I have read in the harley books that you are suppose to put your spouse's needs ahead of your kids and yourself (okay not their exact words- but lets go with it). Can someone please explain how one goes about doing that? and why?

I am also waiting with baited (sp??) breath on this one.

I can't imagine!!! My son comes before anyone!!!!!! He is #1 to me and always will be.

That is what I have read. Also my H gets jealous when I spend time with our kids. He says I treat them better then him, and that he feels less important to me. trying to balance it all. Also trying to understand why the Harley's would write this. I can see from a point that a happy marriage and couple makes for a happy family- however how do I achieve that?

I'll chime in on this one.

Many of you know my story by now and I was a "victim", if you will, of a wife who placed her children before her husband.

To be honest, I was able to deal with it because my kids are priority and their needs in relation to their mother's nurturing was very important to me.

However, when a wife places her children's needs ahead of her husband's AT ALL COSTS, eventually you will experience a breakdown in communication and both will grow resentful of one another.

One example: My wife felt I had the attitude of being the king of my household. Well, I am the man and the father. The least I can expect is some respect from my family. My wife did not think I was worthy of that. So, the kids and their needs and feeling ALWAYS were considered first. Regardless.

Example: Wife's sister brought home a kitten. Of course, it was cute as hell and my kids loved it. I felt my SIL should have consulted with us before bringing it to the house because she knew we would have difficulty saying no to keeping it. So I lost that one. Turned out, I was deathly allergic to it. I had to purchase $400 worth of air cleaners just to breathe in my own house!!!

Sure I grew resentful. What hard working, responsible man wouldn't? I can eat a lot of crap, but even I need some attention and respect once in a while.

So, if spouses make it a priority to service the needs of each other first, then both will be more effective towards the children's needs.

When one spouse is resentful of the other because of neglect, it's a losing situation for all.

Well *my* interpretation of this is that if your kids are wanting you to watch a TV show with them and your H wants a backrub - your H wins out.

Likewise your children won't suffer (in fact they'll benefit) by hearing you say "No, you can't stay up late and watch X tonight, Daddy and I are going to light some candles and listen to music."

Kids have to see their parents putting each others' needs first; this teaches them, by example, how to be a spouse when they grow up.

Another reason for putting the M first is that your kids are up and gone in under two decades. You *want* them to learn to become independent of you. Your spouse, on the other hand, is someone you plan to spend many decades with - perhaps six or more.

Now obviously you have to temper "my spouse comes first" with a little common sense. Children have to be fed, clothed, bathed, tucked in bed, hugged... they have legitimate needs, and they shouldn't be ignored! Also children simply aren't capable of doing everything for themselves so some things you absolutely have to do for them (cooking and laundry, when they're young) whether or not your H wants a back rub.

well said, turtlehead

I don’t usually post on GQ, but I find this topic interesting, and it comes up in EN sometimes. It’s pretty much in line with a couple of previous posters.

I think it has to do with the belief that a happy marriage between mom and dad is the greatest gift we can give our children. And to achieve that happy marriage, we need to consider the needs of our spouse, sometimes before the ‘wants’ of our kids. That doesn’t mean you neglect your kids, but make sure the marital relationship is taken care of, because it’s the best way to take care of your kids.

At least that’s how I look at it. And how to make it happen? I think the key is to distinguish between your kids *needs* and *wants.* Your kids need your love, affection, time and attention, 3 squares, safety, etc. They don’t *need* all the things that we often give them, including costly toys, control over the remote <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , first choice on where to go out to eat every time or where to go on vacation. They don’t need to have the entire world revolve around them; in fact, I don’t think it’s good for them.

For example, you made plans 2 weeks ago to go out to a special dinner with your spouse this Friday. You and your spouse haven’t had a date in months. Today, your kid comes home from school and says ‘Tom invited me to a sleep-over on Friday – can I go?’ And there’s no way to both go to dinner and get your kid to the sleepover. What would you do? I think Harley would say, go to dinner with your spouse.

Martes

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by martes36:
<strong> I don’t usually post on GQ, but I find this topic interesting, and it comes up in EN sometimes. It’s pretty much in line with a couple of previous posters.

I think it has to do with the belief that a happy marriage between mom and dad is the greatest gift we can give our children. And to achieve that happy marriage, we need to consider the needs of our spouse, sometimes before the ‘wants’ of our kids. That doesn’t mean you neglect your kids, but make sure the marital relationship is taken care of, because it’s the best way to take care of your kids.

At least that’s how I look at it. And how to make it happen? I think the key is to distinguish between your kids *needs* and *wants.* Your kids need your love, affection, time and attention, 3 squares, safety, etc. They don’t *need* all the things that we often give them, including costly toys, control over the remote <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , first choice on where to go out to eat every time or where to go on vacation. They don’t need to have the entire world revolve around them; in fact, I don’t think it’s good for them.

For example, you made plans 2 weeks ago to go out to a special dinner with your spouse this Friday. You and your spouse haven’t had a date in months. Today, your kid comes home from school and says ‘Tom invited me to a sleep-over on Friday – can I go?’ And there’s no way to both go to dinner and get your kid to the sleepover. What would you do? I think Harley would say, go to dinner with your spouse.

Martes </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is a good explanation. When I look at it like this, it makes sense.

I have no problem letting the kids watch a little TV so that H and I can have a little time together, my parents actually called it "office time". The thing is H does think they are fine all the time. That all he should have to do is say good night and they go to bed (they are almos 8, 4 and almost 2). I like bedtime stories, and things like that. I do make time for my H. I put him first, I just can not do it any time of the day. Yeah I know the difference between simple exchanges and demands. Thing is if my oldests asks for help with his homework and H wants to watch a movie, I help with homework, if H wants to go in the Hot Tub but Laundry needs to be done so there is clothes in the morning, I do laundry. He could help me do these things and then there would be more time left for what he wants to do. However I have the responsiblity of the kids, and house and him. He tends to not help me meet my needs and responsibilites, and half the time does not want me around, but when he does I am suppose to drop everything. Is that really what I am suppose to do? According to the books it is.

KMEJ

Here's what I hear you asking between the lines:

Your husband doesn't give a **** about the children, but he wants to be #1 King Baby in your book. Is this the right thing to do in your situation? Neglect the kids so that husband can be pandered to AT THE EXPENSE of the children?

That is not what I read into Harley's position on this.

What I see him saying is that the marriage relationship must take priority. A woman (or husband) who puts babies in the marital bed to comfort them at night with the idea that this will make the child feel safe are turning their backs on the needs of their spouses and their children.

Children do not feel safe in homes where their every whim is catered to while the marriage that forms the very foundations of their existence is chipped away by the law of neglect.

However, when a father is abusive to his wife in front of the children; when a father is abusive to his children *IN COMPETITION* with his children for the attention of the wife/mother; when a father undermines the basic necessities of safety, care, and love that children need to grow and thrive... then that father is not participating in a marriage, but wants to push all the other "runts" away from Mother's Milk!

Sorry - that is not a husband I would place before my children. He's more like a tom-cat that kills his own.

I'll bite...

lets start that I'm right in the thick of it all...
three..
oldest six..
youngest three...
did I mention the new puppy in obediance class..

the relationship between my husband is in equal importance to the relationship with my children...

first off...i married a guy that is just as vested in the down and dirty work of raising children as I am..
he's changed the same number of diapers..
knows how to run the dishwasher, washing machine...
and is an awesome cook..

I work part time twelve hour shifts...gone all day or all night...
and he is as good as me...

does he do things "my way"..nope..
but I have and never will "critisize" his way with the kids...

I try to arrange days that I am home..and he is at work...that there is a tidying up time prior to him coming home....as well as a planned activity....so that when he walks in the door...there is pretty much decreased chaos...and everyone is happy to see him..AND has time to see him...

playdough..
reading stories
bike riding etc...

I put out his most comfy sweats and tennies...waiting for him on the bed so that when he comes home to change there's something for him to put on..

not always....
not because he can't dress himself...
but because I want him to know that I thought of him during the day...

I make a fresh pot of coffee prior to him coming home....no matter how much I am DYING for some...
I don't pour it for him...or necessarilly wait on him...but I would get it for him if he wanted..

we always say grace together before eating...thanking God for our jobs...and that daddy is home...etc...
when I work days ...I hear the same thanks in reverse...

he calls me at work and tells me how the kids are driving him crazy...and when the oldest asks him who is he talking to ...he tells them his therapist...!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I have never been and hope to neve be too tired for a little fun or noogie...(noogie.sheesh what a term.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )
thats my TREAT as much as his...and I'll be darned if I'm cheating myself out of something so awesome....

I act happy to see him when I see him..because I am...AND because I focus on the positive things....about him....

If and when I/we want a special night...or 'date night at home..." or to watch something on tV with just him..I take the responsibility of running the kids ragged to get them tired enough to bed easily...if I'm the one home ...

I pack lunches the day before..
set out clothes for tomorrow the day before..

I do anything and everything I can to de-stress the chaos in the home......and make things run as smoothly as they can...

and try to avoid crisis moments

I cherish Mr. Ark very deeply...
I keep that thought formost in my mind..

why do I do that..
because for 6 years prior to the first baby..there was me and him...

because I know that I am happier and healthier with him in my life...and so are my children...

I want him to be proud that I am his wife..
I want him to know how much I admire him...
no matter the day or month or year...

he makes a much better mother than I would be without him...

the how is in the action and planning...
the why is because that's what I vowed to do..

ark

Also my H gets jealous when I spend time with our kids. He says I treat them better then him, and that he feels less important to me.


This is IMPORTANT information! Please discuss it further with your H.

Does he get jealous when you're spending time doing unavoidable things such as bathing them and sanitizing bottles? If so, perhaps the two of you can POJA that he will bathe them while you sanitize the bottles, or vice versa, and then when that's done you'll have time to do something together.

Or is he jealous of discretionary time that you spend with them? If this is the case then perhaps you can hire a sitter once a week and have a night out.

Something that worked well for me when my kids were young enough to need a sitter is once a month I'd keep a friends kids overnight on a Friday, and once a week she'd keep mine. That way once a month we got a Fri night and Sat home alone with your Hs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

One thing I've had to work on is making my kids learn not to interrupt when they come into the room and my H and I are talking. My H and I are usually talking about "unimportant" stuff - just chatting - and the kids usually have something "important" to say, like asking where a dictionary is so they can do their homework. My gut response is to turn away from my H while he's in mid-sentence and give my attention to the kids. This is incredibly rude to my H, and it doesn't teach my kids how to enter a conversation politely, either. Maybe something like this is going on, and that's why your H feels like you treat the children better than you do him.

Definitely discuss this with your H, get him to clarify what he means, ask him for specific examples, and THANK HIM for telling you about his feelings. Don't defend yourself, just THANK HIM. Then brainstorm with him and find out how you can change your behavior(s) and expectation(s) so you are both happier.

Martes that does make a lot of sense that way. I could follow that well, however think I already do pretty much (can work on it more <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) However H still gets jealous, any thoughts as to why that is?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KaylaAndy:
<strong> KMEJ

Here's what I hear you asking between the lines:

Your husband doesn't give a **** about the children, but he wants to be #1 King Baby in your book. Is this the right thing to do in your situation? Neglect the kids so that husband can be pandered to AT THE EXPENSE of the children?

That is not what I read into Harley's position on this.

What I see him saying is that the marriage relationship must take priority. A woman (or husband) who puts babies in the marital bed to comfort them at night with the idea that this will make the child feel safe are turning their backs on the needs of their spouses and their children.

Children do not feel safe in homes where their every whim is catered to while the marriage that forms the very foundations of their existence is chipped away by the law of neglect.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">KaylaANdy:

Nice post !!!. You do realize that you have just defined what many people in this world do called "Attachment Parenting". This is a whole other can of worms that is best not brought up here. I just bring it up here b/c this is what my sister does with her kids and this Thanksgiving was a complete and utter disaster b/c of how these kids deal with a "public" situation... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ...OK, now back to our regular scheduled programming.

Thanks every one for your responses. I was typing as you all were, I was not trying to over look any of you. It is all great advice, and ideas and way to think about things. My H and i have about an hour a day together between me getting home and him leaving, he has Thursday's off and he goes out with friends, I work a second job so I work 7-2:30 m-f and I work as a server on Friday nights and Saturday days. I tend to see H around 8pm on Saturday night and maybe Sunday if he gets it off. Occasionally he is home around 9 on weeknights so we can spend time together, however I am so tired I usually fall asleep by 10:30, as he stays up until 2ish. When I get home from work at 2:30 the kids are so excited to see me and I say hi to him and to H, H wants to spend time with me, and I have a hard time peeling the kids off to be alone with H. I make sure while he is at work that i clean the house, do the laundry, the yard work, the grocery shopping, plan the meals ect. If I know that H will be home to spend time with me then I make sure that things are done (or try to) if he will be home close to bedtime, I put the kiddos to bed so that they are "out of the way" so to speak. I do try, however H still feels slighted! On Thursdays H plans the 3 hours we have before he goes out with friends, he typically makes dinner and has something else up his sleve. There is not much time left. Any suggestions?

In my opinion people who are threatened by their spouse making THEIR kids a priority are insecure and selfish. JMHO.

Miker

Lemonman will you just give me a brief overview of what Attachment parenting is? Please.

My wife and I had issues with this as well. She always put the kids before me.

It's not an issue of your spouse competing with the kids for your attention. It becomes an issue of your spouse thinking that meeting your kids needs (and wants) is more important to you than maintaining your relationship with them.

Many women have a tendency to naturally "freeze out" the H from child rearing because they don't trust their H with the kids. When this happens, your H is going to be left out in the cold, starting the inevitable downward spiral of family destruction.

Here's how you fix it:
1) Decide that the marriage is high priority. It will be the relationship that ensures your children's security.

2) You both decide that your children's mortal needs are equally important to you both. You jointly decide they come first. I'm talking about food, shelter, clothing. All other childrens "needs" come second to your marriage. I'm talking about soccer practice, piano lessons, and trips to Chuck E Cheese.

3) Learn to tell your kids "No" and "Wait"

So, here's how this works in practice:

1) If you and your H have scheduled alone time in the bedroom and little Joey is banging on the door, you either ignore him or discipline him for interrupting this time.

2) If your H gets fired on the same afternoon that Suzy has cheerleading practice, it might be ok that she misses it so you can be there to support your H

3) If your H does something with the kids you don't agree with or approve of, NEVER contradict him in front of them. Talk to him in private to preserve his dignity and not undermine his authority. Assume he loves his kids and wants to be a good parent. You are not their lone defender.
(This doesn't apply to domestic violence or abuse)

4) If your H is playing in the big softball tourny and wants you to be there to cheer him on, EVERYBODY goes, even if they don't want to.

5) If your H likes a particular meal the kids don't, fix it occasionally. The kids will eat if they get hungry.

I once grounded my kid for not doing homework the third time in a row. Wife thought I was harsh and told me so in front of the kid. This made me livid and I hated my wife doing that. It was disrespectful.

You must respect his role as a parent.

In my parents home, my mother cooked meals that my father liked. If we kids wanted to eat we learned to like it. My mom and dad bought cars THEY liked...we learned to adapt. Did any of our NEEDS go unmet? Absolutetly not. Did we sometimes not get what we WANTED because mom and dad put their relationship first? Yup. There was NEVER any question in our minds that their marriage was important to them. We were secure in that. I think it was an excellent model for us. They are still married and quite happy today.

Your children MUST know that their Mom and Dad put their marriage relationship first...because that's the only thing that will ensure that their family will stay secure.

Low

PS: I made this gender specific because it is commonly mothers who become overly absorbed in their kids. It may happen occasionally with fathers as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KMEJ:
<strong> Lemonman will you just give me a brief overview of what Attachment parenting is? Please. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> :

PLease don't ask me to do this. One, I am not a parent (yet) and feel unqualified to debate the merits of this. I am an MD with **some** training in pediatrics so I have so basis for an educated opinion, and two this is such a controversial subject that this board does not need this debate in here. I think if you did a google search on this you would get a lot of information. The info is out there. YOu can jusge just from my one post what my opinion of all of this is, but I will leave it at that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Trust me, you don't want to go there on this subject.