You'll have to read my myriad of threads to get perspective on how this is NOT a standard WS vs. BS situation...

Anyway...so my BS/WW seems to be warming up to the idea of reconciliation.
Last night over dinner she was saying she's scared about us, she doesn't know where to begin with believing in me again, and was talking about possible conditions for IF we were to reconcile...she even was talking like we could divorce to symbolize the death of the old, start fresh as a couple, and then remarry down the road when I have "proven myself" (we're not big traditionalists on the subject of marriage).

Of course, I didn't get into MY CONDITIONS which will be similar since she cheated on me too (albeit not as heinously as my multiple ONS's and A's).

She and I have also been house shopping, and applied for the loan together, which to me is a sign that she thinks we'll be together again soon, since why would she want me to buy a house with her if we're not going to be together?


She has been very adamant that her OM (he lives on the East coast, we live in the Northwest) is pretty irrelevant to our future together, I believe he's nothing more than a distraction and will be gone soon, possibly around the timeframe that she moves back to this area and possibly into a house we both own <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


Anyway...check out this email thread from today.



ME: I'm thinking of booking plane tickets to Phoenix for Xmas on Dad's dime...what are your plans?

BS/WW: Ill be on the east coast the week between X-mas and New Years...but I will prob have to work during a part of that time because I don't have much vacation time and it will look better to my boss.

ME: Oh. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

BS/WW: I had to make the plans awhile back because of the holiday crunch..Im sorry. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />



????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I understand that she's saying that she had to book the time and the plane ticket a long time ago because of her job.

But she's justifying going and apologizing for going based on that alone...

Is she trying to imply that she's sorry she's going, and if she didn't already have plans, WOULDN'T go?
Or that she's sorry that I'm bummed out about it?

I'm a bit mystified at how I'm supposed to take that.

Part of me wants to say "if you're so sorry then why are you going at all?"
I'm sure she would say "well, it's not like we can act like a happy family over the holidays, and I'm not going to your parents' house considering the present circumstances."

I want to believe that she's only going, and in a way only with OM still (again, read previous posts for the history on how NOT into OM she seems to be), out of a sense of obligation - the tickets are booked (she almost didn't go see him for Thanksgiving but used "the ticket's already booked" as one reason to go anyway), she owes him lots of money, etc..

I also think she's afraid of hurting him because he's been good to her, that even though she knows it will end soon, she doesn't let on to him. I think he probably knows more than she's letting on, though.

I have a March timeframe for my Plan A to end and Plan B to begin if necessary, although I don't think it will be, and that happens to be the same timeframe as the possible new house.

Part of me thinks she's going to stick with OM until March, so that she's
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">More confident in my determination to be faithful</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">More sure of herself and healed from the devastation</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In a new house and starting a "new life"</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Out from under financial debt to the OM</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I'm totally confused by this email, though.

And I'm pretty upset...our wedding anniversary is the 22nd, then Xmas (but we're not big Xmas types anyway), and then my birthday is the 29th.

She'll be with him for Xmas and my b-day, it appears <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<small>[ December 09, 2004, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

UPDATE:

How odd. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> (not really)

I didn't respond to that last email from her, and LO & BEHOLD 30 minutes passes and my cell phone rings, and it's her.
Said hesitated and said she "forgot what she was going to ask me" - uh huh, right - we got to talking about other things related to the financing of the house, etc., she was asking for my advice on disputing a mark on her credit (since I work in financial services), etc.etc.

She sounded "perkier" than usual...unfortunately I wasn't as "cold" or "indifferent" as I probably should have been, but I wasn't "sweet and sappy" either, as I'm prone to do.

Hmm.

<small>[ December 07, 2004, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

VM:

You had a 2uestion?

I've got one: Why buy a house 2gether before her A is over?

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> VM:

You had a 2uestion?

I've got one: Why buy a house 2gether before her A is over?

-ol' 2long </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've struggled with that; and actually my answer has 2 parts.

Here's my rationale for signing while we are still separated:

</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She's very serious about this, and the house will be ready mid-March, so time is of the essence, can't wait to reconcile to do this</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She may not be able to qualify on her own, which of course begs the question "why can't she ask someone else to sign?"...my answer is next...</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe we will be reconciled someday. Not sure when or how, but all talk of possible DV has ended and some hints at R are coming out...but I could be imagining things because I'm so hopeful</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The process of getting the loan, shopping for options, etc.etc. has been a good "together" activity for us, very similar to how we have always made big decisions - planned our trips to Europe, our move from the desert Southwest to the Pacific Northwest, buying furniture, etc.etc. Very cathartic and positive for both of us.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe her request that I sign with her is a sign that she believes the same thing...maybe</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I am wrong, and we do DV, we can take legal steps to change the sitch, we're not completely locked in</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

So...that leaves "why do it while she still is in an A with OM"...and that really only has ONE answer...

It's going to end soon, if I believe all of the above.

Meaning...my confidence that we will be together again soon obviously takes for granted that she and OM are over.
Since she says she is not in love with OM, doesn't want to be with him, and would have a very difficult time being with him even if she wanted to, and has made all of this somewhat clear by her words and some of her actions (the ones I'm privvy too that is), I have but one choice...

To look at OM as a nuisance, a pothole, and not the whole damn road, and react accordingly, meaning, going ahead with big life choices that involve her and I staying together.
If nothing else, she has on MANY occasions asked me to look at him this way.
So, I'm looking more to the future than to the present.
And, demonstrating MY sincerity about wanting her back and my real and honest determination to be a real husband for once.

I know many BS on this board are facing a much different scenario, one where the OP represents a possible future life partner or serious love interest, neither of which her OM seems to be.

Again, I suppose it's possible I'm being lied to and scammed and taken for a complete fool, and she's totally into OM and wants him, and is using me for whatever she can to get a leg up and then will dump me. I don't know. I don't think she's capable of that, and I honestly DO NOT believe it to be true.

But, I take that risk. I take that risk because reconciling with me, in her eyes, will also be a huge risk.
I think it's worth it, because if that DOES happen, and I end up screwed blued and tattooed, at least I can say these VERY powerful and satisfying words:
AT LEAST I TRIED.
I was the one that destroyed 80% of our marriage - she took care of 10% of it with her A and its continuation, and now still holds the remaining 10% we have in her hands. She may choose to trash that 10%, she may decide to use it as a seed to get us back to 100%. We shall see.

If I'm being scammed and she totally cuts me off someday, then all I can do is say "this is by my own hand," because ultimately this was mostly my doing. If I start from September/October on and judge it only against my changes and ongoing work on myself, I can say "well, I tried and succeeded at being a better man but it was too little/too late."

I can wait her out for a few more months and see what happens with our current geographical separation and her R with OM.
I owe her that much at least.

<small>[ December 07, 2004, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

Interesting...I visited a different "infidelity & marriage" board I haven't been to in a month or so, one that I THOUGHT my BS/WW said she had no interest in going to anymore because she was getting lots of one-sided responses...
Anyway...

Here is her most recent post from 11/19:


Subject: "Thinking of giving it one more chance?"

Some of you may remember that my husband had a long rap sheet of consistently cheating throughout our marriage. We have been married for 8 years. He had 7 total affairs that I KNOW about.

We have been seperated since D-day of July 27th of this year. Since then we have kept in contact. He has left the band that he was in which of course facilitated his cheating, changed his look back to normal which was a bit the "rockstar" look and thrown himself in therapy.

He has a GREAT therapist who is still working on his diagnosis but it is clear that it is based in low self esteem. His therapist happens to be good friends with my therapist and we have both signed agreements allowing them to speak to each other about our situation.

I know my husband is very broken. My therapist said he would bet money that he is a Narcissist which of course is the deal breaker as they DO NOT ever become normal human beings. He can't say for sure because he isn't treating him but did meet with him for an hour once and knows what I say and has put 2 and 2 together. Ill let my husbands T be the deciding factor in his diagnosis. My husband's T is working on "mother" issues that my husband has.

My husband's personality has changed. He seems depressed, has lost a TON of weight, has come down with adult acne. He KNOWS something is wrong and is willing to work on it as long as it takes.

I wonder what it would be to try to work things out down the road. It is too soon for me at this point but maybe in the next few months I might want to. I feel that since he is getting help, that he MIGHT be able to become worthy of a relationship. I do have some VERY strict rules if we were to work things out. I also would have a "trial period" for me...meaning if I just don't feel this is working out, I can end it as I see fit. If I find out he has slipped back in his old ways, I will divorce him faster than you can say the word. I do realize that I see him as a very different person now and I might forgive him but I will never forget. That alone may be the killing contaminating factor of working things out.

The thing is, if my husband is indeed narcissistic which I believe he may be...as well as having Histrionic Personality Disorder, he is a MESS and the prognosis is poor. But what about giving one more chance after alot of therapy? At least if he slipped up this time, I could consider him a lost cause.

Any thoughts?


So - it looks like my feeling that she's leaning more towards rebuilding are confirmed. I feel better on that subject.

She did get a couple of cynical and negative "run far from that slimeball" types of messages, she is smart enough not to read too much into ANYONE'S opinion...

But...
She did get some interesting replies from a few people saying "what about YOUR affair? when are you going to admit fault for that? Why should your H trust you?"
And her only response to one of those was a very vague "I know what I did was wrong and I have to deal with it and am working on not letting it happen again" but spent a few more paragraphs talking about how messed up I am!
That's going to have to change - I think she'll be surprised when we do reconcile that I will have my OWN list of conditions - my OWN demands to rebuild MY trust in HER. It won't be automatic, especially since we'll probably reconcile very soon after she gives up OM.

You'll have to read my myriad of threads to get perspective on how this is NOT a standard WS vs. BS situation...

Don't kid yourself. There is nothing unique about trashing the most important, most sacred of vows one will ever make. This board and this world is filled with liars and cheaters. The reasons, justifications and excuses can be different from one marriage to the next, but it all boils down to the same thing, an affair.

You and your wife are two of the most fogged out people I have read about yet. You think you are above the vows you made, because you don't VIEW them in the traditional way. What the hell does that mean anyway.

I am a little disappointed that you can not see the pain that is being spread becaue of you and your WW. To the OM and to all the others you had affairs with. Are you and your wife really immune to the pain of others? I would say you both have narcisstic or maybe physchopathic tendencies in your inabilty to care about other people.

I feel terribly sorry for this young man on the east coast who is being used by your WW. If his heart gets broken, so what eh?

And also anyone else that happens to be used by you or your WW. All's fair when it is something one of you want. How sad.

You don't get it Vnus. You have had no growth which is evidenced by these last posts of yours showing that the ONLY thing that matters to you is you and your WW. Not marriage vows, not ethics, not compassion for others - zip, zilch, nada.

I hope I am wrong and if I am someone please come on here and set me straight.

VM,

Stop reading crystal balls, tea leaves, and chicken entrails. Until she ends her affair with the OM and expresses a desire to do her part in rebuilding the marriage, you have absolutely nothing solid to base any beleif on.

How goes your IC?

TMCM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong>

Don't kid yourself. There is nothing unique about trashing the most important, most sacred of vows one will ever make. This board and this world is filled with liars and cheaters. The reasons, justifications and excuses can be different from one marriage to the next, but it all boils down to the same thing, an affair.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I understand that. What I meant by my statement was that this isn't a typical "innocent BS vs. guilty WS" issue, since we both cheated, and since in this case the FWS (me) is more interested in rebuilding than the BS. Most of the folks here seem to be BS's trying to de-fog their WS or FWS's dispensing advice to others. That's all I meant.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong>
You and your wife are two of the most fogged out people I have read about yet. You think you are above the vows you made, because you don't VIEW them in the traditional way. What the hell does that mean anyway.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It means that, and I have reiterated this many times before, I don't view that piece of paper on file with Clark County in Nevada as being the end-all/be-all. Yes, we're legally married. So what? She doesn't see us as being emotionally married, and I'm inclined to agree that we're technically not TOGETHER.
I'm working on myself so that hopefully we CAN start fresh on a committed relationship - I don't have to be married to her for that. Marriage is a state of mind, not a legal document.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong>
I am a little disappointed that you can not see the pain that is being spread becaue of you and your WW. To the OM and to all the others you had affairs with. Are you and your wife really immune to the pain of others? I would say you both have narcisstic or maybe physchopathic tendencies in your inabilty to care about other people.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think we're immune to the pain of others. I know I hurt the OW I was with, because they had different expectations of me, I lied to them to get something for me and me alone, and when I was done I was done.
Yes, that's very scary. It's that ability to compartmentalize, that indifference, that I'm working on now.
How do I feel about OM? Well, honestly, I don't care much for him at all. I don't hate the guy, I just have no interest in him. Although, I do have to admit that I feel badly for him too, because if all this is to be believed, he's being misled...I don't know, maybe she does a better job of communicating her true feelings than I give her credit for, but I can't imagine he'd be hanging around if she was saying point-blank "I'll probably reconcile with VM someday."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong>
I feel terribly sorry for this young man on the east coast who is being used by your WW. If his heart gets broken, so what eh?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To me, yes, that's true. I feel badly for him on a cursory level, but since I've invested no emotion in him nor do I see him as a guilt-less victim (he was willing to start an A with a M woman, after all), also since I see him as a lesser participant in MY pain, then no, I don't care about his heart. What BS on this board does care about the OP's heart?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong>
And also anyone else that happens to be used by you or your WW. All's fair when it is something one of you want. How sad.

You don't get it Vnus. You have had no growth which is evidenced by these last posts of yours showing that the ONLY thing that matters to you is you and your WW. Not marriage vows, not ethics, not compassion for others - zip, zilch, nada.

I hope I am wrong and if I am someone please come on here and set me straight. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Weaver, I'm a bit perplexed as to where this hostility is coming from. My previous posts have basically said the same things I've always said - "I would like to rebuild with my wife, I'm confused, here are good signs and bad signs. I'm doing what I need to do and waiting for her to come around."

Who am I hurting now? I've done my damage, repented, and am working to change my behavior so it never happens again to ANYONE.

Yes, perhaps I obsess a bit over her and OM and whether or not we'll be together again. That's my fault, and hopefully we're making strides to eliminate that worry (either she's going to dump OM or I'm going to stop caring).

Her seeming inability to be truly sorry for her A and the callousness it seems to convey is something we'll have to work through together once we start rebuilding - but isn't that classic foggy WS behavior? Why is our sitch any different from anyone else's on that subject?

And...the possibility that she is going to hurt OM is a matter of pure speculation - we don't know how he is going to react, but I think he's probably a smart enough guy to read the handwriting on the wall, and if he's still around, either has very high hopes, or is happy with the status quo. Hard to say.

But yes, it worries me too that she has the ability to consciously inflict that pain - either she needs to cut him off now or run to his arms - and I'll have to, we'll have to get through that in MC.

WE both did bad things to each other, to OP, to our families, and to our marriage. I, for one, would like to atone for those sins individually to others (and the best thing I can do for OW is stay out of their lives), to her (by showing my real remorse, empathy for the pain I caused her, and letting her go to make her decisions), as well as jointly (by rebuilding our M and making it stronger by lessons learned).

Unfortunately you don't see the great love that we do have, and it's hard to talk about that here when my only reason for posting here is when I'm feeling sad or confused or angry. If you could spend 1 day with us, even now while we're separated, you'd see 2 people that truly love each other despite all of this mess.


Perhaps it was a mistake coming back here to MB; you don't see the day to day interaction, or feel the things I feel, and I can't give you a complete picture in a handful of posts, so you're not really working with the best info available.

I don't know how much more sincere I can be.

<small>[ December 08, 2004, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

No, you are at the right place. You stay here and work through your personal and marriage issues. You are a BS now. Many people are both BS/WS on this board. That is why your sitch is not unique. And everyone has a reason for their affair just like your WW, that makes her common just like every WS.

I just wish that you would see this affair for what it is, an aboration of humanity. It is an affair, the cruelist act one can commit. I wish you would quit justifying it because your WW was hurt or whatever.

I just thought you were growing more than what I read here today. When you have evolved into a person who is incapable of hurting another for his own gain (sex, flattery, ego boost - whatever) than you will not tolerate your WW's affair. You will say -

"NO I will not be a party to this. It is wrong, period" AND you will say "I am sorry for what I have done, I have acknowledged my errors, and put into place boundaries so I will not commit adultery again. And I will accept no less from you dear WW, because that is what is right and ethical."

If you buy a house with a woman who is actively in an affair with another man, what you are saying is "it is okay that you are having an affair, as long as you choose me in the end. How we choose to conduct our lives matters not, as long as we both get what we want"

I don't know Vnus, it just seems wrong to me.

Could be the fact that I quit smoking, drinking and Lexapro last week. I don't know.

Don't leave this place though, you have every right to be here and you need to be here. I cannot stress that enough.

[censored], VM!

""I know what I did was wrong and I have to deal with it and am working on not letting it happen again""

What she DID? What about what she's doing? Look, you may be "incurable", you may not be a narcissist at all. Doesn't matter. That's YOUR issue. She can't work on a M with you until she addresses HER issue.

And your sitch is far from unique. Or, it is the most unique thing in the world, like for instance this quote from www.despair.com about "Individuality":

"Always remember that you are unique, just like everybody else."

-ol' 2long

Unfortunately you don't see the great love that we do have, and it's hard to talk about that here when my only reason for posting here is when I'm feeling sad or confused or angry. If you could spend 1 day with us, even now while we're separated, you'd see 2 people that truly love each other despite all of this mess.

I have no doubt of this Vnus. Just think how truly great it could be, if conducted in the holy way that GOD intended. And you don't have to be a believer in God to know what I am talking about. There is no greater strength or greater pleasure than love between two, which is founded on goodness. That is why you need to GET this Vnus, so that the huge love you share can be salvaged and harnessed for goodness in all you touch.

Does that make any sense at all?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong>

I just thought you were growing more than what I read here today. When you have evolved into a person who is incapable of hurting another for his own gain (sex, flattery, ego boost - whatever) than you will not tolerate your WW's affair.
If you buy a house with a woman who is actively in an affair with another man, what you are saying is "it is okay that you are having an affair, as long as you choose me in the end. How we choose to conduct our lives matters not, as long as we both get what we want"

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand now, Weaver, thanks for clarifying. Honestly, I'm growing more every day, getting more incensed with OM but also realizing that I need to be patient right now because I truly believe it's just a matter of time, really just a matter of a few months. How many other BS's have a set date they can point to as a possible time that their WS will make changes?

While I don't plan to use the home loan as leverage to get her back, I don't want to resort to EXTORTION and say "take me back or I won't sign," I definitely want some answers before I DO sign.

Keeping in mind that the mortgage process can take a few months, and both she and I seem to have a "few months from now" deadline for dramatic change (as evident from my aforementioned March Plan B date, and her post above), I think I will have more answers naturally before I actually put pen to paper than I do now.

But I will make sure I understand her intentions. OM HAS TO BE GONE BEFORE I WILL SIGN ANYTHING. That is a plain and simple fact.
I'm not signing on a $190,000 house just so he can come and stay in when he visits, PERIOD. I don't have to live there right away, but I'm certainly not letting him sleep in my house. I already tolerated him sleeping in the apartment on which I was still paying rent, I'm not doing that again, my doormat days are becoming less and less.

I'm basing my willingness to sign with her on the hope that OM will be gone and she will want to rebuild, and she's smart enough to realize that too I'm sure.

Keep in mind, this March timeframe isn't arbitrary, and it isn't based on SH's 6-month Plan A recommendation...

Even if she dumped OM tomorrow and wanted to rebuild with me, we'd have to wait until about that time anyway.
Reasons are mostly logistical:
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is living with her Mom in a 600 sq. ft. boathome, only to save $$ to pay back a loan she took out from OM, will be paid off by mid-February</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she/we does/do buy this house, it won't be ready until March</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm living in a single room at a friend's house on a month-to-month lease so she can't move in with me</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She still needs a few more months, as do I, to heal individually and assess where we're at</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Part of this "time away" involves geographical distance of 30 miles, which means much less face-to-face</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
It's ridiculous to talk about rebuilding when we can't live together (even SH recommends that, right?), and living together is pretty much impossible right now.

Now - that doesn't answer why she doesn't dump OM right now...she doesn't have to take me back until March, but she should lose him immediately...

Obligation, perhaps?
She still owes him a bunch of money...he bought plane tickets she may be hesitant to cancel...and probably even more damaging, she cares about him and doesn't want to hurt him, and knows she will have to in order to reconcile with me. And the last time I pressed her for a reason why she was with him, a "sense of obligation" was the first and only answer she gave me.

She doesn't see the benefit, to herself and to ME, of her breaking up with OM and being "alone" for awhile. I may be more adamant about this come January, when she returns from the holidays.
Honestly, I DON'T want her to leave OM and tell me to move back in the next day, or even worse, ask me to come back before she's broken it off (not going to happen anyway, I won't allow it). I frankly don't want to put up with the post-OM foggy withdrawals on a direct and daily basis.

And there will be NO "one last flings" in this situation, if plane tickets for the following month have been booked, they will be canceled.

Vnus,

I'm curious about something...does your lender know what shape your marriage is in?

If you apply jointly and then wind up divorced shortly after taking a mortgage...you may find yourself on the wrong side of a fraud charge.

It's something to be aware of.

WOW WEAVER!!!!

Good stuff!!!
well said
applause applause

just wish that you would see this affair for what it is, an aboration of humanity. It is an affair, the cruelist act one can commit. I wish you would quit justifying it because your WW was hurt or whatever. just thought you were growing more than what I read here today. When you have evolved into a person who is incapable of hurting another for his own gain (sex, flattery, ego boost - whatever) than you will not tolerate your WW's affair. You will say -

"NO I will not be a party to this. It is wrong, period" AND you will say "I am sorry for what I have done, I have acknowledged my errors, and put into place boundaries so I will not commit adultery again. And I will accept no less from you dear WW, because that is what is right and ethical."

If you buy a house with a woman who is actively in an affair with another man, what you are saying is "it is okay that you are having an affair, as long as you choose me in the end. How we choose to conduct our lives matters not, as long as we both get what we want"



controlling what you can venus.

She sounded "perkier" than usual...unfortunately I wasn't as "cold" or "indifferent" as I probably should have been, but I wasn't "sweet and sappy" either, as I'm prone to do.

try to go for less extremes...
don't be cold
don't be sweet and sappy...

just be..
softspoken...

that's ALL I gotta say...cause weaver said it ALL!!

ARK

Thank you Ark!

I've been paying attention! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />


Vnus,

Hope things are going well for you today. Get yourself some good support going with your friends to help get you through the holidays, okay?

So here's a quick update as of last night:

I got a phone call from the mortgage broker yesterday and basically he said I have to be primary signer on the house with my BS/WW in order for us to get it.

Last night we went for drinks, and I summarized what the broker told me on the phone, but we kept talking about it as if we were going ahead, until....

Here's a summary of the conversation:

HER: "You don't have to sign on the house if you don't want to, I know it's asking alot."

ME: "why wouldn't I?" (working on the premise that it's a sign she wants to reconcile)

HER: "Because I don't know what's going to happen with us."

ME: "I thought getting the house was a good sign that you've been thinking we can rebuild."

HER: <<started angry rant about how I was off screwing around with all these OW, I destroyed everything, I'm broken, she doesn't love me anymore, I'm only interested in getting her back and not on being a better person, I would turn around in a few years and do it to her again, etc.etc.etc.>>

As part of that rant, she said:

(referring to all of my sins) "And you wonder why I'm with someone else, this is it."
Interesting - so then OM really IS punishment?

"You should sign anyway, you owe me a house, you owe me that much for all the damage you did."

Now...this is probably all just be the anger and disappointment talking, but this statement confirmed a deep-seated fear I had.
But I was very clear...
"I'm not signing on a house that I will never live in."

We left it at that, and she took off in somewhat of an angry huff.

She called me a few hours later, said she had told her Mom she was disappointed about the house because she really wanted to qualify on her own, etc.etc.
I asked her what she wanted to do - we have an appointment to meet with the salesperson and the broker on Sunday - and she didn't want to talk about it in front of her Mom.

Then, she called just now, as I was typing this, and apologized for getting angry and admitted I didn't do or say anything to trigger it. I told her that I DID do something to trigger it (by being a cheater) and that it was OK, those are going to happen, and I that I apologize for messing things up.
We then talked mostly about her Mom's advice to her about the house, about me (all of which tends to be all over the map) and her brother who is causing problems in the family, etc.etc. but we didn't talk more about the house or about us.

I'm definitely seeing signs of cake-eating and fence-sitting now more than ever - not that she's getting worse, but that I'm starting to open my eyes some.

She obviously has some idea that we can work it out later - not because she's spending quality time with me, but because she's said so to me and to others.

But - she's getting some needs met by OM and others by me - so she has no reason to upset the current situation.

I'm still sticking with my March timeframe - I'll keep the "friendship" going until then - but I think maybe I should start drafting my Plan B letter.

<small>[ December 09, 2004, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

She's having an affair and you are even CONSIDERING signing a loan with her?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I'm not signing on a house that I will never live in."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good for you VM! It's time you start showing her that you are not the needy and guilt ridden FWH that will allow anyone to step on him, especially by someone who is engaging in unfaithful behavior of her own.

VM, I have a sneaky suspicion that all this lovey dovey behavior on her part had more to do with getting you to co-sign for the house than because she wanted to reconcile with you. I hope I'm dead wrong about this but keep your eyes and ears open for the return of the angry and bitter woman from a few months ago, now that you've ruined her plans of buying a home. If this happens then you've gotten your true answer as to how much she loves you and wants to reconcile with you.

Stay strong and accept no less than what is right and just.

TMCM

<small>[ December 09, 2004, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

VM:

You might find it interesting that I agreed 2 buy a 2nd home 2 years ago, when the EA was still going on. It was a tough decision for me, but in the end I just separated it from my other efforts 2 put myself back 2gether and considered it an investment. it's been a good one, 2. My MIL is living with my SIL in that house (releasing a LOT of tension between my W and her mom, who was living with us until then), and it's gained a 2ple hundred K in equity.

But it wasn't really a good "marriage building" decision. It definitely postponed my W facing consequences. That was also a decision I made, but based in large part on the length of her A and the time I knew it would take for real recovery 2 begin. (there were a lot of other factors, like our continuing 2 rebuild our historic home after a fire 3 years ago). However, I would DEFINITELY not have agreed to it if she was living elsewhere and actively continuing her PA.

If I had it 2 do over again, knowing what I do now, there's no way I would have bought that house - investment be damned. But that's my point, I didn't know then what I do now. And what I know now is what's helping ME build my fu2re, and my atti2de at home is helping those around me, definitely my W.

I think what I'm trying 2 say is that you need 2 focus your obsessive energies on being the kind of man you want 2 be NOW and stop dwelling on your past mistakes. Stop reviving that screwed up individual by allowing your WW 2 "guiltify" you and deflect your concerns from her current behavior.

She ain't your problem, your dwelling on the past and obsessing about every little thing she says or does IS your problem.

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I'm not signing on a house that I will never live in."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good for you VM! It's time you start showing her that you are not the needy and guilt ridden FWH that will allow anyone to step on him, especially by someone who is engaging in unfaithful behavior of her own.

VM, I have a sneaky suspicion that all this lovey dovey behavior on her part had more to do with getting you to co-sign for the house than because she wanted to reconcile with you. I hope I'm dead wrong about this but keep your eyes and ears open for the return of the angry and bitter woman from a few months ago, now that you've ruined her plans of buying a home. If this happens then you've gotten your true answer as to how much she loves you and wants to reconcile with you.

Stay strong and accept no less than what is right and just.

TMCM </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TMCM, I also hope that you are correct on that subject. She and I are going to discuss it later tonight, but our conversation last night and this morning were fairly calm and easy. I'll stand my ground.

I made it pretty clear last night that my rationale for considering the idea of signing was based on the thought that we will be together again someday. And, knowing how closing on a house can take a few months, I was confident that I would have more of an answer as to whether or not that's going to happen BEFORE I signed my name to anything.

I'm thinking that her A.O. was just a quick flare-up - she's had them before, and according to my IC, they're common..."I do love you, you cheating S.O.B." type of Jekyll/Hyde vascillations, typical of a BS trying to sort out the love they feel vs. the damage done.
She said, in her rant "I even consider the idea of taking you back and all I see is 'idiot, idiot, idiot' written all over my forehead." Well, the good news is that she's THINKING about it at least. So I take the A.O.'s in stride, knowing they're symptomatic of her healing from the damage I did.

Of course, OM is a different story entirely. But again, if I treat OM as a temporary nuisance and not a permanent deal-breaker, I can justify it all a little more.

But that doesn't mean I'm going to stick my neck out THAT far. $190,000 in debt just because I cheated on her? No. I have and will continue to atone for my sins in other ways, but not that.

I truly believe that asking me to co-sign was more of a hint that we might be able to work it out than her A.O. last night indicated. She's said lots of VERY hurtful and spiteful things in moments of anger that she doesn't mean. The good news is, her apologies are much swifter and more sincere and pragmatic than they used to be (e.g., her statement "sorry I blew up last night, you didn't even do anything to cause it").

Again, we'll see. I'm sticking with Plan A, being her friend, keeping an eye on this house situation and how it all plays out.

And, I have started a rough draft of my Plan B letter just in case. It's actually cathartic just to write it.