LM,

It was interesting to re-read this. I can see you softening up in your recent posts. You've come a long way.

-AD

Hi LM.
I just noticed your email reply. Thank you.
I wrote this and was going to send it but decided to copy and paste it here instead.

"Thanks LM, I really don't have any questions to email you, just go to MB to YOUR STORY. I asked you some questions there. Also, there were several more replies from the LM fan club.lol

A lot of people have read your amazing story...ummm there should be a beter word than STORY....Saga? Adventure? Tale?
Oh well, I guess STORY works.

By the way, you commented which side of the fence I am on.
If you read what I wrote on cardsonly's thread called something like "Help,getting over online affair", you will see my struggle.

He (OM) took up a LOT of space in my heart (still does even in his absence) and it is hard to fill it now without him in my life. Sorry, if that sounds cavelier but it is just the way it is.

Being married does not make us IMMUNE to affairs of the heart. (But it sure sure should!)

Thanks Lem...well, just for being you. I think I am a hopeless romantic because I would have liked to have seen you and your wife rekindle that first spark you had for one another. (I hope you have found someone else to fill your heart.)

In this world there are sheep (followers) and goats (leaders that have a mind of their own)

THAT'S YOU, DR. LEMONMAN "

Lem,

This is an inspiring story. It sounds to me like you knew who you were from the start, almost. I am wondering if before your XW had her affair, you felt or thought that any infidelity would be a deal buster and there would be no second chance.

I ask this because before I became a BS, I would have bet anything that it would have ended my marriage. Well, it didn't, but I would be lying if I didn't admit that I often feel that maybe it should have.

I believe that some of us are not actually capable of moving on with their own personal recovery while still in a marriage where infidelity occurred.

To clarify my situation, my FWH had a lengthly EA which became a PA. He claims that he never loved OW, but did have "feelings" for her as a long time friend. One might call it a fondness.

The A died a natural death before D-day and NC was not a problem. My FWH loves me, always has, never doubted it, and never planned on any long term R with OW.

I know that I would not have been able to conduct a successful plan A. The patience of some of the folks here is amazing. Fortunately, for me, I never had to deal with Fog or withdrawl. He came to the conclusion on his own that he had made the biggest mistake of his life and if he didn't get out of it, his life would be ruined.

Guess what I am saying is that I 100% agree with


For me and FWH it is ZERO TOLERANCE, and contact, ever is the deal breaker. Any relationship in the future that makes me feel uncomfortable in any way will be a deal breaker.

This has been the single most painful and difficult thing in my life. No way would I ever do it again. Heck, I am not even sure it has been worth it.

Does that make sense?

Whome - I feel the same way. In my past anyone who lied or decieved me I walked away from. Why I choose to stay now is beyound me.


:emmonman - I just wanted to say I feel you are starting to heal. Being able to write what you have been thro may be a start for you. I do hope so.

Yes, without a doubt I would answer "yes". In a million and one years, I would not have ever believed that I would forgive an act as cruel, despicable and morally reprehensible as "infidelity".....but as many have also done here....I did forgive and try and "reconcile".

I never thought that I was capable of giving a "second" chance. But I did. At least to me it was a "second chance".

FOR ME PERSONALLY, tolerating multiple false recoveries, multiple affairs ("multiple to ME means "MORE" THAN "ONE" "ACT" OF INFIDELITY), Long term affairs, etc..would not be a "second chance" to me.....I don't see that as a "second chance". To ME, more than a "second chance" like above would be a DEAL BREAKER, and would be more than I COULD HANDLE.

When it happened AGAIN.....I had no choice but to follow my heart and soul and do what was right FOR me in removing this person from my life. I realize that it is not always so "cut and "dry" in life, but TO ME, it was. I can understand a "lapse" in judgememnt, an act of "weakness" a "mishap" a "grave error"....but I could not and WOULD NOT accept a SECOND WILLFUL ACT of betrayal when the consequences were clearly spelled out, when the earth shattering episode had already destroyed lifes (OM had wife and small children).....To "accept" it again, to "tolerate" it again would not be something that I could live with. I could NOT look my self in the mirror and like what I saw.

To accept this act of betrayal again in my life, to let this "person" back into my life and "arm" them with the knife to "kill" again was NOT in me to do.

The consequences of my doing this (holdign to my beliefs and boundaries) undoubtedly led to a quicker divorce. Those were the CONSEQUENCES of my actiions. You know what? That was the best decision that I ever made in my life. I thank God every day that he gave me the clarity and strength to do what I had to do to get me on the road to RECOVERY. I am "recovering" and if I say so myself...."flourishing" like never before in my life.

I can say without question that I "gave all I could give" to my XWW after the affair was brought to light. Now, in comparision to what many others here have tolerated and gone through here, that may not be saying much....but still all the same, what I "gave" (forgiving an act of infidelity) was more than I dreamed I could ever do.

When people talk about doing Plan A and Plan B and "sticking it out" for years to be sure that they have done "all they could do" and have no "regrets" when they divorce.....I do understand, I can thankfully say I have no regrets after doing "all I could do". It is all the same to me.

I just hope and pray that others get the same "clarity" to do what they NEED TO do (whether that means recovering the marriage or separating or sadly divorcing).

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LM --

Forgiveness is not the same as tolerance. Coping with ongoing inconsiderate behavior (which is essentially what an affair is) is unwise.

If your W did come back and beg forgiveness and want to reconcile, who knows? But she hasn't.

You removed yourself from a perosn who chose to be inconsiderate. Your story is an inspiration and it does follow MB principles. Harley is sometimes misunderstood as advocating staying married no matter what. In fact, what he wants to do is end bad marriages, which is what you did.

Your advice is much welcome. I'm still out there getting beaten up, figuratively, and I read your story and look for that moment of clarity, too. It's coming.

Cherished

Lemonman,

I'm sorry for a couple things. First, for your story. You are right, we all have our stories, and they all count! They are each of our's, and they all hurt the same.

Some time ago, you posted a reply to a post of mine. You were sound in your response, I took it well, but asked you your story because I was curious. You didn't respond, and now I understand. I'm sorry for asking earlier, when you were not ready.

For what it's worth, I think what you did for this man is amazing!

Best wishes to you!
Karona

LM, did you see this excerpt from: Dr Harley's article Coping with Infidelity: Part 4 Overcoming Resentment:


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In fact, when a couple goes through a recovery after an affair, and then experience another affair, the resentment is often more intense and more persistent after the second recovery. With multiple affairs and recoveries, resentment is almost impossible to overcome. But then, in those cases I usually feel that the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree.

I knew I had read that somewhere.....always made lots of sense to me. I absolutely know with zero doubt that a repeat of infidelity would end my marriage immediately. To me, it would mean that all of the remorse and regret that my FWH has shown was nothing but another lie.

ML:

Thanks for bringing this up to the thread. It makes complete sense to me (obviously). Often, I would be wondering if "it was just me". I guess what makes this so hard to also comprehend is that many people think that I did not go through a "recovery"....which if you go by the standards essentially used here...it would include a withdraw and a few false recoveries, repeated contacts, repeated declarations of boundaries, etc.......I never got that far......"addiction" could have been involved in my case as the OM and my XW had a long previous dysfunctional relationship...maybe they are/were "addicted" to each other...who knows....Thank God, it is not my problem any longer...

The OM has 2 small children which he essentially does NOT support emotionally or financially. As is so common here, the fall out from infidelity spans miles long. Even now, as I am officially "removed" from having anything to do with my WW, I still feel "guilt" and "pain" for her actions and how they affected these children. I am blessed with the abilities to "help" them and I do so finanicially in a very inconspicous manner. Maybe I do this as a way to feel less "guilty"...I dunno, I think about it often. I never did those 2 children harm, but yet I still "feel guilty" for their pain. There is something that I have to learn here.

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, as a new member here, I have to say that your story is one of the most poignant I have read. Shakespearean tragedy at it's worst. Thanks for sharing. Whatever happened between your wife and the OM? Anyway, you did the right thing, for certain.

Ok, I am gonna explain this with as much psychobabble as I can muster. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

They are "dysfuncationally"-functional together.....although the word "together" could be interpreted in a multitude of ways. They no doubt still see "each other", but are just "good friends" you know... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I think their relationship is the microcosm for all affair relationships. Their functionality together thrives on the "dysfunction" in their lives. When things are "smooth" they can't function, so they "create" dysfunction to function.....understand? This is not that different than what we see with many people here also....and this is said with a sad face... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Lem <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I thought long and hard before posting on your thread.. Mainly b/c I feel "inferior or inadequate" but I guess having your spouse cheat on you multiple times doesn't really do a whole lot for one's self esteem.. hence where I am at today.

My 3rd DDay was about a month ago.. 3rd DDay!! when I type it out it looks insane but it's the truth. When I came on here initially seeking help I was met by some cold hard facts delivered by you. It was a tough pill to swallow but as the intital shock and devastation wears off I am re-reading some of your posts and come to understand. You speak with great wisdom and I thank you for your honesty and truth. Truth is what I need at times like these.

I am in awe at the "graceful" way you handled your crisis. It speaks volumes about you as a person. But I am still saddened by the mess and destructions the children are left with and it breaks my heart. You see, 26 years ago my father cheated on my mother and was involved in a car accident that left him paralyzed from the waist down. The OW was with him as well as my uncle and the Ow's sister. All walked away with nothing but scracthes. My father was left unable to walk and a colocostomy bag was also put in. It destroyed our lives. My mother also made the hard decision to end the marriage that night. They divorced and here I am today.. married to man (who in more ways than one) is similar to my father.

The saddest thing for me is my father left behind a daughter who has horrible low self esteem, little self respect, huge C/A. --afraid to be walked out on again. That person is me.

But.. I know that deep down.. that is Not really ME.. I will find myself.. again. Thanks for the strength you give me. You are an inspiration.

LM,

Truth is stranger than fiction, isn't it?

TMCM

Okay, I sucked an extra beer back before I posted this... but...

Don't be sad for the lack of dysfunction you could provide for your wife. This post (snixon) speaks volumes. You did good, man. I was wondering what happened, since I feel that most of life is a learning experience, and while not expected, what life throws our way is totally presented to us to learn from and enable us to grow, spiritually. Both of you. There are (IMO) many lives for you to "correct" things, and this is NOT the end.

I know I go against the grain here, but I believe in spiritual lessons and fulfillment, and this is one of those things that I believe you and your ex-wife will relive again, since it was such a traumatic experience. It's something you'll have to overcome to progress. May I ask, what is your birthsign, and your ex's? I really feel what you have gone through is truly symbolic of a life lesson, and is bound to be repeated again and again, dependant upon your sign and your ex-wifes'.

You both seem unfulfilled. It's sad, but only for now. You NEED to remember what you have learned. She needs to learn more though. I suspect she is further down the "astrological" chain than you are. I'm suspecting you are "above" her astrologically, or in laymans' terms, an "older" spirit. You're a Capricorn/Aquarius/Pisces maybe. She would be Aries/Taurus/Gemini...

Anyway, just an observation. I don't mean to tread on anyone's toes, and certainly don't mean to dilute your MORE than emotional response here on these boards. I just happen to tend towards a more eclectic approach to rehabilitation, in every regard.

totally understand

totally agree

I would go so far as to say some marriages trying to recover also share this characteristic ... but it is especially valid for marriages to a previous affair partner!

As well as so-called "poly-marriages" involving more than one partner require dysfunction

yep!

BINGO!

I witnessed this in my mother's M to OM. I realized later that the reason they needed the "dysfunction"--the excitement--the conflict--the drama was to distract them from themselves.

The quiet healthy functional relationship calls upon the intimate self and requires the strength to examine weaknesses (getting to the REAL stuff!). For people thriving on this dysfuntion, such an examination is either terrifying (for the hyper-insecure) or simply impossible (for narcissts).

LM,

I'd very much like your thoughts on the topic of the thread title When to tell the TRUTH...

TMCM

Lem...

Thanks bud for again allowing light to go off in my head...the period I am in now is the aftermath basically...am searching for that shard of logic...the why.

And I may have found part of it in your words...these words you posted especially:

"They are "dysfuncationally"-functional together.....although the word "together" could be interpreted in a multitude of ways."

Wow.

My xh is one that thrives on chaos. When our lives were quiet, and good...it was considered by him "not exciting". He is as I now know an endorphin junkie. And the high feeling is created by the chaos. No chaos, no danger, no highs for the xh. In a wierd way, I think now that my xh and hiw ow/w were actually much better suited for each other than he and I. They both thrive on that chaos high.

It is kind and wonderful what you are doing for the kids although I don't know and can only suppose what it is. I know how that feels. Earlier this year, during all the turmoil, I took FV's other son from a previous bf, along with my ds to a book reading and signing...was for Harry Potter...They had so much fun. I hold no resentment for any child at all and it also pains me to see little ones tossed about by that chaos.

My life may be mundane now as compared to several years back...but in retrospect after reading your words, much has come "back" to me...how my xh could only fare well a few years at a time without chaos. HIs life could be characterized by patterns...with chaos and without chaos.

When I met my xh, he was divorced, as he told me. His w was living about four states away and papers were supposedly signed and it was over..a.s I was told. We had a good dating life...things were great for about 2 years and then, whammo, his demeanor changed in a manner of 3 weeks. He claimed he needed space. So we broke up. I being quite independent, was initially sad, but began dating around. Having just as much fun single. We did NOT cohabitate mind you though. I continued on as I'd always done. Then surprisingly, he showed up and within a month of taking him back he had proposed...after a 3 mos. split. Then came after that NO chaos again. Not for several years. Very good life...quiet. Then when son was about 2...chaos came again. When son was born, slowly I noticed that xh went to casinos during some business trips. Then whenever we'd go on vacation in the carribbean ...he would find his way into a casino. Beginning of chaos.

Too long to write...but there was all along definite signs that he could not handle happiness or peace. He craved the feeling, the high of chaos. I didn't see that. I did not know anybody who had gone thru this before. And certainly did not see it when I was with him. Not until now in looking back.

What some people perceive as mundane, I perceive as calm...cool...good. I think it's the day to day living that keeps affairs going. They want the high. They want the feeling of danger, the feeling of daring. They can't get it at home..why? Because being home is safety, it is peace, it is calm. They crave chaos because of the "feeling alive" concept. I remember now over and over my xh telling me how he felt "alive for first time in his life" during his affairs and how he felt "so much more alive" when away from me. Why? I didn't give him any chaos. I caused no trouble.

I think this is probably the same with your XW and OM. They are dysfunctionally perfect. IF such a creature exists, that thrives and survives in a life solely based upon stupidity. Chaos. Malcontent.

This is something I believe should be scrutinized by possibly MB and harleys. I think it is a foundation of some people's lives...and why some WS may never be able to function as a H or a W. They are simply driven differently than the majority of people. My xh once said that why he was doing the affairs, the risky business dealings. He said he was never afraid of doing what he wanted b/c he'd rather "feel alive. do the unthinkable b/c everybody else does not want to do it". Like a man bunjee jumping every day basically off the roof of his house...that's what my bro in law calls him. He used to say with pride how he "was not like the other guys out there...that I'd be bored with the other guys for that very reason."

In the end, I embrace my mundane-ness. I like me this way. I like where I am. I still search. Still want to know why this happened and it seems that I am inching closer and closer to the truth. Even when I get most of it, I will still as I suspect, shake my head and think it was stupid.

Thanks for the lightbulb friend. Glad to know you.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> What a great idea! And how lucky is OM, anyway, that somebody didn't suggest it to you en route to OR, instead of in this post now that all danger of succumbing to temptation is past?! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Too bad your thread wasn't 20 pages long, so I could've put off housework for twice as long! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

t&l