Hmm,

Her promiscuity is born of many things and completely pre-dates me, she was essentially raped at a very young age, it had a huge impact on her psyche.

An open marriage is obviously a dangerous thing, it took me a while to realise that, I do not think my wife yet sees it that way. The thing is, from my perspective, its not a problem when all is well in the relationship, it hurts like hell when things go bad and I do not think she realises that either, although she may now, she has been very quick to make sure that I do not worry if she goes out for example, nothing is happening.

Initially I thought that closing the open marriage, something my counsellor asked after, would be a deal-breaker, but now I'm not so sure. If we can get our relationship back on the rails I have the feeling that both of us committing to being faithful will promote a great deepening of the bonds between us, but that is a little ways down the track to be discussing that.

It is certainly something that I would now prefer.

Cheers

chrisg....

the problem with a seperation with no defined boundaries or goals is that it quickly becomes the known...and we humans become very comfortable with the known...

even if and when the known behaviors, patterns, or situations are not something we desire...

this could drag on for ever..living seperately happily dating....

and you should push and assert YOUR boundaries...for they are yours to live with...

what can you what have you changed about your work schedule that offers much more time together?

what are her reasons for not wanting children with YOU...

you aren't giving much in the concrete arena of things to address..

what I imagine is that you two talk freqeuntly on the phone and have nice marshmellowy conversations...

avoiding all painful things
avoiding all the issues...

like why you two aren't in marriage counseling obviously she has issues..
you have issues...
and you two need a really good pro marriage counselor..
not a feel good go find yourselves counselor...

Also you need to start to flex your wings and ideas on why an open marriage is so insidiously dangerous to a marriage...

basically it gives permission to use other people as only sexual escapes and releases...it undermines Gods whole vision of the gift of human sexuality...
and you need to begin to plant seeds that is no longer what you desire.....

would YOU want children with a person that uses other people...

does she understand the core issues of your lies...though not having a clear picture it's difficult to advise on that...but what is her reactions been...what stage is she in...

most likely she is or is going through the five stages of grieving..which people do when they are faced with their world not being what they thought...

have you read up on the concepts
have you seriously considered getting counsel from this website....

third marriage chris....
this should be the defining where the buck stops..
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

ARK

Chrisg,

very quick to make sure that I do not worry if she goes out for example, nothing is happening.

Again, very interesting! Goes out with another man?? And nothing is happening... emotionally?? Physically??

My God man, people here have a very hard time dealing with a spouse that has been with OP for either an EA or PA, or both. (Of course a PA for a woman includes the EA, according to the books.)

How much more difficult must it be to be in a relationship where it is OK to be with an OP. But not.. what...?? Be with them twice in one week? Not be emotionally involved with them?

Are there boundaries that are set?

What I have read is that a woman must feel some emotional closeness and trust with a man before physical activity can occur. So in an open relationship, in order for the woman to "play", wouldn't she require a certain amount of feelings for the "sex snack"?

I guess my point is that the woman's emotions and feelings would become much more complicated and confused than the man's.

So maybe that is where your W is at the moment.

DISCLAIMER!! I have been on a "Holiday" luncheon imbibing a good Pinot, so please disregard any of the above that is out of wack.

k

I'm not explaining myself well....My wife plays at sex, one night stand sort of things, no relationshhips at all.

My mention of her making sure I understand she is not playing up has to do with the past few weeks, since the separation, she always makes sure I know where she is and what is happening, its seemingly an automatic desire on her part to not hurt me.

Boundaries....All that would do right now I think is push her away, but that is not to say that there is not progress, she is, in my belief working her way through this. Its as if she needs to build up strength to give it another try.

My work schedule I have already changed as much as I can, will be moving out of the home office into proper accomodation after Christmas and the home office has been partially dismantled already and I'm being more careful about "logon/logoff" times.

Travel I cannot do a lot about, its that kind of job, IT startup.

My wife has said that she does not like the way I have raised my two teenage daughters much. I'm inclined to not take too much notice of it, theoretical parenting or step-parenting even is not the same as being a father. My girls are good kids, a bit messed around by the divorce and the older one has some autistic issues, mild, but they have been raised ok.

I have yet to say it, but I probably will, its unusual to have the opportunity to see a father before you have children with him and raising every child is different and should be a harmonious effort of both parents.

I think that one we will come to resolve ok.

I can't say our conversations are intense, but they are not marshmallowy either, nor are they avoiding issues and about half of them are face to face with a small component of email as well.

Lies, yes she gets it, hasn't worked out her personal forgiveness yet but its fading.

Concepts, yes I have, looking at working through the questionaires as soon as practicable with her.

Counselling is the tough one, from this site is probably not practical with us in Australia and I had a very bad experience with an utterly useless counsellor last time around and my wife knows that. Essentially the process came down to three meetings that in the counsellor's view validated that we should separate, without even trying to look for or explore reconcilliation.

I think those are the primary questions asked.

As I said I do not think I am explaining myself well, The picture you are responding to is not the one I'm trying to paint. With the passing of a few weeks I think progress is being made, communication is good, contact is not infrequent, she hasn't moved forward any more steps like taking the rest of her stuff or re-directing mail or moving regular bank deductions for her car etc.

That does mean of course that she has her hand in my pocket from one way of looking at it, but I'm unconvinced its actually intentional on her part, busy end of year work, and in my terms its very little money, significant against her income but not mine.

I'm also inclined to think that it may simply be an indication that she is moving towards an early return.

That's not guaranteed of course, just my suspicion, the real question I have in that case is what then?

She has already said plainly that we have work to do and she is not going to simply bring her bags back.

Cheers

Chrisg,

OK, mate, WHEN she comes back (notice no if <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ), will she be coming back to a closed, monogamus (sp?) marriage, or open?

It sounded like the open marriage is not something you will go back to. Correct me if I am wrong.

If it is a closed M she is coming back to, then;

You read the book His Needs/Her Needs and the other ones on MB.

Fill up her love bank.

Plan A your A$$ off.

Take the Emotional Needs questionnaire and try to fill the first 5...you must fulfill the top 3

Keep posting here.

Can you set some boundaries and/or rules for the monogamy? Your whole relationship, marriage, and life style sounds like it will totally change.

Outside help, to guide you both, would be advantageous if you can find a good person. That is always the problem.

I would not poo poo all therapists because of your one bad experience.

NO WORRIES!

K

Monogamy is certainly something I would prefer, I've no idea what her feelings on the subject are likely to be. Either she is being a far better actor than she has ever seemed before or she is quite withdrawn in that regard at the moment.

The book I will get, have already downloaded the questionaire, timing on when to introduce that idea to her will be important.

Plan A I really need to read up on, seems tricky....

I agree on a good relationship counsellor, not sure how long it will take to have her see that though.

Today we went through the inevitable money thing, all the bills and statements arrived so I extracted what she has agreed she wants to pay and let her have the figures. Basically she is already in debt to me to over $2000 that I've paid out on standing orders and such, which was rather upsetting for her but she determinedly moved the key ones to her new account and promised to pay me back asap.

I don't really care about the cash much, I do care about her seeing that she can't just spend if she wants to be independent from me for a while. The fact is she will be very unlikely to be able to make ends meet, let alone pay me back.

I don't suppose it will hurt either for her to have to manage money for a while and understand the pressures I've shouldered in that regard, or to be reminded of the fact that I'm one heck of a provider even if I'm not an ideal husband.

I do begin to see that the outward face she is putting on conceals a lot of that fog you guys talk about.

Thanks for the positive word, I'm hanging in there :-)

Cheers

Just what do you do, or how do you guage if something unexpected happens as to whether its an overall positive thing or not?

My wife called early today asking if she could come over to borrow a tablecloth for Christmas Dinner. No problem I said. She arrived shortly after and we chatted about a few things, in particular her mother being a bit of a pain about Christmas and she asked if she could take a few movies to watch, again no problem.

Suddenly for reasons I can't really explain, the sheer normality of her being here perhaps, overwhewlmed me and I asked how "we" were going.

The answer was really no change, she hasn't reached that point yet. But that devolved into a conversation that included my pointing out that the problems between us where not all of my doing, she had things that perhaps caused the things in me that she didn't like. I was thinking of her moodiness, her coldness sometimes to affection without reason, her cynicsm, and her really bad personal trait, she is incredibly untidy.

That got a few nasty things back, although not said in huge anger. I am supposed to have hurt her consistently for seven years, she is having waves of normality interspersed with waves of anger, most of it at herself for putting up with it, if I was tired of the uncertainty then she could make it certain right now, if I thought she had caused problems then we should break up because we are incompatible. etc.

You get the picture.

Then she left, but not before a hug, and a final word that included my reminding her that if ever I started doing anything that made it worse she should tell me. You just did, a great deal, she said, and drove off.

She's still calling later to arrange when she is coming over on Christmas Day.

I'm confused, did I make it worse or did I prod her to stop drifting and start working on when/if she can feel ready to return? Or did I open a wound or two that she doesn't want to examine, in terms of problems she knows she has? Or is there something different that came out of this conversation, or nothing?

Cheers

Well,

There have been times in this forum when I feel as if I'm talking to myself. But that probably is not a bad thing, it helps, it's just not at all like the forum I spend too much of time on, but will soon leave. I'm a moderator there, it's a collection of mostly young geeks talking IT and current affairs, a place where I enjoyably hid for a couple of years, part of my present problem.

On Christmas morning my wife came here at around 11am, supposedly to visit with my children, who had not arrived yet, and didn't until after she had to leave.

We exchanged presents. I had taken a lot of care in assembling for her a picnic bag cooler, including lots of extra inclusions. She loved it. Her present to me was much more modest but chosen with great care, Leonard Cohen's latest, and perhaps last, album. I love Cohen, if ever you need reflective reading do try his The Favourite Game or Beautiful Losers. Neither are easy reads, but rewarding, the same could be said of his music.

The outcome of our time together was a massive leap forward in my view, a lot of air clearing, although there is more still to do, and our first "date."

I'm taking her to lunch on Tuesday and on the advice of a friend, female, I'm going to prepare a picnic and take her to a beautiful place.

In the course of our talking she offered sex, the first time since our separation, it was done in a strange way, but we'll see on that, she is most certainly still in the fog, and its a fog that she has been in much longer than just this time apart, or even the time when she was determining to leave.

I'm probably in a similar fog myself, but I'm getting better, for want of another way to say it, somewhat quicker than she is. That was always expected, our natures are different, my curse is that life can overtake me and I lose focus, hers is that she has unrealistic ideals and has this year smacked into the reality that she is 25 and not achieving her goals.

Well, once you see things like that you make changes, once I'm given a wake-up call I make changes, but I'm very quick to admit when I am wrong, and sincere about it.

We are both in need of a great deal of repair, for completely different reasons, but I am thinking that we have reached a point where we can each help with that process for the other.

I am rather scared that I'm making too much of one meeting, but I do know her well and I do know how once recovery starts it is like a pea tossed of a snow-capped mountain that builds into an avalanche.

If I am right then the biggest thing I have to do is not move too fast. If I am wrong then compared to where I was a few days ago nothing has been lost.

I still encountered a degree of her cynicism.

How do you react to a woman who has a deathly allergy to peanuts when you offer to pay for a new epipen that can stop the anaphalactic shock when her response is "well we are still technically married, you can collect the insurance?"

I was sitting half an hour ago thinking of how to move forward and I decided that the time has almost arrived to share the emotional needs questionaire.

If our date goes well then I will give it to her, the next day I have to go away, a friend is getting married, it will give us both time to think about them and fill them in.

I am, I think, on the cusp of a recovery, someone please tell mer I'm not imagining this and give me the strength to not mess up what I think I need to do, and keep doing.

I do not want her to come back to the same me, I think I've put real changes in place, I hope I can maintain them.

Cheers

Hi Chris,

I read through most of your thread the other day, and finished today.

Have nothing of real value to offer in the way of understanding for your sitch, but I did want to say good luck with the E/N's questionaire. If she were to get interested in the MB concepts and maybe even the board to help sort through her thoughts, I think it would be great for you both.

While in Plan A it is important to concentrate on yourself and try not to spend too much time trying to figure out where the WS is in their mind and what the future might hold. It will just drive you crazy and get you no where.

Good luck to you Chris and hang in there!

Why thank you Weaver, I was just going through one of those darker moments, all as a consequence of thinking too far ahead as you just said. Your words lifted me straight out of it.

I've no reason to be thinking that way at all, except that its 5am here and I'm a little depressed.

My wife visited again yesterday, to wish Christmas cheer to my daughters whom she had missed on Christmas Day. it was a perfectly ok visit, she hugged the girls then sat on the couch with me for about an hour talking about this and that and playing with our cats.

Some of her chatter involved plans a little further down the track than I want to look, her car being paid out in a year, the need to get the carpets where she is cleaned before the first inspection. But what does any of that really mean? We all plan things that don't happen because circumstances change. I'm refusing to take much notice of it, but it slipped into my mind this morning.

Right now I want to focus on making her a nice picnic lunch for tomorrow, selecting a place to go, the intial suggestion by a friend is I think a little too far for a surprise, but where I am there are lots of choices for picnic eating, and thinking a little on what light conversation to have.

When she left yesterday it was with an unasked for warm kiss for me and a big smile.

I guess with every day I understand better about the fog, she really does not have much of an idea what she is doing at the moment, she hasn't even made any New Year's plans, which is hugely unlike her, let alone given much thought to her birthday, which is 9th January.

She did however suggest that I get her a concert ticket for her birthday, to an annual event that she always attends called Big Day Out, an all day rock concert. I suggested I might come along with her, which pleased her but she didn't think I would enjoy it. Well, we'll see, I think I will buy two tickets.

It's a pity I won't be here for New Year with my friends getting married interstate, but can't be helped, she'll probably go out with friends, of do something with her dad.

Only one thing really concerns me about her at the moment, she is drinking a lot again, her father's influence essentially, but she is planning to go back onto her diet in a couple of weeks when all the festivities have died down.

You know, it has been so long since I have been on a "date" that I'm actually a little worried that I won't remember what to do :-)

I'm still concerend that I may be reading too much into the past couple of meetings, but I guess tomorrow will help in seeing if that is the case or if we really are moving forwards.

Cheers

Hmm,

I guess I was reading too much into it.....

Not really a bad "date" but a long deep and meaningful conversation that came down to "no change."

Something interesting came out of it though. She told me she used to post here earlier this year, probably not in this area, no infidelity, but she said she stopped posting when someone from Texas who had just gotten out of a 10 year abusive relationship told her something to the effect of "honey you have to get out of there."

Now I'm not abusive, not in any way. Well, I suppose I have had some anger issues in the past, but they were directed at inanimate things or sheer frustration over circumstances. So I do wonder what she was saying about our marriage that led to that.

She told me she posted that she was a lot younger than me that I spent all my time on the computer and that my kids have big issues that I can't see, if I recall her words correctly. There was also some mention of being much too material.

I'll cop for that last one.

Money makes me paranoid, my ex- used to be awful with the stuff and cost me years and much health extinguishing debt. No longer, now I'm quite wealthy overall, but the paranoia does linger and I do work too hard with the excuse that it is to provide for the ones I love the things they want. Of course you then remove time to be with the loved ones...A male Catch - 22 I guess.

But what rather astonished me was that when I asked her why on earth she didn't get me involved on the site here she was quite vehement that I would not have done so because I believed that nothing was wrong.

That's simply not true.

I have had uneasy lingering doubts about the health of the relationship overall for quite a while. But more than anything else I am the kind of person that would engage with my partner in something like this place at the drop of a hat, it's the sort of participatory thing that I actually enjoy.

She also said she had completed all the questionaires, by herself.

I did not think that was the point of the questionaires at all, but I asked if at some time we could do them together and received a maybe, also the same answer on counselling.

So, overall still nothing to really encourage me.

A lot more said of course, we talked nearly three hours whilst having a nice picnic that I had prepared and some champagne and orange. But she said a few times that I having asked her to entertain the possibility of reconciliation she would do so, and she is very much a person of her word.

Other things just didn't quite gel though.

We could apparently be friends tomorrow, but I'd have an ulterior motive, which yes, I would, I want our marriage restored.

Our date was "a little early."

She has always admired and respected certain things about people and therefore kept them as frineds even after relationships ended.

Hmm, I'll think on that one because later she told me there were several things she could not get past right now, principally that she doesn't trust or respect me.

Well, that's probably the lies, and all I can do is live with that and work to restore trust, which engenders respect.

She is, she says, working to recover herself, which I can appreciate, when I asked if that was so she could become strong enough to give us another try, I received a nod.

All I can do, and I told her as much, is support her in that, try not to feel the pain, and wait.

She told me not to put my life on hold.

Hmm, I doubt I could if I wanted to, too much happening.

But I'll do all of that for her, because I do love her and I don't want this to end.

So, Plan A it is, anyone have any other ideas?

Cheers

Well, we continue to move along, a lot of work on my side, been reading a lot of self-help books, in particular "How Can I forgive you?" by Janis Abrahms Spring and "Rebuilding" by Fisher and Alberti.

The latter is about coping with divorce of course, but I bought it more because it has a chapter on what it calls "Healing separation."

I have a feeling that we have sort of groped our way into that state without quite really realising it so I shall, at the right time, be discussing that with my wife. There are numerous agreements in the process that make sense, in particular both sides working at the situation.

I'm rather unconvinced that my wife is yet dwelling much on our future, if we have one. She seems to be letting time pass, to do its miracle of healing, which is not a bad thing, but she is still drinking too much.

I'll see if the end of the festive season and the departure of her father changes that, I hope it does because alcohol is no answer to anything here.

I have the beginnings of a plan I suppose.

It involves continuing as I am, not being angry, being attentive and loving and calm speaking, none of that hard for me, and in the meantime encouraging contact as often as possible.

She is here again today, a friends computer needs repair.

Meanwhile I'm going shopping for a good pro-marriage relationship counseller and waiting for a good time to engage her with the questionaires.

One other thing: I'm framing up an honest and as complete as I can make it unreserved apology, probably in writing, for all the things that I have done that have hurt her. That came out of the first book.

We'll see.

I can work away for ever but until she engages there is not going to be any real progress in the relationship, we will, as noted by someone, just drift.

Anyone have any other advice for me? its seeming rather lonely here at the moment....

Cheers

Lots of mixed signals this week.....

I've seen my wife just about every day, when I returned home on Sunday she had to come over briefly, I was locked out, an accident. Monday she visited with a PC that she was trying to fix for a friend but it was a little beyond her, Tuesday she visited twice, once to drop off a part for the PC, and again to pick it up once I'd fixed it. Today she called to come over and get some paperwork.

Every time she has been here a while, every time we have had a good talk, only one deep and meaningful, I asked her to read a piece about Healing Separation, the question being was this what we were going through. She read it intently and completely, none of her quite common cynicism over anything that she does not agree with. After thinking a little she answered my question as "a little."

I've the feeling that was quite an admission.

She pushed back on sharing in the many self-help books I'm reading "doesn't believe much in them."

The paperwork she needed today was because she is applying for a personal loan. I'm not at all sure that is a good idea, or even that she will qualify, but we'll see.

It's her birthday Sunday, I asked if I could take her to lunch for it. She is not yet sure of her plans, especially with regard to her mother but she happily agreed to a brunch on Saturday then she nominated the location: The site of our first date, and said "That will be nice."

I'm getting lost in all the threads going on here, no rejection, some affection, still intent on independence, no slammed doors, more time needed I guess.

Today if she held to it she recommenced her diet, hope she can stick to it, its alcohol-free.

Tomorrow she returns to work, that could be very traumatic, its sort of expected that they are going to find they have suffered tsunami casualties.

"His needs, Her needs" arrived today, so me to bed to begin reading.

I'd really appreciate a little feed-back here, or am I writing a blog? :-)

Cheers

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chrisg:
<strong> Lots of mixed signals this week.....
Cheers </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chrisg,

I realize this is many days since your last post. And I have skimmed some of them so I am not completely up with what's gone on.

You seem to be someone very interested in learning and reading material on relationships, how people grow, etc. May I suggest you do a little reading on the mid-life crisis at http://www.teamtechnology.co.uk/tt/t-articl/midlife2.htm ???

I am referring to your wife, not yourself, when I say she may be going through a 'crisis' of sorts within hersself. Contrary to popular belief, we all go through periods of crisis or growth, often unrecognized as such, where we question many of our beleifs, how we want our world to be, or what we want ourselves to be. While the typical '45 year mid life crisis' has gained some recognition amoung people who care about such things, an MLC does happen to people anywhere from age 20 and up!

I'm not sure how this would help you, other than to try and understand what she's going through. In my case, my H lost his job, decided he wanted to become a fireman/EMT at the age of 55, and had an affair with a woman he had dated when he was 25. Talk about some unresolved issues! Needless to say, a divorce is in process and a family of six destroyed.

I wish you well. Enjoy the ride. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Thankyou for that, it looks interesting.

I've been posting over in the Conflict and resolution thread because responses were slow here.

Unfortunately over there everyone just assumes its an affair.

My wife and I are very honest with each other, she's having some casual sex, I'm thinking about that myself, she is not having an affair, if she were she would tell me.

So I may not post here much more, its redundant to be rebutting the affair assertion, my wife and I have other things to work on.

But thanks for the input, I'm sorry to hear where you are at.

Cheers

My wife was 19 when I met her, young yes, but she had lived alot.

Are you kidding? First of all no one at 19 has lived alot. I am 37 and if I died tomorrow I can say I had a good life and I certainly lived alot.

At 19 young women are very impressed by the people they meet. Obviously she was impressed with the way you communicated with her. She may have even felt safe and taken care of by you like a father....But girls grow up and when they have time to themselves they become aware of their surroundings. They realize that they do need space and their own life.

As far as this open marriage stuff is concerned...Its an excuse made by many couples to excuse infidelity...but it doesnt take away the threats involved with doing such things like becoming emotionally or physically attracted to the other person and wanted to be with the other person instead...and lets not talk about std's.

You need to find a woman a little more seasoned like yourself. I'm sure you liked the fact that she was young and so malleable. Please don't make her older that she needs to be. She is 26...let her go and allow her to enjoy this life for you are only given one to live and it is short.

<small>[ January 27, 2005, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Querida ]</small>

My wife and I are very honest with each other, she's having some casual sex, I'm thinking about that myself, she is not having an affair, if she were she would tell me.

So I may not post here much more, its redundant to be rebutting the affair assertion, my wife and I have other things to work on.

Yes you should work on important things...yet I can't imagine what you believe they are...


you are correct Chrisg...that right now marriagebuilders most likely can't help you...

you nor your wife are interested in marriage...
and till you value that..there is nothing anyone can do for either of you....for people here value marriage and its fidelity..

I am sure there are plenty of websites out there that support your thinking....

I am not trying to be mean...just honest...
you speak of a past riddled with dishonest behavior on your part..yet you and she continue to seek out a life that only breeds dishonesty...and uses outsiders to fill needs that each of you are capable of filling for one another.....yet you haven't even given that try...

I would argue..casual sex...easy
swinging....easy...

the tough work is being married....
that's what this board finds value in...


ARK

Those points are rather well taken, it is what we are working back towards if via a strange path.

Who is to say whose thinking is correct, or even when one form of thinking suits and another does not?

Both my wife and I have seen good and bad together and apart, if we can get through this then there is a rather special and committed relationship awaiting us I believe.

In the end its about whom you want to be with and how you commit to that person and how you feel in yourself about the relationship.

My wife seems unable to make a complete disconnect from me at this time. Perhaps our time of no-contact will weaken that, or strengthen it, no way to know, but there is something very special between us and I'm not walking away from it until there is no hope whatsoever left.

I doubt I will post much here any more, there seems to be little point, but keep up what you are doing, for many I am sure it is a great help, your advise to me however has been of very limited use.

Cheers