Pep,

I need some help. I got a phone call from OMW this morning (I wasn't here so she left a message). The gist of her message, aren't I going to enforce the rules? If her H has to stay off my property, doesn't my W have to stop waving to him when he goes by? I haven't asked Onlywords about it yet. I noticed a couple of days ago she was cold and sullen. Wouldn't talk about what was bothering her. I'm assuming now, that maybe it was this. Things were going good and I don't want to bring this up but I think I have to. What are your thoughts? Thanks.

RH

Be honest with yourself. You understand what you need to do.

Originally posted by Recovering H:
What are your thoughts? Thanks.

My thoughts... there is probably contact, of some sort.

Conflict-avoidance on your part is not the answer.

Where is your boundary here? Is further contact (waving to him) crossing your boundary?

What is an appropriate response on your part when your boundary has been breeched?

Pep

My boundary was no contact. I know she still has issues with "why can't we be friends?" Well, duh. I guess I don't know for sure that there was contact, but I'm sure something is/was up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What is an appropriate response on your part when your boundary has been breeched? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This one is not so easy. I mean I'm not going to blow up and go ballistic, but I see him drive by when he has no reason. It's like they are just tempting each other. And unless, I can get her to understand the dynamics of what caused the A and why she can't do what she did, it will probably continue (at least the casual contact). Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What is an appropriate response on your part when your boundary has been breeched? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">" And unless, I can get her to understand the dynamics of what caused the A and why she can't do what she did, it will probably continue (at least the casual contact)."

She's not stupid. She understands the dynamic very well. She does not choose to respect your boundary because you choose not enforce it.

HOW are you going to enforce your boundary?

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> HOW are you going to enforce your boundary? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My "enforcement" has been to state, do not do 'whatever.' In this case, do not talk to or say hi to OM. So if I've stated that, how can I enforce it? I'm not her master.

(And so far, I haven't talked to her about it, since I didn't want to deal with it over the phone. So how much of this is true yet? I don't know. I did just get off the phone with her and she asked if I was mad at her, so I must not have been myself, which is probably true, because true or not, just to have it brought up again takes you back to the beginning.)

Which takes me back to my question how do I enforce it? (Well, I guess it was your question not mine, but that's the question for which I'm looking for an answer.)

<small>[ December 09, 2004, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: Recovering H ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She's not stupid. She understands the dynamic very well. She does not choose to respect your boundary because you choose not enforce it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How can I enforce something if I don't even know about it? I only know what I know because of OMW. On the other hand, I don't trust her either, so I don't know that she is telling the truth (based on OM's actions and what he told her in the past i.e. talking to our dog). If you remember that one.

RH,

first of all, no, i do not mind the question.

ok, my first attempt at this post got way too long!!

my second attempt was no better.

now i am realizing the point is, every situation is so different. even for me, i cannot answer your question with one answer. I had multiple As, one while engaged with a co-student in college, one after 5yrs of marriage with a co-worker. then a extended one with someone from internet intermixed with one time meetings with random people and then finally with a good friend of the family.

that is when i knew i was so out of control and that i had to get serious help. that is when i ended up here.

i confessed a small portion in march and got into IC. 6weeks ago, i confessed everything.

at this point, i do not want to have any contact with any of them.

although i have to be honest, sometimes i get to feeling small desires to hear how the main internet OM is. when i do, i think of my H. i will not make contact unless i first ask him for his permission and i certainly will NEVER ask him for that!!!!

and i relfect on why i have the urge and i come up with 2 things.

1) i want him to know i have confessed all and i am bettering myself. but there is NO good reason for him needing to know that. me wanting him to know that is selfish and i will not act selfishly towards my H anymore.

2) i do hope he is well. for that i say a prayer to God and release him into His hands and care. his well being is not my concern and i have to accept that.

does that help at all???

would onlywords come back here or want to email at all or talk on the phone? is she in touch with rap still? i have not talked to rap this week but i try to keep in touch with her once a week. if i can be of any help, let me know

one more thing. none of them live close to me or work with me anymore. it would be very surprising if i were to bump into any of them. of the 4 main people, 2 now live in different states, the internet OM was never in my "circle" and the friend of the family has been told rather strongly to never have contact with us. he does not live close to us either, about an hour away.

i can assure you of this, if it did happen, i can't imagine i would wave or even look. i would run. and then probably cry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

i keep thinking about onlywords now...

is she in IC? RH, she HAS to figure out why she did this!!! if i would of done that the first time or even the second time, how much less damage there would of been, to me, to my H, to the family.

like rap, i would love to help get her to understand that.

RH, I have little time, but I'm so sad by this news.

My OM would drive by constantly, just to catch a glimpse of me, hoping for me to wave him in, or give him a signal to call me, I guess.

If she is waving, that is contact. Needs are being met with just a drive by. My OM's drive by's kept me knowing he still cared. However it got very creepy after a short while.

If opportunity presents itself he will probably pull in, or call, or plan a meeting with her.

She will get to the point of indifference, but she can't with him driving by. Have you confronted OM????

My suggestion to you is to sit her down and tell her, you know he is driving by, you know she is waving happily to him, and you feel there is more, because her behavior is saying so. Tell her you will be speaking with him and you will not tolerate it this and tell her what you would like from her when he drives by.

Does she watch for him, does she plan to be outside? What is their pattern?

I hope this can get fixed before it becomes something more than just a drive by.

{{{{RH}}}}

KY

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My "enforcement" has been to state, do not do 'whatever.' </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's not enforcement of your boundary, that's making a request.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm not her master. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK... forget the word enforcement... bad choice on my part.

A known boundary gets crossed
and there are no consequences... what are the chances the boundary gets crossed again and again?

Pep

OK ... I've had some time to think...

1. Find out what happened. Why is OM driving by? Why is your W waving to him? Why doesn't W tell you when there is a " OM sighting"? Just flat out tell her about the call from OM's W and ask your W to tell you what happened.

2. If your W is waving to OM, tell her that this is contact as far as you are concerned. If she says "Why is waving contact?" ... You explain that in order for the marriage to survive after infidelity you both need to make each other feel that the M is a safe place to stay. Waving to OM is the same as being friends with a person who has punched your spouse in the gut. Ask her if someone had punched HER in the gut, and later you were giving friendly waves to the same man, how would she feel? Very disrespectful. Not acceptable. Ask her if she agrees or not.

...if she agrees....

3. Have a PLAN worked out between you to cover every possible senario that you can think of. Together come up with what W should do if she spots OM... and what YOU will do if you spot OM ... etc. Try to cover every conceivable situation, and come up with an agreement.

4. Tell her that any deliberate breech of the plan by either of you breaks the mutual marriage safety agreement ...This weakens the bond between you. And the already weakened bond is not unbreakable if placed under enough stress. Tell her the marriage will not survive unless she honors your safety within the marriage. And you agree to do likewise.

What do you think of that? Helpful? Not helpful?

Pep

Here's my two cents....

The truth is, I think OM hates me and I can't stand that thought. Right or wrong, that is how I feel. I do NOT hang around outside to see if he drives by. I think RH must have seen him more recently than I have, because I haven't seen him "drive by". I have passed hima few times on the road this week, but didn't wave. yesterday I did, and I don't really know why, but the feelings in me at that time were kind of "f-off, jerk", so there was no intent on my part to establish contact. All I want, though, at other times, is for OM to know I don't want an enemy out of this. But I guess that isn't "allowed". Pepperband said if someone punched me in the gut, I wouldn't want RH waving friendly to that person, and likened that to my waving to OM. First, it wasn't a "friendly" wave. Second, I effectively punched RH in the gut, too, so why do I get forgiveness but OM doesn't?
My being "sullen" this past week had nothing to do with any of this. It was that time of the month for me, I was feeling stressed out about Christmas shopping and money things, and in general I tend to "overthink" things during that time.
Now I have a question....would it be "ok" for me to tell RH not to have contact with OM's wife? After the last fiasco, I worried that she was trying to make me look like I was some kind of "stalker"....in other words, I felt as thought I couldn't even go out of my house because I was being accused of "being there" (anywhere) on purpose, trying to see OM. I gave up the goddam walks because of that. Because of everything, I am now under scrutiny for everything I do or say, and that includes from RH....see, when I get to feeling sad or blue, he automatically assumes it has something to do with OM. Then he thinks I'm hiding something. I understand that, but do you have any idea what a horrible burden it is to live under? I waved once and all of a sudden, I'm doing something HORRIBLE. So now, it's like I can't even make one damn mistake. RH was good about it, but I know in the back of his mind he will always wonder. After all, he can't read my mind. Is it always gonna be this way, because if it is, I don't know if I can stand it.

Onlywords

I said to myself, "Self, don't post. Don't do it. You said you weren't going to..." And here I am.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand that, but do you have any idea what a horrible burden it is to live under?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. But not a burden. A burden has such negativity to it. How 'bout, "Do you know what it's like trying to prove you're trustworthy after living such a horrible lie?"
Does it hurt? Damn straight. Does it feel like we--as the WS--are living under a microscope? Yup. And I accept the challenge that I can rebuild my trust back with my wife. Burden? Not for me. I created the burden for my wife.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I waved once and all of a sudden, I'm doing something HORRIBLE.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, it was. Perception. In who's eyes was this OK? Yours. Funny how in the previous paragraph you were even trying to justify that it was even a wave. Step back from *your* words and *your* feelings for a moment. What is RH's perspective on this?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So now, it's like I can't even make one damn mistake.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure you can. We, I think more than our BS counterparts, are more human than anybody. We've already proven to all that we can sin with the best of 'em. But you have to accept: 1) that it was a mistake to begin with and 2) that the "mistake" was a setback. How far of a setback? You can determine that. Can you overcome it? Sure.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> RH was good about it, but I know in the back of his mind he will always wonder. After all, he can't read my mind.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are setting the precedence if RH will "always" wonder. Keep waving, yeah, he will--if he's still around. Don't you get it? You are still creating his uncertainty! And just as you are creating his uncertainty, you can be creating his safety as well. Waving to the other man is *not* doing this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it always gonna be this way, because if it is, I don't know if I can stand it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Only you can answer this.

Listen, ow, I'm new at this too. You need to understand a few things, though. RH doesn't *have* to be here. Neither does my brown. It is by their choice, their love for us, their aspiration and hope that they decided to give us another chance. Their goal and their thought that we can be great people again--no, greater than we even were. Just as RH needs to learn to trust you again, you need to learn to trust RH.

I'm not the best at this, ow. I'm just learning myself. But give RH some credit. He's not stupid and don't underestimate his love for you. AND while you're at it, don't underestimate *you*.

You *can* do this. Give it a shot. Playing silly semantic games on whether it was a wave or not is *not* helping you rebuild anything. Now, if it was a middle finger.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

alank posted this to RH. The same, "simple" post is just as much for you:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Be honest with yourself. You understand what you need to do.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Best wishes to you. You *can* do this.

LINY

LINY,

And why did you tell your self, "don't post...don't do it?" Why?

Thanks, I think.
Onlywords

P.S. As for me being the one "creating his uncertainty"....I do see what you are saying....and you're right, as far as the "wave" goes. But I had done NOTHING in the past three months prior to contribute to that (gave up those walks, remember?) and yet RH has talked about OM many times , especially lately, because he has seen him more (?). He still harbors a great deal of resentment towards OM, and now towards his wife. Is that good? And is it good that as soon as something like this happens, the first thing he does is run here, rather than coming to me first?

Onlywords,

Just want to let you know I have read your post and I have empathy for what you are going through. I have once struggled with the same issues and feelings of frustration, anger etc. The fact is, recovery after infidelity is a difficult road, but it’s much more harder and difficult for both BS’s and FWS’s if there is still ‘accidental’ contact with the OP from time to time. That’s why it’s often recommended to change jobs; move to another province or country etc. if possible.

I’m sure you was caught ‘off guard’ when you saw OM and waved to him. It happened on ‘the spur of the moment’ and you weren’t prepared… You’ve made a mistake. These things do happen and it’s not the end of the world. Nobody is perfect and you are certainly not a horrible, terrible and untrustworthy person because of this one small mistake... You and your H can move pass this. Now you can prepare yourself for incase there will be ‘accidental’ contact with OM again in future and take stronger precautions on how to react the next time. Communicate with your H about this and seek a solution together (also about contact from OMW). Communicate honestly and openly with him about your feelings. You and hubby must not allow these incidents to hamper your recovery and become a stumble block between the two of you. You must turn towards each other in times of difficulty and uncertainty, not away from each other. Are you listening Recovering H? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My best wishes to both of you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> This is my last post for this year (going on leave) and I will return to this board in the new year.

Take care and God Bless,
Suzet

<small>[ December 10, 2004, 04:47 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

First of all, THANK YOU SUZETTE!!! That meant a lot to me. I hope you get to read this before you take off...and have a great "leave"!

I also wanted to say in response to RH's comment that I still have issues about "why can't we be friends" (concerning OM).....I DO NOT have any illusions about that, to think he and I could EVER be friends....I DO NOT expect that, and I AM NOT looking for that to happen. I am not, as you say, "DUH"? Ok, sometimes, a lot, I am DUH....but not about that. The issue for me is the "bad feelings" that continue to float around....between him and me, you and him, us and OM's wife, and then there's the ones between you and my sister, me and my sister, ex-pastor....you know what I mean. I'm not MAD at you. I understand your feelings. But at some point, we have to let go and forgive people, or at the end of the day, we will have NOBODY. I know that early on, I perpetuated the bad feelings...probably even encouraged them. This is what people do when they have been hurt by someone they care about. For us to work things out, we had to forgive each other. We have to continue to forgive each other over and over. But why does it stop there? Shouldn't we be able, then, to forgive other people? That is my issue right now. That is what I want more than anything. Maybe that is expecting too much....I don't know.

That's all I wanted to say.

Onlywords

Your husband will eventually be able to forgive the om, but this will not happen at your urging--that actually hurts the process quite a bit. Can you understand that your urging forgivenss may feel like protection of the om, as if you are still siding with om against your husband so that om will not be hurt? Hopefully your motives are more altruistic, but this isn't the time to act in a manner open for debate!
I take the "punched in the gut" analogy one step further to "stabbed in the heart"...if someone stabbed you in the heart and you are still recovering from the serious wounds, you aren't going to be ready to hear your own dear spouse talk about how you must hurry up and stop have bad feelings toward the person responsible. You would want the space to be able to do that when YOU felt ready. True forgiveness is a process that can take a VERY long time under the best of circumstances. The reason he can forgive you a bit more readily is because he is married to you and there is extra incentive to do so; plus there is love between the two of you, where your husband has no history of love with om.
Waving at om was a no-no, whether it revealed a hidden motive of the heart, or was just a lapse of judgement only you can know for certain. It can be interpreted 100 different ways, so of course your wounded husband is going to HAVE to question your motives--that's his job right now as he sorts out what is real and what is deception in your life together. This can be painful for you and him, but it's part of the price tag for the infidelity..ah, you thought all that romance and sex was free, but yes, there is a high, hidden price tag, which you are now in the process of paying. (And it is not punishment which your husband is inflicting on you out of meannness--you are just having to clean up the ashes of your marriage and rebuild on the foundation. It's hard work, but very much worth the effort.)
In my opinion, you should not ask your husband to stop talking to omw. The two of them need to be able to hold you and om accountable. After all, your husband would have never been aware of the waving had she not told him. Telling him was SO YOUR JOB. Even though you don't like it, their continued dialogue is crucial to the recovery of your marriage until you get to thinking completely straight. I say that in love, not judgement <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Keep working friends!!! You are on the right track-it's just a tough track...