Hey all

I was wondering from some of the BS's and maybe some Vets around here. Some of you may know that my WW and I have been doing about a month and a half of MC/IC since Dday. Yet my WW is still trying to find out "what she wants"! I'm getting so tired of hearing that. She is still keeping her secret life, lies to me, and stays out on Fri's and Sat's till the next morning, and seems to have no respect of my feeling or my pain. Yet she still denies that she has slept with OM. Her best GF told me that my WW told her that she hasn't done anything with him and only stayed the night at his house once and that she wasn't going to do it again.

Is this normal for WS's as far as actually going to MC/IC and still denying everything, even though I have caught her in lies?

How long will a WS "try to find out what she wants" (okay lets see them 2x4's, I know she will try until I stop letting her try).

I'm still trying to do Plan A, no LB's, no AO's, and saying nice things. I've backed off from physical affection because of another thread. I'm pretty sure I've been able to detach from her, but I'm fearing a loss of love for her. Not because I can't live without her, I know I can, but because I do love her and don't want to see her end up in a bad place! Any advice guys? 2x4's are welcome of course, they can't hurt as much as other things...

Just about 7 weeks since D-Day for me and my WW is still in "I am not sure what I want" mode. I guess the one good thing about my situation is that I am positive that she will not be having a relationship with OM.

I just don't know if WW will comit to NC and then our marriage for sure.

At the same time I feel like she will both stay forever and leave forever.

Very crazy stuff.

Hey Greer,

Yeah I don't know what this "finding myself" garbage is. I'm back in the church and have faith and that gives me hope and some peace. Like I said I think I've detached (maybe in denial) I know I can/have changed. Although I won't admit to being the monster that she says I was/am. I had faults but who doesn't, I think I was a normal husband (whatever that is). My problems are the continued secrecy, lies, staying out all night, and still seein OM!!!

It seems to do no good to go through marriage counseling if your WS is still in contact with OP. The OP is a drug and your WS is addicted. Until they go "sober" and go through withdrawals, there's not alot we can do to "convince" them to stay. The best thing to do is a good plan A until its time to go into plan B. Just my 2 cents...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by native00:
<strong> Hey all

She is still keeping her secret life, lies to me, and stays out on Fri's and Sat's till the next morning, and seems to have no respect of my feeling or my pain. Yet she still denies that she has slept with OM. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SIGH********** well RE-READ your post please. Is there any reason why you ACCEPT this behavior? You are NOT in marriage recovery. Your "Plan A" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> is simply ENABLING her affair right now. This is all pretty evident. I don't think you need a 2 X 4 from me here. It will not help. I am so sorry that somewhere along the way you "lost yourself" trying to save your marriage. Would you ever encourage a daughter to accept this behavior from a WS?

Please don't be offended by what I say. There will be a hundred people for my one response who will plead with you to continue PLan A. Hang in there.

Lemmonman, yes I think she's getting the status of cake eater. However I think my sit is a little different than most here. My WW and I are young, attractive, and the OM is a young guy from the club scene. I doubt he has a W or a GF course I could be wrong. Most of the posters here have the ability to expose to OMW, I don't. I have exposed to everyone that has influence of my WW.

Of course I wouldn't except this behavior from my daughter but I would be able to punish my daughter (at least until she was 18). I can't with my WW.

I've told her that it hurts me when she goes out, that it kills me inside.

So what your saying is Plan B now? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by native00:
<strong> Lemmonman, yes I think she's getting the status of cake eater. However I think my sit is a little different than most here. My WW and I are young, attractive, and the OM is a young guy from the club scene. I doubt he has a W or a GF course I could be wrong. Most of the posters here have the ability to expose to OMW, I don't. I have exposed to everyone that has influence of my WW.

Of course I wouldn't except this behavior from my daughter but I would be able to punish my daughter (at least until she was 18). I can't with my WW.

I've told her that it hurts me when she goes out, that it kills me inside.

So what your saying is Plan B now? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well my friend , as I customarily say..I am not in the business of marriage advice, but I am becoming experienced in "self recovery".

I really don't suscribe to these strategic "PLANS" to hoax a WS back. I really don't. BUT in your situation, it has been almost 2 MONTHS and CLEARLY what you are doing now IS NOT WORKING. For the record, your age and you and your WW attractiveness are not really a unique factor here. The simple fact that you can't expose the OM is not that germaine here. AS you said yourself, only you know when your love is dying for her...it sounds like it is ??? Your WW has not had to suffer any REAL consequences for her behavior. PLease get out of your DENIAL in believing that she has not has sexual relations with the OM. Her actions STRONGLY suggest otherwise. I also believe that this all continues to go on while you sit idly by and do "I'm still trying to do Plan A, no LB's, no AO's, and saying nice things". I really don't know what to say to you....but rarely will a WW wife just wake up one day and say "oh sorry, I am ready for the marriage again". You are going to have to get out of your "comfort" zone and make some hard choices with CONSEQUENCES you may not want to admit to. So to answer your question.........YOUR DAMN RIGHT I WOULD START PLAN B...LIKE YESTERDAY !!!!!!!!!

You are a grown man. Please preserve your dignity and self worth. This "marriage building" stuff should not be a contest of who can stand the most emotional, financial, and spiritual beatings. I really think you are in a bind here my friend. YOu have to make things happen. Telling her "it hurts me when you go out all night on firday and saturday night" is not really working now is it ? If you are not ready for that, it is ok, but please realize that you will continue to suffer as you have been. At this point, it is IMO that you are 100% responsible for your pain and suffering. You are knowingly accepting this. I can appreciate if this is a vent and what you really want is "support" to continue to PLan A, that is fine and then please disregard my posts. There are a lot of great posters here who can offer you "PLan A" support.

P.S. This may be technically called a 2 X 4, sorry.....I know better and will once again re-direct my energies at not 2 X 4'ing but just "supporting"... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ November 29, 2004, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: lemonman ]</small>

LOL, I have a hard time hearing that too. "I need to find myself" I am not sure what that is about either. I do know that it is valid for my WW. I wish I understood it better so I could be more patient.

She was in that mode hard core during the heaviest part of the P/A. "I want to be happy, I am going to do something for myself for the first time in my life".....blah, blah, blah. I never hit her or called her names or even came home drunk...not once.

I do know that I was a monster before the A. Not like calling names or anything but I was always in passive aggressive mode, even though she got everything that she wanted that I could give to her that she would accept.

I know that I own 50% of the bad behaviours that made it attractive for my wife to have the A.

I have the benefit of 250 miles between us and OM. The damn cell phone makes it much less though.

I am judging that my WW is still in the process of deciding if I can be trusted to change my bad behaviours as well as weather or not I can trust her again. In my mind both answers are yes, the long and short if it is that she must believe those things 100% also.

I guess my point is that the longer my WW can stay away from OM the better it is for our M. The crappy part is that the WS must make themselves to want to stay away. If they can not stay away then the BS has little choice but to continue on and follow up with the hard choices.

I have know that I can live without my wife and have let her know that. She also knows that I want her in my life. She also knows that I have already filed for divorce and that I will not make that filing go away until she comits to our M 100% along with a NC. I think she started on her NC attempts about 1 week after she was served with DV papers.

I guess my real point is that I did not lay down and take the worst of it without a fight. D-Day came and 2 weeks later she was served at about 9:45 am just as I was getting to work. I was forced to leave work and take our 2 year old out of the house for the day (I had to call the police to make it safe to do). That was the day that she feel to the pettiest point in our M.

From D-Day till now I have let her know that I will not be walked over and also that she is the most import person in the world for me after myself.

Dude, you must take care of you. Whatever that looks like for you. No one can tell you what to do or think. They can only share what their hell has been. Your hell might be similar in parts but it has been customized for you.

The best you can get from the rest of us is support in your decision and maybe some creative ideas on how you could proceed.

Again I say, take care of yourself and do it with passion.

Who watches your little children while your WW skips off to behave like an unmarried woman on the weekend?... YOU?

Tell ya what ... this weekend, when WW leaves ... you take those 3 babies and you go somewhere for the weekend ... and before you leave... you change the locks on the door. And you give your WW NO NOTICE of where you went, or when you might return. Take some time off from work if possible, and disappear with the kids for a week.

Expose the affair to WW's parents, your parents, and everyone else important in your life.

Return to your home at your leisure ... and be pleasant to your WW.

WW... "Where WERE you?"

YOU..."Out with the kids having a ball."

WW..."Why did you change the locks?"

You..."I need to feel more secure when I leave the house empty."

WW ... "Well I was worried."

You..."Yeah, me too. Would you like a cup of tea?"

Plan A is NOT enabling the affair ... plan A is removing any unloveable traits about yourself while exposing your WW to the consequences of her activity.

Expose ... and let her experience some consequences.

Pep

Harley suggests a MINIMUM 3 month long plan A. The average plan A lasts for 6 months. So unless another proper MB counsellor suggests otherwise in your situation, I would highly suggest you go by what the good doctor suggests on this site. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

native00, you are only at the very beginning of this journey. Rushing to end it will only lead you to the divorce court lawyer.

There is nothing you can do or say that will guarantee a change in your W's behaviours and actions. And as I"m sure you've already read on here many times over, you cannot control what your W says or does. You CAN however, control YOU.

Take the focus off of your W and her OM for a while. Focus on YOU. Be the best YOU that you can be. You can't change her. You can only change YOU.

When and if you feel that you cannot take anymore of your plan A because your lovebank is almost empty AND you know you've done a kicka$$ job at it, THEN you can start making your plan B plan.

Plan B will NOT work unless it is followed by a great plan A.

And keep on venting on this board. It was my personal lifeline for a long time, so I know it works. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Karen

p.s. btw.. exposing the A to an OP's spouse doesn't always make it easier to end the A. And on the same note, your situation is very much like most everyone elses on here.... it just doesn't FEEL like it when you're in it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Rock ON Pepperband! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BUT in your situation, it has been almost 2 MONTHS and CLEARLY what you are doing now IS NOT WORKING.

It sure does seem that way, I have had some times when I thought she lost the fog but then went right back into it.

Your WW has not had to suffer any REAL consequences for her behavior.

I believe that also, hence the cake-eater remark.

PLease get out of your DENIAL in believing that she has not has sexual relations with the OM. Her actions STRONGLY suggest otherwise.

I wouldn't call it denial because I have told myself that it has happened, it's just a doubt at times.

YOu have to make things happen.

Well said, I should have mentioned that I'm in the process of refinancing the house. It had been my plan to do Plan A so that I can still refinance (that may be selfish on my part I know) Once the refi is done, I really believe that I will be able to make those hard decisions.

Your post is appreciated, everyone is entitled to their opinions, including you. And I don't think others here should bash you for your thoughts. I thought I used to be a man/father/provider. I would like to think I could be that again one day.

Here's to hoping and faith and peace.
Native

Greer said: The crappy part is that the WS must make themselves to want to stay away. If they can not stay away then the BS has little choice but to continue on and follow up with the hard choices.

Thanks for the post Greergan! Yes I have read that, and I also know that I can't control my WW.

Greer: The best you can get from the rest of us is support in your decision and maybe some creative ideas on how you could proceed.

Support and ideas greatly appreciated!

Pep: Tell ya what ... this weekend, when WW leaves ... you take those 3 babies and you go somewhere for the weekend ... and before you leave... you change the locks on the door. And you give your WW NO NOTICE of where you went, or when you might return. Take some time off from work if possible, and disappear with the kids for a week.

Talk about a great idea, then she'd get the idea of what it would be like to miss the kids!! Thanks Pep!

Topie: Harley suggests a MINIMUM 3 month long plan A. The average plan A lasts for 6 months. So unless another proper MB counsellor suggests otherwise in your situation, I would highly suggest you go by what the good doctor suggests on this site.

Thanks Topie, I think I could last the 3 months, I would also want no regrets and be able to say that I gave it my all.

I should have mentioned in my original post that I was wondering if any BH's out there were going to MC/IC with their WW still lying and doing the things that my WW is doing and if that was common for a WS. I really appreciate all the input and I know that each of our sits are diffent but the same!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Topie25:
<strong> Harley suggests a MINIMUM 3 month long plan A. The average plan A lasts for 6 months. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, if at 6 weeks a BS is at their wits end and has lost every ounce of self worth and respect, they should keep going for another 4 weeks to get to the MINIMUM 3 months in???? LOL, I don't really think there are really MINIMUMS in all of this. It is this kind of thinking that always makes me think this place is almost cultist....JUST my opinions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , so carry on !

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by native00:
<strong> BUT in your situation, it has been almost 2 MONTHS and CLEARLY what you are doing now IS NOT WORKING.

It sure does seem that way, I have had some times when I thought she lost the fog but then went right back into it.

Your WW has not had to suffer any REAL consequences for her behavior.

I believe that also, hence the cake-eater remark.

PLease get out of your DENIAL in believing that she has not has sexual relations with the OM. Her actions STRONGLY suggest otherwise.

I wouldn't call it denial because I have told myself that it has happened, it's just a doubt at times.

YOu have to make things happen.

Well said, I should have mentioned that I'm in the process of refinancing the house. It had been my plan to do Plan A so that I can still refinance (that may be selfish on my part I know) Once the refi is done, I really believe that I will be able to make those hard decisions.

Your post is appreciated, everyone is entitled to their opinions, including you. And I don't think others here should bash you for your thoughts. I thought I used to be a man/father/provider. I would like to think I could be that again one day.

Here's to hoping and faith and peace.
Native </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Either way my friend, I wish the best for you. I feel sorry for you that you are even in this situation. This sucks. I am praying for you.

LM:So, if at 6 weeks a BS is at their wits end and has lost every ounce of self worth and respect, they should keep going for another 4 weeks to get to the MINIMUM 3 months in???? LOL, I don't really think there are really MINIMUMS in all of this. It is this kind of thinking that always makes me think this place is almost cultist....JUST my opinions. , so carry on !

Well I've never heard of SH until this board and after I read SAA. I think its really up to each individual person. The 3 months I believe are mearly a guidline. Some last longer others shorter. Every BS has their own personal minimum and pain that they are willing to take. Sometimes they lose part of themselves like you said but I hope that they can gain it back!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
So, if at 6 weeks a BS is at their wits end and has lost every ounce of self worth and respect, they should keep going for another 4 weeks to get to the MINIMUM 3 months in???? LOL, I don't really think there are really MINIMUMS in all of this. It is this kind of thinking that always makes me think this place is almost cultist....JUST my opinions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , so carry on ! [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is a SUGGESTION by Dr.Harley, not an outright rule. Logic must always come into play, and decisions should not be made based on emotions only... and someone who is at their "wits end" is more emotional than logical, IMO.

lemonman, if you think this place is so bad, then really, you should find a place that would be more in line to your way of thinking.

The purpose of this site is help and guide people en route to saving their M's, while using the MB principles. If you outright disagree with the principles (which includes the suggestions), then perhaps you should find another outlet to vent and project your situation onto.

Karen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pep: Tell ya what ... this weekend, when WW leaves ... you take those 3 babies and you go somewhere for the weekend ... and before you leave... you change the locks on the door. And you give your WW NO NOTICE of where you went, or when you might return. Take some time off from work if possible, and disappear with the kids for a week.

Talk about a great idea, then she'd get the idea of what it would be like to miss the kids!! Thanks Pep!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope you follow my little suggestion ... shake her up .... give her some doubts ... be a bit mysterious... and don't follow YOUR usual path ... give her pause to wonder ..."Hmmmmm... maybe he's not going to sit around and be placid and passive while I go out and have my fun??"

It's time to begin to create a crisis for HER ... during Plan A ... and it's not very difficult... just be creative and become unpredictable !!!

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Topie25:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
So, if at 6 weeks a BS is at their wits end and has lost every ounce of self worth and respect, they should keep going for another 4 weeks to get to the MINIMUM 3 months in???? LOL, I don't really think there are really MINIMUMS in all of this. It is this kind of thinking that always makes me think this place is almost cultist....JUST my opinions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , so carry on ! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is a SUGGESTION by Dr.Harley, not an outright rule. Logic must always come into play, and decisions should not be made based on emotions only... and someone who is at their "wits end" is more emotional than logical, IMO.

lemonman, if you think this place is so bad, then really, you should find a place that would be more in line to your way of thinking.

The purpose of this site is help and guide people en route to saving their M's, while using the MB principles. If you outright disagree with the principles (which includes the suggestions), then perhaps you should find another outlet to vent and project your situation onto.

Karen [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL, Karen.

That is not a bad idea <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . I will "try" and contain my thoughts that are not in "in line" with your thinking on these subjects. Yes, I agree with you, only those who suscribe fully to these MB principles should be allowed to post on the board. I also agree with you that a "stepford" community is a great place to learn and get "support" from. Thank you for your excellent suggestions, I will take them under advisement.

Sincerely,

LM

Pep:I hope you follow my little suggestion ... shake her up .... give her some doubts ... be a bit mysterious... and don't follow YOUR usual path ... give her pause to wonder ..."Hmmmmm... maybe he's not going to sit around and be placid and passive while I go out and have my fun??"

Pep could this be construed as a LB? I know that I can't take responsibility for what my WW thinks. I'm pretty sure she would take it as me trying to take the kids away from her.

LM:That is not a bad idea . I will "try" and contain my thoughts that are not in "in line" with your thinking on these subjects. Yes, I agree with you, only those who suscribe fully to these MB principles should be allowed to post on the board. I also agree with you that a "stepford" community is a great place to learn and get "support" from. Thank you for your excellent suggestions, I will take them under advisement.

I would hate to think that people are not able to express their thoughts and feelings on this board whatever those happened to be. At the same time the place is called MB and the principles that are given seem to work for some and not so much for others. So if it works for you go for it, if not then that's fine too.

I'm trying to see if this will work for me. Along with serious prayers with my church and MC. I'm trying everything that I can so that I CAN say that I gave it my all.

Hopefully before I loose myself, which is a valid point that LM has.