Onlywords.... right now your recovery job is to make your husband feel that being with you is safe. You do this no matter what he does. You keep doing this time after time. Making the marriage safe for you husband.

RH ... ditto.

Why is that so difficult?

OW ... who cares if RH forgives OM today or next year or 10 years from now? That is sooooo far down the recovery list after the destruction of an affair it's not even funny. YES, he'll do that eventually, when his heart feels safe enough to do so.

Make each other feel safe. The "bad feelings floating around" are NOT unique to your infidelity situation. Affairs are destructive dangerous things. Bad feelings are the result. Too bad. Make each other feel safe without expecting "payback" at this time.

Pep

<small>[ December 10, 2004, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Shouldn't we be able, then, to forgive other people? That is my issue right now. That is what I want more than anything. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Think about this.... what you want more than anything right now is for people OUTSIDE your marriage to have and receive good feelings and good will.

THIS is a very BIG mistake. Priorities begin in the home.

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And why did you tell your self, "don't post...don't do it?" Why?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because, I decided, POJA with brown I suppose, two things: taking alot of time away from what I should be working on personally, and two, I am only just finding out things about myself, only being in the early stages of recovery myself. But I thought another perspective of what I've gone through could help, maybe.

"Just a wave" was not "just" to RH. It was just another hurtful thing--as little as you thought it was. I did similar--well, even worse than that. And it set us back even further than when we started. (I joked about it would be OK if it were the middle finger, not a wave. I thought more about even that. And NO! It's still acknowledging him.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The issue for me is the "bad feelings" that continue to float around....between him and me, you and him, us and OM's wife, and then there's the ones between you and my sister, me and my sister, ex-pastor....you know what I mean. I'm not MAD at you. I understand your feelings. But at some point, we have to let go and forgive people, or at the end of the day, we will have NOBODY. I know that early on, I perpetuated the bad feelings...probably even encouraged them. This is what people do when they have been hurt by someone they care about. For us to work things out, we had to forgive each other. We have to continue to forgive each other over and over. But why does it stop there? Shouldn't we be able, then, to forgive other people? That is my issue right now. That is what I want more than anything. Maybe that is expecting too much....I don't know.
Onlywords</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not sure if I'm going to say anything different than suzet, chick, or pep.

I reread the above a few times. From *your* POV, yeah, that's how I felt. It went in stages for me: we could still be friends; she's not so bad; I could forgive her; I pity her; what a
b!tch; and now I'm at indifference. It doesn't really matter what OP does, does it really? As long as OP is out of the picture--completely. And your mind. I don't understand why RH forgiving the OM would matter to *YOU*. RH has his own issues to work on--forgiving the OM--if he should choose to do so--is (and I don't want to put words in his mouth) but I'm sure furthest from his mind right now. Right? It should be a non-issue. Yes, OP was in the picture once; but asking RH to keep him there for *your* sake is selfish. I could be wrong, but I think of recovery as three parts: *my* recovery; my *spouse's* recovery; and *our* recovery. The first two will mold the latter. And for you to ask--almost demand--your H to do something other than work on himself is just wrong. It could be perceived as a huge slap in the face. One of your concerns should be is to make him feel safe. *YOU* waving or bringing up how RH should forgive OM is NOT doing that. Let him go at his own pace. I'm not saying not to discuss how you feel--that's so important--but it's not your place to decide who is going to forgive who and when.

I'm not sure if I made any sense, but certainly hope that this helps somewhat.

onlywords,

It is really nice to "see" you posting.

i think you have gotten some great advice here.

i posted more to you in the other topic you started with my name.

Karen

Well, everyone, thanks for your replies....I have to assume you all mean well, but I stopped posting a while back because things get so easily blown up, things are "assumed" and then you get bashed for those things that are assumed.
I do not expect RH to forgive OM. I realize what a stupid statement that was. But here's a little background.....deer season is here. Started after Thanksgiving. OM goes over to his brother's farm to hunt....his brother lives on the same road as we do. OM has his own, big farm. Why can't he confine himself to that? Several times I had to listen to RH talk about this, and why is he over there hunting, and not too long ago OM and his wife drove down our road together, and they didn't need to be here, etc. You could hear the resentment in his voice. Then I had to listen to RH say that some guy shot a buck, but it ran onto OM's brother's property, and OM claimed HE was the one who shot it. I DO NOT blame RH for feeling this way. I am NOT angry with him for talking about these things. I am just trying to point out that these events were a form of contact, though not between me and OM. OK? Are you with me so far? So I start to get a bit upset, because three months ago I was told (through RH) that OM's wife did not like me walking the road I was walking. She said I didn't need to be there and that I was only inviting trouble. I'm supposed to have some respect for her feelings, which I ended up doing....I quit walking altogether, because no matter where I walk around here, OM could claim he has a legitimate reason for being there. I gave it up, and that was hard to do because it was helping me to feel better. But oh well....part of the price I have to pay for what I chose to do instead of working things out in our marriage.
So I get ANGRY that OM thinks he can just waltz around the neighborhood whenever he wants without regard to how my husband might feel, knowing FULL WELL he is VERY LIKELY to run into him or at least be SEEN, because he KNOWS my husband is a hunter, and the farm he hunts on is RIGHT ACROSS THE ROAD from OM's brother's farm! Are you WITH ME? DO I SOUND PISSED? BECAUSE I FRIEKING AM!!! Because he's doing EXACTLY what I was told NOT to do a few months ago. So here's the deal, people....I threw that [censored] a wave because I KNEW he would tell his wife! In fact, she had driven up the road about a mile before I passed him, so I KNOW she saw me. It was a prickish thing to do, and that's exactly why I did it. And from what you are all telling me, I've hurt RH very badly for this. Because it was contact. I was at fault. But OM isn't to blame for being "around" lately? I'm expected to hole up in my house, not be "around" because I'm scared someone will think I'm out there on purpose?

Here is OM's wife's message to RH, word for word:

"If you don't want my husband bothering your wife, then tell her to stop waving at him."

Tell me, what do you hear in that statement? I want to know if you hear what I'm hearing.

We cannot and will not move. So don't even go there. That is where this urgent sense of wanting "forgiveness" comes from. No, I don't really expect it. I just don't know any other way to put this behind.

Also, to the person who said it was "so my job" to tell RH.....see, you assumed I didn't. I did.

Have a great day,

Onlywords

Searching for blame is pointless. NO ONE CARES who is to "blame".

Why don't you and RH search for a mutually agreeable solution?

A SOLUTION is the whole entire point to this thread. Try not to change your focus to things that are not about rebuilding the trust and care within your marriage.

Make workable boundaries that you both can live with.

Pep

Actually, Pepperband, it is obvious quite a few people on this board DO care who is to blame. Whenever I defend myself, all of a sudden people are saying that I am shirking my own responsibility in all of this. The whole discussion then centers around that. Then stupid me, I go ahead and play along. Why in God's name do you think other FWW's have left the board?

People keep insisting that they know what is going on inside our heads.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by onlywords:
Whenever I defend myself...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Defending yourself? From what?

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...but I stopped posting a while back because things get so easily blown up, things are "assumed" and then you get bashed for those things that are assumed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If this was me, I apologize. I was just responding to the info that was given.

Onlywords...besides what Pep said in regards to stop placing blame--it does absolutely no good and resolves nothing--wanted to just make an observation, and I may be way off--you'll know I suppose.

STOP WORRYING WHAT OM & HIS W ARE DOING! Yes, you're pissed. Completely understand. Move? Wasn't even a thought that crossed my mind--not sure who gave you that impression. (The impression I'm getting is you think he's above it all. Who cares what they think now?!?!)However, you need to "move." Not physically, but move forward from worrying what he's doing. You "took one for the team" about not going on your walks. Good for you. (And I'm sure that was big for RH.) OM & OMW thinks recovery is about taking trips right next door to you? So be it. You called him a [censored] and I'm just going by that: Don't give him the satisfaction of even knowing he exists! (Yes it requires the boundary of the walks, but...) Don't acknowledge him. It *does* suck that he--in your eyes--can do whatever the he!! he wants, right? Not your problem. Does it pi$$ you off? Sure...talk to RH about it. But you need to concentrate on YOU and RH--not OM & OMW.

Pepperband,

I was defending myself regarding the statement RH made about me having issues where I still want to be "friends" with OM...that isn't the case. Someone else said RH would not forgive OM at my urging. I did not urge RH to do anything of the sort. My mistake was waving, even if it was not intended as a friendly wave. I am trying to point out that I can only do so much, because OM is always around. I agree that a solution needs to be the focus, but the focus has been on the frieking wave. I am not trying to minimize it, but for God's sake, is it really worthy of that much discussion?

LINY....you don't need to apologize. I just do not have high regard for this type of forum. It's not your fault.

Bye,
Onlywords

Ok, when I originally posted my question, I had just got back from an interview. Checked my voicemail and bam, it was the feeling of "Oh no, here we go again," based on the call from OMW. I was too chicken to call ow to discuss, because I didn't want to get into on the phone. I wanted to see her face to help determine truth.

Then in the afternoon, she called me to talk and she could tell I was depressed or down. She asked are you mad at me. I said no and should have probably either brought it up then. But I said we need to talk. See I didn't really give her a chance to tell me about it, but that's not the point. I should have discussed it with her. Instead, I come here and say what's going on? And you guys do the best you can with the information I've given, so I don't have a problem with that. I should have been more of a man and not been so scared, but things have improved so much that it was scarey getting the call. It's probably best it was just voicemail, but still.

Anyway, we talked last night, and again a little this morning. We're on the same page again. It's just tough.

LINY: About moving, that came from some posts we went through about 3 - 4 months ago. It's easy for someone to tell us that, but I've got roots here for about 140 years, unfortunately, OM family has as well (maybe not quite as long, but close). That's part of the thing that makes this so hard.

Oh, and I am not really concerned about what OM and his wife are doing. But I think RH is/was and that is why I brought up the whole hunting discussion, because he is the one who talks about it when he sees OM. If I see OM and he doesn't wave and I don't wave, am I still supposed to report that? Seems ridiculous to do so. There has been no reason to even mention his name. But RH has a need to, and yeah, it bugs me, so I went a little berserk by waving to OM yesterday. I am not defending that....I am explaining that.

RH--Thanks for the clarification...vaguely remember now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, and I am not really concerned about what OM and his wife are doing. But I think RH is/was and that is why I brought up the whole hunting discussion, because he is the one who talks about it when he sees OM.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is something the both of you have to discuss, then. Keep in mind, onlywords, that for some time seeing him will be a trigger. (Not that it's not for you, but you need to make him feel safe.)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I see OM and he doesn't wave and I don't wave, am I still supposed to report that? Seems ridiculous to do so. There has been no reason to even mention his name. But RH has a need to, and yeah, it bugs me, so I went a little berserk by waving to OM yesterday.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A simple answer? Yes, you do. I'm in a similar sit in regards to "location" of the OP. We work in the same area together. Like you, at this point in time, there is NO WAY for me to quit my job. So, we both have to deal with the fact that there may be run-ins with the OP. And by POJA, I WILL tell my W everytime Unintentional contact is made. (By unintentional, I mean, just the mere fact that I saw her and she made eye contact with me. Whatever.) But by doing this, I know I'm starting to build the trust back up and with that comes the safe environment, even if it's in a relatively unsafe setting. Make sense?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not defending that....I am explaining that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You made me chuckle: I always say, "It's not an excuse, just a reason."

Work out an agreement.

Pep

Pep: Thanks, we will! I approached it wrong yesterday afternoon. Caused more of an uproar than it should have but we'll get through it. Thanks all!

Off for the day, say hello to Idiotville for me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ December 10, 2004, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: onlywords ]</small>

<small>[ December 10, 2004, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: onlywords ]</small>

Because I posted on the Idiot thread that I'd send one to whomever wanted. He sent me the addy, so I sent it. I sent one to a few other Idjits, too.

Ummmm....he didn't tell me about it. It's the prinicple of the thing, ya know? Especially in light of the recent discussion concerning RH and I.
My that was a quick response.

Sorry Onlywords. It is Christmas, and I just felt like sharing the pic of ds. I totally understand, tho. For what it's worth, in retrospect, I should've sent it addy'd to The ____ Family, as the good wishes were as much for you as RH. Apologies.

- Kimmy