is that I am certain that the WS sees problems with doing it. They see the harm, quite strongly at first and they also see the attraction. There is a tremendous pull between the two. There is irritation and discontent that they are placed in the position of having to chose. They probably want to chose the right way but there is the underlying thoughts of "a long time dead" and "I should know what sex with someone else is like before I die" and "I deserve this for myself". The rationalisatins are done on one's own. Usually big decisions are undertaken with the advice of others. New jobs, moving house, getting married, having kids, taking a mortgage, taking a trip. Here we have a major life choice and it's done entirely on one's own, without opinions from others. By necessity of course. But the adult person feels competent to chose. If the WS spoke to someone responsible the whole thing would be dead in the water. And to a certain extent, that is why they don't ask for opinions. This is their baby, and they want to handle it entirely on their own.

:::The cry of the FWS is "if only I had known"..I don't accept that though..you DID know, or should have that this is an act of destruction. I do not have to personally witness the fallout of a nuclear bomb to be conscious of the FACT that BOMB = DESTRUCTION and make mt choices accordingly. They may not have realized the extent of the damage..but what consolation do they really think that is? "I knew it would hurt you, I just didn't realize it would hurt you this much"..well, gee..thanks, good to know that there is some level of pain you are unwilling to expose me to if you knew in advance and had opportunity to measure against your perceived pleasure.

They believed it would remain a secret and that no one would get hurt. They proceeded on the wrongful course, after thinking thru the necessary problems, under huge instinctual coercion to fulfil the call of nature. They didn't know the scales were weighted in favor of adultery (nature, hormones, endorphines etc) and that their ability to assess damage was retarded by the circumstances.

I have this overwhelming feeling that we are tryng to rationalise something that is a matter of bad luck for the most part. Just like my friends who joined the sect on my recommendation. Wrong place, wrong time. BUT I'd like to know how some people are able to slam shut this option for their lives. I am like a number of others who absolutely refused to go there - and primarily because of the damage it would do if I did. Why do some people have the forethought and others don't? I've said this before and I'll say it again. Our WSs are aliens!

AN

A few thoughts, some redundant...

Knowing the importance of boundaries is why there are some people who will never cheat. I absolutely believe this. I know I never would, and that would be true even if I hadn't been made into a BS. I have had chances, and I have been tempted. Hell, once I was even a little fogged for a week or so. But keeping my boundaries protected me.

The increase in the frequency of workplace affairs in the last 60 years is directly a consequence of more women entering the workplace and people not knowing the importance of boundaries. There hasn't been a moral decay! All that's happened is that boundaries which existed implicitly in the past must be understood explicitly now, and too many people are ignorant of their importance.

Regarding the EN vs. boundaries fight: as my W's affair has continued during the last six months, my thinking has changed. At first, I felt I bore some responsibility for the A, that LBs and unmet ENs were very much to blame. I no longer believe that. Got unmet ENs? Boo hoo. We all do. My W is a romantic who did not know to insulate herself from the advances of OM, and when she started getting that rush, her soul broke into a million pieces.

Unmet ENs became an excuse.

GC

So..

Some more really great posts.

AN,

Since yours is the most fresh in my memory, I'm gonna use you as a springboard, if you don't mind?

I think it's safe to assume that you are fairly charismatic..to have been such a successfull campaigner for your former religion. Me? Not so much. Oh, I'm a good public speaker..just tend to come off a little aloof..don't generate the warmth that such an endeavor would require. Bad luck? No such creature. Not for me. I don't believe in chaos..what looks chaotic only seems so because I am ignorant of the elements and powers that be. With the affair dynamic there is a discernable pattern..and because of this, I am nearly compelled to categorize and then subcategorize..to take it apart and find out which areas affect which other areas [I did this with the alternator on my car too..with a little less success <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ].

Strategy is a fascinating area for me. Supposedly one of my areas of strength. Probably a large part of what appealed to me in the first place about MB concepts.

Something had been nagging at me though..plowing through my mental files until finally one moment of Eureka! It's the boundaries, not the ENs..suddenly new pathways were exposed..things began to fall into place..the commonalities became clearer as they divided into groups..I will likely be drawing up charts in my journal as a mental bookmark <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

The difference between a legal issue and a purely ethical issue..is teeth, nothing more. Actually..adultery is a legal matter, but poorly enforced..and that isn't really relevent to this particular issue anyway, so I'm gonna shrug it off for the time being. I'll touch on intent..and say that it always gratification. Your description here is great..dipping in the toes..not thinking it will really go THAT far..I can nearly hear the echo of my H in that sentiment. Essentially playing chicken with himself, and losing rather badly. Probably a lot of other people can as well.

I also think you really have something there with the cloak and dagger issue. It interests me as well. I'd really be interested in looking deeper into it. It'd be nice if some FWS could shed a little light there..since I can't actually crawl into the mind of a WS..but I fear that when their thought pattern returned to its regularly schedualed program..they lost most of what they had thought, rationalized, etc..it got real fuzzy, real fast. Too bad, it's probably a self preservation reflex..but it sure would be nice if for posterity it somehow managed to be documented .

Going to diverge for just a moment for more semantic fun..

TA..gonna have to disagree about that boundaries clarification...a boundary is a border or a limit..whether coming in or going out..a standard is a tool used to measure value..which in this frame of reference would help an individual to assign the placement of boundaries. They are both important to the equation, but not in the way you suggest.

Yes..walk a mile in my shoes before you judge..except..what makes you think that I haven't? What causes a WS to assume that the level of temptation experienced by a non- affairee was any less than what they themselves experienced? Why would they assume that there were not likewise chinks in my armour as surely as in their own. That I do have my own faults flaws and weaknesses that can all be manipulated if I make my decisions based upon my feelings at any given time rather than upon what I have previously determined to be correct action which is in itself determined by what I want for myself, and what I value in life . Love is not love that alters...how can love not alter? When love is a decision and not a feeling.

I'd like to touch briefly on something else TA brought up..what about the desires that are incompatable with marriage? What to do about those ENs? We all have them..thoughts about what might have been, had we not made the choices in life that we did. Variety of sexual partners..club scene..excessive drinking..too many more to be named. This issue is practically the defining characteristic of one of my subcategories..the partying spouse..whose As are not related to soul mateness..whose choice of partner[s] suggests that EN fullfillment specifically from the individual is very limited. How to address these affairees? How to carry out plans A and B..when there is no particular OP? What is recovery for these people..and what is NC? Where and how do we lay the boundaries in these situations? These are all issues I myself struggled with..and I see quite a few others who fit the profile...native, you are in this club so chime in often <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

The MB concepts are principles. generalities..and because of this..they must be custom fitted to the individual situation in order to be usefull in application..this is where I think MC can really be of great help. Particularly from MC who are familiar with the material.

Well, it's late, and I'm tired..but I would like to thank everyone for their thoughts and express hope that this will continue to be explored.

Good night all,

Noodle

[I didn't spell very well]

<small>[ November 29, 2004, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

Noodle:Variety of sexual partners..club scene..excessive drinking..too many more to be named. This issue is practically the defining characteristic of one of my subcategories..the partying spouse..whose As are not related to soul mateness..whose choice of partner[s] suggests that EN fullfillment specifically from the individual is very limited. How to address these affairees? How to carry out plans A and B..when there is no particular OP? What is recovery for these people..and what is NC? Where and how do we lay the boundaries in these situations?

I guess I'm just one big idiot! If one is seeking the thrill and excitment of the club scene with a random guy, how can one expect to get EN's met by that OP, expecially right away. That is in fact, self gratification, selfishness whatever you want to call it.

So then the Q still stands, how to set boundaries when WW doesn't want to be controlled, trapped, or responsibilities of kids and an M. How to recover?

Heh,

I respectfully offer the possibility that it is boundaries issue..not an EN issue <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

By the way..as I stated in an earlier post..a person can only set a boundary for themselves..you can not set her boundaries for her.

Does that change anything for you? Flip any switches?

I wish I had time and energy to get more in depth tonight..but alas..the siren song of my bed leads me to bid you adieu, until the morrow <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Noodle

:::I think it's safe to assume that you are fairly charismatic..to have been such a successfull campaigner for your former religion.

It's scary that I was the least educated of the group I recruited. I have an infectious personality if I believe in something strongly. The trouble was that when I 'woke up', I was not allowed near the recruited friends, to talk them out of it again - which I think I could have done, given time. Apart from my H, all those I converted are still in the sect - 25 yrs on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />


::::Me? Not so much. Oh, I'm a good public speaker..just tend to come off a little aloof..don't generate the warmth that such an endeavor would require. Bad luck? No such creature. Not for me. I don't believe in chaos..what looks chaotic only seems so because I am ignorant of the elements and powers that be.

There are a lot of people here who would love to meet you! As for understanding the chaos? MBs et al is my third big issue in my life, which I've dedicated much time and effort to understanding. The first was the religion. I spent years on an exjw discussion forum trying to understand what happened. I was officially excommunicated from the sect, which meant I was prevented from associating with my family. That was in 1981. Their policy of shunning remains alive and well and destroys the family happiness of thousands of innocent people annually - not to mention the JW belief that blood transfusions are against God.

The second major issue of my life is breast cancer. My mother died of it last year. Her sister died of it. Anything you want to know about breast cancer, ask me. I have plenty of respect for doctors and the work they do, but people do not appreciate the limitions of medicine and the individuals who practise it. (my daughter is a doctor) If I am diagnosed with breast cancer I will know what to ask and how best to survive it - if survival is possible. Sometimes it isn't. As with everything in life, there are monumental stuff ups that you want to avoid by knowing your disease.


:::With the affair dynamic there is a discernable pattern..and because of this, I am nearly compelled to categorize and then subcategorize..to take it apart and find out which areas affect which other areas [I did this with the alternator on my car too..with a little less success ].

I'm not sure why this has to be done but I presume it is because thru understanding we gain acceptance (hopefully). Not long after d-day I felt I wanted to die rather than commence the long journey to understanding - I didn't feel I had the strength to take on the task. My will to live and be happy departed at the hands of a manipulative young woman whom my H found enchanting.

I have to re-read what you wrote, but I'm still unclear what boundaries you are referring to. If you are in a happy marriage, how do you know (unless thru hindsight) that you have to implement strong boundries? Don't you automatically assume there are boundaries in place for both parties? A's come about because one S is trusting and naive. How do you teach all newly weds to assume the worst and to implement boundaries that will be kept activated for the duration of 60+ yrs of M?

As for understanding the A? How will I ever do that? My H was one of the brightest of his year in a posh private school. He went thru life, treating people with good manners, good humour and respect. He was one of the most admirable people I knew - and I'm hard on people. A devoted family man and father - nothing was too much trouble for him with his children. He always came home from work in a good mood and anxious to talk and laugh over the day's events. We had remained happy and inseparable throughout our M. We were the best of friends.

His A behavior constituted a 180 degree turn in his 50 yrs of living. An attractive but low class girl, who when paired with him was seen as a prostitute, whom my H was prepared to accompany in public, on a number of occassions. He, so kool previously, was willing to risk the mirth of his colleagues and contempt of our friends and a very happy M to be with a silly airhead of a girl, who barely spoke English, except to ask him about how much money he earned. The embarrassment and humilation should have been overwhelming (they looked so ridiculous together), but he hung on to the A even when she told him she was a virgin, he continued to subject himself to her demands. He was afraid of her and captivated by the thought of a young woman being interested in him, even though she had nothing of substance to talk with him about, and he laboured hard to think of things to to do and say to her. How do I reconcile this with the person I'd known for 35 yrs? But, here I am trying to put the round peg in a square hole! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />


AN

Anyname,

Is it possible that your husbands affair with the young asian hoe had nothing at all to do with you, your marriage or even her? It seems to me, from what you write it had everything to do with him. He had some kind of a dark need inside of him he needed to explore. And at that moment of truth, when all people ask themselves if that need is worth all the pain and distruction it is likely to cause, he pushed the question aside instead of examining it. Because in that moment of pure selfishness he wanted to explore something that he never had, maybe something dark & forbidden. In that way he used the OW as much as the OW used him.

In a lot of cases I think the affair has absolutely nothing to do with the spouse or the marriage, it is ALL about the betraying spouse. Especially in longterm marriages that are happy with no history of infidelity. Well really in all affairs, except maybe in exit affairs where the WS has been unhappy for a long time, that might indicate the unmet EN theory. However that still does not explain why one doesn't divorce and then go meet someone else. What would explain that is the standard/boundary issue though I suppose.

And as Noodle suggested it would be interesting if your husband would come on here and give us a play by play of what caused him to enter into this affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
I have high standards (un-able to hurt another, lie or cheat), but always seem to get hurt by men, therefore poor boundaries.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I had to guess, I would guess that you were bothered (at least at some level) by my "walk in his shoes" post.

Am I correct?

I would also guess that (if you read it) my personal boundary regarding other posters who have directly lied to me, also bothers you. Am I correct there?

What you may want to consider ... you have the right and the responsibility to judge who you allow into your inner circle. Your area of intimacy. It is not only ~fair~ to judge, it is imperative if you are going to control the quality of your own life.

You don't judge the overall goodness or worth of other people when you are doing this ... you are judging the overall relative value as it applies to fitting comfortably into YOUR important areas of confidence and intimacy.

You can determine that a perfectly good and decent person does not "fit" into what you have decided are your boundaries. And, you can change your mind later, if circumstances change.

One way to know when and who to keep away from your intimacy boundaries is by knowing YOUR own weaknesses !!!

Pep

<small>[ November 30, 2004, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepperband,

Yes I know exactly which post you are referring to about your desire not to post to someone who has been untruthful, and probably a month ago it would have bothered me. But something has changed inside of me. Maybe it is that I finally realised that NOBODY is going to come to my rescue, not a boyfriend, not my deceased parents, not my friends. AND IT IS NOT THEIR PLACE TO! I am completely responsible and I have failed in the past to understand that. When I realized that my DD's dad manipulated me into signing over 50/50 custody something in me snapped. I failed to do what was in the best interest of my DD because I trusted that he knew what her best interest was, AND I wanted to be fair. He did not, and a few things have happened which clearly demonstrates this.

Another thing that caused this "snap" in me was realizing that my boyfriend had only his interest at heart when he suggested I rent a room to him for the winter.

I am starting to "get it", finally.

As for your "walk in my shoes" statement, this too would have bothered me in the past, but now I no longer am concerned with where someone has been, or what they have been through. It matters only where they are now and where they are going. Just the fact that someone would make that statement shows me exactly "where" they are, which is nowhere. I get this too now, but there was a time I believed it actually mattered who had suffered this and who had suffered that. Well guess what, every person on this earth as suffered to some degree or another, and if not already then in the future.

What you may want to consider ... you have the right and the responsibility to judge who you allow into your inner circle. Your area of intimacy. It is not only ~fair~ to judge, it is imperative if you are going to control the quality of your own life.

Yes! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And I am going to bring up Melody, because she is a person whom I admire a great deal. Partly because I know that she knows what you know about personal responsibilty and what happened here the other day which caused her to leave shows that so many of us don't understand this. But I really am starting to get it Pepper.

Compassion is taking on a whole new meaning for me lately.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
Yes I know exactly which post you are referring to about your desire not to post to someone who has been untruthful, and probably a month ago it would have bothered me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And what probably would be bothersome about this for you is this idea ---> "everyone deserves a second chance" ... which is true ---> if I (or you in your own life) decide there is enough potential benifit ~for myself~ (or yourself) in offering that 2nd chance. If I were speaking about a family member, the circumstances are VERY different ... and the relative value to offering a second chance goes way up.

This is where Lemonman goes awry in his posting. He views the 2nd chance offered to a WS by a BS through the eyes of his own hurtful experience ... and for him, at this point in his life ... he sees no relative value of 2nd chance offerings and he personalizes his opinions to excess.... thereby no WS deserves a 2nd chance. Not just his own.

Pep

<small>[ November 30, 2004, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:


Another thing that caused this "snap" in me was realizing that my boyfriend had only his interest at heart when he suggested I rent a room to him for the winter.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> out of curiosity ... who's interest would this arrangement be in ... if not his own? What would you tell yourself that was different than "he has his interest at heart"?

pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TogetherAlone:
<strong>I’m often saddened to see new BS’s being urged by zealots to examine their part in failing to meet ENs. In my view, the EN model works in about 10% of cases that show up here on MB. This leaves an awful lot of cases where no amount of EN-meeting could have averted disaster.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmmmm. Guess I'm a zealot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I think some of us may have missed a vital point. A lot of the discussion on this thread is about what may cause an individual to enter an affair. As has been aptly pointed out, simply not having ENs met isn't enough - whether we label the REAL cause as poor fences, boundaries, alien abductions, or weak character. This is like saying that the teacher caused the students to missbehave because she left the class room. Further, it takes two to have a marriage and if ENs aren't being filled for one spouse, odds are that they aren't being filled for the other spouse either. But simultaneous affairs are not the rule.

BUT - the decision to conduct an affair or, more commonly, the decision not to avoid one, is usually a LOT EASIER if little value is placed on the marriage. Marriage loses value predominantly when ENs are not being met. The marital environment has degraded and vulnerability to an affair has been increased.

SO, in my very humble opinion, when BSs are encouraged here by us zealots <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> to examine what ENs they weren't meeting in the marriage, it's not about what caused the affair - it's about what could have been done to better prevent an affair. After all, the WS is likely to blame the BS's failure to meet ENs as the cause so the BS may as well eliminate the "causes" in order to take away the WS's excuses. Further, assuming the affair ends, reconciliation can be easier and more successful is the BS finds and fixes whatever they may have contributed to the poor marital environment preceeding the affair - however minimal it might be.

So, I disagree with the 10% estimation. 0% of affairs were caused by unmet needs. But I'd estimate that the vast majority of affairs could have been averted had ENs been met. To poo-poo the notion that unmet needs are in the affair recipe likely provides a false excuse for BSs to not examine their role.

WAT..

Couple of things..The teacher leaving the room as cause for students to misbehave is placing blame for one persons actions on another person..this would model unmet ENs..not boundary failure.

I fully agree that unmet EN = Unhappy marriage..just firmly disagree that Unhappy Marriage = Affair.

I agree that the relative value a person places on the marriage could greatly affect their decision when tempted to cheat..but again..this would be, as TA outlined, low level functioning with only your own pleasure taken into consideration. This type of thinking suggests..to me anyway..that they are semi-fog bound already when the opportunity strikes.

I DO think that all BS/WS should examine their marital history..and become knowledgeable about affair dynamics, and the importance of ENs in maintaining intimacy. Not all may agree with me, though.

Rats, I'm out of time..but will return to this later, perhaps tomorrow.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong>The teacher leaving the room as cause for students to misbehave is placing blame for one persons actions on another person..this would model unmet ENs..not boundary failure.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Huh?

The classroom example was my analogy to illustrate that one can't blame the actions of one person on that of another. How does it MODEL unmet needs?

WAT

Let me first say that this thread is truly amazing. I don't post often but read every day, and I don't think I've come across a more interesting topic. I've recently been thinking about these very same issues.

I agree that BS should examine their part in the R pre A; however, I don't agree that my Hs A could have been averted had I been meeting his needs. I've had a problem with this concept since I first discovered this site and Harley's books. Neither my H nor I were meeting each others needs, but I didn't have an A. I had lots of opportunities over the years, but honestly, it never even occurred to me. My H, on the other hand, took the opportunity. I don't believe for a second that it had ANYTHING to do with me. It was all about him. He has always had self-esteem issues and at the time the A began was dealing with some pretty big life changes. (me trying to have a baby, starting a new career path, turning 40) The first little tramp that made herself available and made him feel young and sexy and smart was all it took. He's always needed to be admired by other women. Even I enjoy the attention I might get from someone else on occasion. So maybe I have a small need for admiration from men other than my husband. That's a need my H simply can't meet. Does that make me more likely to have an affair? I don't think so. Because I have boundaries. I might flirt with someone, but I'm not going any further than that, and I know when and how to stop it. He doesn't.

My H has told me that his biggest problem is that he "compartmentalizes" his life. He put her in one compartment and me in another - ne'er the two shall meet. He says he was happy with me, never stopped loving me, and never wanted our marriage to end. He just wanted what he wanted. Furthermore, if he had needs he wasn't getting from me, all he had to do was TELL ME ABOUT IT. But that goes against the grain of his "compartmentalizing" nature.

One think I have learned over the last few months is that neither of us have had good boundaries, and I really think changing that is what will make another A less likely. I can meet all his needs every day but it won't amount to a hill of beans if he still doesn't have good boundaries.

Just my 2¢
Thanks for reading.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong>I fully agree that unmet EN = Unhappy marriage..just firmly disagree that Unhappy Marriage = Affair.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't say Unhappy marriage = Affair. If I believed this, I would have had my own affair about ten years before my wife had hers and she would have had hers earlier, I presume.

All I was saying - and I think we're in violent agreement - is that the affair decision is conscious on the part of the WS and that this decision is made easier if ENs haven't been met. Very simple.

WAT