I didn't want to TJ Lemonman, so I wanted to post this here...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't think I've ever read of a case where Plan A worked by itself without going to a cold hard Plan B</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Off the top of my head, I can think of myself, Bob Pure, CV55, SpiderSlayer, Fraggles, countless others.

I hope some others will pipe in to offer their experience as well.

Plan A, Plan B, it's all irrelevant if the marriage is destined to plunge. No amount of planning can save it, if it's not meant to be saved.

That of course is just my belief, but I didn't want you to think Plan A isn't just as successful, and sometimes even MORE successful than Plan B...ESPECIALLY for the BS...when implemented CORRECTLY.

And CORRECTLY...is the KEY word in that phrase.

Well -- I'm kinda with Lemonman here when I think it depends on your definition of success. I know there are many here whose WSs are at home and "working on the marriage" and the BSs believe themselves to be "in recovery;" but in reality, the BS is still in mortal pain, the WS is still waffling and in withdrawal, and the marriage is anything but solid.

I guess I'd define "working" as having your spouse give you a sincere and heartfelt apology for their actions, instead of just mumbling "sorry I hurt you" and refusing to say any more than that;

where they are ready, willing and able to POJA *anything* without question;

and, more than anything, you just get the gut feeling that they finally GET IT and there will be no more denial, justification, waffling, foot-dragging, ignoring you, putting the marriage in second place, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.

When the (F)WS feels putting the marriage first is a joy and a privilege instead of a burden and a drag, I would define that as "success."

JMHO.
Mulan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mulan:
<strong> Well -- I'm kinda with Lemonman here when I think it depends on your definition of success. I know there are many here whose WSs are at home and "working on the marriage" and the BSs believe themselves to be "in recovery;" but in reality, the BS is still in mortal pain, the WS is still waffling and in withdrawal, and the marriage is anything but solid.

I guess I'd define "working" as having your spouse give you a sincere and heartfelt apology for their actions, instead of just mumbling "sorry I hurt you" and refusing to say any more than that;

where they are ready, willing and able to POJA *anything* without question;

and, more than anything, you just get the gut feeling that they finally GET IT and there will be no more denial, justification, waffling, foot-dragging, ignoring you, putting the marriage in second place, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.

When the (F)WS feels putting the marriage first is a joy and a privilege instead of a burden and a drag, I would define that as "success."

JMHO.
Mulan </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mulan:

These are my sentiments exactly. Success has so many meanings on here and that is why for what "I" define as recovery success there are very very few TRUE recoveries here. This is all my opinion and obviously disagreeed with by many here. It is all in your perspective. To many here, just getting the WS home is a success. This gooes back to my self esteeem point. Many fine folks here have such low self worth, that any marriage is better than "no marriage". What their success is woould be my failure. There is always going to be varying opinions on this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">where they are ready, willing and able to POJA *anything* without question;

and, more than anything, you just get the gut feeling that they finally GET IT and there will be no more denial, justification, waffling, foot-dragging, ignoring you, putting the marriage in second place, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.

When the (F)WS feels putting the marriage first is a joy and a privilege instead of a burden and a drag, I would define that as "success."

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I absolutely agree. So again, I hope other's chime in, but I imagine I'd fit your definition of "success".

I don't like to keep using myself as an example, and I'm sure lemon is pretty tired of hearing about my story, because in many cases it CAN be considered the "exception" but I don't really see it that way. Of course my "home" on these boards is in the recovery section, so I see more "Success" over there than one would see on the GQ boards.

I just really don't want anyone to think there isn't success with these principals, because there are.

Am I in mortal pain ? Absolutely not. It's my choice NOT to be, is my FWH remorseful ? Absolutely. Do we let the A, govern our lives ? God no, I have far more important things to worry about.

I understand where you are both coming from, but like I said earlier, I'm a real advocate of Plan A, and I can attest to it's success. But please understand there is a PROFOUND difference between the success of Plan A...as opposed to the success of RECOVERY.

Defining clearly..what these different phases are...will clear up the dillusion of what Plan A is supposed to accomplish in the first place. It IS very common for Plan A, to take on different meaning, for different people, but as I said before...can be VERY successful..IF FOLLOWED correctly.

Thanks for reading <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

LM
What your definistion of a TRUE recovery in YOUR profession then ?

Take, well, ME. I hit a builders skip on a motorcycle at 80 mph. My fibula compound fractured and wore away a little in my 55 foot slide along the tarmac.

I have a few other small breaks too.

Pre-accident I was a first team rugby player, good squash player, runner etc etc.

I was pretty broken. My left leg was mush. I had a zimmer pin fitted along with a coving plate and six screws over two surgeries. Recovery was slow and rehabilitation and physiotherapy was painful.

Six months after that I had lost an inch in height, had an 'odd' walking gait but was training again. A year afterwards I was a great squash player, decent runner and had taken up swimming intead of Rugby. To this day I have some stress and cold related problems with my leg and ankle but I am fit, strong and very grateful not to have lost my leg.In fact the injury made me train more intelligently and I was certainly fitter a year after my accident than I was before.

So I was broken, and scarred forever but grateful for my second chance for the rest of my life.Was my recovery a myth because I was left with a limp and had to give up first team rugby seeing that I went on to savour my fitness and maintain it far more carefully than if I had not almost lost it ?

<small>[ December 06, 2004, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>