My WW and I had a big discussion last night which resulted in me breaking down in an uncontrollable fit of tears, right in front of my two year old. He was in the other room, but came in and wanted to know why daddy was crying, if I was hurt. He gave me a hug.

The things my WW was saying I would classify as fog, yet they are based in truth. We have been together for 10 yrs, married 4 1/2. WW says for the last 8 yrs we haven't been very physical, true. This is not because I wouldn't like to be, she says it is because she doesn't have those attractions to me. Married, why? WW thought she could live like that, says she can't anymore. Basically told me she used me to get pregnant, then didn't want to touch me anymore.

I am having a hard time believing all this, but there is a grain of truth because we haven't been that passionate in our R. It seems that all our probs are boiling down to this issue. FWWs, how much of this can I attribute to fog and some rewriting of history? Is WW now using this as justification for her A? She did admit that A was the wrong thing to do and that she should have just told me her feelings. Has WW just changed tune on this because I sure felt her love and happiness before. Can one really carry this around that long? Why marry me? She had a chance to get out (we broke off engagement at one time in our history, she came back).

Another thing. WW is always trying to tear me down, saying I think I am so great and that I am not that good of a husband. Told me that someone said to her, "you have great taste, just not in husbands." Said it was a guy (friend) of ours. Wonder if it was OM, hmm? Would only like to know who it is so next time this jerk is all nice to my face I can tell him to F-off.

I didn't say anything, but feel I have proved my worth as a H. Made mistakes, sure, but would like to rectify them. I have stuck by my WW through her A and still work to rebuild our M after the hell she's put me through. My WW really doesn't know how lucky she is to have me, my opinion.

Is it OK in plan A to take about a week break from talking with WW w/o officially going plan B? I just need a break to recover.

<small>[ December 06, 2004, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: Bear04 ]</small>

Bear04,
I am not a a FWW, but am a BH.

I can still tell you that 99% of what your wife says is fog aka BS. All WSs change the history of the relationship. It's part of what they do to rationalize their horrible actions. Isn't the human brain lovely? The only kernel of truth is that for the past several years you haven't been close physically.

Unless your wife is a sociopath, she loved you when she married you. No woman will marry without some loving feelings.

As to changing history, BSs are guilty of it too. Once I broke up my W's affair and "got her back" I went into a period where it was "wooppe I got her back but I don't think I want her." I changed history too. I rewrote by telling myself that I never should have married her bc of another incident while we dated. Seventeen years of good marriage suddenly evaporated.

Crying in front of her isn't ususally good. Try not to if you can't stop go to the doctor and discuss anti-depressants. Keep yourself busy at home and work.

As far as tearing you down that is a related issue to trying to rationalize things. WSs only look at the negative in their spouses and amplify it. That way they know they are doing the right thing with the OP.

Take care of yourself.

Mac

Bear we all must face our shortcomings with humility and prayer.....

some words may be truthful....in a sense...

some words may reflect who you were....

but there is nothing you can do to go back and change that person....

and so the best you can do is go forward....

but there is a grain of truth because we haven't been that passionate in our R.

I am glad you said we...
I am of the opinion that the most glossed over vow we abuse in our marriages...in the vow to honor one another....

I think God calls us to celebrate one another in our marriages....
each and every day..
inspite of everything....
for when we remember to be grateful in our moments....it brings joy to us...even inspite of all the other day to day crap...

hear your wife....
apoligize for your role with no 'buts' and grow from this pain....

her knee jerk "I just used you" are bunk
her knee jerk..." I thought I could live this way is bunk"...

she never tried to live any differently..
and perhaps you didn't either....

lick your wounds for a couple days...
don't wait for her permission to rectify what she claims is lacking...
fill YOUR universe with music and laughter
fill YOUR life with prayer and acknowledgement of your own blessings...

Another thing. WW is always trying to tear me down, saying I think I am so great and that I am not that good of a husband.

debunk this babble with listening to what she says...and asking her what makes a good husband..without powerstruggling but just by listening..

when she tears you down...
speak your pain softly and directly and quietly..
lay it back on her door....

Ark

I have to respond to something here because I know I am going to get a lot of posts pertaining to my breaking down and crying. I do not cry for no reason. Dday was 3 months ago and, emotionally, I have been very strong. I am a strong willed person. I do keep myself busy. The house is cleaner than ever. I have been doing more things than I did before Dday.

I do not need meds. It was the content and magnitude of the conversation was so overwhelming it hit me like a ton of bricks. I cried not because I may "lose" my WW, I broke down because in an instant I felt that the last 8+ years of my life were a lie. That nothing was real. It was not a groveling, please come back cry. In fact, I told her to leave, I didn't want her hear anymore. Not screaming, but in a low crackling voice. LB there, yeah probably, but I really couldn't help it. Fact is, WW started crying. Telling me that she is hurting me so bad, she'll move back if that is what I wanted. Didn't jump at that though, told her to leave, I wanted to be alone and think.

WW finally saw that I am not hard as a nail. She broke me down. I am human and maybe she realized that she can not tear me apart just to make herself feel better. I really felt remorse from her for what she was doing to me. Crazy?

Thanks Ark.

Bear, my Squids fog was borne out of HER truth - a hyper-rationalised revisonist history of our M.

She HAD to make me seem a bad husband in her head because then the acts she enegaged in re the affair were justified IN HER HEAD.

Now the fog has lifted a lot she doesn;t think I was such a bad sort I don;t think but bear my Squids fog was every bit as poisonous and foul as yours is now.
You really must not take it personally. She will regret it one day.

Congratulations Bear. You let her know that you need her. You let her in. You were both in the same emotional place at the same time. She actually recognized the pain that she has caused you and has offered to remedy it! Sounds to me like the fog is lifting .....

And you want to take a break NOW? Why? Don't think for a second that a week break will help you recover. Going dormant right now will look like you are rejecting her (maybe once again?).

As to her words. Well, she may in part be right. The emotional upheaval experienced during A is not something people generally experience in a more regular courtship and relationship. Don't forget, A is a like a demolition, not a building experience. She married you because you offered something to build with, a family, a home. Listen to her, she is saying the physicality is important to her. You know, to women (at least to this one), it's not about sex, it is about validation. My husband asked me, on DD, "what is about you and sex?" and I honestly answered, "sex is an expression of love." For some people, you cut off sex, you cut off love. She may not have realized that until she realized what she was missing. In my marriage, I don't think either one of us was to blame, neither of us realized what was slowly eroding between us.

Bear, you are really communicating together. Please don't go silent. It hurts. Maybe it has to. You are really listening.

BDGD- I hear what you are saying, but, the proverbial but, I don't think running back to talk to her is the right thing to do now. I really think I should let it sit til at least this weekend. Why? Because I want so bad to pick up the phone and call her now, I should do the opposite.

History tells me this. I came back way too quickly after dday and wanted to work things out and accept her back after I had said on dday we were through (emotions talking). Went nowhere. After I discovered NC was broke, she was crying and saying that I wouldn't take her back now. I did, within 48 hours the visciousness started and she eventually boke NC again. Told me last night she was back to NC. I have a hard time believing her til I see proof of that.

This time, I am giving it some time. I told her to leave, I didn't want her there, I wanted to think. Time to keep to my word. There was also a lot of talk about broken promises last night. I believe I have a credibility issue with WW. I fear if I come a running right now, she will see that as a sign she can start her bulldozer again.

Well, Bear, some of what your wife said is just justification nonsense. She was married to you for 6 years before you two conceived, so saying she married you to get pregnant is just silly. This in itself should be evidence to you that the majority of her conflict is internal and the majority of what she says is history re-writing.

Only you can decide what is right for you. It just seemed to me like you two had made some real strides. You have a right to be cautious/cynical. If you need time to get over the painful things she said, maybe you can just agree to have a night out in a few nights to talk over everything? I was just scared that going stone, cold silent for a week after some closeness might be taken as a major LB.

It's fair that she needs time to think too - she has to decide whether she really meant it about coming back and whether she is doing it for you or whether she is doing it for herself. Ideally, I guess it is both.

Maybe your in-laws could babysit for an evening so you two could have some uninterrupted time?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bear04:
<strong> My WW and I had a big discussion last night which resulted in me breaking down in an uncontrollable fit of tears, right in front of my two year old. He was in the other room, but came in and wanted to know why daddy was crying, if I was hurt. He gave me a hug.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">God, this is tragic to even envision this scene. Man, I am sorry for your pain and this horrible time in your life. I don't have advice for you but please PLEASE don't allow yourself to lose your dignity and respect in all of this. Goodluck.

Lemonman, I agree that what Bear is going through is a horrible thing to think about. But, perhaps because I am female, I see crying as a sign of humanity, not a loss of self-respect or dignity.

My husband's tears helped me realize the pain I put him through. It also made me realize the love he feels for me. And when I see his tears, I realize that I never want to hurt him again.

Maybe it has been the tears over the past weekend, Bear, that are helping your wife see more clearly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by bad d good d:
<strong> Lemonman, I agree that what Bear is going through is a horrible thing to think about. But, perhaps because I am female, I see crying as a sign of humanity, not a loss of self-respect or dignity.

My husband's tears helped me realize the pain I put him through. It also made me realize the love he feels for me. And when I see his tears, I realize that I never want to hurt him again.

Maybe it has been the tears over the past weekend, Bear, that are helping your wife see more clearly. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was not really commenting that his crying was a loss of self respect or anything.....it was more in the general sense. THE mna is clearly hurting and is desperate for his wife here. I don't want him to dishonor himslef or his self dignity all to tyr and keep his wife from DV him. It was more of a general post to him. I am sorry Bear if my post was miscontrued.

Saw Lemon posted and thought i was going to get the lemons. Thanks for the kind words.

My breakdown was not one of those please don't leave me kind of breakdowns. It was more of a where did my life go breakdowns. 10 yrs we've been together, 1/3 of my life, and most of my adult life. My foggy wife just told me that the whole thing was, for all intents, a lie. Not true, but her perception now is her reality. Hard stuff to hear. A loss of a sense of who you are and the world crashing in.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bear04:
<strong> Saw Lemon posted and thought i was going to get the lemons. Thanks for the kind words.

My breakdown was not one of those please don't leave me kind of breakdowns. It was more of a where did my life go breakdowns. 10 yrs we've been together, 1/3 of my life, and most of my adult life. My foggy wife just told me that the whole thing was, for all intents, a lie. Not true, but her perception now is her reality. Hard stuff to hear. A loss of a sense of who you are and the world crashing in. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YEah I kind of figured that. A 2' X 4' is not what you need now. I don't know what to say to you to help you save your marriage, but there may come a time when you just can't continue to take the pain your WW causes you. At some point in time it will be time to "save yourslef" not your mariage. ONly you will know when that times come. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Bear,
My paragrqaph about crying and meds was a short one so let me elaborate.

First of all let me say that I cried in front of my wife so my statement wasn't meant to judge. Sorry if it came off that way.

Crying does show that we men have anb emotional side usually unseen until the blast of infidelity hits us.

If your wife hasn't recommitted to the relationship she might see it as an LB. Also in keeping with the theory of 180, you want to try and show the WS the most desirable you.

Not sure I cleared that up any more than before.

As far as meds are concerned, I have to say that I used to have the same very clear cut opinion that you seem to have. Meds weren't for me.

I have now changed my tune bc of the world of help they gave me. Once I found out that the affair was a PA I couldn't get back into Plan A. I was very upset: crying, angry outbursts etc. I also obsessed about the OM.

The ADs helped me get the brain chemistry back on track.

Again just offering up suggestions based upon my experience and hundreds like me that have gone before you.

Again sorry if my post offended you.

Mac

<small>[ December 06, 2004, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: cwmac ]</small>

Lemon, you are right. My nose has been bloodied pretty bad here. Got a cut under my left eye. As usual, I will stick my face back in their to get whacked one too many times. At the end of the day, i can look myself in the mirror, say i did my best and get on w/my life. There are thousands upon thousands of women out there. Right now I am fixated on this one until it just isn't worth it.

Bear, I don't understand. Are you saying you are giving up?

Hey Bear, nice to hear from you again. Look man, we're all human. During my first week of Dday I cried in front of my WW, also cried in front of WW in first MC session. She said that she didn't know I cared that much. (DUUUHHHHHH). That I think was a good kind of crying (if there is such a thing). I had never cried in front of my W, or anyone really ,before. Fast forward about two weeks after that and I did another breakdown in tears, I told her that she "broke me and that I forgive her if she could only forgive me". That I think was a bad kind of crying (again if there is such a thing). Since then I've been strong and in control of my emotions.

I guess what I'm saying is that we're all human, if we didn't cry then we'd be like robots. (Funny but my WW actually accused me of that before).

As for the fog talk, yes it is, as somebody else posted believe less than 10% of what they actually say. Actions speak louder than words in my book, and I'm sure yours too.

Hang tough man, I'm praying for you.

FWW, here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> FWWs, how much of this can I attribute to fog and some rewriting of history? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd say a good portion of it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is WW now using this as justification for her A? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That sounds about right, yes. Saying any different is admitting to being in the wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She did admit that A was the wrong thing to do and that she should have just told me her feelings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Double-talk. Justifying her actions.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Has WW just changed tune on this because I sure felt her love and happiness before. Can one really carry this around that long? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you mean carry around the lies? Yes. And the longer she does it, the more she'll believe her own lies, sadly.

Nope, not giving up. That was in response to Lemon kinda asking how far I would go. Gonna fight for this one until there isn't fight left in me. Was basically saying I'll probably hang in too long, if there is such a thing.

WW is definitely believing her own lies. Guess that's the way the mind works. When it doesn't want to admit something, make up an alternate reality. Guess you can convince yourself to believe almost anything if you want to bad enough.

The help I need now is when talk with her again. I admit my nerves are pretty frayed right now. Don't know if I an ready to have another chat with her, even a light conversation. I'll need a few more days. I think better not to say anything and let her think about the outcome of our last talk than LB all over the place. That is what would happen because I feel on the defensive right now and am afraid I would attack. Plus I just don't have the energy.

Finished decorating the tree tonight, except for those personal family ornaments and the star at the top. Left those for if she is ready to do that together. Also baked a batch of cookies from scratch, made them for S to fill empty cookie jar. They didn't turn out to well. It's sugar. he won't care. See, I'm not perfect, as she claims. She'll see all this when she works from home tomorrow. At least she'll see I'm not just laying around.

I'll admit, three months, and that exchange last night has taken the most out of me since dday. Usually I'm more resilient than this.