::::The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair.

CM: We need to define the "inconsiderate" behaviors of a BS, which makes a WS return the "thoughtless" behavior by having a iddy biddy A. How does that compare with a husband not noticing his wife's hair colour (Bob Pure's classic) or constantly forgetting to wipe his muddy boots before he enters the house? Who could blame a woman for having sex with OM when she is sick and tired of mud tracks thru her home? Not me!

Do we measure the emotional intelligence of a WS who has an A, when their partner doesn't attend to their every demand for attention and perfection? And what about the WS, one assumes they reached perfection previously and decided on an A in order to inspire their BS to be perfect like themselves.

Frankly I cannot see how anyone holds to the EN's theory considering the enlightened age we live in. We have learned about how physical attraction sets off a chain reaction of powerful addictive chemicals in the ensared to a new attraction. Why are we still trying to blame it on the innocent party, who was unfortunate enough to be coupled with such weak individuals? From my observatons, people tend to be far more faithful in sh*tty marriages than people in good marriages.

AN

Smur,

I respectfully disagree with your assumption that this is an exercise in futility."An unexamined life is not worth living".If we just lay down and die and try not to understand one of life's most horrific and painful traumas,why is there even a website like this? Why do researchers continue on their quest EACH day to find a cure for cancer or for better treatment.Have the thousands of people in this quest given up purely because the answer is not a clear to them yet? No.This thread,like many other's is great because it gets people to THINK outside the box,gets people talking.And,in order not to repeat the same mistakes,we need to carefully examine each and every aspect to this problem that pervades this country now.

Orchid,

I also agree that the heart and mind do not always have to be in sinc to be able to make an appropriate choice.This pertains to A's as well and why IMO I did not choose to commit adultery.My heart was also screaming to me to put up with more,wait longer,suck it up to my WH because I loved him so much,he was the love of my life,I NEEDED him and I LOVED him but my MIND was telling me that this is no way to be treated even by someone such as my WH.That I care enough about *myself not to let anyone treat me this way despite my feelings.It's still hard but logically and rationally I know this is the right choice for me,to file for a D.I have nothing left with which to work with on this marriage.I cannot be in this marriage alone.It takes two.My WH cannot even say the word anymore.It's over.

anyname,

I have more to respond to you but I have to go do some errands.I will get back to you on your last post.

O

<small>[ December 06, 2004, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Noodle,

I also hold the same beleif that it is the crossing of marital boundaries that is the precursor for a married person to become involved in an affair no matter what the causes that may have sparked the affair. Even the late Dr Shirley Glass in her last book 'Not Just Friends' has stated that affairs can happen even in happy marriages when marital boundaries are crossed. So I have no issue with your thread on boundaries. My issue is with the posters who repeat the erroneous beleif that Dr Harley says that unmet EN is the main reason people fall into affairs, when it is clearly not.

Anyname,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by anyname:
::::The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair.

CM: We need to define the "inconsiderate" behaviors of a BS, which makes a WS return the "thoughtless" behavior by having a iddy biddy A. How does that compare with a husband not noticing his wife's hair colour (Bob Pure's classic) or constantly forgetting to wipe his muddy boots before he enters the house? Who could blame a woman for having sex with OM when she is sick and tired of mud tracks thru her home? Not me!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your examples are fogspeak from Bob's FWW and thus not a good examples of inconsiderate or thoughtless behavior. Far better examples are those in which the potential BS has a habit of Independent Behavior [a love buster] OR practicing Dishonesty [another love buster] by making promises to the future WS which 90% of the time never keeps or intends to keep [i.e. consistently buying outrageously expensive items without consulting the other spouse first OR consistently telling his/her W/H that he/she would spend the weekend with the H/W only to appeace him/her but actually spends it with others, etc]. In both of these cases, if the future WS has not reciprocated in kind, he/she will be more vulnerable to crossing marital boundaries and get involved in an affair if he/she meets an OP who treats him/her with thoughtfulness and keeps his/her promises to the WS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do we measure the emotional intelligence of a WS who has an A, when their partner doesn't attend to their every demand for attention and perfection? And what about the WS, one assumes they reached perfection previously and decided on an A in order to inspire their BS to be perfect like themselves.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In those categories I would question more the psychological health of the WS more than his/her emotional intelligence. But there are many WS who do not fall into your neat, simple and convenient categories and who are people who normally would have never thought that they would find themselves involved in an affair.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Frankly I cannot see how anyone holds to the EN's theory considering the enlightened age we live in.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because human nature does not change to suit the political correctness of the times. Infidelity, male and female, has been around since the beginning of the human race. Just because Dr Harley's concepts are controversial and not very politically correct does not invalidate the truth behind them. Furthermore, being an enlightened person in a few areas of life does not make you enlightened in ALL the other areas of life, as the late physicist Richard Feynman said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe that a scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've read too many posts in which a fellow BS seldom talks about how he/she has love busted his WS while singing the praises of how he/she has met all of the WS EN. They either forget or simply don't beleive that love busters are extremely caustic to a marriage, and in many cases, much more than unmet EN.
-----------------------------
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We have learned about how physical attraction sets off a chain reaction of powerful addictive chemicals in the ensared to a new attraction.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you've been around this forum, you will have read many stories in which the BS finally saw the OP and could not beleive his/her eyes that the WS got involved with an OP who was, to put it mildly, definitely less attractive that him/her. So physical attraction is seldom the principal factor in the chosing of an OP.

Sure physical attraction cannot be discounted for underneath the veneer of civilized clothing, men and women are hardwired to be physically attracted to one another. And even those cases, where the WS is very physically attracted to an OP, could it be a symptom rather than a cause? Let's face it many men and women have a tendency to let themselves go physically after they get married because they beleive that the committment their spouse made to them gives them the right to say to themselves 'I will become as unattractive as I want be and my H/W is just going to have to deal with it'. Keeping yourself attractive is also a good indicator of how much respect and love you have for yourself, which in many cases [sans the narcissistic ones] will say how much respect and love you have for your spouse as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why are we still trying to blame it on the innocent party, who was unfortunate enough to be coupled with such weak individuals? From my observatons, people tend to be far more faithful in sh*tty marriages than people in good marriages.

AN</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When you say 'We' please speak for yourself for I have NEVER said that the BS was responsible for the WS decision to have an affair. I have always held the beleif that the WS is 100% responsible for his/her decision to have an affair but BOTH WS and BS are equally responsible for the bad state of the marriage. And I'm not the only one that has expressed this beleif as well, so please be kind not to include me in that 'We' group.

It's been my observation that many BS [prior to them marrying their WS] chose "to be coupled with such weak individuals" because they are in a fog of their own in which they gloss over their future H/W weaknesses even though people close to the BS have warned them about them. Lemonman who in his thread talked about his MIL saying to him:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She always felt like I was the man who saved her daughter from a miserable life of partying, drugs and her EX boyfriend.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This proves that not just dumb guys [like yours truly] CHOSE not to see the truth about the future WS moral weaknesses, but smart guys [like lemonman] do as well.

How many of those shi**y marriages that you speak of would not have taken place if the future BS had accepted the ugly truth from those closest to them about their future mate's moral shortcomings and the truth that love alone would not change them? Without a doubt my first marriage would have never taken place if I had had the fortitude to accept the sad truth about my future XWW issues and walked away from her for my own good. You could say that I violated my own boundaries of protecting myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

TMCM

<small>[ December 06, 2004, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

anyname,

I am not negating your 37 years to your WH at all however,when you say that he was first,you placed him first and you supported him,you gave away yourself.Marriage is supposed to be an equal partnership.I am not saying that both H and W are supposed to do the same exact things in the marriage but IMO it's should be more like a team effort,especially when kids are involved.Two partners walking side by side,not one ahead of the other.It tips the scales.

Would you agree that we are not *solely our marriages? Aren't we all wearing many hats: spouse,friend,lover,parent,Nurse(me)educator,protector,nurturer,sister,brother,son,daughter,etc,etc.If all these areas are forgotten or not nurtured and only the marriage is the priority and it fails,what then? I have read so many people's posts here that have no idea what to do with themselves after the inital shock of the A wears off.They truly seem to have lost their sense of self.I know that I don't only identify my self worth by what my marriage is doing.It's great to be supprotive of one another in a marriage but it should not supercede your own worth.This is when you give other's the power to define who you are.So no,IMO you are not supposed let yourself be defined *thru anyone else.The actions and decisions you make within the marriage can define you as do all other actions and decisions.

Also,if you don't mind my saying so,I don't believe that by giving your WH time alone lead him to cheat.That is a cop out,sorry.I do not believe that having a life outside of a marriage is detrimental to it.On the contrary,it can be quite healthy if you are not all tied up in only that.Of course,what is done with that time alone or with other's is very important to the state of marriage.In other words,if my WH took that time off from our marriage alone to go to strip bars,well,there's no way that that is healthy or conducive to a happy marriage,for me anyway. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

In my view and from reading here all this time,it appears to me that those who recover quicker and are more assured about their decisions are those that have a lot of self worth and have a life outside of their marriages.They realize that life will go on and can be fulfilling *still* because they have other outside relationships and activities going on.This is the case for me as an example: I have a wonderful family,In-Laws and SIL and Niece(soon to be nephew too),I have activities and hobbies that keep me busy,I continue to learn,pray,continue to immerse myself in my childrens worlds and I am LOVING it,I continue to help other's whether that is here or at my job taking care of a disbaled young woman on a ventilator,enjoying my life and my dog,etc,etc.Does this make sense? If all I could think about was the loss of my marriage and that it was where all my worth and being was tied into,I probably would be dead from the sheer painful monumental loss of it.But I am still here because I know that there is more to this life than just my marriage and I will even go further to say that this crisis/challenege brought into my life was for a reason and to bring me closer to God.This is my view.

Hope this clarifies/gels what I am feeling.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
O

"An unexamined life is not worth living".

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I suppose what I was trying to say earlier was that trying to find THE ONE reason which is to blame for all As is a futile exercise.

I think that trying to understand the background of reasons/circumstances/faulty thinking in your own case is absolutely necessary for personal and relationship recovery and growth.

What I meant by the 'random' element is that, even when you have all pieces of the puzzle, and can more or less understand what happened intellectually, its still difficult to accept that it happened, because even given those conditions an A was not inevitable.

<small>[ December 06, 2004, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: smur ]</small>

Very interesting thoughts on this thread. I have not been around MB lately so I missed getting in on the ground floor excitement. So many good ideas are already covered; I want to add a few data points, is all.

W’s A did not start as a Not Just Friends thing. There was no slippery slope. She was in bed with OMM within two days after meeting him for the first time. They were in Indonesia on a business trip. Half way around the world and no one need ever find out.

OMM is a player. He knew what he was doing. No bounds left for him to exceed. His life has been a flat, featureless plain for many, many years. Current loveless M is an A on his first W. He is a wealthy, good looking, steely-eyed fighter pilot and test pilot but he has bottomless ego related ENs, or something, no one person will ever be able to fill for him.

W was a good person with well-established boundaries, ethics and morals. I knew this about her from the beginning of our relationship. It’s one of the reasons I married her. She is smart, caring, loving, a good mother - DS was barely 2 years old and she doted on him. We had a good if somewhat nominal M.

Like all couples we had some occasional problems. I often felt ignored because her career became 90% of her identity. Periods of withdrawal I put down to normal ebb and flow of intimacy in a long term M. But I always instinctively met her ENs as best I understood them. Arguments and LBs were relatively minor, few and far between. She generally did more LBing than I did anyway, even before the A. She admits this. I often did a good imitation of a doormat out of fear and confusion. Had not yet heard of MB.

But I have a thicker skin. I did not hold onto resentments. She did. She calls it now her pot of green bubbling poison. Always added to, never ever emptied. This gave her landmarks for post A justifications, I think. But I don’t believe it was a primary factor in her decision to start the A.

So what happened? All her boundaries crashed, literally within hours. And once they were rubble they were gone for good, not returning for a decade.

Why it lasted for ten years is almost easy to understand compared to figuring out why it started in the first place. Intermittent reinforcement is a clinically studied phenomenon. It increases addiction much faster and makes it much stronger. Once her fences were plowed under, there were acres and acres of free and tasty emotional highs to graze on.

I have asked several times since DDay2 if she can explain what happened. It’s been almost a year since DD2 and she still cannot. They just clicked is the most I get. I’m no IC, but it appears to me she does not feel comfortable examining the conditions and her personal state of mind at the starting gate. It is very difficult for her. This is not due to problems feeling safe with me. She still cannot seem to crack this nut with IC, with whom she gets along very well. I believe her when she says she does not yet understand what happened so quickly all those years ago. And I believe she is still trying to understand.

It’s complicated. I do not know what was going on inside her head at the time the A started. Maybe she does not know either. But I will not feel safe until we figure at least some of it out.

So, for the sake of my own feelings of safety, sanity and ENs to fill, I try to fill in some of the blanks with various working hypotheses. Factors include very low self-esteem, a huge need for affirmation (i.e. flattery from OMM), a very strong independent streak, admitted selfishness, and an over-achiever Type A personality. She always goes after what she wants, and she usually gets it. Oh, and peer conditioning. Many of the executives in this large corporation have revolving A’s. It’s part of the executive compensation package. Just one example, the former CEO is on his 6’th M, all due to A’s with secretaries. It flows straight down the corporate ladder.

In our case I think it was much less a case of missing ENs within the M as a huge unfilled hole in her psyche. Like OMM, she has a bottomless pit of missing self-esteem. It can’t be fixed by me, or OMM. It may not be fixable by her. Maybe she is afraid of what she will find and cannot approach it. It may be a chronic condition with no cure but manageable with life-long effort from both of us. I sure wish I knew.


Second data point. I read frequent posts from FWSs about how they finally recognize their mistakes and their shortcomings and finally evicted their personal demons. I read where they claim they have worked so hard to fix their internal problems and now are good, god-fearing people. They are now people who will not again have an A and now their BS should trust them. I believe they mean this, for the most part. I believe they meant their vows on the wedding day, too.

But then, I go on to read that BSs should not feel smug because anyone can have an A if the conditions are right. “There but for the grace of God go you,” is a favorite WS refrain around here.

Ahhhh, this is goat-roping.

I spend more than a decade in a sterile, unfulfilling M while W squanders her ENs with an insatiable OMM, yet I do not have an A.

I have been tested many times and I passed every examination. Some of these were more like excruciations.

Let me tell you, FWSs, there is something about being a BH that powers up an electromagnetic babe magnet. I can’t explain it. It just happens. I could have had, be having, two very nice entangled A’s in just the past year with no more effort than rolling over. I could be having a third right now if I just took my hands off the controls and let the situation wander in that direction. There is no effort required to start an affair. The hard work is in not starting an affair!

But let me go back to just one of several specific examples I could give you. Three months after DD1, I am in a hot tub with a single female engineer while on a business trip. Everyone else leaves and she floats over to rub against me and asks me to come to her room and finish a bottle of scotch (and dry her off). She is gorgeous, smart, single, and has expressed previously how much she admires me. And I really admire her, mind and body.

Remember, this is while I am still mourning the loss of the innocence of my M after DDay1. The universe does not care what happens to me. I know I deserve her. I sort of feel W deserves her, too. I certainly don’t want to offend potential OW. In this past hour alone she has been a lot nicer to me than W has been for years and years. Why should I not take her up on her sweet and generous offer?

Well, in general order of importance:

1. It is morally wrong. It would distance me from God. This is one of the Ten Commandments, for cry’n out loud!
2. It is ethically wrong. It’s a betrayal of loyalty, intimacy and trust. The act itself, even ignoring potential consequences, will hurt me, W, DS, POW, and our entire families – even if no one ever finds out. And even though W already expertly executed this very betrayal.
3. No matter how much I hate what she did, I still love my W. I do not want to intentionally or unintentionally hurt her (very important this unintentional bit, so read it twice).
4. I took a solemn vow, with multiple layered promises of fidelity, before God, W, family, friends and community. I intentionally applied them to the rest of my life. And I meant it, dammit! I really did. I really did mean it.
5. I know myself. I don’t have these demons to exorcise. I am not that selfish. I care in general about hurting others. Even me. Sexual sins are sins against self, after all. I am not driven by unexplainable needs. I hate the unexplainable. Especially in me. And my wobbly bits don’t do my thinking for me.
6. I would eventually get caught. Come on WSs, you have to intentionally suppress your IQ to low double digits to get past this one.
7. My dad, though deceased for years, would be so disappointed in me.

FWSs, you need to realize that many people have been from the very beginning where you claim you are now. I do not need to indulge in an A to have the opportunity to work up to where I am already. I was pretty darn invulnerable to an A of any kind from the day I married. I already did all the work you now claim to be finally doing before I decided to make any exclusive lifetime commitments to my beloved W.

But, to stay safe I continue to maintain my boundaries, repair my fences, avoid temptation, examine my conscience and pray every day. I monitor my M and adjust EN meeting as best I can, even though it still seems to be a one-way mirror and I miss a lot.

I am not perfect. But in these matters I am pretty good. And I am not alone. In fact, I am sure I am in the majority.

T

::::Infidelity, male and female, has been around since the beginning of the human race.

Nuff said. I rest my case.

I'm sorry I don't have time to respond to your post thoroughly but will get back to you asap.

OG, My situation is probably a little different because the early part of my life was totally decicated to being a Jehovah's Witness. It swallowed us alive for the first few years of our marriage. When we escaped from it, we lost all our friends, our sense of place and all my family, (siblings, uncles aunts cousins) - we were excommunicated. We had to start over, with a new life and meet new people. (the strangest feeling imaginable - like moving to Russia!) Husband had to go back to university, and a big team effort was required to get into normal society and to make up for lost time economically. We were a great team but an experience like that is very life altering. We rebuilt togehter and we experienced our new found freedom together. It took a long time to work off the baggage and to learn to be normal. There was no help and no support. It was jsut the two of us. And me living with the grief of losing my entire family to the JWs, who would not allow them to talk to me. (H's family were not JWs) Naturally, I turned all my energy to protecting my immediate family. In fact one very old family friend told me. "think of your lovely husband and two beautiful little children" and focus on them now. Focus on what you have, not what you've lost. So I did. They were everything to me.

AN

::::::Far better examples are those in which the potential BS has a habit of Independent Behavior [a love buster] OR practicing Dishonesty [another love buster] by making promises to the future WS which 90% of the time never keeps or intends to keep [i.e. consistently buying outrageously expensive items without consulting the other spouse first OR consistently telling his/her W/H that he/she would spend the weekend with the H/W only to appeace him/her but actually spends it with others, etc]. In both of these cases, if the future WS has not reciprocated in kind, he/she will be more vulnerable to crossing marital boundaries and get involved in an affair if he/she meets an OP who treats him/her with thoughtfulness and keeps his/her promises to the WS.

CM

These actions are so rare in connection to infidelity, I think it's unfair and hurtful to mention them in the same breath as the 'norm' BS, many of whom were wonderful supportive partners. In fact I think infidelity is a result of being too attentive and indulgent of a S.


::::But there are many WS who do not fall into your neat, simple and convenient categories and who are people who normally would have never thought that they would find themselves involved in an affair.

Sure, the majority of people fall into the category of those who were never going to have an A - but there is a common weakness demonstrated in those who are so easily sucked in to personal flattery - which is the seed of infidelity.

:::Infidelity, male and female, has been around since the beginning of the human race. Just because Dr Harley's concepts are controversial and not very politically correct does not invalidate the truth behind them.

A's have been happening since the dawn of time. The reason is that we are biologically programmed to mate. We are not programmed to marry - marriage is a very new institution, in our evolutionary history (clearly still got teething problems). We evolved biologically to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex, and mate, and stay together for approx seven years (according to the experts). The time it takes to raise an infant to self sufficiency. Along the way we developed hormones that are secreted during sexual activity and cuddling to encourage long term bonding, but they are not always as powerful as the chemical response is to a new attraction. Cheating is a simple case of millions of years of biological evolution designed to ensure the continuance of our species. Simply put, we are still not sophisticated enough to deny our primative responses. (well, some of us aren't)

When a man finds a woman sexually attractive, and she responds in kind, it sets off a huge chemical reaction in their bodies - they both flushed with chemical "uppers". For this same man to stop and think; "mmm this woman is really HOT, and my wife has been spending too much money on the bankcard all year, so I'm just going to give in to my lustful urges"! It's absurd to suggest that if his wife was perfect, giving him everything he wanted, he would be able to resist the interested OW. Sexual attraction and desire are about memememememememe. I really don't think the bankcard bill or the wife, and her endless short comings enters the equation. The man involved, either has the moral fibre to denounce betrayal or he is too overwhelmed and flattered to resist the ego ride.

AN

:::::::::::The thing about boundaries..is that they are so protective..that I am suprised at the sheer strength of resistance to implementing them. It suggests to me that either people do not realize their relative value..or they do not truly wish to change the behavior patterns that have led them here.

NOODLE, I took a digital photo today of a woman, back on, wearing a tshirt that said: ***Noodles have no bountaries**! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I believe the former is the case. People do not realise their relative value. But, don't forget, life wears on and people get bogged down with a lot of big problems and it's just so easy to take things for granted when you have other more presssing worries. Plus, most people live by their personality traits, which dictate how assertive, accepting, tolerant, patient, trusting, otimistic ect ect etc they are.

::::More importantly perhaps than boundaries just as they relate to As..is how they relate to everything else. Boundaries seem to be the answer to a lot of questions..including unmet ENs and circumstances and recovery and future improved circumstances.

I read your parenting analogy. But can you give me an example of boundaries in M? I must be so dumb coz, I am not sure that I'm on your wave length about what you are expounding.

AN

:::::Also,if you don't mind my saying so,I don't believe that by giving your WH time alone lead him to cheat.That is a cop out,sorry.I do not believe that having a life outside of a marriage is detrimental to it.

OG, It shouldn't, if that has been the norm. We were together almost always since ages 14 and 15. At age 50, H went back O/S to work, spending time on his own, for the first time ever. Prior to that, our lives had been closely entwined, and we both enjoyed each others company constantly - and prided ourselves on a wonderfully happy relationship. I'm not sure what I'm copping out of by blaming my H's cheating on his living on his own. A wife and family, can be seen as a support system - without it a man can become lost and uncertain about decision making, when the process has always been a shared one. The temptation to try the forbidden fruit, is only great, if there is easy access and opportuniy. That's why it's not recommeneded, especially by Dr. Harley, to spent time apart.

::::In my view and from reading here all this time,it appears to me that those who recover quicker and are more assured about their decisions are those that have a lot of self worth and have a life outside of their marriages.They realize that life will go on and can be fulfilling *still* because they have other outside relationships and activities going on.

I couldn't agree more. I have never enjoyed a high level of self belief. Being a badly dyslexic child I developed an inferiority complex that I've never quite shed. It caused me to shun a career, in the belief that I wouldn't be competent enough to do anything interesting. I therefore invested all my time and energy in my H. I as willing to take a back seat and support him, because I knew he was very bright. It's true that I am floundering with recovery. To be honest I still spend a great deal of my time wondering how I can walk away, but I fear life on my own. I don't want to accept my H's behavior but I feel powerless to do anything but remain in a marriage to a man, who's behavior I cannot accept. (remember his infidelity was with a poor young asian girl who flashed her rather large t*ts at him and said come here big boy). I cannot bear old men and young asian girls together. I've always been replused by this combo. And now I'm married to a man who chose this for himself and for me. Part of me desperately wants out, but I'm am defined by my M and my lack of career and education and I feel a hundred years behind the times. If I was a doctor, like my daughter, or a brilliant young medical researcher like my son, I could tell my H of 30 yrs to F off. Coz, it sickens to to the core of my being, that I have to live with his willingness to behave like a low life sleez bag.

So, yes you are right to suggest a person should define their own life and happiness, but pls spare some compassion for those who have lived a long time in the shadow of another - and learn the hard way that is was a mistake.

AN

"Cheating is a simple case of millions of years of biological evolution designed to ensure the continuance of our species". UGH.

I never thought I would hear a woman drag up that excuse but there it is.I have only heard guys use this statement before. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I hardly think in this day and age(2004)that bad behavior(adultery) can be summed up with this rationale,especially since we are a planet of 6 plus BILLION and counting.Procreation is not an immediate concern IMO.And I would like to think that we as a human race ARE more intelligent and "sophisticated" to be cognizant of our failings when we allow only emotion and urges to guide our decision making.All of us here can attest to how poorly that works.

Neither am I shouting,"Let's all be like O girl!".If I didn't have any compassion for people AN then I wouldn't be here supporting people and discussing what has worked for me,in my life and how I think some people may benefit from my experience,that is all.Aren't we all just sharing our experiences here? To learn? We all have different pasts absolutely but anyone can change the course of their lives even today.We all have the power to lead happy and fulfilling lives,we have that choice.

However,we have to lay the groundwork,even if it's only this little website right now,to help people understand the harmful effects of the choice to commit adultery.Our member total is reaching 40,000 soon and when I got here it was 31,288.More and more people in pain,more people divorced,more families and children hurt from this supposed evolutionary programming? No.We have overcome many other "primal" urges of necessity over all these years.Adultery is a continuing familial,marital,personal,societal issue like any other: murder,rape,abuse,drugs,etc.All of these things still happen and it's because a person makes a CHOICE to do them.This is where the focus should be IMO.

Thos,

I read your post last night.It was very good.And you are right,you are not alone.There are many of us who share your ideas.

O

*edited for typos,as usual*

<small>[ December 07, 2004, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by anyname:
::::::Far better examples are those in which the potential BS has a habit of Independent Behavior [a love buster] OR practicing Dishonesty [another love buster] by making promises to the future WS which 90% of the time never keeps or intends to keep [i.e. consistently buying outrageously expensive items without consulting the other spouse first OR consistently telling his/her W/H that he/she would spend the weekend with the H/W only to appeace him/her but actually spends it with others, etc]. In both of these cases, if the future WS has not reciprocated in kind, he/she will be more vulnerable to crossing marital boundaries and get involved in an affair if he/she meets an OP who treats him/her with thoughtfulness and keeps his/her promises to the WS.

CM

These actions are so rare in connection to infidelity, I think it's unfair and hurtful to mention them in the same breath as the 'norm' BS, many of whom were wonderful supportive partners. In fact I think infidelity is a result of being too attentive and indulgent of a S.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are they that rare? I don't think so. I've met quite a few BS [myself included <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ] and while the great majority of them were, as you said, wonderful supportive partners, at least 3 out 10 were not very nice people prior to their WS affair. Does there behavior excuse their WS affair? Of course not. There is no excuse to have an affair but it could be argued that in those cases where the BS was a complete pig/bit** [don't tell me that they don't exist, because you know very well that they do], the affair may have been averted or had an extremely short life, if the marital relationship had been a healthier one to begin with.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">::::But there are many WS who do not fall into your neat, simple and convenient categories and who are people who normally would have never thought that they would find themselves involved in an affair.

Sure, the majority of people fall into the category of those who were never going to have an A - but there is a common weakness demonstrated in those who are so easily sucked in to personal flattery - which is the seed of infidelity.

I really don't think the bankcard bill or the wife, and her endless short comings enters the equation. The man involved, either has the moral fibre to denounce betrayal or he is too overwhelmed and flattered to resist the ego ride.

AN</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh if only that were the case for then rebuilding a marriage would be a lot easier, wouldn't it?

Flattery or ego stroking may be the seed of ONS or extremely short flings, but for most affairs the true weakness is not flattery or ego stroking but ignorance of the danger of crossing marital boundaries with a friend of the opposite sex that brings them together not just physically but emotionally as well. Remember that full blown affairs are not solely composed of extra-marital sex but also of extra-marital feelings of deep affection and caring that are very much like those at the beginning of the marriage. Is it any wonder then that affairs become like addictions? In those situations, the sexual part of an affair is just the tip of the iceberg.

Lastly consider the following. After an affair, a great many BS eventually have a affair of their own. Why? because they were prime candidates for an affair long before the WS had his/her affair. Is flattery or ego stroking the seed of their infidelity?

Here's an excerpt from Peggy Vaughn the founder of BAN [Beyond Affairs Network] and the author of 'The Monogamy Myth':

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why Do People Have Affairs?

The first question most people ask when they learn of their partner's affair is, "Why?" And the answers they come up with are usually based on personal blame. They blame themselves, their partner, their relationship, or the third party. They see it strictly as a personal problem, a personal failure of the people involved. This is a very simple explanation for a very complex question.

Usually there are three different kinds of forces that are working together:

Forces within the individual that pull them toward affairs
Forces within the individual that push them toward affairs
Societal factors

Forces within the individual that pull them toward affairs:

Attraction: sex, companionship, admiration, power
Novelty
Excitement, risk, or challenge
Curiosity
Enhanced self-image
Falling in love

Forces within the individual that push them toward affairs:

Desire to escape or find relief from a painful relationship
Boredom
Desire to fill gaps in an existing relationship
Desire to punish one's partner
Need to prove one's attractiveness or worth
Desire for attention

Societal influences:

Affairs are glamorized in movies, soap operas, romance novels, and TV shows of all kinds. Public disclosure of public figures having affairs is headline news because we are fascinated and titillated by hearing of others' affairs.

People are bombarded with images of women as sex objects in advertising and marketing campaigns. Over and over, the message to men is that the good life includes a parade of sexy women in their lives. Women inadvertently buy into this image and strive to achieve it.

The lack of good sex education and the existence of sexual taboos combine to make it difficult for most partners to talk honestly about sex.

As teenagers we get conditioned in deception when it comes to sex—engaging in sexual activity while hiding it from our parents.

The code of secrecy is a major factor in affairs because it provides protection for the person having affairs and leads them to believe they won't get caught.

Bottom Line: There is no ONE single reason a person has an affair. There are usually many reasons, including some of the forces that pull them toward affairs and some of the forces that push them toward affairs, combined with the influence of the general factors in society that contribute to affairs.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

What a great thread noodle,

There are SOooo many mitigating circumstances to an A, it's what makes each A unique.

My experience also included the familial. Dad was a cheater. And I recently read a letter FWH had from his Grandfather where he asked his grandson about his trip to the beach and he wrote for a couple of paragraphs about the bathing beauties, the skimpy bikinis, and asked about grandson's (FWH's) sexual exploits. Crossing the line I think, and a HUGE green light to my H that casual sex was A-OK in his book...

When we were first M I asked him if he would ever cheat on me, and his reply was always..."No one would ever have me..." AAAAAhhhhh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> That said to me as soon as one person gave him the attention he needed and a green light, he was on...

Character flaw? Probably. But can someone change their character? Their core?

When I ask him now if he will ever cheat again, he says "No, I don't want to lose you."

What do I believe?

Factors in creating environment for an A? (In my experience)

1. ENs not being met
2. LBs in M and a depleted Lovebank with S.
3. Opportunity (trip from home)
4. Friends support (getting talked into it because friends do not support M)
5. Learned behavior
6. .....


More?

:::::I never thought I would hear a woman drag up that excuse but there it is.I have only heard guys use this statement before.

OG, I had no idea this wasn't common knowledge. I read it in everything I pick up about relationships and I've always been interested in the anthropologists like Desmond Morris for example - one of the worlds greatest people watchers. I feel complimented that I am the first female you have come across to comment on this.

::::I hardly think in this day and age(2004)that bad behavior(adultery) can be summed up with this rationale,especially since we are a planet of 6 plus BILLION and counting.

It's the only rationale that makes sense to me. 6billion people? Shows you how potent the biology is huh? (especially when you throw in the 1918 flu epidemic and two world wars)

:::Procreation is not an immediate concern IMO.

Of course not. But the mechanisms that evolved in man, to promote the survival of the species, is coded into our behavior.


::And I would like to think that we as a human race ARE more intelligent and "sophisticated" to be cognizant of our failings

well at least 50% of married people cheat - so one presumes we are not very sophisticated. It certainly doesn't seem to have much to do with intelligence.

I'm off to bed in this part of the world.

AN

Potent biology? How about rape and incest,not to mention our ubiquitous friend adultery and lack of birth control in many of these situations.Our soaring numbers on this planet is not necessarily a good thing even though it is happening.Just like the rising numbers of Infidelity.

Also,I am not entirely sure but what I think you just told me is you accept evolutionary programming as the "only rationale" behind adultery? I would have to wholeheartedly disagree with that assessment.

And,I still would like* to think that we as a human race are more sophisticated about relationships today even though there are those that choose to behave in a selfish and inappropriate manner(adultery).I personally do not think intelligence is absent when it comes to choices we make but rather the ongoing dilemma is why some people *choose* to cheat and other's such as myself do not.I will not be lumped in with others who behave in such a way.Someone has to stand for marriage and vows and truth.If we all just cave and sucuumb to our urges what will become of our society in the future? What about FAMILY?

I suppose it's possible(worth investigating) that many of us a BS's have a highly developed Ego and well developed Superego whereas those who cheat may have an unhealthy Id response.

What I am missing in your posts AN and of course in many from a WS and society is the outrage in this siutation.But it would not be the first nor last of a world problem that fails to receive the attention it rightly deserves.Female circumcision comes to mind as well as past atrocities such a Bosnia and now Darfour for examples.I don't want to push this thread into a whole nother realm but I hope I get my point across.You seem to accept Infidelity as a common but irradicable problem.You seem resigned that this is our future.

Please forgive me if I have the wrong imnpression but it is my impression nonetheless.It's the apathetic and misguided attitudes I see and hear about such causes that help lead them to still be present in our society.

O

Thos,

Wow...are we twins separated at birth? It is almost scary how much both your ideas, and the events your marriage parallel mine....just switch the genders. It has been excruciating to try and sort out what reason there was for my husband's boundary failures, but after all this time...he has never been able to really explain it to my satisfaction. It simply doesn't make sense in a traditional MB way...and never has. I'm convinced that his narcissism, entitlement, and the idea that he can operate outside of the rules with no impunity, is part of an unawakened or deadened area of his character that will either need to be nurtured and grown, or guarded diligently the way one would an addiction. The jury is still out.

Star*fish,

Did you have to deal with an LTA too? I've probably read it in some thread or other, but I can't remember off the top of my head. If you did, how has your M/recovery turned out so far? Any WOW (Words Of Wisdom)?

It sure would be helpful if WS could explain their actions to some degree, wouldn't it. Can they not examine what they did for fear of what they will find in self-discovery? Just not practiced at self-awareness? Not want to have to set boundaries or enforce personal ethics and morals? Too much just plain work?

Like many here, I hear a certain amount of, "I made a mistake. I do not want to be defined by my mistakes. We need to move on."

One thing about an LTA though, it is not a simple mistake, as so many WS's say about shorter As. The LTA personality either always was or eventually becomes a part of who they really are. Living a lie for ten years is not a mistake. It is a chosen lifestyle and conciously lived day-to-day for a significant part of their adult life. This deceptive personality trait must eventually become an integrated part of who they are. It will require a huge effort to redefine themselves. So I wonder how many M's that suffer an LTA actually do recover. To the WS, there must not be much of an M to be concerned with to have an LTA.

Not that it can't be done, change their very personality. But it is not anything like picking yourself up and fixing the fallout of a ONS or a fling.

W has some FOO issues, too. She is sort of a reincarnation of her father. Nothing she did was ever good enough for him. He was emotionally abusive to a degree. She is often the same way towards DS and me. And she stores up the frustrations of our perceived imperfections and uses it to justify her actions, including LBs, DJs and even her affair (although not so much of this last one lately).

I don't see much narcissism in my W. But there is certainly a sense of selfish entitlement. I got, "It was something just for me," after DDay2, for example.

Just for her. Almost everything since we married has been for her. But since digesting MB principles I am slowly changing that. Might be one of the reasons she does not like me coming here.

I think we will have to POJA my MB addiction soon. Anyone else here have to POJA MB with a FWS? How do I present my case?

T