To add one more thing to coffeeman's reply -

She also is a very independent woman and doesn't NEED to be with anyone. When she says it's more likely that her R with OM will end and months will pass before she considers taking me back, I believe her.

Not true. An independent woman who doesn't NEED to be with anyone, would be alone right now getting her life back on track. Not married and torturing one man and involved in an affair with another. No independence there, just pure good old fashioned selfishness and cruelty. Can you say "fog"?

Does OM know that she is just using him, and has absolutely no interest in a future with him?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Weaver:

"Not true. An independent woman who doesn't NEED to be with anyone, would be alone right now getting her life back on track. Not married and torturing one man and involved in an affair with another. No independence there, just pure good old fashioned selfishness and cruelty. Can you say "fog"?"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well said Weaver.

VM,

Please don't take my comments a bash fest against your WW for if you were involved in another affair at this moment, I would be just as harsh against your actions as I am against hers.

With that said, I will like to touch on another point. If your WW wants to see changes in you before she commits back to you and the marriage, how is she going to verify those changes by living apart from you? If she were behaving like a typical BW, the last thing she would want is to be separated from you to avoid making it easy for you to have another affair. She would want to see with her own eyes that the changes you make are permanent and not just cosmetic for the purposes of keeping her from leaving you. Oh she doesn't want you to have another affair not because she loves you but because she doesn't want you to fall in love with another woman and lose you for good. She is behaving with the same sense of entitlement that you did in the past. Now who is acting like a narcissist?

I'm sorry if the truth hurts you but unless you face it and stop making excuses for her selfish and cruel behavior you are enabling her to have another affair in the future.

So far you are doing a fine job of addressing your issues by quitting the band, going through counseling and implementing Plan A but you've got to overcome your guilt [not remorse] which your WW is exploiting mercilessly for her own selfish reasons.

TMCM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> To add one more thing to coffeeman's reply -

Does OM know that she is just using him, and has absolutely no interest in a future with him? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I doubt he does. I'm sure she doesn't characterize things this way to him at all. I'm sure she either avoids the subject of the future, or tells him things that are the opposite of what she tells me.

But yes, she's lying to someone somewhere. I'd like to believe she's lying to him, but who knows.
Once when we were together and he called, she went outside to talk to him - I got a little huffy, and she said "well it's not like I'm going to tell him I'm at your house and I just spent the night, am I??"
Little things like that lead me to believe he's getting less of the truth about me than I am getting about him.
I love when things start this way "My IC told me not to talk to you about OM, but..." and then she says something negative about him. And this is usually out of the blue, it doesn't seem to be triggered by anything I say or do.

She has said, in response to TMCM too, that "this is all about ME now, I'm being totally selfish and looking out for myself."


Yes, she's cake-eating, and being very selfish, but she feels justified doing so. And since her edict to me is "don't worry about OM, work on yourself and we'll see about us later," technically I shouldn't be stressing about OM and should be focusing on my problems and the pain I've caused us both.

Of course, she could be using me (I am still bearing some financial burden, and a good amount of her belongings are in my new roommate's garage, and I'm just...HERE...and he's not...so she does get daily contact and emotional support from someone she loves).
That's something that come March will be more out in the open - when the last of the logistical loose ends between us are tied up (except her car and our health insurance) - all money paid, all possessions separated - and she has no financial or logistical reliance on me, we'll see what happens then.

And she has "used" him in a way too - she borrowed $4000 from him to pay off her debts (his idea, apparently, and she is very adamant about paying him back more quickly than not). She said the loan has nothing to do with THEM, that it doesn't tie her to him romantically any more than she already is, that he could disappear tomorrow and she would still owe the money.

I don't know - yes, I suppose it's possible that the eventual outcome of this will be ME saying "I don't trust or respect this woman anymore." But she doesn't trust or respect me either and is considering the idea of rebuilding that. So...my sins are in the past, hers are in the past and present. But she doesn't see hers as "sin" so much because we're not together anymore.

Yes, I am being tolerant because in her eyes I owe her as much. I'm paying penance for my sins by allowing her to heal in whatever way she feels is necessary, even if it hurts me or makes absolutely no sense, and with full realization that the outcome may not be in my favor. I won't let it go on forever, of course, but now isn't the time to be issuing ultimatums or dropping bombs.

I expect that someday soon she will come to her senses and stop the lies and cake-eating, either by ending it with him and starting to rebuild us, or by DV'ing me and staying with him or going single.

Either way would be a welcome relief from all of these questions, and it may come down to me sooner or later making that decision for both of us.

<small>[ December 03, 2004, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

VnusMars

haven't posted to you on this but being a FWW myself and well, having a long way to go in the recovery area, I think you are ignoring very good advice from TMCM & Weaver in this situation.

I keep picking up from your posts a reason for not doing anything to end the cycle of your WW keeping both you & the OM dangling from a hook every time a suggestion is made or option discussed.

I guess I understand it alright, you blew it like me and feel I suggest you need to pay for what you have done and that excuses everything she does in your mind. I can't say if he positions were reversed that I wouldn't be any different.
I want to save my M to and would do almost ANYTHING to that end.

However, what a WW dream, 2 men fighting for you & being able to do whatever you like with or to each. My God what would I have done with that while in the fog. eek!

But what I also pick up in your posts VM is your FEAR. Fear of her choosing the OM and loosing your M. I understand that fear VM, I still have it and will for a long time. I think its natural to have it.

But, this is very destructive VM, and by ignoring the situation without saying enough is enough, is not going to get her off that fence.
You place far to much trust and attention on her words instead of coldly, dispassionately looking at her actions and evaluating those actions.
I know this is so hard, especially when your emotions overwhelm you.

Your WW is using your guilt to excuse her actions and there will be no change to this UNTIL she Like I did, like you did, accept responsibility for OUR actions and make a choice, the M or separation.
While your WW can get the support from both you and the OM then she will not move either way. Time will probably not change that VM.

Inaction is just as deadly as taking action too soon.

I would strongly recommend you review the plan B and bring it into play before March as I think there are some signs coming through your posts of 'I've had enough'. Are you sure you will have the desire to try in March at all if it goes on like this?
I just think this separation of some 30 miles would be a good opportunity to do a well prepared plan B. No contact, no support especially over the holidays may have some great effect.
Well no matter what you decide I hope it goes well and does work for you.

Yes, AussieWife, I can see where you're coming from. I am probably enabling and prolonging the A with OM by being attentive and available to her.
But as I've said before - she wants me around, which is better than hating me and never wanting to see me again. it gives me hope - and she even says this to me "at least we're talking and having good moments with each other."
The "After The Affair" book says that this is very important, that even while separated it's crucial to stay in each other's immediate circle of influence. And I thought that's what Plan A is about?

Plus I feel by staying around her she can see my positive changes and realize the good things we had, rather than me going "out of sight out of mind" and letting her run 100% to OM.

Honestly, I am starting to view her in more and more of a critical light, meaning I wonder what she thinks she's doing. I'm hoping that this is a temporary, somewhat insane grasping at ghosts, and that sooner than later she'll start to see the lunacy of it all. I think that if I maintain my straight path without letting her actions dissuade me, she'll have no choice but to say "hey what the heck am I doing, he seems to be getting it together and I'm not??"
And I hope that I don't get so jaded by her actions that I fall out of love with her and start thinking that I deserve better.

March isn't that far away. Six months is right with Plan A. March is a critical time for both of us logistically, too - her move back closer to me, her financial debt to OM is paid, her making decisions about where to live that may impact me or have to include me etc.etc., my financial "obligation" to her satisfied and logistical loose ends tied up...
And 3 months of somewhat-separation may be just what we need, especially when parts of that 3 months will be automatic NC because she's with OM (I'm sure). I'm going to try and disengage from her emotionally during that time without totally cutting myself off and see what happens.

VM,

I'm sorry if I'm such a pain in the a** <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> but I'd like for you to consider starting to get all you water fowl in a coaxial line [as 2Long is fond of saying] with regards to Plan B. I understand that March is still 3 months away but if you start emotionally preparing yourself now, you will be ready by the time March rolls around to implement Plan B without a hitch. How do you emotionally detach from your WW? By looking at her [as you mentioned earlier] as someone who suffering from a form of insanity and thus any words coming from her are to be met with total skepticism. It's not easy but if you start doing it right now, there is a good chance that you will be detached by the time Plan B rolls around and your emotions will prevented from sabotaging the goal of either saving your marriage or putting it out of its misery.

TMCM

well VM I surely hope it works.

I dont think you are doing anything incorrectly mind, its just that I doubt the effect of these actions on your WW.
I think you are closing your eyes a bit to the reality and hoping for the best. ( Don't we all)

You see there is no doubt she is in the fog of the relationship with OM, many of her statements to you that you have written are classic fog talk.
She wants you around to ans the EN's the OM cannot provide. Thats what plan B will do in this case, force the OM to meet ALL her needs because you are not providing any.

Most fail and have little or no interest in trying too hard from what I have seen. What he wants is the pleasure but none of the reposnsibility. So the A fails, it is hoped.

But if he did, then your M may not be recoverable after all IF she wants to stay with him.

Wish I had a magic ball for you VM to see what will work, wouldn't it be so much easier?

VnusMars said:
-------------------------------------------------

I am truly convinced (sometimes more than others) that there is only a VERY small part of her that is thinking "see where this goes" where OM is concerned. I don't think she's interested in pursuing a long-term, full-blown romance with him, and I have LOTS of evidence to support that. If she does have those feelings of "what if" then she is VERY good at hiding them and lying through her teeth and eyes about them to me.
------------------------------------------------
You misunderstand me. I was saying the exact same thing that you are saying here. I think she is NOT interested in a full-blown romance with this man. She is keeping him around until she's sure you and she can rebuild YOUR relationship. She wants YOU. She doesn't trust you. Simple as that.

Okay, maybe she's the WW now, but you have to take some credit for that. I know you have and are working on yourself, but don't let anyone negate what your WW is trying to deal with. You've lied and/or neglected to tell the whole truth to her even very recently. Don't expect her to just be able to forget that. She wants to believe that you're really working on yourself. She just needs more time and more proof.

Anyway, stop worrying about WW and OM. Worry about yourself and why you were a serial cheater to begin with.

JMHO - Feel free to tell me how wrong I am.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Violet

SJVIOLET:
Ahhh, yes I was misunderstanding you. Sorry.

I know she loves me and the perfect outcome to her would be to get back together with a new me, a me that doesn't cheat or lie, that doesn't need the validation, that is faithful to her, and she actually BELIEVES it. It will take lots of work and time to get there, but at least I think we share that common hope.

You're right, I believe she doesn't want a full romance with him...
There was a time when she was falling in love with him, she was going to move to the East Coast to be with him, maybe have his baby, there was no chance we were getting back together, she was going to file DV papers, etc.etc.etc.

But she tried and tried and couldn't do it, she couldn't hate me nor could she fall in love with him.
She finally broke down and admitted this to me on Election Day (will never forget the sight of sitting in a bar during happy hour watching the early returns while she cried and said she still is in love with me and isn't with him...burned forever in my brain!)


And this ties into what AussiesWife said:
She wants you around to ans the EN's the OM cannot provide. Thats what plan B will do in this case, force the OM to meet ALL her needs because you are not providing any.

Most fail and have little or no interest in trying too hard from what I have seen. What he wants is the pleasure but none of the reposnsibility. So the A fails, it is hoped.

But if he did, then your M may not be recoverable after all IF she wants to stay with him.
You're right, this is a risk I will have to take.

I do believe he's not as supportive and understanding and caring as even I can be, the times she's complained of him to me it usually has to do with emotional immaturity, unreasonable demands, childish behavior - he is 29 y.o. but hasn't had much experience with relationships, let alone a L.D. affair with a married-but-separated, jaded and suspicious woman who is as tough and fiery as my W can be!! (one of the reasons we get along so well at all, I'm one of the few guys that's been able to handle her LOL)

So yes, he would probably fail in the "providing 100% of EN" department. Especially since he's so far away geographically.
I can tell that she doesn't feel the connection with him that she felt with me, that he isn't her ideal man, that the R isn't necessarily going anywhere - she's said this to me point-blank, I feel it, I see it, I hear it from other sources than her, and I even think HE is starting to wonder if this is a good thing. The guy spends $400/month on plane tickets, wouldn't he want it to be progressing further and faster than it is?

I'm sure the lack of EN from OM, the EN that I currently provide, is the main reason I am still around and she still relies on me so much.

Could I yank that away from her without her lashing back at me with "see you don't really want me back" and "you just want to go be a slut, you got impatient waiting for me and are sick of being celibate and chaste" and "you're only looking out for yourself, you really are a narcissist"...hard to say. I know those would be her initial reactions.

The part of me that thinks this is a TEST, a game of chicken and whoever caves first is the loser...doesn't want to go Plan B at all. I think to her, the longer I stay on this path of wanting her back and loving her and not fretting over OM to her, the more sincere I will seem and the more respect and trust she will regain.

But...can I wait much longer, can I put up with the pain of that test?? We shall see. I'm willing to go Plan B mostly because a big part of me thinks it may not be necessary.


TMCM:
You're right, I am already beginning to emotionally prepare myself for the possibility of Plan B. I have fewer episodes of worry and fear, I'm less clingy and needy than I was, and I'm able to look at her and see a wonderful woman whom I love but is also seriously #$%&ed up and doing some ridiculous things.
That's been a scary realization - that this woman I thought was so perfect and wonderful is capable of such idiocy. I know she feels the same way about me, so I can see and feel a lot of her fear and disgust.


As an aside - we've been emailing all day, and one conversation went down the path of "wonder what it would take to buy a house together" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

One thing I can take comfort in:
My IC and her IC, being good friends and colleagues and having the authorization to talk about us, are both concerned about OM and what she's telling her IC and what she really wants. I think her IC is going to hammer at her more on that subject.
Since the IC's job is to enable the patient to reach their goals, whatever they are, if she expresses any desire to be back with me and less-than-glowing praise for the R with OM, he will probably give her the "then what the he11 are you doing?" speech. The only way he can encourage the A with OM is if she says "I never want VM back and I want to pursue this R with OM and I need to heal first." Which is what she's been telling him, and it's a lie, according to what she's told me.

Both IC's have recommended a 4-way talk at a future date to hammer out these details. I would LOVE to talk to her IC and make sure he knows that it's not as black & white as she may be making it out to be.

<small>[ December 03, 2004, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

I'm replying to myself partly to BUMP this thread and also to add some interesting new info...info for which I'd like a bit of advice.

BS/WW TheWifeOfVnusMars and I have seen each other last night for drinks and then most of the day today - she came over to do laundry (living in a hotel with Mom until Mom's house is done) and have lunch, and came to this part of town to go house shopping.

She's very serious about wanting to buy a house, and preferably be in it in the March timeframe I mentioned above.
(To catch you up: March is the month she plans to move back to my part of town and get her own place, it's also when her $4000 debt to OM will be paid off, and it's kinda sorta my deadline date for a possible Plan B or re-evaluation of where we are since it will be 6 months since I went into Plan A)

Anyway, alot of the discussion today had to do with "if I can't qualify on my own we can qualify together."
I make $10k a year more than her, and our credit is about the same.

Now - this would be a first home for BOTH of us. We've always rented, always being fairly transient and flexible, but now we both feel like this is our home and we want to stay.
So this is a HUGE step for both of us individually.
I would like to believe it's a good sign for our future together, too.

Granted, the idea of co-signing with my W on a brand new house when a) we're separated and I live with friends, b) she's in a R with OM and c) I'm still not sure whether or not we'll be together again....may not be the most logical thing, but...

I'm trying to see it as a sign that she thinks we WILL be together again.
It doesn't necessarily mean I will LIVE there right away - she hasn't come right out and said this, but she probably is thinking "all he has to do is sign and I can get a roommate to help with the rent"...but come on, does someone ask their FWS to sign on a 30-year loan if they have ANY intention of being without them someday?

Even if I move in, to one of the extra rooms, that would be a step in the right direction I think.

People sign for others all the time - parents, etc. - when they're not getting direct benefit out of the purchase - but for god's sake, the mental state she is in now I could very well be her STBXH, someone who may exit her life forever someday!
This seems to have some deeper ramifications than "I just need you for your income and credit so I can buy MY house." I feel like there is some emotional reason there.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it. Maybe I'm not.

Part of me sees a good sign in this, part of me realizes it could mean NOTHING emotional and be purely logistical. Hard to say.

She left to a friend's party a few hours ago, and before she left started a bit of a bad discussion about my A's and how I'm still sick and she's very unsure I will ever be well again. And, she talked on her phone to OM right in front of me for a few minutes, that was a new one (at least it's not like they have lovey-dovey conversations, so I think this might be part of the whole "you shouldn't worry about him" thing). But at least now when she has those emotional and distraught moments, she recovers pretty quickly and is almost more friendly and loving after them.


Any thoughts?
We're going to see the finance guy tomorrow.

VM

At this moment in time, your WW is a cake eater who wants to have the best of both worlds. She throws these crumbs at you to keep you interested and then when she feels sure that you've taken the bait, then she goes back to business as usual. I highly recommend that you DO NOT take on any long term obligations [like buying a house] with her until your WW ends her affair, sends a NC letter to the OM, and commits to an MB style of marital recovery plan.

TMCM