Bear, not being nosey, just trying to understand your situation, but what stops your WW from moving in with the OM? How does his availability, or lack thereof, affect any consequences for continued C from either you or your wife's parents?

Specifically, why isn't she with him if he is so wonderful? How can you use the fact that she is not already with him?

***Anyway, I think that's why you get so frustrated. Because you'd like BSs to come into this with a level of self-esteem and self-worth that you recognize. Sadly, sometimes that just isn't the case. If the M before the A was controlling or abusive or manipulative--or if the WS had an addiciton or a mental illness or personality disorder, then a lot of BS self-esteem can be eroded. The "Plans" kind of fly out the window in those instances.***

Very good point. Affairs are a very real form of emotional abuse, and an abused spouse who tries and tries and tries to deal with this over months or years can easily become so worn down that their own self-respect dwindles down to practically nothing -- before they even realize it.

Then, when the affair comes to light and people indignantly say, "Why don't you just throw WS out?" or "Why don't you at least go to Plan B?" and get angry if you can't/don't, the BS tries to make them understand that they are just trying to get themselves out of bed each day. Trying to stand up to a bullying WS who has been controlling the situation for a good long time isn't going to happen right away.

It's somewhat like expecting a veteran with PTSD to just stop whining, go back in there and face the gunfire. It may happen eventually, but much work has to be done first.

Maybe others could comment on this.

Mulan

BDGD- OM is single mid 20's, lives w/ ccouple guys in a house, in basement. No he is not that great and WW knows this. She would never "move in" with him. Secondly, there is no way she would take our son into that environment. She'd be disowned and lose everything for a move like that. I am not threatened by OM stealing WW. He would never allow her to move in anyways. He doesn't want a relationship. I, fortunately/unfortunately know OM. He's a typical scum just in it for a piece of a**.

Honestly speaking, WW doesn't want to give up her life or me. She expects me to sit on the side and wait for her to come around. Posed this ? to her. If WW was to catch me w/OW tonite, tmrw, or next month, what would she do? Answer: divorce, Why: Because I betrayed her. Go figure, I guess only one of us is allowed to cheat. She is being a selfish, self-centered brat who dipped her toes in the water and got sucked all the way in. Now she is looking for a way out. Whether this costs her the M or not, she is not going to have future with OM.

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Bear04 ]</small>

Your discussion with your WW sounds like one my H and I had last weekend. Her response was similar to mine, and I think, a good sign for you. ENs, right? Isn't security right up there for women? Isn't that something you are currently supplying in spades right now during Plan A? Obviously, the OM isn't. Her response shows that she still has a strong attachment to you and that she has higher expectations for you than she does for herself (maybe that's related to self-esteem issues). Get over the anger ringing in your ears and you'll hear that you still have the capacity to hurt her (after all, she didn't say she doesn't care one way or the other). Of course, you don't want to hurt her that way, that would end your marriage.

The thing is, she knows what you provide and how valuable it is, and she knows the OM can't and won't provide it. Right now, you are stuck for consequences when she breaches NC. And really, do you want her back (and your son) because she has no other place to go or because she chooses to return? You're getting frustrated because you know you can't boot her out. Maybe that is a good thing - maybe that will be a stronger impetus to change for the better. What the others said about Plan A being a place and person the WS wants to come home to is right. It works, I can attest to that.

You sound an awful like lot my H when it comes to EN. He felt like leftovers and an ABM after the kids came, I thought he looked at me as a nanny and housekeeper, and so a vicious cycle started. Try to identify what the loser, sorry, OM provides and make sure you repeatedly and subtley provide that to your W. Of course she is going to be suspicious so of course she is going to initially reject your attempts to meet her needs. But everything becomes less suspicious with repetition, right? I liked what someone else said here about taming a wild animal.

Yes, OM is loser, you are right about that. I don't really have anger over the A anymore. It makes me sick to think about it. My anger has turned into disappointment and frustration. If it gets to indifference, then there is trouble.

Yes, I provide security. OM provided sex, excitement, that "new" feeling. How do I know this. I have been called boring, no fun, don't want to do anything, we never "do it" anymore, etc.

What I don't get is how she continues to reject me. She told me she doesn't feel like she is worthy. Also wonders why I don't just divorce her. The things she has been saying lately are, she is afraid of me and that I am going to hold this over her head forever, I am repulsive. Has also said, "don't you think I C OM because maybe I don't want it to work out."

So I am doing all I can to enforce boundary? I don't know if it is enough. Change for the better? I am beginning to wonder if this is a meeting needs issue or a boundary issue. I am starting to believe that I met many needs (just not the right ones, right?), but boundaries were not defined. It should have never been ok for WW to go out on town w/single friends w/the frequency she was. She started to run around and act like them. I should have went plan B or sought MC when that all started and nipped it there.

I just reread this thread and Lemonman and CJ in their initial posts seem to have got it right (IMHO). Your boundaries for your WW are stellar given your situation but you also have to remember that no one can enforce such boundaries over the long term - even chastity belts in the middle ages just provided a false sense of security. Anyhow, who wants to be a jailor? So you're right, it is an ENs issue.

Don't take her rejection of you to heart so much. Please remember that her psyche has been ripped in two. She has to reconcile her strong destructive addictive needs with her own sense of self worth. She cannot turn that confusion and anger inwards otherwise she would see herself to be completely unworthy. So what does she do? She lashes out at you. Please remember, she is angry at herself, not you. She knows what she is saying is BS but she has to say it. Bear, believe me, she is like a trapped animal chewing off its leg. I just went through this. Please remember, she feels safe telling you really horrible things. Use that security to bring her closer.

You can't change the past but you can be there for her now. Be her friend. Work your way in. Let her see you happy with your son. Keep offering her to join you for dinner when your son is with you. Expand the invitations to going to the park, outside, all the fun stuff we do with kids. Keep giving her those looks, those words that make our feminine hearts flutter. Replace that stale feeling with the new. Maybe with time you could suggest a movie (at first with your son), then alone. In short, keep reminding her that you can more completely fill her needs than the OM.

My guess is she already knows that.

BDGD- Everything you say in that last posty is true. Especially the trapped animal part. I see her pain, her disgust, the way she can't look me or anyone else she cares about in the eye. Also, I never thought of the lashing out at me that way. You're right, she feels secure saying all those nasty things to me because she knows I love her. Did that just make sense? It still isn't right. I get the rejection part and can deal with it. So, all these things being true, then why the phone calls to OM? I know the answers, I think, w/d issues, cakeeating, etc. I only wish she would realize that by her actions, she is driving me away. And yes, I have told her that. Too much longer, and I won't want to be there when she is ready to reconcile.

I'd pretty much say this thread is worked through unless anyone else has any ideas on how to negotiate NC in plan A. Actions have consequences, i have outlined the consequences I have employed.

BDGD- I would still like to here from you to help me translate my WW talk/actions.

Update: Last night as I left her P's house, son gave me about 10 kisses and hug sessions, wouldn't let me out the door. After, I had closed it and was in the garage I could hear him crying, screaming for me not to go, trying to open the door with his 2yr old little hands. I stood in garage for a minute, tears. When it became clear that WW wasn't getting off her [censored] in the other room to come get him I went back inside. Gave him more hugs and kisses. Brought him back in house to WW and left to him crying asking daddy not to go. BTW, all this in front of MIL, what she must think of her daughter. This breaks my f'ing heart. At that moment it was hate for WW for what she was doing to him. Just come home. If she is so selfish that she thinks this sitch is OK, I don't want to be married to a woman like that. She is a good person, doing a bad thing. I hope she felt something there. If she didn't, she is not human. I'll say this, after that I didn't miss her last night.