Update...

Spent some time on the phone w/ my parents tonight... hung up the phone, and within a minute WW called. I didn't answer.

So.... reviewing the latest... haven't talked w/ her since last Sunday night... she left msg this morning, I did not call her back... she tried to call again tonight. She got a busy signal (for how long?), so she knows I'm home on Saturday night, she can surmise that I knew it was her calling (Caller ID), and she very easily can figure out that I didn't answer the phone b/c I knew it was her calling.

Unless I'm figuring things wrong, I could've sworn this was OM's weekend OFF with his son (ie. his weekend ON with my wife).

WTF is she doing?

Guess the purpose of this post was to say Hello from Purgatory...

tqt

I guess to answer your question I'll give you two ways to handle a situation with words. If in any conversation with her she states that she's doing this or that with the OM, you can be short (appearing rude, issuing a LB) and say, "I don't care what you and ##### are doing, talk to you later" and hang up, or, you can say "when you speak of things that hurt me, it breaks my heart. Is it really necessary that you mention your plans with your Affair partner to me, when you know I am willing to do whatever it takes to have you reconsider your feelings for me?" Something she is not likely to be defensive about, that may open a channel for positive communication, through a glitch in the fog.

It shares your feelings, it's not judgemental, it shows you care for her, and it gives her the chance to open up to you for maybe just an instant, an instant that she may share something important with you.

This is an opportunistic path. You need to practice saying the "right" things in your mind, before you even encounter her. Take those opportunities to plant positive seeds in her mind, that you are not the bad guy, you are a loving, caring husband, and you will be available for reconciliation, even though there may be some terms.

You really have to be ON your game, and really think through what you are trying to achieve. It's a mental chess game, trying to outthink and out maneuver an "alien". It's a serious process, but it's not without some wriggle space. You can make errors and recover. One slip up will not completely thwart your efforts. That's why I keep saying, think creatively, think of your courting days, and fill the EN's of hers that you filled back in the good old days.

Also, keep a positive mental outlook, always in her presence, as if it's just a matter of time before she'll be back in your arms. Display confidence and self control, without an attitude. If something bad goes down, come here to vent. DO not LB and DO NOT denegrate the OM in any way. She'll fall down to defend HIM, not you, at this time.

Strong, confident, cool and collected man with a plan. That's who you are for the forseeable future.

Best wishes
SD

<small>[ December 18, 2004, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

Wow! You guys had some great thoughts while I was away at our holiday party. I drank WAAAAY too much wine. Apparently, I wanted to post last night, but couldn't, because I couldn't read the screen. Thank heavens. Who knows what I would have said!

We had so much fun. Last year at our holiday party, FBF/OW was here. She was acting strange (DUH!), and my then-wayward H was very mean and unhappy at our party. It was very bad, and uncomfortable, and everything that this year was NOT. Yay!

tqt, I think once you can pull away from your WW a bit, you will get better perspective. The other thing I encourage you to consider, is not putting "limits" on yourself. SO MANY people during mine and H's separation told me they couldn't do what I did, they couldn't 1)put themselves on the line of rejection constantly, not knowing when/if the spouse will come back to the M, and/or 2)forgive the spouse's hurtful actions.

My response to these people is that first off, until you are in that situation, you really can't say what you would or wouldn't do. Like I told you before, I was firmly in the "I cannot accept if you ever had a EA/PA." Yet, here I still am!

And second, how can limits be put on "true love?" Ultimately, your WW will see that while the OM may waiver from her on occassion, they may argue, he may be distant, he may question leaving his family for her, she will see you being her steady rock, believing in her when she couldn't even believe in herself.

I know this is all romantic stuff. Not very logical. But that is what M is to me. If you look at an A as more of an addiction, than a character flaw repeating itself over and over again, do your feelings change at all?

To what lengths would you go to if your WW was instead addicted to cocaine? Or alcohol. When I thought of it that way, I realized that I would do anything to help my H if he lost himself in that addiction. First protect me (I learned that through this), then help him. Like they tell you on the airplane, put the oxygen mask on yourself BEFORE you attempt to help others with their masks.

This is the ego part I was talking about a few pages ago. Your Ego is saying, "She is sleeping with another man! How can you "condone" that? How can you let her "get away" with that?"

Well, fact is, tqt, you can only control you. Your WW is in a M with you, but she is an individual and has free choice. I'm not saying an A doesn't hurt. It kills inside! BUT, if you can detach your intense ego feelings, from what is going on with your WW's addictive behavior, it gets easier to get through. I sense that sometimes you spin your wheels with the pain of what she is doing.

You cannot "make" her do anything. You can influence, which is what SD and I are talking to you about. Your actions/words/attitude/outlook, can all influence the way she feels about you, about herself, even about her relationship with OM. She has already slept with him. Do you have a limit on that? Do you understand what I am saying? The damage has already been done, the M is already in crisis. The only way it can really get "worse" right now is in your own head.

Am I making sense, or am I just hurting your feelings and/or offending you? That is NOT my intent. But I think you should really examine WHY you keep putting limits on your love, on yourself. There is no right or wrong. Just what works and what doesn't work.

And before you get too upset with me, I AM still hung-over. That is my excuse/justification/rationalization. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Spidey

Allow me to blow my own horn for a minute...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need to practice saying the "right" things in your mind, before you even encounter her. Take those opportunities to plant positive seeds in her mind, that you are not the bad guy, you are a loving, caring husband, and you will be available for reconciliation, even though there may be some terms.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm confident that I've done that. And she knows all of it -- that I'm a loving, caring husband, and available for reconciliation, even though there may be some terms!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also, keep a positive mental outlook, always in her presence, as if it's just a matter of time before she'll be back in your arms. Display confidence and self control, without an attitude.

Strong, confident, cool and collected man with a plan. That's who you are for the forseeable future.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm going to grade myself a solid B+ -- what the hey.. maybe an A-... for all of the above. No, I've blown it lots of times in the past, but not for a while now!

The only remote exception would be when WW tells me about plans with OM, or really, anything having to do with OM at all.
That's where my boundary line is. Now it feels like a "Hybrid Plan A/B With Qualifiers" --- she knows exactly what she has to do -- end R with OM, and come back home. And she has seen that I'm fine without her, which translates into her not having forever to make a move.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> DO not LB and DO NOT denegrate the OM in any way. She'll fall down to defend HIM, not you, at this time.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have NO idea why, but WW has rarely -- basically NEVER -- defended the OM. Not even when I DID deliver some seriously denegrating blows in the past. I in no uncertain terms questioned his basic character as a man, told her she was being used, told her the way OM treated his now-ex-wife was pathetic and disgusting... and lots more well-deserved OM bashing... and not ONCE did WW defend him.

I no longer utter a word about him. But I have a sneaking suspicion that everything I've said about him is swirling around in WW's head somewhere... she DOES listen to me, and I think she DOES (she used to...) in general value my opinion. So... I'm GLAD I LB'd with the OM stuff at one stage of the game!


Update as of this morning...

WW called again this morning, I didn't answer but listened to her leave a msg.

After some sarcastic, snotty words about her not being able to reach me...

Now...THIS time... she...

"wants to come over to get the Caesar Salad bowl for the Christmas party at work, and to talk about a couple things. I'm taking the dogs for a hike at ___ ____ this morning, so I thought I'd stop over after that.

I called her back an hour or so later, and said "Don't forget the anchovies! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I'm heading out now for most of the day, but I'll dig up the salad bowl and leave it out for you. If there's something you want to talk about, give me a call later on, ok? "

I was Mr. Prototype Plan A for the entire exhausting drawn-out 10 second conversation!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I also left out for her the infamous box of Xmas CD's, and some special dog treats. I'm such a nice guy. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Here's the clincher: I felt myself not necessarily LIKING this person -- whoever this person is that used to be my life's partner.
I did NOT want to see her today. Too much pressure, and too much opportunity to get hurt more/again. And, I did not feel the yearning to see her. That means something.

Then... my brain starts playing games... so my game-playing brain coerces me into calling WW back a few minutes ago, and saying "hey, if you want, you can drop off the dogs at the house for the day and let 'em run around (big fenced-in yard that WW and I worked SOOOO hard on just a few years ago; now they're in a townhouse and have to be on a leash all the time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) and then pick them up later." She sounded appreciative -- and uncharacteristically meek(??) and seemed to be in an UNhappy kind of mood... different than the just the last conversation. Anyway, I think she's taking me up on my offer.

So now I have a 2nd opportunity to see her. I'm thinking about calling her back one more time and suggesting she come back to get the dogs LATER rather than SOONER, and we'll whip up some appetizers or something and talk about whatever she wants to talk about.

Of course, my brain, etc........ is telling me to plan on tying her up and getting her into the hot tub... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ... ummmm.... never mind...
(that ain't gonna happen in a million years -- I'd have to drug her first !(@*#&(*!@&#)

But I do feel a R talk coming on... initiated by me... I have to get a grip on things and resist the urge.

Another brain game: Today I can convince myself that she's thinking about coming back. That's why she obviously WANTED to have contact yesterday/today. If I could just shut my brain off, and move on, things would be easier...

Will let you know what happens... wish me luck!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow! You guys had some great thoughts while I was away at our holiday party. I drank WAAAAY too much wine. Apparently, I wanted to post last night, but couldn't, because I couldn't read the screen. Thank heavens. Who knows what I would have said!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, Spidey, are you saying you woke up this morning with your face on the keyboard and the letters Q W E R T Y imprinted on your forehead?!?!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">tqt, I think once you can pull away from your WW a bit, you will get better perspective. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the words of a famous philosopher: Uh-oh.

You're not gonna like my last post, then.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The other thing I encourage you to consider, is not putting "limits" on yourself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And second, how can limits be put on "true love?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In this context, how would you distinguish between limits and personal boundaries?
(Unless I misunderstand what you mean by "limits" altogether)

Not sure if this fits that subject, but if I were here posting since last February/March, you'd know I've gone above and beyond what I thought would be my limits -- light years beyond. For months and months! I've been told I have tons of willpower (except I seem to have a problem with kicking the nicotine habit...), and family/friends I think have been astonished with what I've "put up with" in trying to save my M.

Simply put... I CAN'T go on forever. That's when the limits HAVE to come into play. I've already lost 1-1/2 years of my life (counting EA time when WW really was checked out). And aged 10 years at the same time.

Put it this way: If I know I still love her, and still want her, and am reasonably sure we can heal and rebuild and be happy together for the rest of our lives, I will stop at NOTHING to WIN this thing.
BUT, as you say, I have NO control over her -- only me.

And since she checked out, and has handled things for the last 10 months the way she has, human nature says that *I* am going to begin checking out at some point too! I'm a man with needs -- NONE of which have been met for a LONG TIME now.

Wait... I'm almost done <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I've been FORCED -- I didn't volunteer for any of this -- I've been FORCED to evaluate:

1) our M from day one
2) HER as a wife/partner/lover/etc
3) the odds of her WANTING to come back
4) the odds that SHE can get HERSELF together if she wants to come back
4) the odds of US as H/W getting our $h!t together if she does come back
5) what the alternatives are, ie. moving on without her, finding someone else with whom to start my life over again


Ok... sorry about that little rant. It was DAMN fun, though! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know this is all romantic stuff.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I'm the most romantic guy on the planet. (At least I used to be....)
OK, OK... maybe not quite the ENTIRE planet.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Am I making sense, or am I just hurting your feelings and/or offending you? That is NOT my intent. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No.. of course not. Hurting my feelings, I mean! I'm quite a bit tougher than that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But I think you should really examine WHY you keep putting limits on your love, on yourself.
There is no right or wrong. Just what works and what doesn't work.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yikes... you said it AGAIN ! I'm getting a complex... what did I say/do that you think I keep putting limits on my love and on myself?
Seriously... I'm no better than anyone else in the sense that sometimes people can't see things about themselves that should be so obvious.
I'm receptive to any/all criticism... WW gave me lots of practice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

tqt

Have you read the McSchulter thread?

There are some parellels (sp?), and maybe some inspirations for you there. I'd like to suggest you read those threads.

You sound emotionally recharged. That is good. This is a really difficult thing to do, all kidding aside, and it takes a mental and physical toll on the BS, like no other.

Keep yourself physically active, pursue hobbies/outside interests, and let WW know that you will be just "fine" without her, but you'd rather be just fine with her if given the choice.

Stay focused and strong!
SD

Holy cow! You fell to the second page. *gasp* Don't worry, I gotcha!

Well, I did feel pretty poopy all day long yesterday. And after this comment from you:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm getting a complex... what did I say/do that you think I keep putting limits on my love and on myself? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I began thinking that maybe I shouldn't be doing any serious-type posting in my condition, as my head was stuffed with cotton and slows down the thinking process. When I read that comment from you, and tried to think about why I said it, I couldn't even think of anything except perhaps getting a chocolate-dipped cone from Dairy Queen. That's a bad sign, a REAL bad sign. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And, I still don't have an answer. Well, not a fully-formed answer. I guess to me, it just seemed that you talk about all that you have done, all that you are doing, what you think you want, but then you seem to quantify it all with some sort of limit. Like how much more you can take, how much longer, stuff like that. This is not an instance that I feel you aren't seeing something that everyone else is. This is a case of challenging WHY you feel you need to place limits.

I think once you stay in the limited contact for a while, it might seem more doable. You are right, you have been put through the ringer several times. I know we all have limits. It's just a challenge to examine. From my personal history, I know I tend to put limits on myself and others. And I know when I do it, to some extent it is me trying to "control" the situation. And by doing so, I CAN control to some extent, BUT I usually don't get what I want.

So, how did yesterday go with the phone calling, her dropping the dogs off, making appetizers and chatting, etc?

Spidey

Sorry everyone but I have a headache after reading all of this. Not meant to minimize anything sadi because it all was good, but so much back and forth...what to do what not to do...
I think SD said something about a chess game? I think we think too much.

TQT... you mentioned that you take on this fatherly protective role...STOP!!! You said your WW can now have a whirlwind life with the OM...NOT LIKELY. He now has an EX with kids. Is your WW up for that? I doubt it. Be her Man...be her lover...be her best friend. I still think that limited contact is necessary and I don't think you should call her back multiple times and try to extend your time together. It is so easy to want it all anytime you see alittle glimmer of hope. My WH made a comment to me about me seeming happy. I try to be that up person when I do see him, and not let him think I am pining away for him. However, I continue to let him know that I love him and want to work things out if he is ready. He often acts sad when he is around me...not sure if he is looking for sympathy or if he is really that miserable when he has to spend time with me. (but that is his problem to figure out...as long as I am not LBing). All I am saying is don't go too far out of your way, because it may not make her feel any different and you will have expended a lot of healthy energy feeling that it was for not. This weekend I went to a holiday party with my WH and in the car he took my wedding ring off and siad he wanted to go out with his date, not his wife. I said "Oh, does that mean you don't want to be married anymore?" He said "No, it just seemed like he had more fun that way". Guess I can see his point. We often forget the lover part and start looking at each other as the old ball and chain....responsiblity...nagging...who is taking the trash out.....
I really don't think your WW had an A with OM because there was anythin inherently right with him and wrong with you. I think she has a lot to figure out. If she can make a list of things that she needs or wants to do, maybe you can help her meet some of those goals. But once again, she needs to know that as long as she continues the A, that you have boundaries and you need to do certain things to keep yourself well and safe.
Detaching and Safety Mode are two very different things. Is your WW going to counseling? If not I think I would try to get her there!!

Sorry if I am just adding another confusing opinion to the mix. I think you are doing very well and would say 2 1/2 months isn't very long in the scheme of things. Hang in there

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you read the McSchulter thread?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi SD... yes, I've read much of it, but it's hard to keep up with everything!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You sound emotionally recharged. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep... all emotionally charged up and nowhere to go with it...


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Keep yourself physically active, pursue hobbies/outside interests, and let WW know that you will be just "fine" without her, but you'd rather be just fine with her if given the choice.
Stay focused and strong!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the encouragement, SD!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I began thinking that maybe I shouldn't be doing any serious-type posting in my condition, as my head was stuffed with cotton and slows down the thinking process. When I read that comment from you, and tried to think about why I said it, I couldn't even think of anything except perhaps getting a chocolate-dipped cone from Dairy Queen. That's a bad sign, a REAL bad sign. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spidey, Spidey, Spidey... you GOTTA switch to beer! You wine drinkers are a stubborn bunch...


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a case of challenging WHY you feel you need to place limits. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"A man's got to know his limitations." (Clint Eastwood)

Seriously, though... whatever these limits are...wherever they come from...I'm not sure, but...
maybe it's trying to keep the pain below a certain threshhold -- ABOVE which I've spent a LOT of time in this wonderful year 2004.
So... self-preservation. Then throw in a couple dashes of rational, reality-based thinking, a pinch of wondering how long I can go without having any of my needs met... and there ya have it. In some cases, "limits" are healthy, don't you think?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, how did yesterday go with the phone calling, her dropping the dogs off, making appetizers and chatting, etc?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I decided to back off a little. She dropped the dogs off at some point (I was gone). I got home around 5:30, and she had already returned to pick them up. So I didn't see WW, and didn't see dogs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Then she called me ~6:00. We talked for a full 30 minutes (I think that's a record). She chatted away about nothing in particular, smalltalk... friendly (for her)... she was VERY curious about what I've been up to, what the Xmas plans were, exclaimed how "clean the house was - you must have a friend or a housekeeper" (ha! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), talked about her family, and mentioned the what-has-become her mother's annual March month-long vacation in Fla. The last two years, WW/I have gone down there to stay with her mother for a week. WW eluded to the fact that she was going.

So... she's capable of thinking about SOMETHING in the future, in this case apparently planning a March vacation as a single woman (or perhaps with OM?)... and whether or not that "means" anything in the context of The Situation, I don't know(?). I didn't take it as a good sign, however.

Back to the conversation... the subject of the gym and working out, etc. came up, and not sure what happened, but then all in the next 10 seconds:
she suddenly became angry -- started having a mini-meltdown/tantrum... said she was hanging up, I CALMLY said something like "well, now that you've suddenly become so angry, I don't want to talk to you right now either." She hung up.

So after standing there staring at the phone in my hand and uttering a few dozen WTF?!?'s to myself... I came to the conclusion that the brain chemistry in my WW's head is not quite right. Uhhh, same conclusion I've come to before...

The subject of "working out" is a REAL touchy one with her. When her MLC/whatever-the-hell-it-was started, part of it was her creating her "new body" and she's has worked out consistently since then. Back in my snooping stage, I heard her tell OM on the phone: "I went on the treadmill for you today." (excuse me, I have to go get a bucket... every time I think of that, I get sick to my stomach)
ANYway... when she moved out, she said she wanted the treadmill, and I said "no way, that thing weighs 400#'s, and remember we almost killed ourselves getting it up the stairs?!?" So she's been REALLY ticked off about the treadmill, working out, blah blah... ever since then.


So... why she wanted to spend 30 minutes on the phone, who knows.... one opinion is that she was simply bored, lonely, and she doesn't have that many people she can pick up the phone and call.


The latest news: She tried to call me this morning from work, and didn't leave a message. (caller ID)

--------------

Hi WWH... welcome back to my nightmare...


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry everyone but I have a headache after reading all of this. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh...hang around for a while... before ya know it, you won't even notice the headache. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but so much back and forth...what to do what not to do...
I think SD said something about a chess game? I think we think too much.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're probably 100% right.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TQT... you mentioned that you take on this fatherly protective role...STOP!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I exaggerated things when I said that. But to the extent I DID take on that role, and only since DDay, it has largely been due to her behavior (but yes, I know, it's the way I react to it that matters). Problem is, she's been SO COMPLETELY BIZARRE that I've been truly worried about her. We went thru a phase with violent rages -- breaking things...holes in walls... she was One Volatile Woman. One evening I almost called 911 -- another 20 seconds and I would have.
I guess I got to the point where whatever happened to my M was secondary to "taking care of her." There was no one else to do it.
Your point is well-taken, and the fatherly stuff is pretty much out the window these days.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You said your WW can now have a whirlwind life with the OM...NOT LIKELY. He now has an EX with kids. Is your WW up for that? I doubt it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I doubt it too. For lots of reasons.

1) WW experienced the pain of infidelity when she was growing up. I believe her parents' nasty divorce really scarred her.

2) My now-sister-in-law is a former OW. ie. years ago, my brother had an A with this woman at work, blew up his marriage, and ended up marrying OW. MY WW was LIVID about it, and HATED her "for breaking up my brother's marriage," and had all sorts of choice names for her.
Now my WW is in the very same role that she's always hated so much. What a terrible place to be.

3) WW never wanted kids (so she said), and I think it was because of what she went thru with her parents' divorce. (rational thinking? not really, but...). So, she "sees herself" as NOT a kid person. (It's very sad, because all the times I've watched her interact with children -- of all ages -- she's sooooo good at it.)

I had one conversation with OMW (in July I think). OMW had met my WW 2-3 times before at work functions, but very briefly.
It was almost eerie when she said to me: "I don't mean to be disrespectful to your W, but I sense that your W is not a 'children person' and that makes me very upset."
What she was saying was: now that my family has been destroyed, it's even worse that my STBXH chose another woman who doesn't even like kids.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Be her Man...be her lover...be her best friend. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've been trying my damndest to be all of those things and more for 24 years.
Guess I failed somewhere...
As of TODAY it's hard to find a way to do that when it's nothing but very minimal phone contact.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still think that limited contact is necessary and I don't think you should call her back multiple times and try to extend your time together. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that's my question, I guess. How can I "Be her Man...be her lover...be her best friend" when
a) contact is minimal, and b) I'm not (or should not be) initiating it


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is your WW going to counseling? If not I think I would try to get her there!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, unless she started recently, which I seriously doubt. Approx a month ago, I asked her if she thought about it, and she said "yes, I've thought about it."

It's pretty easy to recognize that she needs it, isn't it?!?! (except her own family won't say anything to her, which sucks!)

I can't press the issue too hard... but will bring it up again when it seems safe to do so.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry if I am just adding another confusing opinion to the mix. I think you are doing very well and would say 2 1/2 months isn't very long in the scheme of things. Hang in there </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks... the help I've been getting from everyone is SOOOO much appreciated.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've been trying my damndest to be all of those things and more for 24 years.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK this is not I repeat not a 2x4. From your perspective you have, but what is hers. I think that is key, but can you get her to spell it out for you? I have been trying to get those answers myself for 2 1/2 months. No Luck.

Do you have email contact with her? Sometimes I find my WH responds better to that. I can look over my words before I send it to make sure I am not LBing, and since there is no "emotions" coming across in your tone of voice, things are not likely to be miscontrued. Email her and ask her about your conversation. Tell her you really want to understand what upset her so. Ask her if she is still angry about the treadmill, ask her if you ever made her feel less about her physical self as it sounds like the OM does. Does she think you are meeting someone there and she is jealous?

I know it is hard to meet someones EN's if you don't 1) know what they are and 2) Are not around them to do anything about it. Did you discuss Christmas? Do you intend on exchanging gifts?

I honestly think your WW is deep in the fog and probably depressed as well. It is too bad her family doesn't suggest IC. Lots of people look at it as a weakness, at least my family understand mental health issues all to well and know the benefits of AD's and IC. Do you have a mutual close friend that you might be able to reach out to? Your WW needs to understand that with or without you she will have the same "issues" and they will follow her everywhere.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From your perspective you have, but what is hers. I think that is key, but can you get her to spell it out for you? I have been trying to get those answers myself for 2 1/2 months. No Luck.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't get her to spell out anything, other than maybe "I A M I N A F O G"

I can only GUESS.

Let me ramble (surprise!) a little about our marriage, BEFORE she went AWOL...

In the aftermath of her moving out, I found a two anniversary cards she gave me. (In her rages, she ripped up everything else -- cards, love letters I wrote to her before we were married, etc. It was pretty gut-wrenching to find the shreds in the trash one day.)
Anyway, anniversary card she gave me in year 10 said: "Thanks for a perfect 10 years."
Year 12 or 13 said: "We may not be perfect, but we're perfect for each other."

A few months ago, I found a "State of Your Marriage" test in one of my 12,500 relationship books, and though her moving out was "done deal" at the time, I thought it'd be interesting to take the test anyway. Scored a "Solid Marriage."
Just for FUN! I asked WW if she'd mind taking the test herself. She also scored a "Solid Marriage."
I said "hey, now THAT's pretty funny... we're blowing up a solid marriage!"


Something happened a few years ago, and I don't what... other than she became bored/depressed/empty. MLC, to some degree.
And I have family members who are sitting tight with their Narcissism "diagnosis."

I don't think unmet EN's is what's keeping her from coming back. I think it's guilt, shame, pride and (probably) addiction to OM. And I would NOT be surprised if PART of it is also her fear of hurting OM (now that he's destroyed his own M). I truly believe that she knows she destroyed a pretty good marriage.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ask her if you ever made her feel less about her physical self as it sounds like the OM does. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Talk about bizarre... I've never done anything but worshipped WW's ummm... physical self... and there's not a chance in the world that WW didn't know and feel that. So, what did she say to me (in prime fog time)? "You make me feel fat and ugly."


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does she think you are meeting someone there and she is jealous?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She's made references to it, and yes, ironically she's very jealous.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you discuss Christmas? Do you intend on exchanging gifts? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We discussed her plans, my plans... but she didn't say anything about seeing each other.
As far as gifts go... have no idea what she has in mind. Late last summer, we were doing a little clothes shopping, and she saw this Xmas sweater (this was a factory outlet) that she LOVED, and it was marked down from like $52,000 to $25. I tried to get her to get it, but she wouldn't (I think even THAT was a guilt-driven decision). So I did the same thing I've done lots of other times... I called the store later and had them hold the sweater for me, and thought I'd surprise her with it. I still have the sweater, so I've sorta been planning that if I give her anything, that'll be IT. Maybe she'll remember the thing, maybe she won't.
And, her birthday is the day after Xmas. I have NO idea what to do about it........


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I honestly think your WW is deep in the fog and probably depressed as well. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, and I think she has been depressed for several years now. She IS capable of acting perfectly happy and normal -- she does that at work every single day. But inside her head there's TONS of stuff going on. And she's ALWAYS kept everything inside of her -- always.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you have a mutual close friend that you might be able to reach out to? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I haven't been able to think of anyone. No one who would have the wherewithal to talk to her.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your WW needs to understand that with or without you she will have the same "issues" and they will follow her everywhere. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A long time ago, somewhere in the midst of all the chaos and turmoil, I tried to tell her that myself. She actually seemed to listen.

Hey tqt, sounds like you handled the other day great. I was afraid you would try and do too much, but you seem to have good instincts. Talk about game playing . . . I think limited contact has a lot to do with playing on human nature. In the way that making someone curious, makes them look more to you. And often in a positive light.

I remember when I chased my FWH around, trying to talk to him, reason with him, whatever, he just ran far and fast. I got a lot of anger, rage, just nastiness. Then when I detached, I got the phone calls, the emails, the lunch invitations. The conversations were still heated, and I still had to pay careful attention to what I would allow myself to become engaged with. BECAUSE, part of him still didn't want to be with me. Part of him still wanted to run. But the other part became more strong over time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, what did she say to me (in prime fog time)? "You make me feel fat and ugly." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is such an interesting clue into what is going on with your WW. For some reason, being around you, made her FEEL this way about herself. Just as for some reason, being around OM makes her feel a certain way about herself. And it doesn't really have much to do with either of you as individuals, IMO.

OR, it is pure fog-babble and means nothing. When my H was foggy, I really tried to listen to the things he said when he talked about his feelings. My H felt like he had no control over his own life, that he didn't make any decisions, that he was not listened to. The reason all these things happened to him wasn't because I am mean, but because he CHOSE to go along with whatever decisions I made. I always asked for his input, but he had a misconception about M that one person always has to "give in" and let the other person "win."

And the not listening to him part, I was NOT a good listener to him before the A. I would talk over, interrupt, with the belief that "I already knew what he was going to say." I really listened when he told me things I considered to be "clues," and tried to look as honestly and openly at myself as I could. And I took responsibility for those things to him. And me doing that really took away a LOT of the OW's power in bad-mouthing me. She would say mean things, and H would then say, "Well, she realizes those things and is working hard to change them." That's when OW started saying huffily, "Well, it sounds like you just want to go back to her!"

And not all things that H said during his foggy time apparently had any truth to them at all. Many hurtful things. "I just married you because I thought you were the best I could do." "We married too young, and for all the wrong reasons." And some moved into the laughable, even at the time (I only laughed on the INside): "I know now I never loved you because I was never jealous of you, and I am jealous of OW around other men." (maybe because I am trustworthy and honest, and he knew OW was a liar - as was he at the time) "I just married my best friend." (well, you can do a LOT worse than that in life, can't you? Lust only lasts so long, you gotta have something to fall back on!) And the one my family thought he should get the Best Actor Award for if it was true: "For the last 15 years, I only THOUGHT I was in love with you."

It is really hard to get into her "head" about why she has done such drastic actions the past couple years, culminating with this most hurtful and drastic of them all. But by using the clues they leave lying around, coupled with a good dose of honest/humble introspection, the lines of productive communication CAN be opened, IMO.

I definately had to start with the admissions of my own shortcomings, before ANYthing was forthcoming from H ~ at that time. When he is not foggy, my H is generally a very giving person.

I also encourage you to be not easily available to her at all times (you have been doing GREAT at this part). I have seen over and over, that while still so foggy, WS's will take whatever is offered from all sides, without giving anything back. They are bankrupt, morally and ethically, and really don't have much to give in their state, anyway, IMO. And, it is also my opinion, that they will stay in the cake-eater, fence-sitter position, until bumped off one way or the other.

If your WW's desire to communicate with you becomes strong enough, to begin seeing you in a favorable light, the fog will melt off a bit. When the fog melts off a bit, you can then perhaps engage her in constructive communication, by giving her examples of what you have realized about yourself recently. Or the pattern of your M. And try and be very specific. I was very specific about one particular "mean" thing I had done thoughtlessly over the years to my H. I did not do it maliciously to hurt him, but I continued to do it without protection of him. Turns out, that was a very specific thing that the OW had mentioned to my H, a reason she didn't think I deserved to be with him. I had no clue about that, until he told me. I was just trying to be as honest and open with him and myself as I could.

I was very honest about it, and told him it was stuff like that I had been thinking about, thinking how if he came back to the M, that I wanted to change. I told him I didn't WANT what we had before, I wanted something GREAT and WONDERFUL that we are BOTH happy about and proud of.

I wanted to leave my M, if it came to that, knowing I had honestly done my very best, so that I had no regrets. And that meant putting my pride aside.

So, now I am just rambling on and on. *sigh* Off to my very busy day (again). Can't wait until Thursday, NO WORK!

Spidey

<small>[ December 21, 2004, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

Hi Spidey!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, what did she say to me (in prime fog time)? "You make me feel fat and ugly."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think this is such an interesting clue into what is going on with your WW. For some reason, being around you, made her FEEL this way about herself. Just as for some reason, being around OM makes her feel a certain way about herself. And it doesn't really have much to do with either of you as individuals, IMO.

OR, it is pure fog-babble and means nothing. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've told her that she'd look beautiful in a %!@#&* burlap bag... (pretty romantic, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

To me, her "fat and ugly" statement seems beyond Fog Zone, and into some kind of "unwell" mental/psychological territory... but what do I know?

Stupid me, I actually tried to get the lame-@ss MC to at least ATTEMPT to dig into that statement and find out what it meant/means. Way over his head, apparently -- he wouldn't touch it.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But by using the clues they leave lying around, coupled with a good dose of honest/humble introspection, the lines of productive communication CAN be opened, IMO.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The way I perceive it -- and it's mostly perception, because in fearing the fallout I haven't wanted to "go there" recently -- any communication beyond smalltalk is immediately threatening to her and her WALLS go up fast and furiously. End result...something approximating "I know I made the right decision, I'm happy being alone, blah, blah..." I suppose that's normal stuff at this stage of the game(??)


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">thinking how if he came back to the M, that I wanted to change. I told him I didn't WANT what we had before, I wanted something GREAT and WONDERFUL that we are BOTH happy about and proud of. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's almost exactly what I said to WW in that "Plan A letter" (email) that I spoke of earlier. (It was on 12/2. I don't have the nerve to post it here)


But yesterday and today, I've been ALL over the map, emotionally. Today, mostly down... farther down than I should be. Not sure what happened since last week, when I was doing great. Xmas is probably part of it, and the rest I think is because she contacted me over the weekend -- ie. she got my hopes up again. It's so damn cruel, isn't it!?

So in an effort to get back to where I was last week, I'm trying my best to "detach" in whatever way(s) I can. That's going to be extremely difficult now through 1/1/2005. On Friday, she'll get in her car, I'll get in my car, we'll both drive 250 miles to our respective parents' -- a whole 2 miles apart. It's going to be really hard. Will it be hard for her, at all?!?

I have to figure out:

1) what to do about the Xmas present (the sweater). If I send it, do I include a note/card and if so, say what??
2) what to do about her birthday (the day after Christmas)
3) what to do (how to be) IF she calls me 12/24,12/25...
4) New Year's Eve (ugh) -- what do I do? Call her up and wish her a Happy New Year?!? Thinking about her spending NYE (I assume) and starting the new year with OM REALLY sucks....

Any advice?

<small>[ December 21, 2004, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: tqt ]</small>

(duplicate post)

<small>[ December 21, 2004, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: tqt ]</small>

The holidays just absolutely SUCK for this kind of thing. Ugh. I remember how I felt last year, and I am so blessed to be where I am this year. My H and I have certainly worked very hard to get where we are with our M, that's for sure!

How to handle certain situations? Honestly, I would let her take the lead. That is what I did. I distanced myself, detached, and if H wanted to communicate with me, he knew how to get ahold of me. They are so much more open to communicating when it is on their terms.

The sweater is a toughie, I can see that going either way. I have been thinking about that for the past day or so. IF she remembers it, and realizes what you did to get ahold of it for her (especially with such an AMAZING mark-down! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), that could deposit $L. However, it could also be seen as a way to manipulate her into remembering you.

I think that might be something you have to play as it unfolds, using all your senses and instincts. For instance, if you plan on giving it to her, but each time you have the opportunity she is bristly and cold, change your plan. And vice-versa.

As for the openess to communication thingie, I want to make certain you are trying my suggestion, not just THINKING you are trying my suggestion. So, I am going to embarrass myself and share my first revelation I spoke of crypitcally in my past posts, to give you an example of the type of stuff I am talking about.

Background, my H was in the Army for 6.5 years. That included a tour of duty in Korea for a year, when the boys were 4 months and 16 months old. Yes it was hard, lonely, we were so young and broke. I was terrified, but I went to school full-time, kept busy with my friends, and the year finally passed. Well, just before H came home for a short break, about 10 months into the tour, he confessed to me that he had allowed himself to get drunk, and be "talked into" having sex with a prostitute ~ one night when all his other friends did it too.

H realizes all those things are just justifications for him making a very poor choice. He knew as he was doing it that it was wrong, even though he had been drinking. He had turned down his friends' offers before, but this one time he gave in. And he felt terrible. I was crushed. At the time, I thought it was the worst pain I could feel (HA! It was NOTHING close to the A pain).

I "forgave" him, because I felt it was the "right thing to do." BTW, the heart doesn't always believe in the "right" thing, and neither of us properly healed from that. Over the years, at social functions, I would just blurt out very inappropriate comments about my H with this Korean prostitute. And I felt like it was OK, I was just being funny, etc. Honestly, now, when we have a lot of people over that know what has happened recently, and one of us (H or I) makes a joke about the A (laugh or cry, right?), it is very funny.

However, when one person feels embarassed or picked on, or any other negative emotion, it is no longer a "joke." It is an insult. Over the years, I had wondered if it hurt H when I said stuff like that. I might have even asked him. He, being the classic conflict avoider, assured me it didn't bother him. However, he had made some comments about it over the years when he was upset, and more important, if I was being totally honest with myself, I could remember seeing the pain in his eyes about it.

SO (good thing we are both so THOROUGH! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), during our separation, one night I was driving around with a good girlfriend of mine, her and her family are over a lot for dinner and games and stuff. She asked if she could tell me something, and she didn't mean to hurt my feelings, but she wanted to say something to me. I braced myself. She told me that if my H came home, maybe I shouldn't make those comments anymore. She said that as a FWW, if HER H made those comments to a room full of friends, she would have been FURIOUS with him.

I felt shame and embarassment that I had treated my H in such a way, and also blessed that I had a friend in my life who cared enough and loved me enough to be so honest with me. That realization opened the door to a WHOLE lot more stuff. Once I realized how that little voice in my head had told me over the years that doing that was not OK, I began searching for other instances that that same little voice was saying those same things.

Well, that very first realization that my friend told me about in the car that night, was the first I confessed to my H. And his walls came down that night, and we REALLY talked. I was as honest with him that night, as I was with myself in my own head. I felt very vulnerable and exposed doing that. And when he told me that my FBF/OW had told him the same thing, as reasons that we didn't "belong" together, I was shamed.

But, you know what??? I fessed up to all my shortcomings. She never did. She still denies everything to this day, and chooses to live in more lies and darkness and shame.

It is possible that your WW had her A in a healthy M. It is rare, but it does happen. I don't know enough about your life together over the years to make that call (or even have the training to make that call!). You know best, in those very quiet moments when you are very honest with yourself. IF there is ANY way you realize your actions may have hurt your WW, now is the time to take responsibility for them, IMO. Leave no stone unturned, before conceding your M is over, IMO.

Off to another busy day! I can't WAIT until tomorrow morning, and sleeping in! Wooo hooooo!

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The holidays just absolutely SUCK for this kind of thing. Ugh. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's getting worse every day... I wasn't expecting this. I can't wait for January 2.
It's like somebody removed the stitches too soon, and the wounds are opening up again.
Yes, the holidays absolutely suck.
I keep wondering...what in god's name goes thru the WS's mind right now? Are they feeling any extra pain at all??


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How to handle certain situations? Honestly, I would let her take the lead. That is what I did. I distanced myself, detached, and if H wanted to communicate with me, he knew how to get ahold of me. They are so much more open to communicating when it is on their terms. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I knoe that seems to be the universal rule. But one thing is driving me up a wall:

WHAT IF SHE'S DIFFERENT? WHAT IF, IN HER CASE, I SHOULD BE "PURSUING" HER, REMINDING HER EVERY DAY THAT I WANT HER TO COME HOME, AND THAT WE CAN FIGURE ALL THIS CRAP OUT?!?!

The odds are that there MUST be exceptions to "The Rules," and what if she is one of them?? What if I'm doing the exact opposite of what I should be doing?!??


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The sweater is a toughie, I can see that going either way. I have been thinking about that for the past day or so. IF she remembers it, and realizes what you did to get ahold of it for her (especially with such an AMAZING mark-down! ), that could deposit $L. However, it could also be seen as a way to manipulate her into remembering you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I sent it out this morning. Not wrapped, and with a little note, but no "Love's" anywhere...
I added a "ps. Happy Birthday too" and I guess that's all I'll do for her birthday... (it's Sunday)
but the other part of my brain is saying "of COURSE you HAVE to call her on her birthday, you idiot!"
I just don't know... I'm clueless.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As for the openess to communication thingie, I want to make certain you are trying my suggestion, not just THINKING you are trying my suggestion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But Spidey... for all intents and purposes, there isn't any communication at all!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, I am going to embarrass myself and share my first revelation I spoke of crypitcally in my past posts, to give you an example of the type of stuff I am talking about.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You didn't say anything to be embarrassed about. My first thought was that it was just the way you reacted to what your H did; it was coming from the hurt and anger you were still feeling over it(?) I hope you have forgiven yourself!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Leave no stone unturned, before conceding your M is over, IMO.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just this morning, I remembered that last New Years Day, we went furniture shopping. We were planning to completely re-do our bedroom. She initiated all of this. At that time, she was EA (but unknown to me), but not PA... maybe it means nothing, but there are so many other clues that say she had no intention of ending our marriage before this happened. She was unhappy with herself, her life, perhaps disillusioned with our M, but moreso out of her own unhappiness. (I should be using the word "Depression" or "MLC" -- but nothing was ever officially diagnosed, so I won't.)

I'm thinking that she just couldn't get unhooked from this [censored]... he made her feel better about herself... She holds everything inside though... I never knew she was unhappy!!

Then, over too much alcohol in a setting very conducive and convenient to such things (a 3-day conference out of town)... the PA "happened" .... she imploded due to the guilt/shame/regret/confusion... and it's been downhill ever since.

Just describing the story again makes me wonder all the more if I'm doing this right... maybe she needs someone other than OM (ie. me) to hold her hand.... and TRY, and TRY, and TRY to coax her back home safely.

We're creeping up on three months separation.

Same old question STILL churning thru my mind... constantly...

(1) Do I stand back...sit tight... and give it (her) more time...

or

(2) Do I go after her?


The first option means it's all up to her (as it should be, but what if... whatever's going on in her head... her issues, guilt, shame... won't allow her to do what her heart wants to do?). And the worst that could happen with THIS plan is... she drifts away, and/or I drift away, and one of us ultimately files for D.

And the 2nd option... if I never try it, or I try it too late... I'll never know the answer to the question: What if I had only...? And the worst that could happen with THIS plan is... I push her away even further, perhaps further into OM's arms. (My gut does NOT see that happening, for some reason. It could be my denial...ignorance...whatever)

I know, I know... the 2nd plan NEVER works... right?!?

tqt, I wish I had a crystal ball and could tell you what to do that will work best in the future. I know I wrestled with all these same questions. Until my separation was over, it seemed it would/could go on indefinately. Nobody knows for sure their M will recover until it does. That is why I come back here and post on the GQII board. To let people know that 1)marriages can recover, 2)WS's do come home after separations and impossible odds, and 3)the MB plans really do work.

My thinking is that if you see her "sickness," the A, with most of the symptoms you read about here on MB, then the "remedy," the different Plans, would be a logical way to go for the "treatment."

I questioned myself. And for 2 months of separation, I tried my own way. I tried the contacting, the relationship talking, the being here for him in case he needed me. Been there, done that, got a really big T-shirt so I wouldn't do it again.

Tried the limited contact thing. Only let him contact me, did not try to engage him when he did contact me, when we were together I was lighthearted, happy, and didn't bring up anything serious.

And an interesting thing happened. Much like what you have been seeing. More contact was initiated by the WS. More interest was taken in me. It began my H's "wake-up" process, to come out of his fog. I think in order to have hope that there is something outside of the fog, they have to see sunshine and daisies out there. YOU have to look like a better alternative to the FOG.

Give the limited contact some more time. I honestly don't think you will push her away from you more by doing this. I think your other actions did the pushing then. Plus, you sent her the sweater. So even if she is thinking that you are pulling away and might not love her, then she gets the sweater and knows you do.

How is everything going today? I began posting this yesterday afternoon, and just found it here this morning. Hm!

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think in order to have hope that there is something outside of the fog, they have to see sunshine and daisies out there. YOU have to look like a better alternative to the FOG.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm afraid all she sees outside the fog is an insurmountable task: facing her shame, her guilt, and herself.
Facing her own issues... her inability to do that is what led her down the wrong path to begin with. That's where the hope I feel begins to feel false -- what on earth is going to change that makes HER want to change enough so she WILL face things all of a sudden?

FWIW, NONE of her family can face reality head-on, deal with it, and move forward -- they run away from it. My SIL says this about her H (WW's brother) all the time. And he has some serious issues. WW' mother is the same way. It's like they were all emotionally stunted at 14. (which is actually possible, given the family environment/history/infidelity/divorce in her family back then.) It's like it's in the bloodline.

And this all sucks... and my thought process sucks right now, I know... because I'm an optimistic person, and I always have been, to a fault!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Give the limited contact some more time. I honestly don't think you will push her away from you more by doing this. I think your other actions did the pushing then. Plus, you sent her the sweater. So even if she is thinking that you are pulling away and might not love her, then she gets the sweater and knows you do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think your advice is sound, Spidey. It's just SO DAMN HARD for me to not "do anything" -- to basically sit and wait......


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How is everything going today?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not well, admittedly. But writing helps, and everything you've said helps. (thanks)

Is it Christmas, is that what it is? I was doing well, getting better and better... until this week hit.
It's like I'm starting the whole process over again! Starting to blame myself again, starting to really WANT her SO BAD. (I never stopped wanting her, but as you know I was starting to detach... starting to convince myself that there are better things waiting for me out there.)
The raw pain of rejection and betrayal and loss is back again. I'm intelligent enough about this stuff to know that what I'm feeling is normal. I hope. And it seems to make sense that this holiday CRAP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> will exacerbate all the pain... right?

I'm... I think it's fear -- I'm afraid of the next few days, the next week thru New Years. I feel like a stranger to myself. I haven't been "alone" at Christmas for 26 years --- it's scary. I know I'm feeling sorry for myself, and I have to snap out of it. And I know I WILL snap out of it... on January 2nd or so... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


ok... WW and I last talked on Sunday evening... the 30-minutes of nice conversation ended abruptly with her temper tantrum. Then I THINK she tried to call me Monday AM; no message. (it COULD have been someone else from her office trying to reach her).

Haven't heard from her since.

A theory: might she be feeling extra guilty this week, which is perhaps a reason she has NOT called?

Please help me with this... I have a hard time imagining that she will not call me sometime today thru Christmas day.
Well, scratch that... I can imagine it. But my plan is to NOT contact her at all. I sent the sweater, so that's IT. I'll deal with next week's plan later. Do you agree with that?
But assuming SHE calls ME... just be happy and upbeat and friendly?? Should I stay away from saying obvious things like "It's weird not being with you on Christmas Eve/Christmas/your birthday..." or "I MISS being with you on Christmas..."

Why don't I get it yet??


edited to add (three separate statements borrowed from alank's thread; thanks to alank, pep, WAT):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Are you willing to fight for your marriage... or are you going to bystand politely?

Want to know a secret?
Women think strong decisive men are attractive !

Sir, she may be wanting and waiting for you to fight for her ! She may interpret your pasivity as not loving her enough to fight for her !
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THAT'S what I'm afraid of!
I don't feel like I'm fighting for her. I feel kinda wimpy about all this. Maybe she sees it the same way?!?

<small>[ December 23, 2004, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: tqt ]</small>

First off, stop beating yourself up for feeling the way you do, having doubts about your actions/non-actions, and not "getting it."

You are in one of the most difficult positions you will possibly ever be in, and IMO you are handling it very well.

As far as "fighting for your M," there is a difference between fighting, and pushing your feelings/motivations onto another person. You are correct in saying that this is your WW's very strange and hurtful way of not effectively dealing with her own issues. This is something she has to figure out on her own. You can let her know you are there to support her, you are there to take this journey with her if she is interested in figuring out WHY she is making these poor choices, but you cannot force her to self-realize.

It is amazing to me how similar we are as BS's. I felt just as you do now. I would have hope, believe in us and our history together, then remember that my H has NEVER dealt with his own stuff productively. His father is a completely emotionally detached OR emotionally abusive (there is NO middle ground) man, who has ZERO communication skills. He can't even tell my children, his grandson's apart! He sees them maybe once a year, he came to my house for the first time about 3 years ago, a full 2 years after we moved in. And H's mother enables him in all of this.

Then there is me, my mother having 5 husbands, only a disabling disease slowed her down. Didn't meet my father until I was 14, I'm an only child, . . . the list goes on and on!

I guess that is where the detachment comes in. Your WW is either going to figure herself out, get motivated to find some answers for herself, or she isn't. You can support, influence, but you cannot do the hard work for her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm afraid all she sees outside the fog is an insurmountable task: facing her shame, her guilt, and herself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is where your personal recovery becomes so important, IMO. My H didn't believe 1)he could forgive himself, or 2)that our marriage could be recovered and healed, until he saw it in ME first. When each time he talked to me, he didn't see my pain. When he saw that I was going to be OK, whether he came home or not. When he saw that I was learning what a healthy M was, and that I still had hope of recovering ours. He saw a calm assurance in me. He had to do his hard work, but he knew that I was there willing and waiting on the other side, ready to receive him.

Miracles do happen, tqt. Each and every marriage that is recovered is a miracle in some way. That is how mine and H's M is better and healthier than ever ~ we BOTH realized lots of stuff about ourselves, and chose to change for the better, rather than continuing to ignore it.

Know what I think you should do sometime during this Christmas season? I think you should go volunteer at a shelter. Offer to be a server, or a cook, wherever you can be of service.

And, remember, they don't call this whole thing a rollercoaster for nothing, you know. You will get to the "top," and feel great and that you can make it no matter what. You will get to the "bottom," and question your actions, your motives, her actions and motives, doubt yourself and her and life in general. You just "keep on keeping on," hold onto the rollercoaster tight so you don't fly off on a sharp turn. And soon you'll find yourself on your way to the top again. And you'll think, "I wish I could stay up here all the time." But, it is a journey, not a destination. You will continue to move.

And also remember, growth hurts. Take this time that you have by yourself, and make the best of it. Read lots of relationship books, not just infidelity books. Read books about men, and learn how you are different than women. Read books about women, and learn why we are always right! Whoa!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Did I say that outloud??!!?? Just kidding. Thought I would lighten the mood after shoving all this other stuff down your throat. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Find an interesting hobby. Take a sculpting class. Turn your garage in the "man area" you always wanted. Learn how to ride a motorcycle. Join a volleyball team! Start working on your Masters Degree!!! You get the picture. Just get out there and start doing stuff. Your WW has a lot of work to do on her. You have a lot of work to do on you. Lead by example.

Spidey

Hi Spidey,
Hope you're enjoying your day off! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is something she has to figure out on her own. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's the bad news!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can let her know you are there to support her, you are there to take this journey with her if she is interested in figuring out WHY she is making these poor choices, but you cannot force her to self-realize. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spidey, how can I let her know? I'm talking logistics here...
From all that we've (you and I) talked about... I know... I have to DECIDE and be CONFIDENT that limited contact, and me not initiating it, is The Plan.
And if/when SHE initiates contact, I want to stay away from R-talk, right?

So... how can I let her know? Or I can assume that she DOES know already. But isn't it reasonable to also assume that she may need a gentle reminder "now and then" (whatever that means)? Or do you think I'm quaking in my boots over that (the "frequency factor") for no reason?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then there is me, my mother having 5 husbands, only a disabling disease slowed her down. Didn't meet my father until I was 14, I'm an only child, . . . the list goes on and on! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's a lot to go through!!
Not sure how to say this the best way, but... you should be very PROUD of yourself for being who you are today <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . Going thru the tough stuff can make some people stronger, wiser, more compassionate... and others don't deal with it nearlyas well.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Your WW is either going to figure herself out, get motivated to find some answers for herself, or she isn't.
You can support, influence, but you cannot do the hard work for her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are so, so, soooooooooo right.
I just don't know how to support and influence her when she's gone... same stuff as I said above, I guess.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Know what I think you should do sometime during this Christmas season? I think you should go volunteer at a shelter. Offer to be a server, or a cook, wherever you can be of service. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good intentions, anyway <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I thought about doing that, but between work and traveling out-of-state twice in the next week, it probably won't happen.
Volunteer work IS on my official goals list, though!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And also remember, growth hurts. Take this time that you have by yourself, and make the best of it. Read lots of relationship books, not just infidelity books. Read books about men, and learn how you are different than women. Read books about women, and learn why we are always right! Whoa!!! Did I say that outloud??!!?? Just kidding. Thought I would lighten the mood after shoving all this other stuff down your throat.

Find an interesting hobby. Take a sculpting class. Turn your garage in the "man area" you always wanted. Learn how to ride a motorcycle. Join a volleyball team! Start working on your Masters Degree!!! You get the picture. Just get out there and start doing stuff. Your WW has a lot of work to do on her. You have a lot of work to do on you. Lead by example.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I always knew I wouldn't have a problem being retired, because I can keep myself entertained pretty well <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I really don't have a shortage of things to do, and have added new things to my so-called-new-life. Probably added too many new things; I'm a person who needs to attack things with a passion and really get into it, which takes time (and time away from the other things). I do need to make some new friends, though. Most of our circle of friends were couples "via" her work, so they disappeared when she did...
My bigger problem now is lack of concentration/focus. Since she left, it always feels like there's something "more important" I should be doing -- something that will more directly or even indirectly help me to get her back! Sounds rather pathetic, said that way...