|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 336
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 336 |
So...read my whole story below to catch up, it's a long one. Basically...where we're at right now - </font> - <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm in Plan A, also in IC to figure out how and why I cheated multiple times. I have NC with OW and want to rebuild.</font></li>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BS/WW seems to have slight leanings towards wanting to work things out someday, but says I have lots of work to do first and it may take awhile. And she's in A with OM still.</font></li>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm trying to figure out why she is in her A with OM still, given the following facts: </font> - <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She basically has said she's not in love with him, and is in love with me still, even though she's tried to hate me and love him.</font></li>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She continually brings up the fact that he is 2000 miles away as evidence that the R isn't as strong as I may think.</font></li>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She has complained of him to me many times, even so far as to tell me 2 weeks ago that she might not go to see him for Thanksgiving after not talking to him for 5 days (they made up and she went).</font></li>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She drops little hints now and again that make me realize she does think maybe we can work it out someday - little things like hinting we could buy a house together later, etc.etc.</font></li>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She constantly says "stop worrying about him, he has nothing to do with whether or not we can rebuild someday."</font></li>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The most telling piece of evidence: I have asked her point-blank "why are you in a R with OM?" And she can't give me a direct and sensible answer. She either changes the subject, or goes off on some other tangent (her favorite is "you shouldn't be concerned, I'm with him and not you and you have your own work to do etc.etc.") Although, she did say "a few reasons" and then gave one as "I feel like I owe him since he was there at the beginning of this mess and helped me through it." Lame. And of course that was the only one she got out before starting on about something else. Interestingly enough - when I bring him up and get sad or am visibly hopeless, she tends to be reassuring and even somewhat lovey-dovey. Last night I was asking her about him and she said the usual "don't worry" but then also said "we are still best friends. We're OK, I'm not going anywhere" and gave me a big hug. So - I'm not suffering delusions that she's madly in love with him and wants to be with him. I don't think she's really "foggy" in the classic definition. I have a few theories as to what she's doing and why, wondering if y'all want to speculate on this: </font> - <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She's with him as a way to control a part of her life, when so much feels out of control, acting totally selfishly since she feels like all she gave to me was abused</font></li>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She gets validation and attention from him, and romance when she wants it/needs it, but also gets some from me on a more regular basis (since I'm here and he's not) - cake-eating</font></li>
- <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She's using him as a test of my patience and determination - if I can hang through this A for awhile, I must really mean it when I say I want her back</font></li>
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's this last point that has prevented me from following Weaver's, TMCM's and others' advice re: "cut her off until he's gone." I fear that if I DID say that, her reaction would be "oh see I was right, you're not really sincere about wanting me back if you're going to bail out after only a few months because I have someone else - plus, you probably want to step out of my radar so you can mess around town." None of which is true, of course. My biggest fear is - I AM getting jaded and feel like I'm being used as a doormat. She lives 30 miles away now, and that distance is going to create some automatic space between us, so I'm interested to see where that goes. But, I've put out an arbitrary and possibly very movable date of early March - if she's not done with OM by then, I'm going to have to cut her off to save myself. I'm having a hard time focusing on my issues when it's easier to obsess over him. <small>[ December 01, 2004, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 7,093
Member
|
Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 7,093 |
Vnus,
It's good to see an update from you. Wish you still weren't going through this.
You made a decision to continue with your Plan A I assume for the six months that Harley recommends, since you said until March.
I hate to see you have to go through this during the holidays. If it were me I would go into Plan B now to avoid that pain over Christmas, but maybe guys are different as far as being able to handle this type of sharing/torture which you are going through.
You are a bigger threat to your marriage now than your WW because of the pain she is inflicting on you, especially under the guise of "best friends" and being loving towards you. What a contradiction. Doesn't take long for resentment to sap the love right out of a BS. But you know best I suppose.
If you can afford it, why don't you call one of the Harley's or Penny Tuppe over a SYMC, and get some advice from them. And it might help to ease your mind if they agree with your plan, maybe they can also offer some insight into what is really going on in your WW's head.
Take care Vnus, & I hope this doesn't drag out too much longer, for your sake and your sanity.
weaver
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,950
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,950 |
Hi VM,
Glad to hear from you.
As far as your WW is concerned, I would not put ANY credence into anything she tells you while still involved with the OM. Remember that ACTIONS speak louder than words and nothing would speak loudly than her ending all contact with the OM and expressing her desire to rebuild the marriage. Just make sure than when the day arrives for you to go to Plan B, that you don't wimp out, ok?
TMCM
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,816
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,816 |
VM:
"I don't think she's really "foggy" in the classic definition."
Congra2lations. I sure as hell do.
This sitch is ripe for plan B.
Sure, she SAYS she'll have "told you so" if you go dark on her, but in truth, if you do this right, your plan B letter will clearly state why you're doing it. You're not doing it 2 go back 2 chasing skirts, you're doing it because her A is 2 painful for you. You're saying: "Call me when you have ended that relationship and can prove it 2 my satisfaction. That way, I'll know you're serious about recovery."
She wants 2 do things one at a time, like my W does. Really, rather than doing this one thing at a time, she just doesn't want 2 end her A. Push her off the fence.
-ol' 2long
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,830
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 3,830 |
Two things:
First, I think many people here are forgetting or overlooking that VnusMars was a serial cheater. Now, that is not to say that he hasn't changed or seen the light or something...BUT...
I see this post here and I do not see one single word--not ONE--about himself, or working on his issues, or why he pursues sex when he wants to feel loved, or why he confuses/intermingles sex and relationships with OTHERS with real intimacy, or why he would betray his WW over and over and over and over and over again. And for the love of God, why would he expect her to want to be in this M when he just SAYS that he has changed!! Nothing personal VnusMars, but this post is entirely focused on HER and there is no indication that you have changed AT ALL!!! At this time, I see absolutely, positively NO REASON why she should even be speaking to you. You have not yet done the time or done the work to actually change the deeper issues you have, and until you do, for her own protection, she would be wisest to stay the heck away from you! Until you take the focus off of her and put it on YOU and YOUR ISSUES ONLY, in my opinion you are another affair waiting to happen.
Second, I'm not saying that two wrongs make a right, but WHY OH WHY isn't anyone jumping in here saying, "Dude, you have issues of your own. Stop obsessing about her A, and put all of your energies and attention on your serial cheating! She owes you nothing at this point, and if she made a bad choice to have an A of her own, she will either end it or she won't--but that is irrelevant to the issues you need to be dealing with! You are using this obsession as an excuse to not do the work you need to do! So stop it and stay on your own program!"
I don't get this. Where are the actions? Where is the intensive individual counseling? Where is the followup? How about support groups (like SLAA or SA)? Nope, none of that is even discussed. DARN!! Vnus, I care about you as a human and really do hope that you end up getting your W back, but before you do, if there is to be ANY HOPE at all of a truly mature, healthy, intimate relationship then you have GOT to work on you and stop focusing on her. Period!!!!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> This has me steamed!!!
CJ
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,950
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,950 |
FaithfulNewCJ,
I strongly beg to differ with you about VM not working on his issues, and unlike his WW he has accepted responsibility for his issues. If she doesn't trust him, then fine she should stop telling him she loves him, that he shouldn't be concerned about the OM and go file for divorce instead of going back to the OM time and again to boink him whenever it pleases her. And remember that it was she who started her affair way before she found out anything about VM ONS and got all high and migty on him when she found out that what she did to him, he did to her as well. Furthermore ,unlike VM, she is far from being repentant about her betrayal. Sorry but the only one right now that I see taking any positive action is VM. Lastly, trust is a two way street you know.
TMCM <small>[ December 02, 2004, 02:21 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 336
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 336 |
FNCJ - I definitely agree with you on the subject of how she has every reason to fear me and a return to our M. She has said so in our conversations, that "I have to be willing to take that risk again" and "I'm skeptical that you can change, that your efforts are sincere."
But let me clarify, as TMCM tried to do - I AM working on my issues. Don't take my silence on that subject the wrong way, I'm definitely putting much more energy into MY healing than I am worrying about her and OM. TMCM can vouch for how often I used to post here, how many hours I spent obsessing over her and OM, in previous months...and now I'm lucky if I post here once every 2 weeks or so. That in and of itself proves something <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I am in regular IC (once a week) and my IC is starting to target learned behavior stemming from my father's multiple infidelities and string of ex-wives and the fact that when the DV happened it was my Mom who left and she kinda stopped being a mother. He's giving me the tools to learn how to deal with my self-esteem and validation issues.
You don't hear those things from me here because MB is about rebuilding marriages, not so much oneself. Yes, my issues and growth are relevant to whether or not she should take me back or whether or not I'm M material, but my more immediate concern, and the immediate concern of my IC, is "what is she doing and why?" because the only way to test-drive my results is by being back in a relationship, preferably my M...and her actions and words are confusing the he11 out of all of us.
I need to know how long to hold on, when to Plan B if necessary, and what to put up with in the meantime...because my growth is being stunted by the existence of this OM and her intentions for us, despite her reassurances that I shouldn't worry.
UPDATE: I met with my IC last night, and he had had lunch earlier in the day with my W's IC. We both signed releases saying it was OK for them to talk about us. Anyway, her IC basically said "as far as VM's wife is concerned, the M is over and she's exploring new options with this OM." My IC is concerned because he hears a different story from me - "she's scared and hurt but still loves me and is taking a 'wait & see' approach to our M, and OM is just a distraction."
I think she's misleading her IC - she said so to me a few weeks ago, after she admitted that she still loves me, doesn't love OM etc.etc. she then told me that she hadn't told this to her IC. She finally did a week or so ago.
My IC has recommended a 4-way between me, her, and both of our IC's to clear the air about where everyone is mentally and emotionally. I think it's a great idea, but we're going to wait out this month first.
I'm thinking that...she's very confused and conflicted. She shouldn't be with OM, sees the end of that A coming around someday soon, but is afraid to let it go. She's afraid to let it go because she does get something good from it. She also doesn't want to let it go because of it's effect on me - letting go will be seen as a sign of hope for us that she doesn't want to give me, plus having him around tests my patience and sincerity. Plus, maybe in a small way she IS trying to see if it goes anywhere. In the meantime, she's keeping tabs on my growth, and she's healing from the pain I caused, and just needs time.
When she says to me "heal yourself, fix your issues, become a good person who doesn't cheat," I think what she's really saying is "give me time to make sure I can forgive and take that risk." It's not so much that I have a ton of work to do on me, I'm already doing that, it's that she has to have some time to do her own healing. Why she needs OM around in the meantime is a totally different story.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,950
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,950 |
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I need to know how long to hold on, when to Plan B if necessary, and what to put up with in the meantime...because my growth is being stunted by the existence of this OM and her intentions for us, despite her reassurances that I shouldn't worry."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your growth should NOT be dependent on her or the OM's actions for it is for your benefit not hers.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I'm thinking that...she's very confused and conflicted. She shouldn't be with OM, sees the end of that A coming around someday soon, but is afraid to let it go. She's afraid to let it go because she does get something good from it. She also doesn't want to let it go because of it's effect on me - letting go will be seen as a sign of hope for us that she doesn't want to give me, plus having him around tests my patience and sincerity. Plus, maybe in a small way she IS trying to see if it goes anywhere. In the meantime, she's keeping tabs on my growth, and she's healing from the pain I caused, and just needs time.
When she says to me "heal yourself, fix your issues, become a good person who doesn't cheat," I think what she's really saying is "give me time to make sure I can forgive and take that risk." It's not so much that I have a ton of work to do on me, I'm already doing that, it's that she has to have some time to do her own healing. Why she needs OM around in the meantime is a totally different story."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are excusing the inexcusable because of your feelings of remorse for your affairs. But remember that nothing excuses a spouse from having an affair whether it's a series of ONS [like yours] or a full blown affair [like hers]. I have some simpathy for BS that fall into RA [revenge affairs] but in the case of your W I have none because she started her affair before she knew anything about your ONS. She is using your remorse about your affairs as an excuse for her own affair and facing her own issue of betrayal.
Even though she is not living with you at this moment, don't assume that Plan B will not affect her. It's one thing to have intermittent times of NC [no contact] by her choice and quite totally another a NC by you via Plan B. When you go to Plan B you will be essentially conveying to her to 'sh** or get off the pot'.
In any case, I still hold the view that when the time does come for you to go to Plan B you do not cave in to any attempt [including emotionally blackmailing you that if you don't talk to her that the marriage is over] on her part to negotiate a continuation of the status quo. You must stay steadfast on the deal breakers of ending her affair, sending a NC letter to OM [verified by you],willingness on her part to adopt the policy of mutual accountability, and follow a marital recovery plan that follows the MB princiles. Anything less than this is totally unacceptable. Like you have to earn her trust, so does she have to earn yours.
TMCM
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 336
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 336 |
Thanks TMCM...honestly, I'm not 100% sure why I posted originally. I go back and read my original post, and it's the same old thing with me, obsessing over her and OM, worrying about whether or not she'll take me back, even after all the progress I've made and determination to let time take its course and hope for the best.
Yes, the more she and OM keep going the more confused I'm getting, my IC is getting, and I'm sure SHE is getting. Hopefully it will reach a breaking point with her where she realizes what she stands to lose or gain by all of this contradictory behavior.
I should take many things as good signs and be happy with them for what they are: She's still talking to me when she doesn't have to. We still spend lots of time together even though we don't have to. She still indicates there is hope for us even though it's probably hard for her to see right now. She indicates that OM could end any day or not even though she could easily run to his arms and let me know about it. She tried and failed to fall in love with him and out of love with me, and was honest with me about that.
She hasn't said anything to me in the last few weeks that she hasn't said before. Her ACTIONS are becoming a bit more positive, that much is certain. So, I should take the modicum of progress I've seen from her as a good sign and not worry about the rest of it.
She needs to take time to figure out a lot of things before she knows what she wants. She may want me back, she may not. She may want him, she may not. She may want to be alone and find someone new later, she may not. Too early to tell. It's not doing me any good to obsess over it.
The only thing that's starting to bother me is what my IC said last night - "we can only fix you fully in the context of a relationship" - meaning, he can give me ACADEMIC advice on the roots of my serial cheating, my narcissistic tendencies, etc. but until I put it to the test it's useless. He made the analogy with a tree falling in the woods making sound - a reforming serial cheater and somewhat-narcissist is only dangerous when interacting with others and in a relationship, not by himself.
So in order to know that I'm better, I have to have her back, but she's not coming back until she knows I'm better, which I can't be unless I have her back...it's a catch 22. And that scares me.
Eventually I will have to go Plan B, if things remain as they are between now and March. And I will make sure that when I do go Plan B, it's for real, because I'm sure by then I will be so incensed and fed up with the whole situation I'll be relieved to be out from under it.
I'll keep ya posted. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Edited to add...
I have also gotten feedback elsewhere that the current "keeping me hooked but blatantly in A with OM" fiasco has a different purpose outside the 3 factors I outlined above (1. control, 2. validation, 3. testing my patience)...that reason #4 is "punishing me for what I've done to her." Meaning, she's in the A and keeping it alive for all of the reasons above, but also as a way to make me suffer knowing I am very worried about that A. I guess I wonder why she would be secretive about the A if that were the case (she doesn't tell me when she's going to see him until the last minute, and she rarely talks about him, and if she's with me and he calls she walks away), seems like she would want to throw it in my face (and actually she did in earlier months when she was very VERY angry). But I suppose if part of her wants to hurt me just the mere KNOWLEDGE that the A is ongoing is enough.
It's been suggested that I back off, not cut off all contact but certainly keep my distance and never mention the A again as a way to push her off that particular fence. What do you think of that scenario? <small>[ December 02, 2004, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 7,093
Member
|
Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 7,093 |
Vnus if you could read your posts the way others see them, then you would see that you are throwing away all of your aces under the guise of guilt.
You have stated your truth, you have recognized the pain you caused through your deceptions and betrayals. You have voiced a desire to work on your marriage and fix all that was broken with it and with you. That is where the buck should have stopped. Now you are enabling her affair by buying into the blame game.
Her affair is NOT you fault. I cannot stand to see someone take the blame for something like this. Guilt destroys people, it cause depression, it makes them put up with cruelties by others.
It doesn't matter where her head is or what she says. She is hurting two of God's children and THAT is not okay.
If she was so hurt by you, than why doesn't she show it? Why is she running between your arms and OM's arms. That makes no sense.
I believe that you are atoning for your past sins, and I believe that you have accepted that you were a creep at one time, but I doubt that you ever will be again because now you know the pain of betrayal by the one you love.
But eventually you are going to have to stand up and say NO MORE! I have paid and now I deserve a wife who is supportive, loving and incapable of inflicting this kind of pain on me. As you have said you are now capable of being for her.
I abhor cake-eaters especially when they have the audacity to blame it on the one they are hurting.
If she goes and spends Christmas with OM, leaving you home to suffer in your guilt then I think you will have an answer.
Did you ever think that maybe she just wants what she can't have? She wanted you all through your marriage because you weren't really all there, were you? And now that you are completely there for her and willing to do whatever it takes, she doesn't really want to be back with you, or else she would not be with OM every chance she gets. For a woman, it is almost impossible to go back and forth between two men. It's that loyalty thing. Men can compartmentalize their affairs, but women usually must choose one or the other.
Like coffeeman says, you better be very strong in your Plan B to make sure that SHE is sincere and willing to walk the walk of recovery.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 336
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 336 |
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver: <strong> Vnus if you could read your posts the way others see them, then you would see that you are throwing away all of your aces under the guise of guilt. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Weaver, I appreciate your concern, however... I honestly don't think either one of us truly feels like "this R with OM is OK because of the bad things VM did."
It's more indirect than that - the A started out of unhappiness in the M - and it was a mistake, and she actually HAS apologized profusely for starting the A, finally.
But - the CONTINUATION of the A is to her completely irrelevant to my A's except for the fact that she wouldn't be with someone else if I had never cheated and we were separated. If my contributions to all of this had never taken place, we would be together, OM would be gone, and we would be in MC in a more classic WS/BS configuration.
BUT - she has said in the past that even if I never cheated, there is a small possibility she may have left the M after the A in a classic foggy move. I am 100% convinced, though, that even had she done that she would've come back soon and wanted to rebuild - we have too strong a love and connection for her to have abandoned our M for him.
So the fact that she is still with him seems to have little to do with her and I. The fact that she started the A with him to begin with has EVERYTHING to do with us, and is something we will have to work through when we go into MC.
She's not justifying her A by throwing mine back at me, not anymore. She used to say "you can't blame me for being with him when you were with all those women" and "yeah well picturing you with all those girls kills me, too." But she doesn't say that anymore...when I express displeasure with OM, she says "you need to stop worrying about him and worry about yourself, he has nothing to do with whether or not we reconcile" and "I'm not with you anymore so it's not your business."
And I'm only tolerating the A in less-than-demanding way because it IS ridiculous to put my foot down when she still thinks I'm a monster that's capable of great evil. Because of my sins, I have little right to ask her for anything, even asking her to abandon her OM.
My point is - I don't think we'd be much further along if he didn't exist. Even if they break up tomorrow, she isn't coming back to me right now. I still have to fix ME, and she has to believe in me. He is somewhat irrelevant. HE only impacts our future together in 2 ways:
1. The longer it goes on, the more I fear she'll fall for him and want to be with him. Or...Does she already love him and is lying to me when she says she doesn't? 2. I am deeply hurt by that A - how much longer will I be willing to put up with it, and at what point will I bail out and say "enough?"
She tells me, and shows me in some ways, that #1 isn't true. She says (and there is some evidence to support) that she doesn't love him, that she sees all his flaws, that he's not her ideal man, that just being in an R with him doesn't mean it's going to go deeper, that she can keep things as they are indefinitely. But I am reserving SOME skepticism on this.
So #2 seems to be the clincher - how much longer will I torture myself with his mere existence, no matter how much he does or doesn't really mean to her? And if I DO bail out at some point, how will she react? Will she be shocked into a wake-up call and get off the fence and start getting her act together lest she lose me for good, or will she see it as me just being weak and impatient, justifying her negative opinions of me and saying "see I knew he wasn't serious?"
The next few months will say alot. We have more geographical distance between us than we have had in 8 years. But we also have no intention of not seeing each other or supporting each other emotionally, mentally, physically, financially...
Pain and distance are going to automatically make me back off some. Maybe that will be enough. And if it's not, then when March rolls around and things are the same, then it's time for Plan B. If you consider that my last and final D-Day was only 2 months ago, I think I'm doing just fine sticking to the "6 month" timeframe prescribed by SH. March may even be a bit too soon, but we'll see how these 3 months go.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 7,093
Member
|
Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 7,093 |
Okay, that makes more sense. And Harley does recommend 6 months tops so you are following the Plan.
Just bothers me a bit when I read the statements about what you did as opposed to what she is doing. Self-blame is a huge crippler, it has it's place but only until amends have been met. After that it is self destructive to say the least.
As far as you being viewed as weak if you are forced in Plan B, I don't think so. I think it would show a great strength and self respect to be able to say "I love you, but I just can't take the pain anymore. Call me when OM is out of the picture for good, and are ready to talk" What could be more loving than that?
I truly hope that you and your WW work things out. Maybe because my DD's dad is a popular musician also and we didn't have MB, or really any tools to deal with his infidelity. And I know that the pull from the fans is great, and that musicians seem to have more than average problems with self esteem. But caught in the middle of it, like we were we saw no way out except to break up. The fighting killed all the love really.
So I really wish you both well. And I hope she has her anger issues a little more under control than she did when she posted here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
(yep that was for you Mrs. Vnus, if you are reading...and I mean that sincerely)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,816
Member
|
Member
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 10,816 |
CJ:
I will agree with one point you made. VM *is* obsessing about what his W is or isn't doing. He needs 2 stop that because it's not getting him anywhere.
But he is in counseling and he is "working on his issues." In the end, it's going 2 be consistency of respectful behavior on his part that's going 2 get his W's attention, if anything.
I'm not convinced he'll be around "for her" when that happens, though.
-ol' 2long
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 336
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 336 |
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long: <strong> CJ:
I will agree with one point you made. VM *is* obsessing about what his W is or isn't doing. He needs 2 stop that because it's not getting him anywhere.
But he is in counseling and he is "working on his issues." In the end, it's going 2 be consistency of respectful behavior on his part that's going 2 get his W's attention, if anything.
I'm not convinced he'll be around "for her" when that happens, though.
-ol' 2long </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2Long - nice to hear from you on this thread! I knew it was just a matter of time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Don't underestimate my tolerance for this current doormat role I'm playing. I'm doing it for a few very good reasons:
1. You're right - demonstrating sincerity and growth will go a long way towards convincing her that I'm taking care of business. She still thinks all of my current chaste behavior is designed only to get her back and within a few years or so I'll get bored and drift. She'll have to get over that. 2. SHE DOESN'T WANT ME TO GIVE UP. She wants to believe that my current attempts to heal, and my working to get her back, are sincere. She even criticizes anyone who tells me "your marriage is over, move on" in a tone that says "no, don't give up, there's still a good chance we can work this out." Sbe's trying to figure out how to live without me to see if she can. That fact DOES allow me to look PAST her OM and focus on myself and her. OM is a distraction from pain and not much more. I sometimes waffle in that belief, but ultimately I know it to be true. 3. And most importantly - if I continue to be tolerant, wait her out, observe her growth, and take care of my own growth...then I will be OK no matter what. If she takes me back 4, 6, 12 months from now, wonderful. But if I decide I'm through, or she says she's totally through, then at least I can say I tried my damnedest and it didn't work and move on.
A big part of my current pain and suffering is the fact that I'm not ready to move on, and I fear the true nature of her R with OM. The rest of it is all the completely awful things I have done to our marriage.
So...nutshell... I think I'm doing OK. I have moments where I'm obsessed and worried and sad and hopeless, and that's usually when I post a new message here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But overall, her actions and words indicate "maybe we can try again later once I believe in you again."
That's enough for me for now.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 47
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 47 |
VnusMars, I haven't posted to you before, but I have followed your story. My FWH is also a musician, although not a serial cheater (as far as I know). When I first found out about the A, he promised NC and to work on the marriage. About a week later, he called OW and continued to talk to her regularly for about 7 weeks until I found out. I believe there is no longer any contact now. During our recovery he has told me that he always loved me and never wanted to leave me. He just wasn't sure if we were going to be able to get through this. That's why he kept talking to other woman. He wanted to make sure she would still be there for him if things between he and I didn't work. Once he believed they could work, he was done. I think thats what your WW is doing. After all, I think you have a lot more to prove to her than she has to prove to you.....
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,950
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,950 |
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SJ'sViolet: I think you have a lot more to prove to her than she has to prove to you.....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its been shown that ONS are the 'least' destructive of all type of affairs to a marriage. This doesn't mean that a BS doesn't experience the pain of betrayal at all, but it does not compare with the pain that is experienced by the BS when a WS is still continuing the affair past d-day.
At this moment, VM's WW is the worse of the two because unlike VM, she has not ended her affair with the OM, and is lying to BOTH men. She has exhibited a degree of cruelty and selfishness that makes VM's pale in comparison. She is also making a mockery out of her counseling sessions with her IC whom she's telling a totally different thing than she is to VM.
I would agree with your comment IF she had not had an affair of her own prior to knowing about his ONS but if I were to agree with your logic then it would also mean that YOU would have a lot more to prove to your WH than he to you, wouldn't it?
TMCM <small>[ December 03, 2004, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,950
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,950 |
Sorry,double post. <small>[ December 03, 2004, 09:35 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 336
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 336 |
Violet - thanks for your post. Honestly, I don't think that's it at all.
I am truly convinced (sometimes more than others) that there is only a VERY small part of her that is thinking "see where this goes" where OM is concerned. I don't think she's interested in pursuing a long-term, full-blown romance with him, and I have LOTS of evidence to support that. If she does have those feelings of "what if" then she is VERY good at hiding them and lying through her teeth and eyes about them to me.
Plus, she has made it clear that her R with OM has 2 very distinct parts: 1. The part where she started an A with him when our M was still intact and the reasons why. For this, she has apologized, finally after 3 months of NOT apologizing for it. 2. The post-D-Day part where she continues the R with him as what she sees herself: a single woman with no obligation to me as her H, a woman made single primarily by MY infidelities. For this she has no remorse, because in her eyes, her current R with OM has nothing to do with me. It's as if I should view that R as a platonic best friend would - disinterested.
To her, #1 is relevant to our M. #2 is not.
#2 would be relevant to the future of our M if she seemed to be continuing the R primarily as a way to test out a new possible love, a new partner, and had ZERO interest in possibly rebuilding with me. At that point, I would have to totally let go of any hope and move on. #2 would also be relevant if we were still together, or if she decides to rebuild and take me back but doesn't cut the ties with him (which of course will be a requirement and she knows it).
She is keeping that R at arm's length, from what I can tell. She tried to fall in love with him, tried to fall out of love with me, and failed. So now, that R is mostly a distraction, something that makes her feel better, something that takes her away from all the pain of the aftermath of what I have done, something that keeps me in check and punishes me. It could end any day according to her, and she is adamant that he is not her "future husband" (to use her words.)
She also is a very independent woman and doesn't NEED to be with anyone. When she says it's more likely that her R with OM will end and months will pass before she considers taking me back, I believe her.
If we take her current actions and words at face value - discard any beliefs we may have that she's acting illogically and destructively - and assume that she knows what's best for herself, and not question her motives...
Then this becomes MY PROBLEM. Meaning, I am the one worrying about OM. I am the one obsessing over what he means to her, even when she tells me my fears are unfounded. I am the one planning to go Plan B in a few months because I can't stand the thought of them together.
If I could just stop thinking about OM and trust that what she tells me is true, I would feel a whole lot better about things, I think. That's what I'm trying to do. I've made great strides, but obviously am still bothered by it. I mostly get sad and upset when I find out they're going to be together, when someone is making a trip to see the other - I'm not SURPRISED by it, but I do get upset - because it feels like one more nail in the coffin. I imagine them having a great time, romantic interludes, SF, all sorts of horrible images that destroy my hope. According to her, I put too much stock into the emotions behind their visits. I'm still skeptical.
So, we shall see.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 336
Member
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 336 |
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan: <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by SJ'sViolet: I think you have a lot more to prove to her than she has to prove to you.....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Its been shown that ONS are the 'least' destructive of all type of affairs to a marriage. This doesn't mean that a BS doesn't experience the pain of betrayal at all, but it does not compare with the pain that is experienced by the BS when a WS is still continuing the affair past d-day.
At this moment, VM's WW is the worse of the two because unlike VM, she has not ended her affair with the OM, and is lying to BOTH men. She has exhibited a degree of cruelty and selfishness that makes VM's pale in comparison. She is also making a mockery out of her counseling sessions with her IC whom she's telling a totally different thing than she is to VM.
I would agree with your comment IF she had not had an affair of her own prior to knowing about his ONS but if I were to agree with your logic then it would also mean that YOU would have a lot more to prove to your WH than he to you, wouldn't it?
TMCM </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM - I probably should qualify where you're coming from - my A's were more than just a series of ONS's - if you read my story again, I had one long-term A (over a year), that while it wasn't so much of an EA, still lasted awhile. The others were PA's of a few months in length, with a few ONS's thrown in.
But yes...I believe she is lying to HIM. She doesn't lie to ME so much, though, from what I can tell. But she doesn't tell him how much time she and I spend together, that we sleep together sometimes (sleeping, same bed but no SF), she doesn't even tell him where she is when she's standing in MY house talking to him on the phone. Part of me has entertained notions of exposing to him directly, I think I know how to get ahold of him. But, that would only open wounds.
At this point, I'm on my right track, and waiting for her to believe it. She's not doing herself or me any favors with OM, I think, but that's your opinion and mine, she doesn't share it.
All I can do is wait, and know I'm doing the right thing, and if it works great but if it doesn't then at least I will be able to say to her "I caused 90% of the damage to our marriage but you killed the final 10%, you drove the final nail in the coffin, not me."
At this point, I'm going to try and believe what she tells me and how she acts towards me, which is with a friendly affection and desire to still be around me. It really is like we are just best friends right now, and that's better than nothing.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,950
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 6,950 |
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by VnusMars: I probably should qualify where you're coming from - my A's were more than just a series of ONS's - if you read my story again, I had one long-term A (over a year), that while it wasn't so much of an EA, still lasted awhile. The others were PA's of a few months in length, with a few ONS's thrown in.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you for the clarification VM but that still doesn't change the fact that you ended your affair and ONS and have no more contact with the OW. It also doesn't change the fact that as much as your WW tells you that she doesn't want you to lose hope with reconciliation, she has not ended her affair with the OM.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But yes...I believe she is lying to HIM. She doesn't lie to ME so much, though, from what I can tell.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> A person either lies or tells the truth, there is no such thing as 'she doesn't lie to me so much, from what I can tell'. It's like a woman being pregnant or not, she either is or she isn't. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But she doesn't tell him how much time she and I spend together, that we sleep together sometimes (sleeping, same bed but no SF), she doesn't even tell him where she is when she's standing in MY house talking to him on the phone.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course she won't because that would mean that he'd probably dump her for lying to him.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Part of me has entertained notions of exposing to him directly, I think I know how to get ahold of him. But, that would only open wounds.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she isn't lying and deceiving the OM, then she shouldn't object that you tell him exactly the things the two of you do when you are together, should she? Afterall, she was not squeamish about telling off one of your OW to back off, was she?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At this point, I'm on my right track, and waiting for her to believe it. She's not doing herself or me any favors with OM, I think, but that's your opinion and mine, she doesn't share it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course she doesn't share our opinions because she doesn't want to accept the truth that she is a cake eating unfaithful wife that has not ended her affair, is lying to you, the OM, and her IC as well.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At this point, I'm going to try and believe what she tells me and how she acts towards me, which is with a friendly affection and desire to still be around me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you want to trust a woman whose actions do not match her words?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It really is like we are just best friends right now, and that's better than nothing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Best friends don't stab each other in the back VM. <small>[ December 03, 2004, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>
|
|
|
0 members (),
1,117
guests, and
78
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums67
Topics133,624
Posts2,323,520
Members72,026
|
Most Online6,102 Jul 3rd, 2025
|
|
|
|