Hello All,
Short history on my situation is at end of post.

Fast forward to last night...

I tried to call WW, and figured out she was with OM. She finally answered phone at 11:15, and I delivered major LB's....
I'm almost to the point of giving up, I know my marriage is most likely OVER, so it was easy (albeit stupid!) to let my guard down.

I said "If you want a divorce, why haven't you asked for one?" She turned on her mini-rage/sarcastic/nasty personality and said "Oh, ok, is that what I should be doing?!? OK, fine! Get it over with blah blah blah."

We had a very "spirited" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> conversation going, and then I couldn't stop myself from reading the following to her (written by a FWW, which I had just read here on MB forum a few minutes prior):


"About half way during the affair I knew I was in way over my head and I wanted out. It was so addicting though, that I couldn't bring myself to totally end it. I was pretty miserable during the affair, except when I was around the other man. The guilt consumed me though - all the time."

"Once I started thinking beyond the fantasy, exposing in my mind the ugliness that it really was, then I was able start recovery."

"Just as your wife said to you, I also felt that I was unhappy in my marriage prior to the affair. Looking back, I think I said and felt that in order to justify the affair. Looking back though, I was happy."

After I finished reading that, she went DEAD SILENT for a solid 30 seconds.

Conversation started again, then ended with her hanging up on me.
I know I screwed up.

Anyway, I got the following email from her this morning. (I don't think she would've sent me anything at all, except that she was sort of replying to a nice, benign email I'd sent yesterday.)

The reason I left was to be on my own and yes, escape from you and the whole “what are we going to try now” thing. I really did not want to try…. I had given up and checked out several years before I walked out the door. I am sorry that I did not express myself to you about how poorly I felt about us… I just crawled into my shell and got deeper into my resentment for you and the situation I was in. This was pre-OtherMan'sName. The worst thing for me is knowing that you did not feel the same way and I did not give you a chance to discuss when discussion may have helped. That’s where my guilt is and sadness for making you feel that way.

I am sorry for both of us.

I must leave for work now…

If I took her email at face value, I'd have ZERO hope for my marriage.
Does anyone have any advice for me?!?!?
Should I consider it a done deal, or is her email just as much fog-babble as anything else?
How should I reply to her email?
(I wanted to say "sounds like you've been reading the affair manual!" and that's it.)

Thank you for your help!!

----------------------------------
Condensed history of my situation:

LBS (me) 44
WW 41
Married 21 years, together 24 years, no children
EA for the last year, PA started 2/04
MLC? Depression?
Confronted 3/04
They work together; she promised "business contact only" (my mistake to let that happen)
4/04: WW said to me "You're the most wonderful man in the world."
4/04: WW said to me "I think we're gonna be ok "
5/04: WW said to me "I love you, I really love you."

6/04: WW said to me "I love you but I'm not in love with you" etc.
6/04: WW said to me "I think I need to leave."

Ambivalence/rage/hatred/lying/etc 6/04-9/04
Joint counseling 7/04-8/04, WW lied to MC/me the whole time, insisting A was over
WW moved out: 10/4/04
Day before she left, WW told me: "I'm saying to myself 'why am I doing this?'"
On moving day, WW told me: "I can't work on the relationship when I'm here."
and "I love you like I should love a husband I've been with for 24 years."
and "I wish you just told me to find an apartment for a month a long time ago."

Over the last 2-3 weeks, in several different conversations, she has said the following:
In tears: "I'm just not happy."
"Nothing I've done can be undone."
"Once you leave you can never go back, right?"
In response to my question "Have you thought about talking with someone to help you sort things out?"
she replied: "Yes, I've thought about it." (said this a couple times)

Current situation: the fact that she's moved out (let alone the A) is still a secret at work (yes, there's been some exposure, but so far no impact). Said she's embarrassed about it (having moved), and doesn't want anyone to know.

You expect her to change but you cannot change. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
You have to stop all lovebusters, regardless of what happens.

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

mini-rage/sarcastic/nasty personality

Sounds familiar, I am starting to see it coming before I get it with it and prepare myself for the assult.

This all sounds like FOG talk to me. This all sounds like self loathing on the part of WW.

My gut tells me that your WW will be able to come around if she could just stop seeing OM.

I would suggest not mentioning anything that might push her to do something.

My WW took off her rings only after I said something.

My WW only spoke of divorce after I brought it up.

As near as I can tell our WW need for us to be supermen and prove to them our deep and undying love for them. Only after they believe in us again will they run back to us.

Every time me and WW have a fight and her mini-rage/sarcastic/nasty personality comes out we end up smiling as long as I don't check out of the conversation. I stay in the fire and then I get a hug and a kiss as a reward.

Sounds to me like your WW loves you very much. I could be wrong but that is what is sounds like to me.

Good luck man!

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: greergan ]</small>

maybe it is just nieve KMEJ thinking here, but I did not see the e-mail as her wanting to end things, but rather an apology for what happened last night, and for what she has been doing to the marriage. am I missing something?

tqt,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does anyone have any advice for me?!?!? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, stop trying to change what your WW thinks, says and does. Stop trying to win YOUR emotional debate. You can not win( the debate, not the M) and the sooner you believe that core principle in MB, the better and more desirous a husband you will portray.

I refer so many people to this URL. It gave( and still gives) me a lot of strength but most importantly lets me treat MYSELF with respect.

http://www.troubledwith.com/Web/gro...amp;sssct=Other%20Things%20to%20Consider

Read it several times. I have read it at least 20-30 times and just like a well written novel, I still find "pearls" of wisdom throughout.

Thanks everyone.

You expect her to change but you cannot change.
Well, I can change (and have quite a bit), but I screwed-up this time.


You have to stop all lovebusters, regardless of what happens.
Well said Chris...
BUT, I do have a hard time not being angry when at that very moment, my wife is doing who-knows-what/where with another guy.
Just a little personality quirk of mine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />


This all sounds like FOG talk to me. This all sounds like self loathing on the part of WW.
There is a lot of self-loathing (with WW), but she is VERY good at disguising it and/or projecting it (at me).


My gut tells me that your WW will be able to come around if she could just stop seeing OM.
I would suggest not mentioning anything that might push her to do something.
Agreed, on both counts.


Sounds to me like your WW loves you very much. I could be wrong but that is what is sounds like to me.
greergan, that's the nicest thing I've heard in a LONG time!



maybe it is just nieve KMEJ thinking here, but I did not see the e-mail as her wanting to end things, but rather an apology for what happened last night, and for what she has been doing to the marriage. am I missing something?
KMEJ, I don't know if you're missing anything. "I don't know" has been a big part of my life for about 10 months now. She says very little, and that's part of the reason I end up screwing things up -- she says nothing unless prodded and poked.


Yeah, stop trying to change what your WW thinks, says and does. Stop trying to win YOUR emotional debate. You can not win( the debate, not the M) and the sooner you believe that core principle in MB, the better and more desirous a husband you will portray.
Thanks Cymanca, I understand.

I refer so many people to this URL.
I have it queued up to read now -- thanks.

Alrighty Bucko, keep it up and she will NEVER come back. Are you Plan Aing AT ALL?

You are in a competition to win her back. You are competing against the OM. EVERYTIME you LB you have just won BIG points for him in her eyes.
STOP making HIM look good!!! The A is thriving on this chaos you are creating...the thing WW and OM have in common is working agains the M and you. IF you don't give them something to hate, then they have to find things in common...it doesn't happen.

WHY would she come back to someone who is going to preach to her from the MB webpage, whack her with the "I'm right you're wrong" baseball bat, and send out the "I want to know where you're at or what you're doing" hounds so you can yell about it?

(Heavy sarcasm alert) Yep, sounds like big fun to me, and a M I'd want to return to.

Time to start bucking up and making this a M and H she will CHOOSE to come back to, not out of guilt or shame or obligation, but out of all the EN's you are fulfilling. Your WW is not the punching bag you need right now...vent here, but be calm and loving to her...

You want her gone? Keep it up!

(thread-jack-in-progress)
StillHereMakingIt, thanks very much for your point of view. I needed to hear it /again/. Starting to get frustrated with myself for not listening better.

<strong>
Sounds to me like your WW loves you very much. I could be wrong but that is what is sounds like to me.
greergan, that's the nicest thing I've heard in a LONG time!</strong>

Well, what you said rings true for me and my situation and every day my wife makes me feel that she has never stopped loving me and that she is even falling back in-love with me.

That is until I drop a major LB...that happened this morning...while we were making up she told me that she felt like calling OM (been 3 days with no voice contact), I looked into her eyes and said "I know, I am sorry for what I said".
(/thread-jack-in-progress)

BTW: As for replying...I dunno what your wife's EN are...mine likes phone calls during the day to see how she is doing...Ima go do that now.

Good luck.

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: greergan ]</small>

Thanks greer,

I hope it helps.

I need to add the disclaimer that I was a MAJOR LBer throughout our entire M. I struggle with this EVERY day. And the words I type are words I am passing along that got typed TO me by some strong and wise folks. I was able to COMPLETELY change our M around by just changing my behavior.

greer,

Sounds like you're doing well.
WW and I have been separated for two months, her A is in full swing, so my opportunities to meet her EN's are limited. Yes, I know that means what I did last night has even worse ramifications.


Still,

If you read my post again, you'll see that I knew I screwed up big-time last night!
But you gave me some very good advice, and I appreciate it.

I need to add the disclaimer that I was a MAJOR LBer throughout our entire M. I struggle with this EVERY day. And the words I type are words I am passing along that got typed TO me by some strong and wise folks. I was able to COMPLETELY change our M around by just changing my behavior.

I guess I feel like nothing I've tried has made any difference, and I'm not sure how long I can keep this up. Hence the frustration level.
She's got the OM's attention pretty much full-time (I believe they live very close, but not together).
I'm convinced that Plan B would be the end of our marriage.
But... I can't figure out how to execute a decent Plan A at this point, either.

Well, neither of us have left the house so far even though we have both threatened it. (note to self: stop doing that).

In my efforts to make things "normal" again I have been delivering LBs left and right in the guise of "what about my needs" crap.

I really don't have much to offer you other than
"if it sounds like a duck....must be a duck" kinda stuff.

At the moment I am depressed since we did have a fight this morning...I am pretty sure she took OM's 2:30 phone call, maybe this is just a DJ i dunno. All I know is that I want a smoke reaaaaaaal bad because of what I think MIGHT have happened.

I know it is hard to keep the LBing to a minimum, been there done that, still doing that.

I wish there was some pill to turn off the compulssion to LB. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I feel for ya, I wish I knew something good to tell you about doing Plan A when she seems so far way. But remember that the 1/2 of Plan A that makes the other 1/2 of Plan A possible is....working on one's self.

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: greergan ]</small>

Here's an example of where I feel lost, when it comes to Plan A in my situation.

I want to call her and say:

"I'm sorry I was angry with you last night. It's just that when I know you're with (OM), it hurts like hell, and I took it out on you."

Is that a pro-Plan A or an anti-Plan A?

I apologize as soon as I can after LBing.

I would advise a change in your sentance though.

"when I know" unless she told you she was with OM then I would suggest saying "when I think"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tqt:
<strong> Here's an example of where I feel lost, when it comes to Plan A in my situation.

I want to call her and say:

"I'm sorry I was angry with you last night. It's just that when I know you're with (OM), it hurts like hell, and I took it out on you."

Is that a pro-Plan A or an anti-Plan A? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TQT,

If you heard someone say to another person: "I'm sorry I was angry with you last night. It is just when I know you are out in bad company, that it hurts like hell, and I took it out on you."

Does that sound right? What would you think of the person uttering those words?

Remember plan A is NOT about condoning bad conduct. It is about showing your good side and that means standing up for what is right, not apologizing for another's bad conduct.

JMHO,
L.

Hi L,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you heard someone say to another person: "I'm sorry I was angry with you last night. It is just when I know you are out in bad company, that it hurts like hell, and I took it out on you."

Does that sound right? What would you think of the person uttering those words?

Remember plan A is NOT about condoning bad conduct. It is about showing your good side and that means standing up for what is right, not apologizing for another's bad conduct.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want to make sure I understand.
What I wanted to do was apologize for my anger (a major LB in and of itself, right?), but NOT condone the bad conduct at the same time.

Help me out here -- I must have some sort of mental block on this... what am I missing?

tqt,

You don't have to apologize for being angry she was out with an OM. You s/b angry.

What physical actions did you do with you showed this anger? If you were abusive, you need to apologize for that.

Let her know she is not doing a good job of keeping the OM at bay. This is hurting you.

I don't recommend you apologize for being
angry.

Plan A is about you showing the good not the wimpy side of you.

L.

You don't have to apologize for being angry she was out with an OM. You s/b angry.

Let her know she is not doing a good job of keeping the OM at bay. This is hurting you.

I don't recommend you apologize for being angry.


Ahhh, then I did understand what you meant. I feel better now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Maybe it's just me, but after going thru this STUFF for so long, one can become paranoid about showing what, in my estimation, are perfectly normal, justified emotions -- in this case, anger.


What physical actions did you do with you showed this anger? If you were abusive, you need to apologize for that.

This was a phone conversation. No physical abuse in this marriage, regardless.


Let her know she is not doing a good job of keeping the OM at bay. This is hurting you.
That's a tough one... when she maintains that leaving me has nothing to do with the OM.


Plan A is about you showing the good not the wimpy side of you.
Actually, I think that's one of my finer qualities -- good but not wimpy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks L. !