</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LovingBoundaries:
<strong>Sitting? Good. Do you know what you described? Guess. Go ahead, guess.

IT'S (F)BS101 DEWT!!!!!!!!!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

So anyway, now I have to apply BS101 consistently. Put it into, or rather, keep putting it into action.

([i]Which I already knew... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Anyway... we're drifting again... lol...

Now, about that chronology...? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

John

ps... sorry 'bout all the smiley's I'm just giddy with nerves after a hella drive. Yeah, Canada.

Hi dewt,

I need to take a day or two before getting back to this.

I gotta tell you, you floored me with that post.

I hope it was sincere. I'm probably more than just a little cynical, though, as I noticed that it came after Patient Love posted (which let you know that she was reading it even if dylan isn't). If I remember correctly, she isn't just a board member from yours and dylan's past but she has a RL friendship now? As I said, I hope it was sincere and not a misuse of the board. Either way, time and effort will prove that out and you will live with the results.

Back to the chronology in a day or so. I'm looking forward to laying out what my idea is. You have to realize, though, that there's no guarantee that it's a good one but I'm hoping that more knowledgeable posters will read your thread and chime in with cautions and/or advice.

Take care

Drats, double post <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ December 20, 2004, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: LovingBoundaries ]</small>

I hope you didn't hurt anything falling down... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

And take your time in replying... I'm not going anywhere...

And yes, it was sincere. And I don't blame you, my W, or anyone else for being cynical. I've certainly earned it.

I did not know Nicole was reading. Wouldn't have changed a thing even if I knew she was. I'm also assuming that Dylan will eventually read this thread. (Particularily because I asked her to)

Anyway, either way, time will prove me out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'm looking forward to hearing your idea. I would be a little surprised to see other posters drop in. Mostly I think they've grown a little bit cynical...

ttfn,

John

I'm not exactly sure why, but it concerns me that you've invited dylan to read this thread. I don't have time to look back at old posts right now, but hasn't this happened before?

If inviting dylan to read your stuff has happened before....

What were the circumstances?
What was the reason you asked her to read?
What were the expectations you had?
How did it affect you emotionally?
How did it influence your actions afterward?

Remember, you asked for help in seeing your patterns. I'm wondering if asking dylan to read this fits into one of yours.

Before we started the chronology, you had mentioned something about dylan posting elsewhere and that her posts were not available to you. I know this bothered you, dewt, especially because you had concerns about whether she was getting good advice.

Trust that she found good counsel, dewt. If it's not good for her, she will figure that out just like we all do eventually. To be honest with you, I would guess that she does have good counsel and that part of her reason to post somewhere you cannot read is to protect a resource that is helping her with what she wants/needs to do for herself.

Maybe one day she'll give you the web address and an invitation to read what she's posted, after you've had enough time and consistency to prove that you can be trusted with that information. I'll give you my opinion even though you haven't asked for it---you might be on the path to becoming trustworthy, but I don't think you're far enough along on that path for anyone to be able to tell for sure.

I'm just rambling along, but maybe the concern I have comes down to this---if you invite dylan to read this thread, are you expecting to be invited to read something of hers? If not right now, when? Soon? A week? A month? Are you expecting it to be reciprocal?

dewt, my ramble might not have any accuracy at all. But if it does, just realize that if you are able to share your thread with dylan that probably means that you believe that she can be trusted with the information in it, that she can be trusted to not interfere in your personal recovery process, and that she can be trusted to not manipulate that knowledge at your expense for her own personal gain. That's a good thing if she is trustworthy in that way. But it doesn't mean that she must invite you to her threads, and it doesn't mean that you are as trustworthy as she is yet.

It might take a while for you to figure out if any of this post has any merit at all. It might, it might not. Eventually, you will know.

Back to the chronology Friday or Saturday, depending on when the MB maintenance is done.

I asked Dylan to read this thread specifically because I wanted her to double check the info I've given.

As a general rule, my threads are all open to her, or anyone else in the world to read. If I don't think she should be reading, I'll preface it with a 'vent' warning or something similar.

As for her private stuff, well, I'm uncomfortable because it's private. I like openness and honesty. Even posts that I'd rather she not read are open to her. Even my most private journals are at her fingertips should she so desire. Also, I'm uncomfortable with the fate of my family developing behind doors that I'm not allowed to go through.

As far as I know, I've never proven myself untrustworthy in such a way as to give her reason to hide her thoughts/feelings from me.

dewt

Soooo.....?

Hi dewt!

I hope your family had a very nice Chrismas!

I think my brain might be back by tonight. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Awesome. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I've been having a particularily rough coupla days.

dewt

I hear ya dewt on that one dewt <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What kind of "rough"? The same kind of rough that you've gone through before when you start dating or have a ONS?

Maybe I should tell you my idea now, before we're done with the chronology?

Btw, after the events were filled in, the next thing I was going to ask you to do is to go through the chronology and fill in when you considered yourself married, when you considered yourself "together" with dylan, when you considered yourself divorced, and when you considered yourself "not together" with dylan. I believe that there's a good chance that you would see a pattern as far as how other women figure into the chronology and how you viewed your marital status at the time.

It strikes me that you do not have clearcut lines (like I do) about when/if you're married and when/if you're not. My idea is something that might give you clearer lines. The first step is for you to decide if it is something you'd want to try, the second step is to modify my idea into specifics that would work for you, and the third step is to present it to dylan and open negotiations to reach a POJA about it.

I will post my idea after I eat and get my thoughts together. Warning--it's been a rough few weeks and a rougher few days for me, so bear with me if I don't explain it well to begin with and we have to go back and forth for a few posts to get it straight, ok?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LovingBoundaries:
<strong>What kind of "rough"? The same kind of rough that you've gone through before when you start dating or have a ONS?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, the kind of rough where I'm remembering how I was feeling last year at this time. One year ago this week, my Wife chose to let me and our son walk out that door rather than stop her affair. That in itself is a horrible memory. The fact that I'm still being rejected is what's hard to carry. I'm remembering 6 years of ILYBNILWY speeches and wondering if I'm just a lovesick idiot who doesn't know when to quit.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LovingBoundaries:
<strong>Btw, after the events were filled in, the next thing I was going to ask you to do is to go through the chronology and fill in when you considered yourself married, when you considered yourself "together" with dylan, when you considered yourself divorced, and when you considered yourself "not together" with dylan. I believe that there's a good chance that you would see a pattern as far as how other women figure into the chronology and how you viewed your marital status at the time.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Notwithstanding how I view things now...

I considered myself Married to Dylan the night she and I stood under the stars by the Rideau River in Ottawa and made vows to each other. We believe that to be the night our 8yr old son was conceived.

I considered myself divorced rougly one year ago this week.

At this time Dylan and I do not have a formal acknowledgement of any sort of committed 'Relationship'.

There is a definite correlation between my dating and my 'single' status. Furthermore, my dating periods both follow a reassurance from Dylan that 'we' were done. My first ONS was just to see if I still 'had it' and my second was an insane act of self-sabotage that defies rational explanation. NONE would have happened had I considered myself married.

The difference now, and the reason I will not be getting SF elsewhere, is that even though I may not be married, or even 'going steady' with Dylan, I am still committed to her. And I realize it.

Not very happily committed, mind you, but committed nonetheless.

I feel I'm pretty clear on where I stood, and where I stand now.

But I would still love to hear your idea. I may not be at risk of chasing skirts, but my outlook is pretty bleak right now to say the least.

Thanks for posting, btw...

John

You said:
"Thanks for posting, btw..."

You're welcome <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . You might want to hold off on the thanks because who knows if any of this is going to help. Remember the reason I posted to you? It was to yell at you after reading a post from dylan on another thread. I felt so bad for her. And I wanted to punch you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> .

I read something about how marriage isn't supposed to make you happy--it's just supposed to make you married. And that being married gives us a structure that enables us to do all the rest of what we need to do. Or something like that.

It strikes me that I have something that you don't have. I have a marriage license. I know if I'm married or not. I would know that the marriage is in the process of ending (endING not endED) when divorce papers were filed. I would know that the marriage was done and over (and I would be free to date) when the divorce was finalized in court by a judge declaring that I was no longer married. You don't have those clearcut lines. I suspect that not having those clearcut lines makes it much more difficult for both of you to take certain risks individually and with each other in the type of marriage that you have. In common law marriage, it could be over with little warning or with no warning at all. All it takes is to pack a suitcase and get another place to live. Your marriage could end 10 minutes after a fight. Worse, your marriage could end (again?) when one of you "thinks" it is over or just "decides" that it is. How secure is that really?

Then thoughts started twirling around my brain about how you might help provide a more stable and safe environment. Even though you don't have a traditional marriage, you might be able to use that as a model to POJA the terms that would signify that your common law marriage was in the process of ending, and the terms that would signify it was done and over (should it come to that). And until that entire "divorce" process was COMPLETED, you would be married.

So, I was thinking something like this.....

Until you are formally divorced (or as formally as you can do it in a common law marriage), you are married. And it is not dependent on whether or not your needs are being met, whether or not you share a bedroom, whether or not it's a good marriage, whether or not you are happy. You are married until you are not. Period.

So you would need to come up with your own "divorce process". I'm thinking something like this.....

1. Filing for divorce. In your case, I was thinking a written statement informing the other person that the divorce process was starting.

2. Since it takes a minimum of six months in my state for a divorce to become final, I was thinking that six months from the date that notice was first given is when you can consider your common law marriage to be over. Not when you no longer "feel" married. Six months after giving notice that you no longer want to BE married.

3. Divorce proceedings can be halted before the divorce becomes final. In your case, the written statement would have to be withdrawn and destroyed. If either of you again decided that you want to divorce, the process starts again INCLUDING the six months it takes to be over.

Do you think something like this could give you two a more clear and secure framework to work within? A framework where you both were certain about what the CURRENT status of your marriage is?

Well, the whole divorced thing isn't exactly my idea, and I'm pretty sure that Dylan would not be thrilled if I unilaterally declared that we were married again.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Getting married requires POJA...

That being said, please rest assured that I am/will be acting as though married. As much as I'm hurting right now and want to feel good, I'm committed, and that rules out dating or ONS. Completely rules out... as in 'it's not gonna happen'.

Also, in regards to Dylan's post... the one you wanted to scream at me about...

I'm a little piqued... If you are referring to the one I think you are, she recently reposted it.

For the record, I would like to say that the post was extremely difficult for me to read. One on hand, I understood what she was saying, as it's not the first time I heard that complaint... HOWEVER, let it NOT be said that I wasn't trying to change that.

And as much as she has a right to feel that way, I can remember times where I was looking at her lovingly and got told off for pressuring her, got told that I was 'obsessed'. And so there I have a basic dichotomy. Because there are two contrary concepts butting heads. When someone is in withdrawal, or having an affair, it is nearly impossible to overcome the perception that they have that allows them to stay in their position of unhappiness. Because they want to justify their position of unhappiness and the actions that follow.

Also... if I were to post how my affair 5 yrs ago made me feel soooo good because the OW made me feel desirable and valuable (which was something I was craving like a man in a desert craves water-and still am, 6yrs later, btw), would you start up a thread and call Dylan out or would you blast me for romantisizing my affair? Just asking...

Seriously, though... I hear Dylan's complaint. And I would LOVE some help learning how to meet that need of hers. And others too. Please understand that I love this woman with all my heart. Despite everything that has happened, and the crimes perpetrated by both of us, she is and always will be my one true love. My soulmate. And I can't think of anything I want more in the world than to make her happy.

Ok, well there is one thing... I'd like to not be so miserably unhappy and lonely. However, I think it might be possible to kill two birds with one stone in this case...

dewt

<small>[ December 28, 2004, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: dewt ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LovingBoundaries:
<strong> Do you think something like this could give you two a more clear and secure framework to work within? A framework where you both were certain about what the CURRENT status of your marriage is? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, right now, I'm fairly certain that the arrangement is thus. We are living together but not married. Neither of us will be dating nor socializing with members of the opposite sex. We are in a holding pattern until such time as Dylan decides that she would like to commit to working on restoring our family and building a life together or we decide to separate. Until that time, though I may not be married, I consider MYSELF to be committed.

I do not fear that I will fall back into dating or otherwise be unfaithful.

What I do fear is that I will become so discouraged by the lack of progress in our lives together that I will give up and ask her to leave. Right now I feel like that point is approaching fairly quickly.

The main issues:

1) I don't have a big enough income to support this family all on my own. She needs to find a job. Actually, our agreement was I would support her over the summer so that she could spend some much needed time with our son and when he went back to school in Sept, she would find work. Well, it's four months later and the bills are stacking up. I am extremely discouraged because no matter how hard I work, I can't win. No win situations are EXTREMELY discouraging to me, and it usually when faced with these situations that I come up with insane, self defeating actions.

2)A year ago, my W's affair tore this family apart. Despite the fact that we are living together, we are still torn apart and that is causing me incredible amounts of pain. Daily, I'm faced with a global sense of rejection that hurts so bad sometimes I think my chest will split wide open with the pressure of it. My LoveBank, which remained more or less intact throughout the affair and afterwards is starting to show some increasingly serious signs of drainage. I'm finding myself slipping into withdrawal and that scares me. It seems like another no-win situation and though messing around other women is not an option, I don't do well in no-win situations and there will come a point where I just simply cannot take it anymore.

And then, we will not just be not married, but our chances of reconcilliation will be gone right out the window.

Cause for all the 2x4s I get, and all the HUGE mistakes I've made along the way, I'm the one who has been struggling to get this family back together, and if I give up, there will be no-one wanting this union and it's chances will drop from very slim to zero. This is a very depressing prospect.

dewt

Hi dewt,

I think this is going to be a long one.

You said:
"I'm pretty sure that Dylan would not be thrilled if I unilaterally declared that we were married again...."

Did you forget Step 3?
"and the third step is to present it to dylan and open negotiations to reach a POJA about it"

Remember that the POJA you might come to is that you both enthusiatically agree that this ain't gonna work for you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . Even if there is nothing in my idea that would work for you two, communicating about it and negotiating might lead you two to figure out something else that would work for you.

You said:
"Well, right now, I'm fairly certain that the arrangement is thus. We are living together but not married."

Is dylan "fairly certain" that this is your current arrangement or does she know for sure what it is?

dewt, it's still not clear to me if you divorced or not. This is the way I see it---if you were common law married for all those years and did nothing to divorce, then you are still married. You wouldn't be the first person to act as if the marriage was over when it really wasn't--plenty of people act like they are divorced and "move on" before their divorce is final or before it is even started. Plenty of those people recognize their error and then get back to the basics of marriage until and unless they decide to end the marriage and then actually DO the divorce. I understand why I don't know whether or not you're married, but I just don't get why YOU don't know.

Btw, even if you are just living together without marriage of any kind, I think my idea could be modified to signify when you are living "together" (even if in a holding pattern for now) and when living "together" is in the PROCESS of ending. There would be an indication that life was going to drastically change and you both would have time to adjust your plans of doing your personal work to accomodate those new terms. And, until a six-month notice was given, you would both be able to do your own work without the threat that the rug could be pulled out from under you at any moment.

You said:
"What I do fear is that I will become so discouraged by the lack of progress in our lives together that I will give up and ask her to leave. Right now I feel like that point is approaching fairly quickly."

dewt, would you put up new drywall or even paint your living room if there was a wrecking ball that MIGHT take out your living room on a moment's notice or with no notice at all? Would you start painting if you could trust that your living room would be there unless you were given notice that it would be gone in six months?

I should probably tell you what prompted me to see if we can get clear on your current marital status and living arrangement. If we know what your current status is, then we could figure out what would signify that your current status was in the process of changing. You make general statements about your committment, dedication, etc, but you also make SPECIFIC statements that make me think you might be outta there tonight, tomorrow, or next week. You made such a statement in a post not too long before I read dylan's post on that other thread that prompted me to start this thread to you. I was going to ask you about what I was reading between the lines of your one post, but then I saw dylan's and decided to yell at you instead <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .

Is any of this making sense? It might not. What's in my head is probably not getting through the keyboard.

I just read your two issues.

If I were in dylan's position, I wouldn't have gotten a job yet either. It would be nothing against you or against the marriage, it would be because it was the lesser of two sucky situations should you bail with no notice. I have also wondered about this--how is it that you could support you and mini but can't support all three of you? I realize that the grocery bill goes up as does the water bill and electricity bill, but is it really that much?

I understand what you're saying about the results of her affair during the past year. I also believe that you do not have a clue as to the damage you did during that same year. I would love to see you focus on repairing the damage you did as a BS, including addressing your part in the state of the marriage issues that were present before Dylan's dewt-approved PA that ended up leading to an EA also (that neither one of you saw coming).

By your own admission, you didn't do much about your part in the state of the marriage issues that were present prior to your PA (not also EA) five years ago. That's where a BS is told to start--with their part in the state of the marriage issues. How are you doing with those? What specific changes have you made in yourself regarding those issues?

Not trying to get on you dewt---just trying to get you to take your focus off of what you're not getting and get it onto what you can DO that might create a situation that enables dylan to meet your ENs too.

Ok, I'm gonna need to read this over a time or two and digest...

I may not get a chance to post tonight as I'm working on a gift for my older son and it may very well take all night...

John

LovingBoundries,

Please excuse the delay in replying...

I have had a lot going on here lately and haven't had the block of time required...

I'm not dodging... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

John

Phew... ok, I've got a few minutes... Thanks for your patience.

I can see what you are saying about the marriage liscence helping to make things clearer. Honestly though, I have a definite view on when I've been married/separated/divorced with Dylan.

I do think your idea about specifying a procedure for a 'divorce' so that everybody is reading from the same page.

The fact is that right now, Dylan and I are not married. We are divorced.

I hope to re-win her heart and heal this family, but I am starting from square one. Heck, in a lot of ways, I'm starting from worse than square one...

I need help developing a plan for that. The reason you started this thread...

You were upset at me for something that Dylan wrote... I read that same thing, and it hit me like a wrecking ball...

One one hand, I could not deny what she's saying...

On the other hand, I'm sitting here thinking that for years she's being my Goddess... I've worshiped her... How could she feel these things???

Clearly, somewhere along the way I've missed something crucial... I need help with that, because somewhere along the way... well, I've missed something crucial.

dewt