LM,

Since I've read your post and got to the part about why you chose your name, I keep whistling "Sweet Georgia Brown" in my head!! Thanks loads, buddy!!! LOL!

Actually, I loved Meadowlark Lemon, too! And I am glad he is the reason for your name. For a while I thought you chose it because you thought you chose a "lemon" for a wife, hence, lemonman. I'm happy to know that is not the case!

Though you may argue your wife is a lemon (or, as you say, had character flaws), and it may very well be the case, I keep rereading your post over and thinking, what if?

Don't get ahead of me, amigo. I fully support your decision to divorce. But consider a few things with me, will you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong>I told my wife, that I would do anything that she ever desired to save this marriage (including quitting medicine) if she gave me her word that she would NEVER see the OM again and have no contact. IN hindsight I now know this was irrational and desperate behavior on my part. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You threw your heart and soul into recovery, anyone can see that. So I am wondering, what part did you think was irrational and desperate? The part where you told her you would even quit medicine? Or the part where you actually believed she would be able to establish NC right away?

What if your thinking had been more along the lines of accepting that your wife had feelings for OM and that it would take time for her to sort them out? Do you think you might be still working on the marriage today? Do you think she would have come to her senses?

There isn't a BS alive who doesn't want NC from the get-go. And yet it rarely happens. I understand why we want this, but are we setting ourselves up for dissapointment (especially in cases where the affair is nowhere near its end)? Is demanding NC right off the bat unrealistic in most cases?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong>SOmething was "not right", but I told myself that it was my paranoia. Remaining married was more paramount than my self dingity and self respect.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uggh. The paranoia. Awful stuff it is. I surmise what you are saying here is that you ignored the signs that the affair was ongoing, like so many do, putting your self-dignity and respect aside, all for the purpose of preserving your marriage.

Was it that fateful night in the ER that changed this for you, LM? Did you suddenly take back your self-respect and dignity by deciding, on that night, that the marriage should end? Or was it the awful pain that drove you to make the decision to divorce, and the self-respect came on the heels of it, as a byproduct?

What if you could have found it within you to accept the circumstances of that awful night as "par for the course" and not the end all? Was there a part of you that ever said, "this is worse than I thought... saving this marriage could be harder than I realized"? Or did you go straight to "this sucks and I'm not gonna do this anymore"?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong> For the rest of my life I will never forget this moment and the look of shear and utter sorrow in my wife's eyes.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What did the sorrow in her eyes says to you LM? Were you ever able to discuss it? Was did her "sorry" mean to you? Sorry that she got caught and hurt you and it was over? Or was she sorry, perhaps, that she was weak and went against her word? They are very different things. Assuming that you had already made the decision to divorce at that point, what if you had taken the time to find out what caused the pain in her that you were seeing? Was there anything she could have said that would have made you soften on your stance to end the marriage if NC was broken?

Concerning the surgery on OM, was that the turning point where you felt your wife had put you "in a situation to lose my career"? Do you think it is far-fetched for me to say that you were the one who put yourself in a situation to lose your career by operating on OM, not your wife having the accident?

You did not have to operate on him. You knew the risks. You took them. But I just don't think you can blame your wife for that risk. I am sure she never thought she'd be facing you that night, a gash in her head, and OM laying near death, and that you would have to make a decision on taking him to surgery yourself or calling in another surgeon. Not a 2x4, LM, just a view from a different vantage point.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong>My wife looked at me eye to eye and lied to me again and again and again. She placed her affair before everything else in this sacred life and for that I can never forgive her.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LM, this is the most damaging thing, the lies, the utter destruction of trust. The effects are deep and long-lasting but for many here on MB, there has been a rebuilding despite the lies. Do you really thing that you can never forgive her? What if you could put your hurt aside as a mental exercise and forgive her, right now, for all that she did? Would you be better off? Would your anger and malcontent be eased?

I am not asking all of these "what if" questions to make you second guess your decision to divorce. I'm not even asking you to answer them (bet you're happy about that, eh?!) I just ask them because I see that people have different ways of handling pain and varying abilities to forgive. Your way of dealing with pain was to lay down a set of rules (NC) that if broken would be the end of the marriage. You protected you self-respect by deciding to end the marriage when NC was broken. The dramatics notwithstanding, I think you would have done the same had you found she had phoned him or met him for lunch.

You question your decision to operate on OM that night, to this day. Do you ever question whether acting in this black-and-white manner was the right way to go? Do you ever wonder if you needed to see things in more shades of gray, allow for contingencies, that you could still work on the marriage and still keep your dignity?

OK, enough what ifs.... let's change it up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong>I think self esteem PLAYS SO much a role in these situations. I think many people here think so litle of themselves that they will tolerate near anything to "stay married". Their marriage defines their life. They fear too much on being on their own.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This shoe can be worn just as easily by the WS, lemonman. Character issues are certainly a cause of many an affair, but so to, I believe, is the lack of self-esteem ON THE PART OF THE WS. I do not lack self-esteem. I did not and do not feel my marriage defines me. I did not and do not feel I need my husband nearly as much as he needs me. So I ask, could your wife's adultery been rooted more in low self-esteem on her part, or do you still believe it was the result of her low character? Again, you don't have to answer.... just food for thought.

Okay, enough. I've written near as much as you did. Hope you got something out of it. Sorry if I made you crazy!!!

~ Snow

(Edited for clarity. Twice.)

<small>[ December 06, 2004, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: Snowbelle ]</small>

Lemmonman
Seen you around on threads. Never knew until now who you were. You steeped outside your own personal interest to do your best for that man. Hold your head high. You are a true professional.
And you are a very kind man in your making sure that those children have a decent christmas.

I think that your decision to divorse was the right one for you. You had already tried to recover and the writing was on the wall for you when you discovered the continuation of the affair. you said your wife still speaks to him and he is now getting divorced, but are they still involved? It reads like everyone has lost so much here. You however have gained the opportunity to grow as a person and make you life a better one.

I believe that a decision as to whether or not to continue in a marriage is one's own to make. I don't think it is my place to foce whatever opinion I have onto someone else. Sometimes I almost feel like telling someone to just give up and move on, and other times I fell like trying to convince someone to give it another shot. But it is not my place to try and do this. I think this site is all about trying to support each other in what an individual is trying to achieve for their marriage.

I happen to be one of the people here who have managed to revover my marriage. That doesn't mean that I think that all marriages should be saved at all costs. In fact my Dday occured before I knew anything about this site. And once I got the full story I was out of there. I had no desire to stay in this marriage. i didn't hate husband. I just couldn't see how I could continu in a relationship which I had imagined was a whole lot different than it really was.

When I think about it, I think it was the fact that I truly had decided the marriage was over that it ultimately survived. I had let go. I resigned myself to the fact that he would be with OW. I think that my H could see that I was gone. That I was not begging and pleading. Nor was I sweraing etc.. I just wanted to know where he was at. There was no fighting, just sad resignation. It was he who begged me to stay and in those early days he who wooed me back in.

So while I am a "success story" I am not a good example of MB plans. I have however learnt a lot about what makes a happier marriage from this site and it has helped me enormously. my biggest problems in recovery have benn dealing with my own thought and reaction. That almost ended it later on and then I did beg, because he was leaving because of how I was treating him and I knew that I had been awful.

So I find it hard to tell people to Plan A. I feel like a hypocrit as I didn't do it myself. However, I feel as this board is here to promote Harley's principals that trying them is not a bad option. I do see value in it now. I see it as a chance to hhave the WS see an alternative to the OP. To try and fill the WS LB before going to Plan B. Unfortunately it seems to go on far too long in a lot of cases and people endure more than they should. I guess in my case I had been trying to improve myself before I discovered the affair.

I know one thing. If my H were to do this again I will not stay in this marriage. Mainly because I know I would never be able to trust him again. And I don't want to live like that.

Thanks for sharing, it has made me think
C&S

And by the way
I don't see sucess on here as whether or not a marriage survives or not. I see it as a sad, shaken individual gaining the self awareness, growth and courage to go on and build a great life for themselves, irrespective of whether or not the relationship survives. lokk at Believer for example. There is one strong woman. I see her as a sucess. But her relationship is no longer.
C&S

Lemonman,

I'm coming out of my hole briefly to comment, as I'm deep in the throws of packing as I am closing on my new house next week. Anyway, I have rarely been so moved as when I read your initial posting. Not only do you have a powerful story to tell, but you also tell it very well.

Truth is stranger than fiction, isn't it? I have nothing but admiration for you and what you did. It may not have seemed like much to you at the time, but then most "heros" say that whatever it was they did was the only real choice they had. To me that says that it is a person's CHARACTER that comes out and takes over in emergencies. Heros are people with extraordinary strength of character and integrity. That makes you a hero.

I can't imagine how you - and the rest of the BS's - could ever overcome the trust issues. My first H cheated on me - I suspected, but didn't find out for sure until he had already moved out, and I had already realized I didn't miss him at all. So, I never had to make any decisions about trust with him - and in my present situation, there is no 'A'. I have asked myself many times if I would be willing to Plan A or Plan B if I were a BS - I really don't think I would be able to do it. I've thought of doing a Plan B - but for returning to a marriage commitment, not to giving up an 'A'.

Anyhow, take care - thanks for sharing and for contributing to this board. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Snowbelle:

Thanks for your comments. I will try and address some of your questions. I think your questions are certainly thought provoking and have forced me to think alot about this.

1. You threw your heart and soul into recovery, anyone can see that. So I am wondering, what part did you think was irrational and desperate? The part where you told her you would even quit medicine? Or the part where you actually believed she would be able to establish NC right away?

Well, the part about quitting medicine for my marriage was irrational. I don't think giving up my dreams and livelihood would have been healthy for ME..and thus that would have been unhealthy for a marriage. Yes, I would have certainly compromised some here though. It was more of a plea for my wife to see how serious I was about saving our marriage.

2. What if your thinking had been more along the lines of accepting that your wife had feelings for OM and that it would take time for her to sort them out? Do you think you might be still working on the marriage today? Do you think she would have come to her senses?


I don't know the answer to this question. SHe has a lot of "history" with the OM and I think it went so much more "dysfunctionally" deeper than I ever believed. I know that to be true to myself, I could NEVER accept that she continued to have feelings for OM and me stay with her. THis is just the way I feel. I know that I COULD not do this. IN this, I don't think I could answer your question as I know that I couldn't do it.

3. There isn't a BS alive who doesn't want NC from the get-go. And yet it rarely happens. I understand why we want this, but are we setting ourselves up for dissapointment (especially in cases where the affair is nowhere near its end)? Is demanding NC right off the bat unrealistic in most cases?

For me, it was a deal breaker. We are always talking about boundaries here, and this was one of mine. Yeah, maybe it was unreaistic, but INFIDELITY to me is UNREALISTIC to ever consider, so I guess it all goes with the territory. I know that it is not "MB esque", but it is my boundary nonetheless.

4. Was it that fateful night in the ER that changed this for you, LM? Did you suddenly take back your self-respect and dignity by deciding, on that night, that the marriage should end? Or was it the awful pain that drove you to make the decision to divorce, and the self-respect came on the heels of it, as a byproduct?

God, that is a great question <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . I don't know. I guess to me, it was the fact that I would no longer tolerate her affair even if it meant divorcing her. My love for this woman was so much stronger than I ever had for anyone else, and this was a devestating thing for me to have to do. I think the self respect came when I could face that the marriage had to end and I was the one who had to do this, no matter how much this hurt me.

5. What if you could have found it within you to accept the circumstances of that awful night as "par for the course" and not the end all? Was there a part of you that ever said, "this is worse than I thought... saving this marriage could be harder than I realized"? Or did you go straight to "this sucks and I'm not gonna do this anymore"?


ANother great question. This was a combination of both, but MORE the fact that I told myself that I could not tolerate another betrayal. I promised myself that no matter how much I loved her, I would not accept another betrayal. Accepting this as "par for the course" is NOT something I would ever think. It just isn't.

6. What did the sorrow in her eyes says to you LM? Were you ever able to discuss it? Was did her "sorry" mean to you? Sorry that she got caught and hurt you and it was over? Or was she sorry, perhaps, that she was weak and went against her word?

Oh, the sorry was defintely that she got caught and KNEW that it was over then and there. I would like to think her sorrow was for the pain this caused me, but I somehow don't think this was it. SHe knew that her life/our life as we knew it was OVER. She knew the tremendous fallout that would happen (and it did <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> )

7. Was there anything she could have said that would have made you soften on your stance to be good to your word and end it with this second violation of your faith in her?


Honestly SNowbelle, NO. There is no way around this. There is nothing she could have said here. I cannot change the way that I feel about this.

8. Concerning the surgery on OM, was that the turning point where you felt your wife had put you "in a situation to lose my career"? Do you think it is far-fetched for me to say that you were the one who put yourself in a situation to lose your career by operating on OM, not your wife having the accident?

Well, it was my decision to take the OM to the operating room so for that I blame NOONE. It was my decision and to this day I take full responsibility for that decision. I can see your point of my wife having nothing to do with putting me " in a situation to lose my career". Well, the fact is, she was in a car accident with another man (a married man with 2 children) and as fate would have it with the miniscule % of her getting caught and end up in an accident at the hospital that I work at and with me being on trauma call that night..IT Happened. It was her decision to have this affair and as such her actions CONTRIBUTED to this situation for me. IN the end, you are right, I made the decision to do this surgery.

9. What if you could put your hurt aside as a mental exercise and forgive her, right now, for all that she did? Would you be better off? Would your anger and malcontent be eased?


Yes, I agree once again. WHen I was writing this post last night, I think I was opening up a recently healed wound and a lot of my emotions were coming back from how I felt THEN. Today, I think the only way to TRULY Heal is to forgive. However, fo ME, forgive will never mean reconciliate.

10. You question your decision to operate on OM that night, to this day. Do you ever question whether acting in this black-and-white manner was the right way to go? Do you ever wonder if you needed to see things in more shades of gray, allow for contingencies, that you could still work on the marriage and still keep your dignity?


Ugggh...another great question <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . I don't know the answer to this. Honestly, I am a very TYPE A Personality who sees things as black and white. YOu either operate or don't. It has always been drilled into me that you better know what the hell you are doing when you have your hands in someone's chest, etc... THis kind of milatiristic training has always made me make decisions quickly...when in FACT, this isn't always the best tactic. There is no doubt that my training as a surgeon has made me this way. I do see the value of seeing things as "shades of gray" at times. There is alot of growing for me to do....I ACCEPT THIS. I am realizing that I cannot live my life like I am in the operating room having to make hard decisions in a moments time. To be honest with you, I still don't think this could have saved my love for my wife that night. I know that many can never understand my feelings on this, but it is my reality. This is why I have had such a problem with the MB program at times.

I sincerely thank you for your post to me. YOur questions were great and thought provoking for me. I don't even know if I have all the answers to them, as that it part of my "healing". I hope that maybe you got a better glimpse of me through this. Thank you once again for your comments. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM

Thanks for your answers, LM, even though I let you off the hook! I'll leave you with this:


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong>
Today, I think the only way to TRULY Heal is to forgive. However, fo ME, forgive will never mean reconciliate.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Forgiveness is crucial to getting past infidelity, and virtually any emotional pain in our lives that is caused by another person. Forgiveness, IMHO, simply releases them from the debt they owe us for harming us. It is something we give freely and allows us to move on. It does not equate with reconciliation. That is a separate decision altogether.

Take care.

~ Snow

LM,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know that many can never understand my feelings on this, but it is my reality. This is why I have had such a problem with the MB program at times. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I feel the need to defend the MB program abit. Your feelings and your decisions are EXACTLY what the MB program was built for. You are NORMAL and most if not all of the BS's have felt as you have. Most would NOT tolerate a second betrayal unless there where more souls involved, ie children.

All feel the total devastation that you feel/felt. The MB program is not about ignoring this deep seated and normal feelings. They are about examining them as Snow just offered with her well thought and and probing questions, and deciding if one WANTS to try and rebuild. The idea is to make this decision a conscious one rather than a knee jerk one. If the decision is to try and salvage the marriage, then MB offers tools to do that. If it is to end it, then there are things that one should address before departing.

The idea is to lose the baggage as much as possible whether you decide to salvage the marriage or leave it. As someone said Believer is an MB success story and her marriage is ending so is WAT and his marriage ended. You can be as well, no matter what happens to your marriage.

Sorry to burst you bubble LM, but you are not an anethma to MB nor are your feelings or decisions counter to the ideas here. The idea here is for you to learn so that your NEXT relationship will be more successful and that entails among other things you having a better idea of the type of woman you want as a W and not to be naive enough to think that a woman with problems in a previous relationship won't bring them into the next one unless she has done a lot of work on herself.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong>
The idea is to lose the baggage as much as possible whether you decide to salvage the marriage or leave it. As someone said Believer is an MB success story and her marriage is ending so is WAT and his marriage ended. You can be as well, no matter what happens to your marriage.


JL </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES, I understand this now, hence the reason that I still post here when in fact I am never going to rebuild my marriage. I understand what you are saying, but I still contend that a lotof Harley's principles do more dmamage than good to a lot of well meanining BS. Just my opinion. I will never change your mind on that and vice versa, so debating the merits of the details of Plan A or whatever is not worth it. IN the end, I agree. Personal Recovery for me will be my salvation from this...not saving my marriage.

Hey Lemonman, it's my turn to write to you after your amazing story. Every time I think I've read something on MB that would be a great soap opera story, yet another one takes its place. Sorry to say I think your infidelity story is up there with the best of them. Thank you for sharing it with us and revealing more of yourself in the process.

I wrote to you once before and I apologize if I'm repeating anything that I wrote to you previously.
I might be like you in the sense that I have very black and white thinking concerning As. I've always hated them. I have had the misfortune of knowing both BSs and WSs throughout my adult life. I agree with you that they impact not only the couple involved, but many others also. H's family experienced As which put a lot of strain in our own M over the years. But those stories are soap operas in themselves. My H very clearly knew how I felt about As. I always, without a doubt knew I would dump him if he betrayed me, yet here I am. Ten months from the beginning of the truth-telling, and hopefully on the road to recovery. My most recent awareness through therapy is this. I am beginning to accept that my H had an A, but now I need to accept that I would stay with my H who had an A.

Concerning MB and As. I was led to MB within several weeks of d-day. I believe I was led to this site, and I also am pretty sure H and I wouldn't be together if not for MB. During the 1st several months and more into this hell I went to MB for support, to vent, and as my command central. I was fortunate in that my H pretty much gave up the OW cold turkey while still at the height of in-love. Puke! Plus he was never nasty towards me, and has felt huge remorse. He has a small business and she was his office manager. When I found out about the EA part I told him she had to go or we were over. He fired her the next day. He also lost his business partner because of the A at the same time. This put his business in a huge turmoil, but I would not waver. She had to work for him another month. He made sure he was nevr alone with her. It was hell. Two weeks after she was gone he called her and met with her for "closure". I believe him when he says they didn't screw, but I'm sure there were hugs, kisses, ILYs, and "this is so hard" talk. He called her every other day for 2 weeks until his guilt got the best of him and he confessed. After that he stopped being the lier he had become.

Why am I writing this to you? Maybe because I know you don't get this whole MB philosophy. Maybe because I followed it even though so many times I wanted to chuck the whole thing. More than a few times I was very unMB-like during H's withdrawal. I hated that he missed the "B" who was my enemy and the enemy of my children. I've never had an enemy before. I hated the fact that he experienced in-love with her, and worse in-love sex with her. I still have an awful time with the sexual betrayal. Even though he didn't want to go back to her I can't tell you how many times I would say to him, "If you had such a beautiful R with her, then why don't you just go to her and follow your bliss." People here couldn't believe I was telling him to leave. Somehow the man never left, and then I had to face the fact I was stuck with him. As people who have gotten to know me here will attest, I am probably not the easiest of BSs to deal with. I have been brutal with my H in having him reveal all details. I am a need to know everything BS. I guess you could say that I want to recover, but he needs to meet me in the process, and so far he has. But I had to be the friggin lighthouse for many months to help bring him out of the fog, which I believe he is out of now. THAT is where MB is so helpful.

I have learned that As can happen in good Ms. Our M was pretty darn good. If you don't know my story we experienced a series of sickness and deaths, H's dad's death sent him into a MLC, and unfortunately for the 1st time in our M there was a predatory OW and great opportunity. Every factor that I've read that could make us vulnerable were operating in our M. I'm reading "Torn Asunder" now and that book has helped me understand H's internal vulnerability brought on by an abusive father. I'm not making excuses, just trying to understand.

What has always bothered me is the choice point before the A really begins. Before we can really say the WS is in fog. Steve Harley has given me several examples to explain this whole addiction theory, which I have trouble with. I get it intellectually, but struggle with it in my heart. I think I may be starting to get it. One analogy Steve gave me is the frog one, which you may have heard. Frogs don't like hot water. If you put them in cold water and put the pot on the stove, the frog won't jump out because the water heats up gradually. He doesn't realize he's dying until it's too late. The other one is someone who says they still have good judgment after 3 drinks, but won't have a 4th drink. However, their judgement is screwed up after the 3rd and so they have a 4th and a 5th. By then he/she might get in their car and kill someone.

These As are slippery slopes. I think there are people who have character who have an A, like my H. The attraction and feelings begin and they don't know what to do, and so they end up doing all the wrong things. As Steve has told us, "It's a failure to protect your weaknesses." My H didn't eeven know what his weaknesses were. I never thought I could ever measure up to an in-love fantasy. Now my H appears to look at the A as the biggest mistake of his life, and has no feelings for the OW if he is being truthful with me. If anything he looks at her as a poison in his life. The biggest thing he is dealing with is what he did to me, others who were effected, and the loss of his integrity. He became a very lost man and if it wasn't for MB I might not have been able to stick it out while he tried to find himself again.

I am fortunate that my self-esteem is high, so even though I was devstated, I never lost that. I feel so much for the BS who suffers from low self-esteem. Lately I've been so worried about BSs who are suicidal. I don't think I could ever go through this again. However, there are people like Stillwed and Foreverhers who stuck with their Ss and now have good Ms. I guess we all have different tolerance levels.

Truthfully I'm not sure why I wrote all of this. Probably way too much info. Just another MB perspective.

I wish you the very best. You are obviously a very good and loving man. If anything these MB principles, along with so many other sources out there on As, will help all of us have better Rs in the Rs we're in or in Rs in the future.

Take Care LM, and keep on posting. This site is a place of support and healing. CV

I don't have time to read the whole story now, but I have to say that you have character. You had to take him to the OR-what choice did you have. There is a special place in heaven for you and I believe that your wife was emotionally damaged when you met her and that maybe you were trying to rescue her. What smacks me in the face about your story is that you are too good for her and she is a fool for not seeing that, therefore she has got to be damaged. The OM is her drug right now. How foolish she is. There is a special place for you. Hugs-Jersey Girl

<small>[ December 07, 2004, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: new jersey ]</small>

Lemonman
Thank you for sharing your story..and about writing a book/making a movie..I think the Lifetime channel may have already one it...

I apologize if I am making repetive statements as I only read the first page of posts, but after survivng an affair while trying to repair a doomed marriage, I agree with you. I look back and wonder why I stayed with my stbx almost 5 years after finding out about the affair, and I've sadly come to the conclusion that it was because I wanted to have a family and home. I thought that included him. It doesn't. He never made our residence, a home. He never made our relationship a family. And he never was anything akin to a father. I kept waiting on the day that he would wake up and become what I expected him to be. I was one of the people you wrote about-low self esteem with a great need to belong...belong to anybody-even to someone who didn't deserve me. Sad. Very sad.

Maybe there are people out there who truly make a mistake and get involved with someone they shouldn't, but I believe in my stbx's case it too was a case of absense of character. Not a lack-there's just none there. I know now that my life will be truly richer without him. It should have been richer years ago...many years ago. I saw him through my expectations and lived in denial as to what a truly rotten person he is. He has many people fooled including himself.

When I think of what he has lost, I wonder how he can stand himself but then I remember he doesn't have a clue as to what he lost. I lost too...I lost a miserable life and found new possibilities.
I never wanted to grow old alone but the alternative makes loneliness so appealing.

I think you were wise to realize it was over when it was over. I admire you for taking part in saving this man's life and wonder what goes on in his brain when he considers how close he was to death. Now that should be made into a movie...

Lemmonman,

Meritorious!!! Instrumentation, at it's finest. Perfect channel, kept your code for the Great Physician to work through! True child of GOD, true humanitarian, true professional& true human.

Your dropping your mask meant-being your yourself means so much to me! Thankyou for taking a risk, sharing your truth, pain, journey, the risk, the pressure, the duty, the sacrifice, BEING HUMAN-JUST U.

I can only imagine the emotionality underneath-surrealism, split second erecting an instant Berlin wall.Placing all prejudices aside, swirling thoughts, save a life. Must of felt like an complete out of body experince.

Grace under fire, and outstanding ability to follow God's command. To love our enemies. Wow!

EXTRAORDINARY PRESSURE--Grace under fire--MERCY, COMPASSSION!!! I can't imagine the sweat, train of thoughts running through your mind. Find the e-brake. Wow...

I understand,relate on many levels. Not with surgery....I could feel the weight,gravity, of every emotion, resonating within. I felt the knots in my stomach with your every word.

I am deeply sorry& sympathize deeply with your distress, betrayal, required to go above, beyond.

My x took me down quite a ride, took everything in my core-to advert a great tradgey, save his life on several occasions, save my kids, my life. Restraint, walking the razor's edge.

Yes, I can empathize deeply. I understand moral code. I understand rage, I understand self-control, I understand how deeply sick a human mind can become, I understand the push& pull not to take matters into my own hands, under no circumstances, I understand disconnect& let go.

Everyone has their own endurance limits, those limits mean walking away-closing the door is forgiveness. Some people well I have discovered are egregious-permanently damaged.

Took me monthes to collect& connect with myself, write my story for my lawyer. I just shook, vibrated, re-living out the entire ordeal trauma, vomitted, cried, barely could write it out. I have high tolerance for pain.

Took me almost a year to write it out. Actually, terrifying-meant reconnecting with parts I wanted to go away.

I am in agreement- EN needs can be an excuse-- Definately character issues.Some do just get swept away by the hyper-exciteablity of it all, their own vulnerabilty. Some people are just incompatible, others rudely insensitive, others dangerous.

Some make a mistake, recover their moral compass, do not repeat, rebuild their love/trust for their spouse. Mistake is entirely different than a free wheelin license to live out a libertine lifestyle.

Others it's attention drama, or others revenge, others seriously damaged. Fear, ignorance. But it all boils down to CHOICE-OWERNSHIP.

Sabats are wonderful--opens up myriad other dimensions!?! Teaching med in France, UK humms such a nice ring... Recovery comes in many forms.

Problem with adultery it consumes so much time. Hazard to one's well being-zero of experince. Counter productive.

Breathe easy& PLEASE WRITE SOME MORE!!!

Warmest heart felt hugs! I feel better for you, and many else here! Huge step here-leap of faith-leap over the fears-leap over the shadows, and leap into calmer& saner times to come! Where life becomes pleasant& savory again.

In your court!!! Take gentle care!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

What an amazing story. Thank you for sharing.

I too have never been a MB follower. I believe that to save or end a marriage is totally up to those in the marriage. I know at different times in my life I am able to handle stress at different levels. AS a former BW (first marriage) I did opposite of MB I Love busted my XH right out of my home (Threw him out) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I was separated for several months while HE planned A ME. Eventually with counseling I decided to give him another chance. I never really trusted him again, in other words It was never the same. And no it was NOT better.

I came to MB as I have said before because I feel my H ignores me. I have used radical honesty to the point I told him I would get a BF
that worked <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I actually Identified with your XW at some point in your story (except I dont have an X that I even think twice about). My H is obsessed with his work, beyond a workaholic more of an adrenline junkie I think. He cant balance.

Momto3boys and I have become friends in these last few months. I have been accused of being her cheerleader (protector) we have share our plights.
I support her decision to move on with her life, just as I supported her decision NOT to make a decision while her father was dying. She knows that I am not a MBer in that sense. I could NEVER plan A (as evidenced in my first marriage).
I just believe in the golden rule "do unto others"
I think that is the basis of MBers if you AND your spouse treat one another with respect and Emotional needs are met than the likely hood of an affair is slim (not impossible,I agree with the character reference you have made).

I seriously wish the support groups for Physician spouses still existed. I think now with so many Physician's marrying other professionals who also work there was just not a need and they have been done away with.
I know years ago I belong to a University womans club (homemakers who had graduated from a University). It was fun but I have since went back to work just to come back home again (another baby) That club is no longer in my area.

Gads, ya think this was all about me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Good luck Lemonman when you do find a new person in your life, make sure she has support of some sort (understanding the amount of alone time being a Physicians SO) even if its another Physician wife. I have a huge understanding being a degreed RN but it does not change the fact I am a wife <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> and even with kids it can be very lonely.

By the way you did good with OM's family. I am sure it will bring happiness to them.
Happy holidays
SOM

I believe that the telling of one's story is a big step in healing. It's not so much about the details, the heroic acts, the cowardly choices, but allowing oneself to open up and be vulnerable again to other human beings. I felt so powerless, so vulnerable, so angry, so sick, when I had to deal with all the fallout from my xWS's affair. I sure as heck was not going to open myself up and start to trust anyone, in any capacity, ever again!....But when I shut down to the "bad", painful, powerless stuff, I shut down to the good stuff, too. Some people choose to stay in that "safe" place. So be it. For me, the real heroism, power, healing comes from our willingness to step back out there, share our stories, connect with one another..and let others back into our lives... when everything in us shouts "No! Don't be a fool again! Shut up!"

So I want to congratulate you Lemonman for having the courage to tell your story, to start to connect with others again...as vulnerable and scary as that can feel. And perhaps that is part of your giving to the OM's wife and children.
An affirmation that after all the pain and crap we've been through, we take the risk of reaching out and connecting to others and their needs, once more. The Hero/Heroine's Journey.

<small>[ December 08, 2004, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: heartfailure ]</small>

Lemonman, I am in awe of your story, your strength, and your character. Your strength will take your life to a higher level. I feel confident to say that another "love of your life" will come your way, and you will build the life you dream of with a new family.

You will always feel "something" towards your WW. She was very special to you, and awakened love in your heart at one time. That can't be taken away. And over the years, the "details" of the tragic end will fade into the background, as lifes new paths open up to you.

I can't help but feel for her, in a very sad way. Is she still with MM by the way? Has he healed well? Still wearing the bag?

Thank you for being kind to OM's family during this holiday season. Your kindness has brought tears to my eyes.

Maybe one day I'll put my story here. My story is old though, and I'm bored with it (that's a good thing, I was anally obsessive about it for years).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by JanetS:
<strong>
I can't help but feel for her, in a very sad way. Is she still with MM by the way? Has he healed well? Still wearing the bag?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you for your kind post. My STBXW is "probably" still involved with the OM in "some" way. I have had to detach myself from all of that, so I can't quite be sure...and to be honest don't really care that much. Her mother (my MIL) seems to think she is "not" with him, but I think that is all part of her MIL denial. She wants so much for her daughter to be still married to me and to not have done the things she has done. I feel alot for her pain over this. This situation has in no uncertain terms been devestating for her...absolutely devestating. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> For that, I am most sorry for filing the divorce.

As for the OM, he has had his colosotmy bag removed (not by me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , and has healed "well" all things considering. His wife is divorcing him (they have 2 small children) and he has lost much credibility in this area with regards to his job (he is a pharmaceutical salesman)--> you can imagine how Doctors would treat him when he comes calling to push his meds. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

He has had his share of bad karma, and for now I don't feel hate for him anymore...but rather pitty. As for my STBXW, she has her own struggles. The aftermath of this has left her also in devestation. I still at times think she is in "denial" of things. Our divorce mediation has gone well and was not nearly the hassle I thought it would be. I think someday soon I am going to sit with her and truly have a "heart to heart" and forgive her for her part in all of this. I know that I said I never could forgive her, but I think now I can and that I have to. I will NEVER reconcile with her BUT I can forgive her. I know that I need this to heal and so does she. It has taken me a long time to be able to do this, but I know it has to be done. I don't hate her, and ofcourse a part of me will ALWAYS love her...I just can no longer love her the way a husband SHOULD love his wife.

Thanks for listening.

Hello LM,

I'm not sure if I ever posted to you.If I did it may have been once or twice.It's easy to keep track of the stories you frequently post to but not to everyone.The numbers here keep climbing.

Well,I haven't cried in a long time but your post made me do so.Don't feel badly about that.When I looked at Binders photo of him and his two children and dog,I fell apart too.Looking at the photo's on the MB Photo thread is very painful for me.It reminds me of the childrens faces on milk cartons.I feel so profoundly sad for all the pain going on and actually putting faces with stories makes it all the more real.That's why I am not sure I can ever post my picture there.It would soldify that I too am a victim/survivor? of adultery.

Anyway,I know there has been quite a stream of lengthy responses to you and I have read most of them but I just wanted to say that I can understand why you are ending your marriage.I too made a decision many months ago that my WH's continued choice to put everything else ahead of me,our marriage and family was no longer acceptable to me.I gave my WH what I thought was just time to make the changes necessary for us to be together and for our children and not to be another statistic of D but to this very day,he refuses to do so,which is why I made the decision to file.Like you,I feel that my marriage,although extremely important to me,was not all of my being.I knew that I had more self worth and I deserved more than what I was being put through(more about this issue on noodles good fences thread),so did my children.I worked hard at it because I knew deep down in my heart,I wanted to say I gave it my all.I know you don't agree with all the concepts here but I am grateful for MB and for confirming my desire to try....after 20 years together and 14 years of marriage,best friends,etc,I felt I did owe it to my marriage and my children to do this,despite all the pain.

Being an RN,what was so disturbing to me reading your post was the fact that you operated on the OM.As you are aware,treating relatives or friends or anyone known to you in an "intimate" or close way is usually forbidden,at least in all the places where I worked and for the obvious reasons.The emotion tied up in the person laying before you can drastically alter all perception and care.I don't honestly know how you pulled it off,taking this man to the OR and managing through it all.I will never know,I am not you.I am not suggesting that you are a "bad" person for doing this,by all means no.Just dumbfounded how you did it.If you were the only ER doc on call there,well,sometimes life throws you into the most volatile and challenging of situations.I think that it really has affected me reading it,that you did this and I don't suppose I know why exactly.It may be that you suffered such a horrific trauma of adultery and then to be presented with the man that was co-conspirator,needing medical care.That begs the question...WHY? Why YOU?

I also can sympathize with the moment you knew it was over for you.I had a moment too like that many months ago.It was the second "false recovery" that I told him it was over.He knew that after the first time he failed,he got one more chance and if he lied to me and kept in contact with the homewrecker,that was it.And so it was.He again,placed all the importance on this wretched woman and that was it.Done.The feeling washed over me like a cold acid bath.And I have been trying to recover from this loss ever since.

Anyway,thank you for sharing your story.I agree that even though I do not have marital recovery,I will most defintely have personal recovery.I must go on,for me and for my darling daughters.

O

Octobergirl
It must be state to state laws that "forbid" a Physician from treating family and friends.

My H delivered our children, he actually saved our son (tripled tight nucual cord). I too am an RN and know several Physicians that have treated their families. I know another Physician that also delivered his own twins (planned).

There is a certain adreneline that kicks in that makes clinicians kick into a gear it makes the situation of the patient not "who" the patient is top priority. This has happened to me many times at work.

Lemonman did what he was trained to do. OM was lucky LM was on call. If it had been another Physician, he may not be around.

Forgiveness is definately a road you should travel. I'm sure it will do your WW a lot of good, but in this situation (probably in ALL situations) the bigger benefit from forgiveness comes to the one who gives it.

Forgiveness is something that should not be rushed though. I gave it once, too early, and it came back to bite me when I realized I still had too much rage inside of me to truly be ready to forgive. Yet, it is a very worthy goal.

When hearing your story of the second d-day, I think I have only one other time heard a story with so much drama. This story made the news...I heard it second hand, so I hope I have it right.

On 9-11 a woman was watching the events on tv, and in a panic called to her husband's cellphone (he worked in one of the towers). Asked him "are you alright?". "Yes, why?" "Because of the plane in your building" "What plane?".

Turns out the man did NOT go straight to the office when he left home that morning, but went to his OW's place, and was cozying up to her, and had no idea what was happening in Manhattan.

My understanding is that a divorce followed!

Now that too is a "Movie of the Week".

a naughty little thought I had Lemonman....

maybe a little slip of the scalpel while in the area of his ... you know ... nothing big, just perhaps a little nip on the nipper requiring a stich or two (that would be a bit uncomfortable on him, yes?)

It's not a funny situation at all, of course, but in life's traumas it is healthy, down the road, to make light and find humour. As they say "Humour is the best medicine". And no, I didn't spell humor wrong, I'm Canadian, and we use the English spelling of words...like cheque (check), neighbourhood (neighborhood), trunk (boot). LOL

<small>[ December 09, 2004, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: JanetS ]</small>