delete your last name from your post

LOL....My last name is my handle....I did not think it would matter..... Should I change my handle as well?

It matters to some, not others.

Whatever you think.

How are you today?

Whats the big thing in your thoughts this morning? Or, afternoon for you already.

SS

I'm not really sure. Today ww approached me and gave me a kiss, which leads me to think she is trying to make amends at some level to keep my love from vanishing over the horizon.

After everything that Happened Friday and then my talk with her Saturday night and the whole sf thing as well. I feel at peace. I'm a little sad today because it worries me that something so strong can be beaten from a person, I refer to the Love I had for my ww. I know there is some small amount left and even today it seems to be getting smaller.

It's amazing how an A can do this much damage to a M and to a family.

My M to ww was done out of love on my part, she never was in love with me. She told me she loved me and that she thought we would make a cute family and she loved the way I was with her Daughter ( I adopted D and gave her my name ).

Now that I look back I sometimes wonder if her first A with Om is what has made the last ten yrs so hard for me. We never really talked about the issues of it, I never asked her why or anything. I just assumed that he was a person she was crazy about and there relationship had just ended a six months before we were M, so I took it as one of those last fling things. She never knew that I had knowledge of this A until almost three yrs later when I sat down with her and told her everything I new, it made her cry and she told me that she was sorry. Over the course of many yrs I threw her A up in her face anytime I could and then eventually a few yrs back I stopped and started trusting her again.

I never made WW feel like an equal in this M, I never supported her in any thing that she found interesting. I never really helped with the house or the kids. I have always been kind of a sad person since her first A.

Now I jump to the present and I wonder if I could have done something to prevent this A. Maybe when I first found out I should have dealt with it instead of ignoring it and thinking she would end it on her own.


Her A started in may and I found out at the end of May. I never confronted her about the A until July and she told me it was some guy she met at the local store, Even then I knew it was the ex from her past and from the first A.

I feel like a fool at times. I try to smile and find things to occupy my time but I am always drawn back to the present. I do enjoy the fact that I was able to set a very serious boundry with her,

I still have not exposed her A to all of her family. In a way because I don't think it would do much good. The past several months of her A she has been slowly turning them all against me. If we had a fight about A she would make sure they new I was being a jerk and she would tell them it was because of something else.

Her sister and Aunt are the only ones that know everything and they try to keep it to themselves because they don't want to rock the boat.

So far today has been ok, I found ww wedding ring and set it on the table and told her she should put it in her ring box if she does not plan on wearing it anymore. She took it off and threw it Friday night.

Thats another thing that has really bothered me, She has told me that her ring means nothing to her anymore and has not for a very long time. I know a lot of you tell me the fog will wear off and she may stay or she may leave and that during this time I need to fill her love bank...How do I fill mine enough to keep going on like this, knowing I have so very little love for her right now.

I know my posts are usually so long but so are my thoughts and feelings on this.

I feel I'm still in Plan A with her having nc with OM and if she continues with the lies I will have to move to PLan B just to protect myself from those lies. This is the boundry I have set with her. I told her that if I ask her to move out it is not to end the M but to let her know there is a price to pay for these lies, I told her I rather her tell me something like " can I answer that question at a later time" then to look at me and lie or refuse to tell me the truth.


Can and does the soul heal from this. She tells me it is very hard for her to show me any emotion or feelings because of how she feels about me and how she feels about OM.

She tells me that her A was more of an EA because she enjoyed his hugs and just talking to him and the SF was more for him and it did not bother her because she enjoyed pleasing him.

Sometime's I go to touch her and I feel like his hands have already been there and I feel so sick.

I go to hug her and wonder if his hugs mean more then mine

When we have SF I wonder if the little sounds she makes for me are the same sounds he has heard.

It's so gut retching at times, does this feeling pass once you are over the withdrawal and into recovery?

I don't have much time, and I hope I don't create more questions than I answer, but lets see how far we can get.

I'm not really sure. Today ww approached me and gave me a kiss, which leads me to think she is trying to make amends at some level to keep my love from vanishing over the horizon.

Gray says she loves you, but isn't ready to work on things yet. I agree.

I really recommend you read "love busters" Hoping he sends it to you right away. Much of what I have to say will be shorter, and easier after you read it.

Now, you understand the love bank concept. Meeting needs fills the bank, but Love busting drains it. You two have a cycle of doing things that drain each others bank. This cycle needs to be broken, and you are the only one that has enough knowledge to do that. You know from the lasts few days that it will be difficult.


After everything that Happened Friday and then my talk with her Saturday night and the whole sf thing as well. I feel at peace. I'm a little sad today because it worries me that something so strong can be beaten from a person, I refer to the Love I had for my ww. I know there is some small amount left and even today it seems to be getting smaller.

Your bank can grow from two things
1. her meeting your needs, and not Love busting. Lies, anger, and other things destroy your love for her. (I am talking about things SHE does to Love Bust.)
2. You doing things for her. This is very short term, but if you do some things for her, you will feel renewed love for a while.
What love, we serve, and what we serve, we love. If you serve her, you will love her. If it goes too long without her doing the same for you, it will turn to resentment down the road. That's the cycle of the giver, and the taker.


It's amazing how an A can do this much damage to a M and to a family.

NO way to put it into words, is there. Can't even come close.


My M to ww was done out of love on my part, she never was in love with me. She told me she loved me and that she thought we would make a cute family and she loved the way I was with her Daughter ( I adopted D and gave her my name ).


I don't believe she was never in love with you. I think the signs are she was seeking relief - a make believe world where everything was wonderul. I think she found that it doesnt' exist.

I don't have time to go into this in detail now. Believe what she does, not what she says. Notice she is WITH YOU NOW. This looks like withdrawl, she doesn't have it all together, but she is there with you. That counts for a lot.

Now that I look back I sometimes wonder if her first A with Om is what has made the last ten yrs so hard for me. We never really talked about the issues of it, I never asked her why or anything. I just assumed that he was a person she was crazy about and there relationship had just ended a six months before we were M, so I took it as one of those last fling things. She never knew that I had knowledge of this A until almost three yrs later when I sat down with her and told her everything I new, it made her cry and she told me that she was sorry. Over the course of many yrs I threw her A up in her face anytime I could and then eventually a few yrs back I stopped and started trusting her again.

Again, "Love Busters" will explain a lot of things. You are a smart man, once you see it in black and white, I think you will be able to eliminate some Love busters you have been using, and probably don't realize. That was my problem, Angry outbursts, disrespectful judgements (who wants to live with a critic,) and so on.

What she is looking for is safety. She wants a place where she can work out her troubles (even fix her mistakes) in love and safety. Safety means emotional safety.


I never made WW feel like an equal in this M, I never supported her in any thing that she found interesting. I never really helped with the house or the kids. I have always been kind of a sad person since her first A.

Remember, you are making this into a partnership. I believe it's not our mistakes that define us, but how we deal with them. She wants a partner. Not a silent partner, or a limited partner, but a full partner. Many men come home from work, and instead of being a partner, they do whatever they want. Over time, the wife comes to resent being married.

She wants and needs help. Someone that sees her as a best friend (fun dates) a companion (share her feelings without fear of anger, or being judged) and a partner - Partners help each other until all the work is done, one doesn't watch TV while the other does it all.


Now I jump to the present and I wonder if I could have done something to prevent this A. Maybe when I first found out I should have dealt with it instead of ignoring it and thinking she would end it on her own.

I don't know the details, but if you meet her needs, and don't LB, I think you can have the marriage you dream of. I really do.


I feel like a fool at times. I try to smile and find things to occupy my time but I am always drawn back to the present. I do enjoy the fact that I was able to set a very serious boundry with her,

Boundaries are only a part of this. I think that was good, but remember do do all things with respect, treating her as you want to be treated, even if she won't do it back at first. Someone has to start, someone has to break the cycle.


I still have not exposed her A to all of her family. In a way because I don't think it would do much good. The past several months of her A she has been slowly turning them all against me. If we had a fight about A she would make sure they new I was being a jerk and she would tell them it was because of something else.

You expose to end the A. If it is over, you don't need to tell anyone else.

I wish you had exposed then, but it's probalby best left alone now. I think you can salvage this from where you are anyway.


So far today has been ok, I found ww wedding ring and set it on the table and told her she should put it in her ring box if she does not plan on wearing it anymore. She took it off and threw it Friday night.

I have more, but I think you know what is needed. Not saying it will be easy, it won't be.


Thats another thing that has really bothered me, She has told me that her ring means nothing to her anymore and has not for a very long time. I know a lot of you tell me the fog will wear off and she may stay or she may leave and that during this time I need to fill her love bank...How do I fill mine enough to keep going on like this, knowing I have so very little love for her right now.


This is the difficult fact of recovery. Your bank is empty. She is in withdrawl.
If you can't reach deep down, and find the strength to make this work, it won't work. It will most likely take everything you have got, plus a little.

You can ask her for help. You have probably read the Four rules for recovery by now.

Tell her flat out you are having a hard time. Figure out what you need most, and ask for her help with that.

"I am having a hard time right now. It would really help me if you would go on a date with me Friday night.

It would really help me if we could just sit and talk (about non R stuff) tonight. No strings attached.

It would really help if ............"

You fill in the blanks. You know what you need.


I know my posts are usually so long but so are my thoughts and feelings on this.

Long is good. More informatinon helps us know what to say.


I feel I'm still in Plan A with her having nc with OM and if she continues with the lies I will have to move to PLan B just to protect myself from those lies. This is the boundry I have set with her. I told her that if I ask her to move out it is not to end the M but to let her know there is a price to pay for these lies, I told her I rather her tell me something like " can I answer that question at a later time" then to look at me and lie or refuse to tell me the truth.


Can and does the soul heal from this. She tells me it is very hard for her to show me any emotion or feelings because of how she feels about me and how she feels about OM.

My opinion is this is mostly because of Love Busters. I would guess she is afraid of you. This is emotional - you can't love someone that you fear.

She tells me that her A was more of an EA because she enjoyed his hugs and just talking to him and the SF was more for him and it did not bother her because she enjoyed pleasing him.

Most of the Women who are WS's say this same thing. I really believe if you create a place of safety for her, (I think Harley calls it care, and protection) and if you become her partner, she will come to love you with all her heart.


Sometime's I go to touch her and I feel like his hands have already been there and I feel so sick.

Time - this one takes time. Up to 18 months, but it gets better as you go along.

I go to hug her and wonder if his hugs mean more then mine

Remember, she is there, with you. She has a choice, and she is with YOU.

When we have SF I wonder if the little sounds she makes for me are the same sounds he has heard.

That's why we say - you can go if you want. Really, you are free. You have choices.

It's so gut retching at times, does this feeling pass once you are over the withdrawal and into recovery?


Yes, but it takes time as discussed.

I don't have time to find the link, but if you can find a post by TMCM, and check out the notable posts link, you will find lots about plans A, and B, and also you will find some success stories. Tell me what you think.

SS

I have so much to deal with and I think today I really need to dig down deep to find that small reserve of love....

It may be that the biggest battle you fight will be in your own mind. If you can win that one, it may very well be that the other one will go just fine.

I don't mean to discount your feelings. I hope you don't get that from what I say. It's just that your choices are before you - they are pretty plain. We help all we can, but you are the one that makes it work.

I still think you can.

SS

Still Seeking,

Even with all of the tools at my disposal I feel like her words about not loving me and wanting out of the M are her real feeling's. How can I tell if they are Fog talk or real?


I care about her so much and yet I don't know how to get through the wall of ice she has set in front of her heart.

I try to do things to make it better for her but she just does not open up to me in the emotional area.

I know it takes time and I know June 05 is still far off, but tonight she mentioned maybe moving to her mom's sooner, like after x-mas?

I feel so panicky....

<Bump>

Even with all of the tools at my disposal I feel like her words about not loving me and wanting out of the M are her real feeling's. How can I tell if they are Fog talk or real?

You work, and you wait.
There is no other way.


I care about her so much and yet I don't know how to get through the wall of ice she has set in front of her heart.

Everyone wants it to happen now, to feel magic, to be instant. It doesn't work that way. You work your plan, that develops faith in your self. That faith is seen by your spouse. They begin to believe. Recovery begins. Slow, faltering steps become more sure.

If you look around, you see it happening. That's what this board is all about. Many that make it work never come back, you don't see all the success stories. I have seen them, I know it can work, often does.

I try to do things to make it better for her but she just does not open up to me in the emotional area.

If you push for it to happen NOW, it will make it go slower. She feels what she feels. Her feelings will change with time and effort. DON'T PUSH.

I know it takes time and I know June 05 is still far off, but tonight she mentioned maybe moving to her mom's sooner, like after x-mas?

I feel so panicky....

Nothing you SAY will change that. It is action over time. What can you do if she goes to her moms? Really, what can you do?

She needs safety, care, and protection.

Healing takes time. If she had been in the hospital, recovering from a major accident, how would you talkt to her.

Would you say: "I need to know when you are coming home. I need to know if you are going to be well next week. I want some kind of sign you are going to make it."

Or - would you say something like:

"I love you, I'll help you. I know this has been hard, but right now, you need love and support. I can handle it until you are ready to come home."

Again, this is not exactly the same, and it is her fault in a lot of ways, but the principal is the same as far as what she needs to recover.

Problem is that you are hurt too. However, one of you has to do this, and it won't be her.

I wish I could help more. I wish all of us could help more.

SS

Still Seeking,

Your words are what give me hope, Between you and Grey Cloud and standing Together there is not much I can't handle when it comes to the WW.

Last night we ended up having a pretty good night. I sat down with her at the end of the night and said a prayer asking God to forgive her for what she has done, She got really chocked up over it.

She cried a lot last night and told me that she will not lie to me anymore andif she does not feel comfy telling the truth she will ask for a day to think. I agreed with her that would be fine as long as she spoke the truth.

She is still thinking of going out to her mom's to live after x-mas and I told her that I would respect whatever she decided, She smiled and told me thank you.

We had some SF and then we went to bed and she has been reading SAA and something she read must have triggered something because she asked if she started posting would the people on here help her. I told her that I don't think it would hurt.

She held me all night and when I got up for work she woke up and told me to have a good day, I asked her for a kiss and told her only if she felt like it, she told me yes because she does not want to see my love bank go in the red. I thought it was cute.

I know don't believe to much in this stage of the game. She is now on day 21 today of nc. My goal is not to mention Om or the A or the R for the next couple day's and just be there for her when she wants to talk.

GC: By any chance did you send me that book yet?

Michael - I wasn't sure if you had either of these, so I sent both HNHN and LB.

GC

Michael - your W should post here. She should be prepared for the possibility of stern responses, but she can get lots of help from both BS and FWWs.

GC

Wow, what a weekend.

I am busy at work (in retail) and won't promise how often I will be around the next few weeks, but, will come by as often as I can.

You can do things daily to show her care and protection.

Don't ask her about OM, or recovery.

You can wait until she is ready, and then do it all at once. Some here have made a list of questions, given it to their spouse in advance, and agreed on the day to go through it. Once that was done, they left it alone. I am not telling you what to do, but giving ideas. You CAN leave it till later, and still cover it.

Remember, she doesn't know what she wants, so don't ask her that either. If you do your part, it will click inside of her one day, and she will realize she wants to stay. She will tell you when that happens. You will get signs too.

You don't need to think that you will have to do everything for her all the time either. Don't get tired and poop out on us. Once true recovery begins, you can work out on a day to day basis who does what (as far as house work, kids etc. It will make her happy, because you will be helping some, and you didn't used to do that.

Other things:
You should have in mind what you will do on your plan today. Keep in mind, for our purposes right now, this is a self improvement plan for YOU. No matter what, you get to keep any improvements you make.

Lets think about some things.

When you see her tomight -
You can think....I don't want to spend time with the person that caused me so much pain.
Or,
You can think........She is still here, I love her, I am glad to see her. She isn't with OM, she isn't with her mom, she is with me.

So, when you greet her, you can think wich one fits best, and if you really are glad to see her, tell her "I am so glad to see you, It makes me happy to be with you."
Use your own words, the way you would say it, my words are just examples.

Don't make it up, only say things like that if you mean it. Just think on it some, and make up your mind which it is. If you are glad to see her, put some emotion into it. She will feel it if you are genuine.

When you help around the house, you can be angry that you have to work, or you can be thankful you have a home to help clean. You can be thankful you have a wife to help.

It's perspective -
She will be able to tell if you help because you "HAVE TO", but, if you can find reasons to be thankful about it, she will feel your love.

The only reason I can think of that she would want to leave, it so she can feel safe. Get away from the preasure. Your home should be a safe haven for her to come home to. The place she can relax, unwind, and be safe and warm. This doesn't mean you do all the work, and she does none. It means you both agree on how things will be, and then you always do your part. It means she won't fear having a discussion with you when she is tired, and needs to rest.

When you go out, who gets the sitter?

What a treat it would be for her, if you arranged a date where all she had to do was get her coat. Supprise her - tell her about the date times, and date, but not what you are doing. Have everything ready, the sitter, and everything. If you don't have much money, trade sitting with a friend that has kids your childrens ages, and go to an art musem, or even to the library and sit and read your favorite magazines. Away from preasure, no work for her. THIS DOES NOT HAVE TO BE EXPENSIVE.
Think of things she likes to do.

My W and I trade off weekends. She does the date one week, I do it the next. This is a direct result of me finding MB, and it has done a lot for our marriage.

Now, what are you doing today to run your plan?

SS

Still seeking,

Well today when she got home I had dinner started and coffee ready to go, She made the comment that she loves coming home and dinner being done or close to ready. I'm no great cook..Tonight it was Cheeseburgs and fries. I would love to learn how to cook so that I could enjoy the process.

Working the Plan:

I'm letting her take a nap on the couch while I clean the kitchen and help the kids with homework and I will give my youngest his bath and do his reaing with him while she unwinds and rests.

I am not going to mention Om or R or her staying or going.

I'm going to just fill her space with kindness.


Still Seeking: You mention your in retail, Same here I'm a Store Manager for a Big Box retailer and this time of yr i'm putting in 10 - 12 hr days. I took most of last week off after Black Friday to get my strength back, My District Manager was very understanding once I approached him on the subject, Plus I was Doctor ordered. I was just getting so burned out from the whole A thing and Work and kids and CPs and the back and forth beatings from WW and the lies. My soul had taken a beaten it has never felt before and I hope never will again after this is all done.

Funds are tight right now because of my returning back to work after being out of work for almost 3 months.


I will think about the things you posted above and see what else I can do for her that will help fill that love bank and put some of that old smile on her face again for me.

She did tell me she misses the way I used to make her laugh with my jokes and my kid at heart sense of humour. Thank you for you support.



Grey Cloud,
I do not have any of those books and I can't thank you enough. How are things going with you? I don't hear from you as much anymore and that worries me.

Michael, thank you for thinking of me. I'm okay.

GC

M,

I don't have allot to offer and it seems your getting quite the helping hands from the fellas here.

I noticed that your wife like dinner and you want to know how to cook. There is a great site called saving dinner. It gives you a week of recipes along with the shopping lists broken out by group...i.e., dairy, meats, canned goods, vegetables, etc.

It has a really good variety of meals. Some look crazy on paper but taste pretty good. I think the first week is free but its only $30 for the whole year.

My wife and I enjoyed the meals together and often times prepared them together too. If you want I think I still have the soft copies of mine I can email to you.

I know that this is rough but you can perservere through this. You're gonna be better regardless of the outcome. Keep your head up.

God Bless

Doug

BTW....email is doug_lisa2003@yahoo.com

Gc: You have been so kind and helpful to me during my time of need and I feel I never really asked about you enough. I was so caught up in my own termoil that it never accored to me that you were here for the same reason's as me.. Us Army guy's are slow takes a few close rounds over the head to make us realize we are being shot at...LOL

I will say a prayer for you tonight..


D_Rose:

I would love those soft copies and you canb email me at schluter@rochester.rr.com and thank you for your kind words. I just want to be a better Husband, Father and all around good Guy.

You sound lots better, and Gray, and D_rose are good help. If you have never read Dougs story, it was really bad, his W actually left for a while. Now they are doing really good.

Give it a couple of weeks like it is, then lets see how both of you are feeling about it.

If you get burnt out, back off some on the work you are doing, but COMMUNICATE TO HER ABOUT IT.
"Hi hon, I feel so tired today, I think I am going to do peanut butter sandwiches tonight, and the house is a mess. Please forgive me, I'll do better tomorrow."

You do sound much better, I am glad.

I am in a small town, single store with web site operation. Camping eqipment. Long hours for us too, I am mostly back end, don't work the floor much, but you know how it goes - everyone has a question about something. Often things don't come in on time, and I never ever been "Caught up" on my work. However, I have a job - so I am happy.

SS

<small>[ December 13, 2004, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

I'm truly blessed to have so many on here that care about my M and how much I want to save it.

God Bless all of you


Psalm 13 (Verse 1 thru 6)


How long, O Lord? Will you forget me
Forever?
How long will you hide your face from me?

How long must I wrestle with my Thoughts
And every day have sorrow in my
Heart?
How long will my enemy triumph
Over me?

Look on me and answer, O Lord my
God?
Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death;
My enemy will say, “I have overcome him,”
And my foes will rejoice when I fall.

But I trust in your unfailing love;
My heart rejoices in your salvation.

I will sing to the Lord,
For he has been good to me.