Hey, Dewt! Okay, I am back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I have been trying to decide whether to share my thoughts and just let you know how I see things from what you have said in your posts. And more importantly, whether it was because it would make ME feel better or perhaps help you. I waffled yesterday and took out everything in my post to you.

But, after dithering and reading soulloss's posts, I think it might help to hear how a stranger feels about your sitch. BTW, I did not know anything about your sitch until you started hear last month. So, I am going to summarize.

So, read at your own risk. Call me MS Lemon/ Ms Call-it-like-I see-it/No-BS.

Nearly every post, you say something to the effect that you are trying, and WW is not. THEN you say, you say something along the lines of </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Unless WW steps up to the plate, followed by ACTION, we haven't a hope in heck of making this work. I really don't know how long I can keep my doors open for her. I'm sick and tired of working my a$$ off and being treated like a worthless, second-rate schlep. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whoah! That just makes me want to smack you hard with that 2x4! WHy, you might ask? In the first place, she might be waiting to see if you can CHANGE the way you react. WALK THE WALK, man. NOt just the talk! You broke her trust. Maybe 5 years ago, the first time. But every time you dated, you did it again. AND, for the sitch that WW got into, are you taking any responsibility for your part in that sitch? (Only got that part after reading WW's posts.)

THen there is this entire thread. Talking about quietly looking for another place? Where is the POJA in that? How the he!! can she EVER learn to trust you, when you say things like that. Plus, even though she promised that she wouldn't look at this thread, you must know that she will find out about it. Either by reading or by looking at it herself. SO, then the question becomes, how is that being open and honest and trustworthy? IMHO, It looks like a flippin' control and emotional blackmail thing to me. If you don't do what I want I am going to stop trying and take off.

Call me crazy or way out in left field, but I know how I would react. I would not try at all. Whether I was the WS or the BS. And Dylan is BOTH. Until this A happened, Dylan was only the BS, so SHE had to get past one heck of a lot. You are only starting to get a clue as to how much that hurts. Try 5 years of that!

You say you don't see what you are doing that is controlling or LBs. Well, this is what I see.

I am not saying that WW doesn't have to accept responsibility for her part. But, I know how long it takes to recover from an A. And for you to suggest/encourage a possible relationship with someone else and then get POed because you didn't have the CONTROL over it that you thought you did. And then blame WW because she got sucked in, that is a huge red flag. Have you considered that her intitial reason for attempting that R was to save her marriage and to please you? And if that was the case, how is blaming her fixing anything. I am not even trying to judge why you thought a 3way would help your M. Sheesh! You have been trying for 5 years to get your M back on track. Yet, it seems you are struggling with the very basic concept, that a good M is between 2 people. (And their kids) NEVER an outside person.

So, I agree with Loving Boundaries when they said they want to pounce all over your posts. And Starfish is way more diplomatic and non-judgemental than I am. I admire that. But, IMHO, sometimes a BIG smack of reality without the niceties is what might be needed.

So, please know that I don't mean to offend. I really hope my POV can help you see what a stranger to you might see/hear in your posts.

... was bearable and even enjoyable when I had a time limit in place, but now that I'd given it up I was having a really tough time. Because I was back to .... no end in sight.

Hi Dewt. I'm sure K will be along eventually. In the meantime, I really like what Star and some of the others have said, so I'm just going to pull out this one quote from your post.

Dude, that's RENTER THINK up there in your post. It's all this stuff: "I'll work at it only if you do. I've got a time limit. I'll do this if you do that. I expect you to work on this marriage even if you're not enthusiastic about it, and I'm not going to work on it until you do."

RENTER THINK will destroy your marriage.

So will FREELOADER THINK, which is "This isn't working for me so I'm going to go buy some property/sleep with someone else/do whatever else it is that makes me feel like I'm getting on with me life."

Abjure these thinking types, Dewt. You are a married man. Forget divorce. Forget Plan A. Her affair is OVER. You are no longer in a place where you have any grounds for leaving. None, zero, zip.

You're married to her, man. That means permanently. So yeah, you ARE faced with forever, here, with living this way for the rest of your life.

Better start figuring yourself out and how to make it work, because it's not going to go away.

Your desire to run away -- to fly away to another lover another home another life another love... to run and fly away -- let's simplify that. How's this work for ya?

"I'm frightened that you'll hurt me, and when I'm frightened, I want to run away."

You do not have to hide your fear. You actually have a responsibility to share it with her. And a resonspibility to be a married man, Dewt. Stand up tall and start doing that. If you're a married man, what does it look like?

I hardly ever post but what the hey...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Like for example, after my affair, 5 yrs ago, I had to prove myself worthy and make all kinds of changes... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed (Dewt), and forgave (Dewt) of the debt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> now, after her affair, it's still me who has to prove myself worthy and make all kinds of changes... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants(Dylan), which owed him an hundred pence: (changes, hope, love) and he laid hands on him (Dylan), and took (Dylan) by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest!"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not that those changes don't need to be made... but still. It doesn't seem fair that I'm the bad guy no matter what. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But you are the bad guy no matter what. Talk to Jesus if you have a problem with that.
The evil does not change. Every time you pray and walk with God evil steps back and waits for another time, then, when you are away from God, tries harder then ever to get you to:
be selfish
make demands
go on dates/adultrey
look at porn
get divorced
be the bad guy
etc.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but I seem to be having a really rough spot as all kinds of thoughts keep flooding my scared, hurting brain. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Evil....
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm stuck. Hurting. Trapped in my own cycle of negative, hopeless thoughts </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Evil....
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Any advice out there on how to quiet my hurt?
How to get my patience and perseverance back on track? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Take it for what its worth...

Every time you pray and walk with God evil steps back and waits for another time, be with God.
Evil will never give up, ever. But the more time you spend with God the less chances it has to take hold of you.
You really are not the one who can fix this marriage so you should stop trying. Fix your relationship with our Jealous GOD who seeks a relationship with you first. Once you work for that the pain and hurt you are feeling will fade and evil will be kept at bay.

Sorry if this is over the top, it helps me sooo much I can't express it in words.
Edited to add..
The biblical quotes are from your sig link <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ December 04, 2004, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: Julius ]</small>

I just want to clear one thing up. This thread was started as a vent. I had all these feelings welling up in me and I had to get them out. What I wrote is not an indication of how I'm living my daily life. Also, I've calmed down quite a bit and I really appreciate you all (and Dylan) for helping me with that. That being said, these issues haven't dissappeared, so I could still use your help and insight...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">posted by Starfish:
<strong>Let's talk about what Plan A is and isn't because it's so misunderstood. It is a strategy to end affairs, and since dylan's affair is over...the only parts of it that apply now are filling needs and not love busting. I'm assuming that's what you're doing. But while Plan A doesn't expect reciprocity...marriage building (which includes filling needs and no love busting) has expectations that those actions will be returned.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok. That's an important distinction. But it raises the question... where exactly am I then? The affair is over but there is no commitment to marriage building either. So what do I do?

I understand about the trust concept. And I see oh-so-very clearly where I've failed in that department.

So now we have two people who have betrayed each other. Then, after betraying each other, they both did it some more. Now, there's no trust on either side. I don't say that bitterly, only as fact.

Which begs the question. What are we (Dylan and I) going to do with that? To be sure we each have our own personal issues, but we also have some very real issues as a couple. Like are we working towards being one or not, for example?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">posted by Starfish:
<strong>It takes YEARS to build trust...
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, and 3 times as long to build it back after it's been wrecked.

All I wanna know is, is that the plan? That's all I want right now, more than anything... is to know what to do.

I have enough faith in her to know that I could trust her again. I realize that her feelings in that regard are in question.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">posted by Starfish:
<strong>From where I'm sitting...this is where your relationship has floundered. You work very hard for a given amount of time, and then become angry, weak, or unhappy...and all the hard work goes down the drain. Dating other women is a good example of how that manifests it self.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dating is an excellent example of how that manifests itself. However, I'd like to point out that I've worked very hard for a given amount, pre-planned amount of time and find myself quite hopeless in my frustration and I'm not dating, sleeping around. I'm here venting and asking for some help with my perception.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">posted by Starfish:
<strong>How have you done with the porn issue? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Porn issue? I didn't realize there was one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">posted by Starfish:
<strong>How long are you able to communicate respectfully without losing your cool?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never lose my cool. Ok, once I threw a pillow at the couch. Really really hard. And anti-depressants turned me into an as$^o!3 and I put my fist through a wall. I immediately stopped the meds. Dylan will attest to the fact I'm a gentle and kind man.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">posted by Starfish:
<strong>Your focus has always been on dylan...and while I'm not saying she has no culpability...it is not in your power to change her. It is in your power to change YOU. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not really. Most of my posts focus on Dylan. And that's largely because I post them when I feel I'm facing something I can't bear alone. I don't post to toot my own horn.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">posted by Starfish:
<strong>And each time you prove that you are incapable of sustained dedication to healthy marital patterns....you reinforce not your effort...but your inability to permanently address the issues that are tearing your marriage apart.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">posted by Starfish:
<strong>...but there was a point in time where what was done to me was not nearly as important as what I wanted my future to be like. I couldn't blame my lot in life on the past any longer if I intended to be a healthy/happy person.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I put my sig line up because it puts into perspective how I feel about what was 'done to me'. It's what's being 'done to me' now that's got me so frustrated. This 'limbo' cuts me in places so deep it'd be a 20page thread just to explain it. If I knew what the plan was, it would be easier to deal with it and still make good decisions.

Thanks for posting. I'm gonna go be Dad for awhile and come back later.

<small>[ December 04, 2004, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: dewt ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> How does getting sex from a woman contribute to your future growth and development?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, it doesn't. It's more like a drug to mask the pain. We all know how well that works. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pepperband:
<strong>YIKES Dewt.... you are probably less attractive as a long term relationship risk with that definition of "getting on with my life"...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These lapses of mine occur when I have lost hope for any long term relationship with Dylan. The two times I started dating were both following re-assurances from Dylan that we were 'done'. Wait... don't jump... I'm NOT justifying. Those were stupid, immature, reptilian decisions I made and no reason really justifies... I'm looking very hard at my patterns, learning from them (slowly) and trying to change them.

Hence this thread instead of a date.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pepperband:
<strong>When you do and say things like this ... it's like you erase all your prior efforts to demonstrate maturity.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. I realize this. Please understand that I'm not just trying to demonstrate maturity. I'm trying to develop it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pepperband:
<strong>Deeply religious men who live their lives ~applying~ Bible verses to their daily choices do not invite women into their bed for casual sex.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Er... we won't go there, but I get your point. In fact, one of the reasons I've turned to God is that I realize I need divine intervention when it comes to me making choices. I'm not just trying to be funny. I'm also quite serious.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pepperband:
<strong>What "moving on with my life" ... can you demonstrate NOW for Dylan that does not pose a threat to her??? What "moving on with my life" would NOT represent a step backwards into your old habits of short-term gratification?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please explain this further... I don't get it. When I talk about 'moving on with my life' I'm talking about accepting that there's just been too much damage done and letting go, giving up. I'm talking about the certainty that even if I succeed in making these changes and Dylan and I stay together, we will be back where we were before this whole ordeal. That's unacceptable.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Pepperband:
<strong>Dewt.... you need to stop reverting to your old reptilian habits when you feel scared and/or hurt. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. I agree enthusiastically. And I am pre-empting the reverting by trying to address these urgent emotional issues before they Fog my thinking.

This is good, right?

J

dewt,

What is your purpose for this thread? What do you need from it? Are you being honest with us about what that is? Are you getting what you want and/or need?

I have thought about my reply to you on and off all day. Now I'm not sure that what I thought you were asking for people's perspectives on is really what you want(ed).

Let me know, ok? If it's something I can help with, I'll post back. If you're just needing support and pats on the back for posting instead of running out to boink someone, that's not what I'm willing to do. If you want my perspective and support in dealing with your unresolved issues that keep leading you to want to run out and boink someone, I'd be happy to try to help.

I'll check back in a while for your answer.

I might not be able to come back tonight so I'm going to mention this now.

I read that you want a PLAN of some kind. Last I knew, you POJA'd a plan with Dylan that had her move in with you and mini, and you BOTH work on YOUR OWN issues, and after you BOTH made the individual progress you needed to make then you both would decide if it was time to start rebuilding efforts. Do I remember correctly?

In your opinion, have YOU held up YOUR end of the POJA yet?

dewt, what happens when Dylan is finished with her foundational individual work? A lot of that depends on whether or not YOU have done YOUR foundational individual work.

Time to make a decision dewt. Are you going to learn BS 101? You would have to fix YOUR 50% of the state of the marriage issues that were there prior to the start of the A--the A that you and Dylan AGREED she could start.

What's it gonna be dewt? The choice is yours.

FA-A, I appreciate you being blunt with me. Thank you. I do not offend easily, but feel that there a few things I do want to clarify...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by fightingalone-again:
<strong>Nearly every post, you say something to the effect that you are trying, and WW is not.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which is how I feel. I feel like she's making no efforts to help me sort this out. I feel like she's in no rush, that the current situation could continue indefinitely and that would be just fine with her. Obviously I know that is not entirely the fact of the matter, but based on what I've seen, I don't know what else to feel.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fightingalone-again:
<strong>THEN you say, you say something along the lines of </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Unless WW steps up to the plate, followed by ACTION, we haven't a hope in heck of making this work.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And this is the truth. It may only take one spouse to save a marriage from the brink of disaster, but it definitely take TWO to rebuild it. No matter how mature or wise I become or act, rebuilding this marriage alone is beyond my capabilities.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fightingalone-again:
<strong>Whoah! That just makes me want to smack you hard with that 2x4! WHy, you might ask? In the first place, she might be waiting to see if you can CHANGE the way you react.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. She's waiting... she's said so herself. And it makes me resentful because 5yrs ago, I jumped whole heartedly into recovery and trying to become the spouse she wanted. And I thought that if I made the changes she asked for, that she, in turn might begin to want to meet my ENs. Over 5 yrs that didn't happen. Have I acheived perfection? Heck no. Not by a long shot, but there HAS been progress. Some progress on her side would have been encouraging and perhaps helped me change quicker and in more of the ways she was hoping for.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fightingalone-again:
<strong>WALK THE WALK, man. NOt just the talk! You broke her trust. Maybe 5 years ago, the first time. But every time you dated, you did it again.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, well, I'm trying very hard to walk the walk. And learning to try to address things before they affect my behaviour in disastrous ways.

And yes I broke her trust 5 yrs ago. And although I agree and admit that dating was a foolish choice, I fail to see how that broke her trust. How can you dump someone and expect them to remain faithful? Hurt her by dating? Yes, this I can accept. Disappointed her with my idiotic displays of decision making? Oh yeah. Did I act like a self serving, brainless fool? You bet. But, broke her trust? This I have a hard time accepting. I'm not against accepting it, I'm just having a hard time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fightingalone-again:
<strong>AND, for the sitch that WW got into, are you taking any responsibility for your part in that sitch? (Only got that part after reading WW's posts.)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I take responsibility for my part in that. Over the years, I made my wife feel unimportant. I failed to meet her most important ENs. When she came to me saying that she wanted to explore this weird and fun thing with our roommate, I said ok. To be honest, I was so desperate for something in our marriage that for a brief period it seemed like an 'ok' thing.

Please do not for a moment think that I get all hyped up about threesomes. I knew full well that OP was a lesbian, and I know what the word lesbian means. At no point did I ever really expect to be invited to join them. Did I hope for it? Yes, but moreso because I wanted to be a part of my Wife's sex life than because I wanted a kinky experience.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fightingalone-again:
<strong>THen there is this entire thread. Talking about quietly looking for another place? Where is the POJA in that? How the he!! can she EVER learn to trust you, when you say things like that.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you've misunderstood. Dylan has even viewed the place with me; this is no secret. I have no secrets. Also, I didn't say that I was going to leave her. I thought it. And posted that I thought it. Dylan herself will attest that she's 'packed her bags' a thousand times in her mind. It was an expression of my frustration, not a decision that I've already made behind her back.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fightingalone-again:
<strong>Plus, even though she promised that she wouldn't look at this thread, you must know that she will find out about it. Either by reading or by looking at it herself. SO, then the question becomes, how is that being open and honest and trustworthy?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, here's a boiling pot of water. Don't put your finger in it...

One of the reasons we have it set up this way is so that these posts ARE viewable. I don't want to hide anything. If Dylan wants a sneak peak into my unfiltered thoughts, I would hope she's wise enough to read them with that in mind. In fact, I wish she herself would do this instead of posting and emailing privately and denying me even the choice. I feel that by doing it this way, I'm able to be both open and honest.

I was planning on deleting my original posts. I warned Dylan in advance (POJA) of my plans and she asked me why. I told her because they were kind of harsh and I didn't want her to read it and get upset. She asked me not to delete. Said that she still hadn't looked but one day might want to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fightingalone-again:
<strong>IMHO, It looks like a flippin' control and emotional blackmail thing to me. If you don't do what I want I am going to stop trying and take off</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">.

Gaaaaaaaaaahhhhh.... here we go with the control thing again!!! (I'm smiling ruefully as I write this) You have to explain this to me because I don't get it.

To me, it's boundries. At what point is it acceptable to throw in the towel? Am I expected to do my best to meet her ENs and prove myself worthy indefinitely without any efforts or action on her part? I understand the idea of establishing a pattern of good behaviour in an attempt to show your wayward, but clearly that is not an indefinite scenario. It can't go on forever.

If my boss stopped paying me, I'd eventually have to say, "If you aren't going to pay me, I can't work for you anymore." No-one could call that controlling behaviour.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fightingalone-again:
<strong>Call me crazy or way out in left field, but I know how I would react. I would not try at all.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">After reading my replies, do you still feel that way? If so, please say so and help me understand why... What if you knew that by trying, you'd be encouraging your H and helping him try too. Don't you see that a good feedback loop can be created?

If you would not try at all, how do you think that might affect your husband? How long would he have to do all the work while you stood back and watched with the measuring stick in hand, not trying, before you decided you might get out of the judgement seat and become a participant?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fightingalone-again:
<strong>... Until this A happened, Dylan was only the BS, so SHE had to get past one heck of a lot. You are only starting to get a clue as to how much that hurts. Try 5 years of that!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've read and re-read this bitke 5 times, trying not to take offence. I'm not succeeding. I think I have more than a clue when it comes to knowing how much something hurts.

1. 5 years ago, I horribly betrayed my Beloved. I yanked her world out from under her and brutally threw uncertainty into her life where none had existed before. I witnessed it. I saw way more than she even thinks I saw. That I had done this to her, my true soulmate, almost killed me. I knew what I'd done and I knew torment.

2. One year ago my W had an affair. She wanted to try something. I trusted that no harm would come of the experience. She promised to be open with me, and honest with me and instead made me feel like and intruder in my own marriage. I actually got in shi... trouble for interupting them! Please do not think that I do not know pain.

3. 11 months ago, my W made it clear to me that she did not want to work things out. That left me a single father for 6 months to a very very VERY hurt, confused, and terrified 7 yr old. I rocked him to sleep when he cried for his Mama, not knowing what to tell him because I was just as hurt, confused and terrified but the person who was supposed to be rocking me was rocking someone else.

So yeah, I think I know about pain. But guess what. I'm not up for five years of that. These are things I experienced. They are not the present. And, if I have any say in the matter, they are not the future. Why carry that for 5 more years, letting it fester and blossom? Why let it consume me with so much bitterness that it colors my very perception of life. Please don't think me callous, but quite frankly, I choose otherwise.

I mean if this is really all about teaching me a lesson, can I just say that I get the point?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fightingalone-again:
<strong>I am not saying that WW doesn't have to accept responsibility for her part. But, I know how long it takes to recover from an A. And for you to suggest/encourage a possible relationship with someone else and then get POed because you didn't have the CONTROL over it that you thought you did. And then blame WW because she got sucked in, that is a huge red flag.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you are refering to the OP... I did not suggest/encourage this affair. My W came to me with it. At first I said ok and we laid out ground rules. A twisted sort of POJA concocted by two fogged out minds... But a POJA nonetheless that included honesty and openness and respect for peoples feelings. Obviously this is not what happened, but I hardly think that my objection to this qualifies me as a control freak. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> And I didn't get PO'd, I got hurt then ultimately betrayed. There's a difference.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fightingalone-again:
<strong>Have you considered that her intitial reason for attempting that R was to save her marriage and to please you? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope. Not even for a second.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fightingalone-again:
<strong>And if that was the case, how is blaming her fixing anything.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not blaming her for anything other than fence sitting and failing to contribute financially to the household when we so very much need it. And I don't even think that qualifies as blame.

This has been a recurrent theme. The blame thing. Please someone point out where I come across as blaming her so that I can inspect my perceptions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fightingalone-again:
<strong>I am not even trying to judge why you thought a 3way would help your M. Sheesh!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">S'okay. You'd be wasting your time. I did not think a 3way would be helping my marriage. I did not even think a three way was going to happen. There were times (brief) that I hoped it would, but that was for reasons more complicated than the seeking of a cheap thrill.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fightingalone-again:
<strong>You have been trying for 5 years to get your M back on track. Yet, it seems you are struggling with the very basic concept, that a good M is between 2 people. (And their kids) NEVER an outside person.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope. I am not struggling with this fact. Not in the least. I know that I want that person to be Dylan. But I'm afraid that hoping for something that will never happen no matter what I do will keep me in limbo forever. THAT's what I'm struggling with.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fightingalone-again:
<strong>But, IMHO, sometimes a BIG smack of reality without the niceties is what might be needed.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can take it any way you want to dish it. If there's a valid point in there, I'll do my best to find it no matter what the tone. It's why I post here. For feedback and differing perspectives. Ya can't give a guy what he asks for then apologize. But if I think you're off the mark I have to say so. And if you disagree with me then, you have to say so.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">fightingalone-again:
<strong>So, please know that I don't mean to offend. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you offend me, I'll let ya know. Oh wait, I think I just did up there... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for not holding back.

J

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LovingBoundaries:
<strong>What is your purpose for this thread? What do you need from it? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I needed to get my feelings out.

I wanted a show of support and guidance in how to deal with the situation that is causing these feelings.

I need to talk about it and get feedback.

Mostly I wanted to interupt a pattern before it even got started.

If it turns out that a plan can be planned I would be very happy. I like plans. I like knowing where I'm going. Knowing where I'm going helps keep me on the track that goes there.

I can't post any more tonight though. Way too tired.

J

<small>[ December 04, 2004, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: dewt ]</small>

Dewt,

Thought I'd pop in with my 2 cents. Want it? LOL!!!! Ok, I'll give you a discount and let you have it for free! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

You and dylan have been back and forth on these issues for years. With all the input, insight and info it seems or sounds like you feel you are still near square 1. You both know the rules, path, principles etc. but you are both still stuck in the past.

So my question is: As of today right now, where are each of you on your personal recovery? I know you can only answer for you, so please do so. Maybe Dylan would give her side on another thread.

I think each of you allow yourselves to be held back by the other. It is an endless cycle that others see and you both continue to ride. Aren't you both dizzy yet? Which one of you is willing to make that break to get off that ride?

Using the children as an excuse to keep that ride going is not good for the children. It is evident it isn't good for your M and hurts each of your personal recovery.

Plain and simple? Yep, on paper but take a look at your personal recovery. You both have made strides but you each keep holding the other back. Or so you both seem to say.

Dewt, I like others want to see you, Dylan and your family succeed. We can't do it for you. We can support and help you but if u 2 don't stop pointing fingers, it won't get better.

Maybe it isn't getting worse but I am sure you are tired of all the going arounds when you s/b moving forward with your lives either apart or together.

This post isn't meant to depress you. It is meant to help U 2 see it from maybe another angle.

Wishing you the best.

Aloha,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Julius:
<strong>You really are not the one who can fix this marriage so you should stop trying. Fix your relationship with our Jealous GOD who seeks a relationship with you first. Once you work for that the pain and hurt you are feeling will fade and evil will be kept at bay.

Sorry if this is over the top, it helps me sooo much I can't express it in words.
Edited to add..
The biblical quotes are from your sig link <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, Julius, you should post more often. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I think you did very well. Witty and thought provoking. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

For the record, I don't think you are over the top. And I must say that God has helped me through things during this that nobody else could have.

In French, the word for sin is "Pecher". Translated, it means 'to miss the goal'. (as in archery, when you miss the target... same word) I have sinned repeatedly. And it happens when the pain and fear overwhelm me and pull me away from God.

My sig line is up to remind me how the Lord has forgiven me and how he has passed on the responsibility to Love and Forgive and most importantly to ACT WITH GRACE.

dewt

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just J:
<strong> Abjure these thinking types, Dewt. You are a married man. Forget divorce. Forget Plan A. Her affair is OVER. You are no longer in a place where you have any grounds for leaving. None, zero, zip.

You're married to her, man. That means permanently. So yeah, you ARE faced with forever, here, with living this way for the rest of your life.

Better start figuring yourself out and how to make it work, because it's not going to go away.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is one of those things that I needed/wanted to hear. I'd like to point out that my 'time limit' has expired, and I'm still here.

I told Dylan about my expiration date and how I'd realized that I wasn't ready to give up yet but how with the passing of this date a feeling of hopelessness is settling in. So yes, I'm sharing my fears and feelings and doing my best to do it in a non-LB way.

<strong>"I'm frightened that you'll hurt me, and when I'm frightened, I want to run away."</strong>

Isn't this a major theme here? On both ends?

What I want to scream is that, yes we are both frightened, and yes we both want to run away (in our own ways) but as long as we keep doing this, we will NEVER move forward. We BOTH have to face this fear and realize that no progress will be made until we face our fears and put a foot forward.

The only way to build trust is to excersise it.

I'm scared out of my mind. I am here trying to face that fear and stay on track. Sometimes the fear fogs the way, but rather than blunder on in the fog, and falling in holes, I'm asking for guidance and direction.

Ideally that guidance and direction and support would come from Dylan. Till then it seems I will have to rely occaisionally on lumber from y'all to keep myself propped up in times of chaos. I'm wondering if we might use 2x3s instead of 2x4s as this time around I'm posting before stumbling.

I'm not here just looking for pats on the back, but on the other hand, it wouldn't be a bad thing if I did get some indications when I'm doing a good thing instead of just 2x4s when I'm not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LovingBoundaries:
<strong>I read that you want a PLAN of some kind. Last I knew, you POJA'd a plan with Dylan that had her move in with you and mini, and you BOTH work on YOUR OWN issues, and after you BOTH made the individual progress you needed to make then you both would decide if it was time to start rebuilding efforts. Do I remember correctly?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I remember this conversation. It was one of many talks we had. At no point to I remember being enthusiastic about this. To me, you can't just sweep the fact that our relationship is in crisis under the rug and pretend it doesn't exist until you complete your personal journey. I don't think that's fair nor particularily good for a marriage. It's like the WS who says they need to get away to figure things out. It's fog talk. You don't fix a relationship by exiting it.

I remember agreeing to this, reluctantly. I remember saying that if it had to be that way, I understood and could do very little about it. I remember saying I'd give it a try but when the reality of it settled in, I remember going to Dylan with my concerns and being honest about them.

Just because two people agree on something at one point, doesn't make it a good thing. I hold my wife's affair up as a prime example of how that kind of thinking can lead to disaster.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LovingBoundaries:
<strong>In your opinion, have YOU held up YOUR end of the POJA yet?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I said, I don't think that qualifies as POJA. Having said that, I've been making very real efforts to continue developing myself. I'm trying to give Dylan the space to do her own work too.

But...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LovingBoundaries:
<strong>dewt, what happens when Dylan is finished with her foundational individual work? A lot of that depends on whether or not YOU have done YOUR foundational individual work.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">... the problem is that I don't see Dylan doing any foundational work. Over the past year, I see person stunned into inaction by the pain she is experiencing and I see a person who steadfastly refuses to choose a direction for her life and for our marriage.

This is part of the source of my frustration. And I'd like to add that I realize that just because I don't see it doesn't mean it's not happening. She's posting in a private forum and exhanging private emails with people. I don't know what's being written or said and I won't jump to conclusions. I pray that the people she's communicating with on this are giving her good and helpful advice and insights. I fear because I've seen some of what some of these folk have written to her before.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LovingBoundaries:
<strong>Time to make a decision dewt. Are you going to learn BS 101? You would have to fix YOUR 50% of the state of the marriage issues that were there prior to the start of the A--the A that you and Dylan AGREED she could start.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have to jump in here. I never, EVER agreed that she could start an affair.

AND, you've jumped from pointing out that I agreed to put the marriage aside to work on personal issues right to me fixing my 50%. Not fair. But yes, I desperately want to work on that 50%. I really and honestly want to show Dylan that I can learn from my mistakes and that through following our words with ACTION we can salvage this.

If I missed the point, please don't be offended... remake it to me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LovingBoundaries:
<strong>What's it gonna be dewt? The choice is yours. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I've made my choice. I love this woman. But my choice is only 50% of the deal. I can only do so much on my own and my resolve is not untouchable. I sooo want this to work, but on the other hand, if the current trends continue, I just see more chaos and pain.

So what do I do about that?

dewt

Now, after wading through all of your posts, I just want to add one thing...

I KNOW this is not easy for Dylan. I KNOW that she is facing issues she never thought that she'd have to face.

I know that being her, with me, is a big step for her.

I appreciate the efforts she is making and know that this is very difficult for her.

I feel that if she would just say to me, "It will be a long, hard road, but I want to face this with you and do what we need to to rebuild and recover," I would have immeasurable support for my resolve.

Right now, though, I feel almost constantly that I'm at the wrong end of a very one-sided pointing finger of judgement. It's very frustrating and hurtful and I feel that I've been living under the glare of that spotlight for soooo long. I don't deny that I've done things to land me there. Far from it. But until that spot light is expanded to cover the larger picture, I don't see that any positive outcome can be reached. Over the past 5 years, that kind of attitude has contributed immensely to our dissolution.

Our marriage is saveable only if the TWO of us are pulling on the yoke. Only if the TWO of us each accept responsibility for our individual actions and attitudes and resolve to make changes.

I feel that for the past 5 years, Dylan has been waiting for me to fix everything and only once she's satisfied will she be willing to make some efforts to address the fact that I have needs and hurts too. And to be honest, I don't even see that. I feel like she thinks that EVERYTHING is my fault and that my issues are minor and she has no obligation to make any amends or otherwise address the issue that MY ENs have been ignored for the past 8 yrs.

Having said that, I want to point out that I'm not acting on these feelings. Just feeling them. I realize the nature of these kinds of feelings and how they reflect an incomplete interpretation of the situation. Still, it's the way I feel.

J

DEWT, I haven't been around much the last few months as I have been in full recovery mode with FWW which required a relocation of our family so I may not be totaly up to speed on your situtation but I do have one suggestion for you.

I wish I new how to pull a portion of a previous thread into this one but I haven't figured that one out yet... but you said something to the effect that; I usually go in with the best of intentions and then when nothing happens I make bad decisions, or something like that.

The turning point in my dealings with my WW and her active A was when I realized that every action I made towards WW was designed to elicit a specific reaction from her. You know what I mean, the I'm going to say this so she say that, or the boy this will really open her eyes move that she barley notices because of the fog. Anyway, each time she would fail the test I would sink deeper into dispair and usually end up LBing horribly.

Then one day I made up my mind that I would no longer give these little tests and that if I said I love you, I would not expect an I love you back no matter how badly I wanted to hear it. That it would be said because it was what "I" wanted to express not something used to get her to say it to me. So I set my WW down and told her that I realized what I had been doing and that I knew it was hurting us and killing me. I went on to tell her that since I knew it would not be easy for me that if in fact I relapsed and placed expectations out there that went unfullfilled, rather than LB I might have to leave the house from time to time just to gather my thoughts. In effect the ball was in her court.

It's funny, it didn't do much good with her at first but I felt better from the get go and as the pressure from me went away she slowly drew closer.

2X4 tiem. Lastly, you must decide how committed you are to making your marriage work. If you want to make it work STOP dating and never date again. Married people do not date, that is called having and A.

My FWW while in the fog told my 11 YO son that she was seeing OM becasue daddy was so mean to her. As I explained to him, daddy is not mean to mommy she is just very confused right now. However, even if someone is being mean it is never alright for a married person to date someone else, if daddy really was being mean to mommy she should divorce me and then think about getting a boyfriend. If you're in a marriage you are committed to one person and one person only.

You must share those views or you would not be upset with your WW's A.

Just my take. Hang in there.

Morning, Dewt!
NO 2x4's today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Sometimes it is hard to get the right tone in an email. If you and I sat down and talked face to face, you would see and feel what I am trying to say.

Re-read and re-read your response to my post. Yup, I was hard. Would I change what I said? Maybe a teensy bit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

e.g. It never came across that for me and me alone, when someone says, I don't want to do this unless you do it first, I come to a screeching halt. Thinking, Oh Yeah? Think you can tell me what to do? UH NOPE! Not always healthy. But, can be considered my boundaries.

If, on the other hand, they approach me in a loving way and say, "Mom, W, Friend, etc, I am really hurt by this." Or, "I can't do this without you, will you help me figure out a solution to this?" And then work TOGETHER on getting past the hurt, misunderstanding, etc. 99% of the time, I will back off.

THat has to do with my style, personality, past experiences, etc. I took a temperament test a while ago for a job interview and the results REALLY helped me to understand why certain people just bug the heck out of me and why others I like and admire immediately.

I am an analytical, intuitive type person. So, don't give me the touchy feely stuff, give me the facts. THen I can make a decision, etc. That is an example. But, it also said the stuff that just makes me go nuts. e.g. if I feel backed into a corner I will come out fighting in a VERY confrontational way and will use a scorched earth, shock the he!! out of you to make you think kind of policy to get my point across. Not very productive in personal relationships, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

So, I know what I have to work on. Coupled with the I am usually right attitude, I can be "difficult". Big understatement.

THe result of this ramble is to explain why I would react the way I suggested Dylan might be reacting is from my experience.

THe other thing that comes to mind is a case of the yabutts. Ya, but ... Ya, but... etc. BOTH of you.

I don't know which poster said it but, if you do the same thing over and over again and expect different results, that's insane. So, my question is. Is this working for you? I will hazard a guess and say no. You're stuck. Neither of you have moved past the hurts and the betrayals.So, what are you AND Dylan going to do to get past that?

I feel for you, Dewt. I am in the same boat. In my case, my WH won't even try. He isn't here. And refuses to recognize that things could be better. Every time we talk, the same junk is brought up with absolutely no resolution. ROund and Round we go. Never going forward. So, I get that part. None of my suggestions for solutions will be considered. So, my only solution is to get a third person involved. Like a MC. Which turned into a disaster. Another story - don't ask. So, I am still struggling to find a way to work this out. On my own, hence my name. With no help other than this board. Which has helped me to stay sane and not go overboard.

THe point is, I am STILL trying to find a solution and am very discouraged but still haven't given up. I KNOW that there is a way to resolve this. Just don't know what the heck it is, yet. And, I am sure there is a way for you two as well. Just hang in there and look for another way of resolving this.

Okay one more thing. Sorry, long-winded. I read a book with a way to talk that is somewhat radical. I would love to try this. First step is to never do this when you are mad or upset. THe second step is to hold each other's hands and really look at each other. First one partner says, I feel when you ....that I ... Or WHen you do or say .... I really don't llike that or it hurts me. The other person can only say Thank you as a response. NOTHING ELSE. Only say one or 2 things. THen kiss and hold each other. THen move on to something completely different. NO DISCUSSION AT THIS TIME. This way you get out what you need to and the other person can't bite back and has time to think about things. THen at a later date, He/she can say their piece. I like this idea. both becasue there are rules of engagement so to speak. And no lashing out saying things that you might regret later.

What do you think?

Mornin' dewt,

First, about the 2x4s----from me, think of it more like a cooked spaghetti noodle. If I'm intending it to be more than that, I'll tell you. How's that? Btw, except for my AO at you yesterday, I've never intended a 2x4. A lot gets lost in the translation when I express myself with written words.

Sorry, gotta go. I'll try to come back later.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LovingBoundaries:
<strong>...think of it more like a cooked spaghetti noodle.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Eewww...

Dewt,

I am still interested in your input to my former post.

Thanks,
L.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Omigosh...

Brb...