In his fog, WS said the big problem was our house is a mess. Of course, he has never done hardly anything to keep it clean. My son told him that part of the problem was that I had lost heart. I think the messy house is a symptom of things being bad. I mean 4 messy people + 2 dogs - 1 person who cleans cannot ever = a clean house. I need help and to be more efficient.

While searching these forums a while back, somebody had the address about a great website Fly something that addressed cleaning problems. I think it helped you schedule and keep on task. At that time I wasn't in a space where I could absorb anything. I'm willing to work on it. Can anybody give me that site again?

flylady.com I think.

Dunno if it's a symptom or a problem, but here is the website

http://www.flylady.net

He may feel he IS doing his part. If he does things like keeping the yard neat, the cars running, the gutters clean, etc, then he may feel he is helping.

I know that my house is a lot neater with WW gone, and I'm more comfortable in a neat house.

I don't do it alone, when YD is here, I do hold her responsible for picking up her toys. (WW said it was easier to just do it herself than to pick up, I disagreed and wanted to put some effort in up front teaching her the skill so I didn't have 18 years of picking up after her. Now we do it differently in each home I'm sure.

Let people own their chores. If the kids wont put dirty clothes in the hamper, then when the run out of clothes, let them find something with the sniff test. Especially when that favorite outfit in not clean enough to wear anymore.

Washing dishes, well, agree only to do the dishes that make it to the sink. If someone is guilty of leaving out dishes, then after you've done the ones in the sink, let the "guilty" wash their dishes.

I'm a firm believer in giving people ownership of their issue.

Finally, here is a great rule of thumb. If there is a chore, there are two questions about that chore.

1. How to do the chore?
2. Who will do the chore?

Between two people, any one person gets to answer only one question. So if you and your H decide who does the dishes, and he says you. You get to decide how they are done. If he doesn't like the rule about the dishes left out, then he can feel free to do the dishes as he sees fit.

Well, that's enough for now.

TB

Unfortunately, he never really does much around the house and minimally around the garage, basement and yard. For example, if he mows the lawn, he will only pickup dog poop on the part of the lawn he will mow. He might be organized by his bathroom sink but everything would be covered with dust. He'll start things and never finish them. He's not supportive with getting the kids to do what they need to do. It ramps right up into last chance yelling.

I just accessed flylady. I'm going to work on it. My sinks are soaking right now!

Here's a question for you: is the messy house a recent development?

If it is no worse than it ever was through your marriage, then it isn't a symptom of the current problems. I would guess, in that case, that either it's something that's always bothered him, and he is just now verbalizing it, or (more likely in my opinion) he is complaining about it because it helps justify his actions in his own mind.

BUT.... if the messy house is a recent thing, I would say it is almost certain that it's a symptom of the current turmoil in your marriage. Suddenly letting the house go when you never did before could very well be a sign of depression, for one thing. And going through an affair, depression is common.

Also - is he now helping less than he used to? With everything I've found out about my (now) X's trek down the road to becoming a WS, I would say that if I'd known what it meant, the house becoming messier could have been a first warning sign for me. Eventually, it got top where I gave up - things were wrong, and I didn't know what, but I was depressed, and it became very hard for me to bother with trying to clean the house. But long before I got to that point, I started feeling like I was fighting a losing battle, because he could mess things up faster than I could clean!

About the time he started looking outside our marriage (porn, ads, etc. - not sure when it went from looking to participating, but this part started when he started looking,) he got really bad about things around the house. He had always helped at least some, but he quit helping at all, got angry and resentful when I asked for help, things like that. Not only that, but he actually got worse - he could be standing right next to a garbage can, and would still throw his garbage on the counter or the floor or something.

Mainly, looking back, I can see that it was very reflective of the fact that he had written us off. He wasn't invested in the marriage anymore, so upkeep on our home was not only NOT a priority, but he actually got to the point where he just trashed the house and didn't care.

Of course, he would still complain periodically that it was a mess, and that he hated being there because of it. Sheesh! I think that's part of the reason he did make such a mess - it helped him justify things to himself.

Once he moved out, I still didn't really get things cleaned up immediately. Eventually, my mom came to visit and helped. Since then, I work on the house little by little all the time. I'm not always the neatest housekeeper, but I was shocked at how bad I had let it get when things were really bad with the marriage. Depression, combined with hopelessness because he would mess up any area I cleaned, sometimes within minutes of me cleaning.

This is actually an area where I'm surprised I haven't seen more people talking about this problem. To me, the state of the house was a BIG indicator of the state of our marriage. I can look back and see a direct correlation between the two.

I don't know how much that helps.... but I think it would help you a lot to figure out what's behind it first. If it was always this way, then you just may be one of the housekeeping-challenged <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> and getting tips on how to clean and organize would probably help. If it's a symptom of the marriage problems, though, probably it won't be fixed until the marriage is (or you hire a cleaning service! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

You can also check out Declutter Divas I am a moderator over there and we have a lot of fun...I dont go by this name though and no one knows who I am on that board except the MODS...You can get lots of support and we have a clean sweep eeach day to start everyon on the right foot.

Hmmmmm...I have always been a "bad" housekeeper. One of the first presents my SIL gave me was a sign saying BLESS THIS MESS. He's never said alot about our mess but never helped out either. The times I wanted to get a cleaning service, he was very vocal about that NOT happening. I do a lot of creative things and they tend to spread out. I've justified myself by saying we all have our gifts and housework is not one of mine. (Although I can organize a 2 week vacation for 10 people or a picnic for 100 easily. Go figure...)

Things have been worse because I've been depressed about the whole thing. He was gone for 9 weeks and the house got pretty bad. I had intended to really clean the house before he came back but he came back "early" and without warning. Soon after, I found out about the A and it's been down hill from there.

Interestingly enough, when he came out of his fog on Sunday, he started doing chores. He start working on our mice problem, wound his grandmother's clock, fed the cat. Is there hope if they do their chores?

Another thing...when he started complaining I told him these things. First of all, this is not a hotel. After 9 weeks in a very nice hotel, like WH was, with maid service, restaurant meals and laundry service, almost any house would suffer in comparison. I also said, this is a house where a family lives. Unlike OW, the children in this house do not go to daycare all day nor to a dad's house a lot of the time for partial custody. We all live here all the time. They don't just do homework and go to bed. We cook, we do projects, we have fun. It would sure be a lot easier to keep things clean if nobody was ever around!

It was me!

I'm the flybaby <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Here's the thing..flylady can help you accomplish your end. And I suggest that you do this first.

However, it sounds that in your house..like mine..you are meeting with disrespect from the other occupants headed up by DoD <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hausfrau..like any other *job* has a job description..and that may be something you two need to negotiate..because my Hs unchecked description is *everything, anytime*..no sane person would accept this role, and not I..the least among them.

What to do? Meet with him..expressly to discuss the house standards..what does clean mean? Is it washed dishes..tidy house..or further down the spectrum? Washed walls, polished furniture? If the standards are fairly low..you probably can manage most of it on your own [requiring only that people pick up after themselves..as is only a demonstration of respect for you, and good manners in general], however, if the standards are high..it may be more work than one person can accomplish, particularly if your efforts are being sabotaged.

If H wants a clean house..he needs clean habits himself. He needs to back you and demonstrate to the children how we treat Mom..and how we treat our things. Being conscious that, not unlike a careless spouse who wastes money that was hard earned..careless habits create an enormous workload, and set you up for failure.

My stance is this..I am willing to negotiate and come up with a POJA agreement on any household issue, but if H refuses then I must adopt a take no prisoners approach. If H refuses to be responsible for his things..anything out of place gets thrown in the trash..even his wallet. Think that sounds hard? Imagine the sweaty palms of doing something like that. There is NO WAY that will avoid conflict. Conflict is needed though. If the behavior is unacceptable and the implied or overt response is Too Bad..well, I don't accept that. If you aren't willing to work with me..get ready to work to replace your lost items. Get ready to replace dished I have thrown away because you left them in the computor room. Get ready to buy all new sandwich meat and condiments because I threw them all out when left on the counter.

You'll be buying a lot of clothes if you can't manage to throw them into the basket instead of on the floor. I don't think that your commander will be very understanding about you not having your uniform either. I'm not glossing over the fact that these are HARSH tactics..but left with no alternative..what can a person do short of leaving them..which is probably the next step.

Noodle

HC,

One of the complaints I heard from my H at the beginning of his 2nd A was about the messiness of our house. I work fulltime and do all the cooking/cleaning/laundry/shopping as well as care for our disabled DS and help DD with homework. I was so depressed and beaten down that the weekend H was away with OW having a good ole time, I was scrubbing the bathroom walls and scrubbing the fridge convinced that would buy his love back. I have since come to realize it was justification on his part and another reason to complain about me to OW. It truly was not an issue. Our house has been messier the past few months due to my trying to deal with the mess that both of our infidelities have caused. Hope this helps you.

Noodle -

This can be a good idea - depending on the personality you are dealing with.

Me - my now-X has a very defiant personality. I threatened similar to what you did. One of my big ones was not cleaning out the pockets of his pants before he put them in the wash. In the beginning, this meant money, among other things. I instituted one of my mom's rules - whatever I find in the wash, I keep. He then started making sure he got his money and anything else important out of his pants, and quit taking the tissues out of his pockets altogether. Claimed to have forgotten - but he never forgot to take out his money.....

Same thing with leaving things lying around the house. I threatened to start throwing out stuff that was just left out. He quit leaving things that were important to him, that he wanted to keep - but that's also about the time he quit using garbage cans, and just started throwing his trash wherever.

He had a tendency to "punish" me. Any time I had a complaint, he would act contrite, say he was a horrible person, and he didn't know how I put up with him.... and then would proceed to change the behavior to something worse.

I guess my point is.... if you're going to try something that is somewhat adversarial like this, you'd better make sure you know the personality you're dealing with.... I was evidently dealing with a defiant adolescent boy trapped in a middle-aged body!

Penguin..

P

Absolutely..and I hope that I adequately conveyed in my post that these tactics were specifically to bring about conflict, not to be the norm. In my situation..no conflict meant continued mistreatment. Dismissing me because he could dismiss me [or so he thought <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ]

My stance is this..refuse to negotiate with me..deal with MY solution until you are willing to negotiate with me..and I will keep upping the ante, until..in a sitch like yours..I'd probably leave. If he truly values me so little..what am I still doing here?

If it is a habit..we can work around it..with willingness comes resolution..but your happiness at my expense isn't going to be the MO, not today, not ever.

Noodle

[maybe if you had thrown the pants away instead of taking out the tissue? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> yes, I fight dirty]

I think my WH would go into "leave only footprints" mode. Like he's the invisible man. Probably close enough.

BTW: I am not doing ANY of his laundry. My sheets, the bathroom towels but no soxes, underwear, pants, shirts, etc of his. I'm making meals and he can eat them if he's home. I did make him a lunch for work this morning since I was making one for our son and he's been coming out of the fog. I think that's feeding the love bank too. Still holding the line on the laundry though. I think if we didn't have kids at home, I wouldn't make meals either.

One more clarification that seems important.

My tactics were sniper specific..not shotgun.

He was placing his actions into my domain and saying because it is in your domain, it isn't my problem.

This is essentially taking your dog out to poop in the neighbors yard.

By throwing things away I placed the issue in the domain of the action taker. He is responsible for earning money..if he would rather spend his hard earned money replacing items that could have easily been put away instead..that's his choice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

Look at the individual situation and what element of life does it fit into..you need to place the consequence on the person who is offending in a way that is meaningfull to them and appropriate to the situation at hand.

Noodle

My husband likes a clean house too...and while that is sometimes a struggle with kids, animals, work etc., I've found that both the routnines used by flylady and declutter divas....AS WELL AS the organizational techniques of other experts has really helped me to get clean and stay clean.

There are some very good ways of enforcing boundaries that don't require throwing away my family's possessions...as well as making it easier for them to comply with the things necessary to keep the house clean and functioning well by creating zones and convenience that creates success. For instance, I was tired of the pile of shoes by the back door. I tripped more than once with arms full of groceries and was tired of cleaning the floor. For years, I fought with my family to pick up their shoes. Then, I installed a shoe shelf right by the back door...and voila...no more fights, and no more shoes. Same thing with my husband's wallet, keys and change. I complained for years because he dropped it all on the telephone desk in the kitchen which just seemed to "attract" more junk and clutter....then...I just cleared out the nearest drawer and made it his. He empties his pockets and wallet, change, phone, blackberry etc right into that drawer now. Things like ironing, crafts, sewing, homework, giftwrap, legos, playstation, tools, etc...need a "zone" (drawer, box, shelf, closet, cabinet) that houses those things and has everything needed to complete those jobs....as well as...a place for uncompleted jobs or work in progress. That's an organizational problem...not a cleaning problem. When things have a place to go...cleaning is cut more than half!

To get to that point requires decluttering, organization and good routines. Flylady is a great place to start...but when you perfect those routines...try Julie Morgenstern's "Organizing from the Inside Out" to make your house work for you instead of having your house "fight" you.

I refuse to be the "heavy" or the gestapo nag so that this house is clean...I work too hard.... and boundaries are about me...and what is okay with me. Threatening to throw things away is not a boundary...it's a punishment/ultimatim...not the same thing at all.

So, how do you enforce a good boundary about the house? Well, you can refuse to do things that are not about you. TV and computers are priviledges for children who have done their homework and cleaned their rooms. I have walked into my house and seen what my family has done and said..."family, oops....I was planning on cooking a nice spagetti just now, but I'm not feeling very motivated to do that. I'm turning around and going back out and eating a nice dinner somewhere. Give me a call on my cell when y'all have fixed this mess and I'll come home. seeya" If things don't make it into the hamper, I just don't "see" them and they don't get washed (sorry you wanted to wear those black pants...oops, nope I don't think your nice red sweater is clean...oops)....instead, they end up in a nice neat pile on the part of the bed that whoever left them out sleeps on. I don't "act" in a way to punish....I simply don't "act" at all by doing it FOR them and complaining that they didn't do it. Even if I couldn't afford to replace those items that might be thrown out....I think there are easier ways and less expensive (emotionally and financially) to exact change. I'm not a doormat, but I'm not a nag either...it's not my problem...I do my part! I cook wonderful meals, but not if there are dishes in my sink. Even the seven year old doesn't get a "pass"...I just work too damn hard not to get help, respect and appreciation. But I really do look for ways to help my family be successful...by finding solutions to chronic problem areas that are convenient to use and by teaching them that I'm not the maid. Of all the wonderful things that I do for my family....cleaning house is the LEAST rewarding, least appreciated and most time consuming.

Good Luck with your flylady stuff....I think the routines there are absolutely essential to begin with!

Hugs!!

Oh my goodness! This is on my WH must change before any chances of working on R list!! I agree with that looking back, prior to EA/PA H always helped with the house. He took pride in it! We always had friends and family over. But then things started slipping, I was constently beating myself up with it! I work full time straight afternoons, so when I would get home at 12:30, It would take me an hour to work my way to the bed room! Then in the mornings, cleaning before I left again. He didn't enforce any cleaning rules - with 3 boys it was awful! So his big thing now that I have moved out is he is "surprised" at how clean my house is! The boys know that I can enforce the rules here, in my home. His place is a disaster! I took one of the boys over and had to walk into the living room to speak to him, and I was shocked! His reaction? I'm going to clean tomorrow...
I think this was a "sign" clean house was important to us then when our marriage was slipping, the "house" went slipping as well...

What an interesting and informative topic!

One of the two main reasons my now XH gave for getting involved with OW was that the house was always a mess, or in his words, "A f-ing pigsty!". (The other reason, btw, was that MY kids didn't respect him which struck me as odd because he is their biological father. Not like he walked into some step-family here!)

Anyway, I admit that housecleaning is not my strong suit. I also thing the more I study up on my daughter's ADHD, that I share a lot of the tendancies. It's very difficult for me to get organized or to stay focused on a task.

However, my house was far messier when the kids were little. I have many photos and videotapes to prove it. But there are always dishes on the breakfast bar, clothes laying around on the bathroom floors, the kids rooms were both disastes, and our room tended to take the overflow.

Okay, following around my ADHD daughter is impossible. I can't clean as fast as she can mess. Seriously, the only way I could get the whole house clean at once was to take a Friday off as vacation and then spend the entire day cleaning while the kids were at school.

Now that my daughter only goes to school until noon daily, it's basically hopeless. I leave for work with a clean counter, and when I come home from work, every dish I own is dirty and sitting back on it.

Based on the condition I've seen XH/OW's apartment in when I've had to drop a couple things off, I tend to believe that while XH was bothered by the state of the house, it wasn't the reason he left. She's a stay-at-home and their place is no better.

But you're right, you have to have help to keep it clean, especially if you work outside the home. Between my XH leaving his dishes everywhere, his underwear and wet towel on the bathroom floor after showering, and my kids basically leaving trails of clothing and dishes everywhere, it's hard to stay on top of things.

Star*fish, I think I need you to come live in my house for a week or so and explain "boundaries" to my daughter. I ask her to help--she yells at me. She wears her clothes until they'll practically stand up on their own, and then if I don't wash them--she yells at me some more. And although she does virtually nothing around the house besides create a path of destruction--she yells at me some more because I won't give her money like all the other parents do their kids.

It is very disheartening. I'd love to have a clean house. I just can't seem to get it there, and anymore I've sort of given up trying. I don't have the energy. I've gone to trying to just create a space...a room, or closet, that is only mine, where I can get away from the mess if I'm lacking the energy to clean it that night.

But I'm going to check out the websites mentioned.

And penguin, based on your comment, I believe were must have been married to the same guy--twin brothers at least!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was evidently dealing with a defiant adolescent boy trapped in a middle-aged body!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LL