I felt the warmth from the GQII board and decided to post this here and in the D/D board...thanks for any thoughts and opinions....not sure exactly where I am at today.

I am kicking myself....but still am firm with my plan.

I have stood on mostly firm ground (okay, not all days firm) since June 4th, no opening to discuss our M, we filed on June 14th...this has turned ugly, we have a mediation date end of next week and the court date looms early in January. I rarely talk with her, sort of a Plan B but really Plan D...I did all I could, or at least I thought I did...and then she calls this morning.

She asks how is my cold and we begin to discuss the pending home sale...it leads to her asking if I want to talk financials with her and work the details out instead of with our attorneys/mediator to save $1000. She moved out of state, the A is over and I have previous posts describing my story....you may say I felt like her fog has been lifting the last several months but I have not been talking personal stuff with her, only business. I have pretty much been completely dark, I do not call, etc....my other previous posts detailed a few incidents with her trying to get me to talk in a not so direct fashion but I was not budging.

Anyway, she asks if I am scared to talk to her. I respond with a no, I have been focusing on myself for the last 6 months and choose not to talk to her...I then ask her is there anything she wants to discuss with me(this is the same question she asked me since our filing day-at least ten times).
Her response--what happened to the guy I used to be able to talk to? or something like this, I cannot exactly remember...anyway, I responded he is still here and always has been....but call it what you will, complacency, taking each other for granted, I don't know, I couldn't begin to explain on this phone call, but you travel alot for your job and we drifted, like most couples do from time to time. I've changed and I tried to show you those changes this past spring...but I was also an insecure idiot because you were not sharing your life with me and I had this incredible physical desire to be with you since it was the only time I felt safe (she was still in contact with OM during spring '04). I tried not to LB, did not bring up the lying, etc.

This call was all over the place..she says I do not want the old world...I say that is dead and gone, it's the past, we can only live for today...and I can only change myself, I cannot change you....this will be alot of work, a heckuva lot of work on both of our parts...she says she doesn't think she has the strength to face my family and friends since they know--and that was my choice to tell them, she understands I needed a support group but she has not said a bad word about me to anybody...I respond that with a planned approach and mostly TIME-we can get through this but it does take 2 people to work it through, not one...and I said something that I know we have alot of great days ahead if we want...but we also need to know there will be bad days that will try us both and I do not want to avoid conflict, I want us to be honest with each other and if someone is not happy speak up and lay all the cards on the table so we can discuss it....this is the key ingredient as to what was missing in our M....and I did not see it...and I guess neithe did she...all along there has been little remorse on her part, she is very prideful and highly successful career woman.

Alot more was talked about, sometimes mostly me leading the conversation...exclaiming I did not sign up for this ten years ago, I only felt my future was with you. She was crying at times and was not saying much....I asked do you miss me, she says yes, I do.

Well, where to go from here? Who knows, I am not planning on stopping anything...she basically said she does not know what she wants.

I wasn't trying to solve this on one phone call, it actually did feel good to talk...I asked if you would like me to call later, she said yes.

So, no actions at this point, but it may be a start to reconciliation.

Is this what I want? I do not know, I guess I am lending an ear...and I did not hear much, but maybe that will come?

Or, this could be total manipulation again to weaken me up prior to discussing a settlement.

Any thoughts for Nature?

I was strong in my conviction...but know I am a little vulnerable...but am still focusing on me.

Thanks for any thoughts and opinions, you guys are great!!!

Have her call Steve Harley and see if he can help her sort out her feelings.

That and a NC letter (if not already sent) and maybe you'll meet with her.

Nature,

WAT's suggestions may appear simple but they are packed with support leading to good results. Remember both you and your W control the results but you get the benefit of doing your best without regrets so that is why good results are attainable.

Please seriously consider WAT's suggestions.

take care,
L.

Please seriously consider WAT's suggestions.

ditto

I second that ditto <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Noodle

I agree Nature that talking with Steve may do some good but who knows.From what you mentioned,it sounds like you gave a good deal of yourself away and opened the door for her even though she doesn't know what she wants yet.It is also getting closer to the end and she may be feeling nervous and scared.

She also asked if you want to talk about the financial apsects in person sans a mediator.She did not say to put the D on hold.

I mentioned to you over on D/D that her concern for you and your health may be her way of trying to open you up and see if she will be allowed back in.

Don't seem too eager though.No more relationship talk until she agrees to talk to Steve,if she does and let things pan out over the next few weeks.Don't read too much into what she is doing ok? She may be feeling sorry for herself that her OM is gone,it't the Holiday season now and you are inching closer to a D.I would say that if she pulls out of the Mediation session or tries to negotiate with you about stopping the proceedings then maybe she is looking for a chance at reconcilaition.But until she proves something in that manner,she is still your WS.You mentioned before she had another guy around,is that still true,is it over?

O

<small>[ December 07, 2004, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Thanks for the comments....I have never mentioned Steve, MB or any of this stuff before....I guess I could ask if she could speak to Steve on the phone...not sure if she will go for it. She has been against MC from the beginning...

OG---yes, when she left to start an internship in early May, she began talking with another guy...who she had met the previous year and spoke to long distance 1-2x per month...I did not know about this until December, confronted her with it and she told me she would not talk to him again...she started talking to him when the internship brought her physically closer to where he lived.

I understand (from my sources) that she was not happy with him, sort of using him for companionship...I truly do not know for sure if she still sees him or not. I am guessing no...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nature:
<strong>She has been against MC from the beginning...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then before you suggest Steve, suggest MC in general. Professional counseling of some sort seems absolutely essential.

If she still resists, this would be a deal breaker for me.

No deal, no meeting without the mediator, no nothing. You're finished messing around, right?

WAT

<small>[ December 07, 2004, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

WAT--you are correct....I guess this first call was just to try to see if there was still some interest...and not to burn any bridges, yet..and not LB or put her down but try to get her to open up which has always been difficult.

And, most importantly, to know, yet again, I gave this one last shot and can leave knowing I did everything I could....it takes 2 to tango, as they say...

A brief update...for who are interested.

We spoke last night, just talk in general as friends, no R talk..the convo was friendly and somewhat flirty on her part. We spoke for about 45 minutes or so. I am not pushing anything, just listening carefully.

Now, how to tackle her concern that others know the truth about her A (my family and friends)? I tried to explain yesterday morning that give it enough time and a planned approach, they will understand we are together and working on our issues. I believe she feels the humiliation would be too great...so, the alternative then is to lose the M? That is not my call, but hers. I am more than willing to work at this issue but it really rests with her.

So, no positive sign yet to stop the D IMHO...we will see. I mean, what else should I do? There really is no action on her part.

In my experience and from what I've read on here, the FWS lives with a great deal of shame and guilt once they come out of the 'fog'.

She is projecting onto other people the shame and guilt she already feels.

One thing I've read on here from FWS is they are reluctant to continue the M because they think they will have to 'pay' for it the rest of their lives.

It sounds like she needs mucho reassurance.

You can let her know that no one can MAKE her feel any way. Her thoughts that others are going to look down on her is really HER looking down on HERSELF. Help her understand that you will be there. Life is a series of choices. She made some choices not fruitful to continuing a M. It is up to her as to what choices to make...to make it worse or to make it better...

You ARE who you ARE, and often judged by your actions. Yes, she will be judged by her actions (don't let her down easy) but over time, and after showing virtue, she will be remembered by her recent actions, and not her past. The further her bad choices are in the past, the further that judgement will be away from her...

Nature,


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I believe she feels the humiliation would be too great...so, the alternative then is to lose the M? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear the hope in the tone of your posts and I pray not for you but for her. That she may accept the responsibilities (humiliation) for her actions and ALSO accept the fact that through all of YOUR humiliation there is still that ember of love in your heart.

My prayers go with her .

<small>[ December 08, 2004, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Cymanca ]</small>

Wow, great points from both of you...I wish I could think this clearly when we spoke yesterday!

Not sure how to even engage this discussion with her....as I truly feel the ball is in her court now.

I am not planning on bringing this up again with her but continue forth with my plan...if she brings it up, I will try to show support and echo SHMI and Cymanca's comments in a supportive fashion.

Nature,

I see two possible paths here.

1. She just wants to feel good about herself by being your "friend" after the marriage is over. (After all she has done nothing to stop the proceedings at this point or to really indicate that she sees you in her future, right?)

2. She is held back by what family knows about her. If the discussion comes back to this in the future you might point out (if it is true) that all that know respect someone who makes a mistake, admits it, and does their best to NEVER make that mistake again. It is true here and frankly the people here are a microsample of the general population. WS's come here and if they want to rebuild their marriage, they are helped because that is what this site is for. I know some of them think they get beat up, but actually it is people attacking the fog to make sure it is cleared.

The point is IF she wants to be married to you and IF she loves you and IF she truely now understands what marriage means, and IF she and YOU are willing to work on how you two interact, THEN I suspect the happiness you two show to the world will more than overcome any judgementalness (if that is a word <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) on the part of family.

They already know so no matter what she decides they know what she did. The only issue is what kind of woman, W, human is she? Will she run, will she stay and work for something she wants (if the marriage to you is something she wants), or will she just let things die do to indecision on her part? Those are her options and none of them can change the past only the future.

Must go, but consider telling her this when next you talk.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Even if you two divorce, if there is something there between you two and you are willing to work on it, then the future holds options for both of you doesn't it?

JL,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They already know so no matter what she decides they know what she did. The only issue is what kind of woman, W, human is she? Will she run, will she stay and work for something she wants (if the marriage to you is something she wants), or will she just let things die do to indecision on her part? Those are her options and none of them can change the past only the future </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent point!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, JL, great points.

Like Cy's WW, this girl is incredibly selfish...I really do not believe she has the inner strength to work at this, to look outside herself and learn from this whole experience.

Does anyone feel I should try to send her a greeting type card via email addressing some of these points?

Probably not, just wondering though after last night's phone call.

Again, no real action on her part, just talk so far.

Like Cy's WW, this girl is incredibly selfish...I really do not believe she has the inner strength to work at this, to look outside herself and learn from this whole experience.

Do you really believe this is true? And if so, why would you want to remain married to her?

I don't see any kids in your sig line.

Just curious.

JL--very good points.

I think you maybe right on with Point #2. And, she has shown no real action yet. I think she is still trying to believe in me again.

Weaver---good question. I took a vow and recognize the fact I have a committment to this...as they say "for better or worse". However, I am willing to leave this M and move on if no true effort can be put forth by her.

None so far, only talk, and it really began with me approaching the subject once again...and not her...what does that say?

Just a quick update....for those interested on MB...this forum is very helpful as I find myself a little weak the last few days after being strong for so long.

She called 2 days ago to let me know her GF was visiting from out of town and she would have her phone on in case I need to call, they were going to visit the city over the weekend and maybe see a show....we talked briefly about their plans and such, very light conversation....she then had to get off the phone and called right back, we talked briefly and then she said "we both have alot of thinking to do and I will call you after my friend leaves on Sunday"....I said fine.

Well, I decided to make a quick call to her last night...previously (for months) I have not tried to call her unless it was during the day and only called her work number, never her cell phone...I left a quick message with a song playing on that we used to listen to....have not heard back from her and I will not try to contact her again.

Are we always so weak? Alright, it was just a phone call, nothing more. But, I feel vulnerable...and I guess need to keep busy this weekend and she if she tries to contact me on Sunday.

Meanwhile, the clock ticks.

Thanks for any replies as always!!