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Let's call this post "The Art of Rambling." </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">we'll just keep hanging onto this rollercoaster ride with you, and see where we end up.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It feels like the rollercoaster is stuck. And considering the price of admission to this place, that sucks! I THINK WW thinks I am out of town on vacation with my family. That was the plan originally, but it didn't materialize. If I were optimistic (and presently, I can't say I am), she might have called me by now for some reason, but has NOT because she thinks I'm with my family. I've been analyzing -- still -- our last interaction... (the phone call when I said "we love each other, and should be together") Until just last night, I've been thinking about the phone call as a potential positive... she's still thinking... she didn't say "NO"... she didn't say "I don't feel that way".... she didn't say "I don't think so." And then last night, it hit me. A more likely explanation, and a simple one. The reason she didn't say any of those things is because she didn't want to hurt me. Sound reasonable? ------------ This "Hang Out and Wait" (H.O.W.) approach seems to work for me -- for a few days, and as long as the last "event" seemed positive. Otherwise, H.O.W. is making me nervous, dragging me down, and at least FEELS like a slow, downward spiral to an ultimate demise of the M. I'm human, and she at least used to be, or I thought she was, and human nature is such that all this time that's ticking by is pushing us further apart. Maybe I'm just plain old WRONG about that. I doubt it, though. She's learning to live the single's life; it's becoming more comfortable every day. Another "milestone" comes tomorrow -- she ends the year and starts the new year with OM. I feel myself running out of something -- I'm not sure what it is -- energy? love? interest? hope? She's had 3 months. Other than anger and some sadness, she has shown no other emotions (to/with me) in all that time. At least I haven't recognized any. H.O.W. is gonna kill me. This could go on forever. She says nothing. Does nothing. Doesn't move to end it all. Doesn't move to explore reconciliation. WHAT THE HELL IS SHE DOING????!?!? I think she's done with the M, and this (ending it/filing for D/TELLING ME she's done) is just one more issue she can't face. MY options, as I see it right now: 1) call it quits, and file for D 2) give her a lobotomy 3) give myself a lobotomy 4) push HER to TELL me: --- it's over, time to get the legal stuff out of the way, and I have no reservations about it, OR --- sometimes I think I'd like to try, but I just can't get myself to make the first move 5) pursue her; a proactive Plan A of sorts; in Friend Mode 6) pursue her; in I-Love-You-and-I-Want-You-Back-and-Let's-Work-On-Our-Issues Mode 7) go to Plan B immediately (which seems ridiculous in some ways, in this situation) 8) continue H.O.W. if I can stand it for a while longer 9) ? ? what am I forgetting?
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Dont do anything...just take care of yourself.
Forget about WS for now. There is nothing you can do for her.
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In a nutshell, what zizzy said. Except, so few words!
Pep wrote something to John the other day on his thread about should he give up, because his BW thinks about coming back home to him, but then she gets some triggers, and says she'll never get over teh betrayal, yadda yadda.
I was telling John not to give up, hasn't been long enough (his road had been about as long as yours). I told him to lead by example, just as I tell you.
Pep got on there and told John that is sounded like he didn't like sitting with uncomfortable emotions/feelings. I am beginning to think that this is where your ansiness is coming from. Things in your life are not in an acceptable state for you, and you want to change them but you have no control to change your WW ~ and you view her feelings as the things that need to change.
What if it is all inside you, tqt? What is the harm in simply waiting it out? What is the harm in giving your WW the space, time, and opportunity to work out her own issues? Why do you feel compelled to change what you are doing?
Nothing is running out. Really, in the "grand scheme of things," how long is 3 months in relationship to your entire relationship with your WW? Seriously, what is the mathmatical ratio? Why are you so quick to think that giving your WW time and space for this short duration, will negate ALL that other time you have spent together?
Could it be that the opposite is true? Could it be that giving her the time and space to MISS you and REMEMBER - without the typical WS-history-rewrite - all those other wonderful years together??? Huh? Huh? Huh?
Keep with this process. Remember, tqt, not all communication is equal. I would rather of had during my separation from my a 3-minute conversation where our friendship and deep love came through (even disguised as "casual conversation"), than have him ranting and raving on the phone with me (or vise-versa) for 90 minutes.
The process you are in facilitates, IMVHO, more of the 3-minute-meaningful conversations.
Hang on tight. Your rollercoaster is just on a flat area, which is why you are probably craving "action" of some kind. Even something scary/bad is better than just sitting there, huh? I lived it, I know, I remember.
But you are still moving. These things create their own momentum. Just sit back, PRACTICE sitting with these uncomfortable emotions/feelings, and it will all happen on its own. One HUGE lesson I learned from my H's A was PATIENCE. I had to sit back and let it all just happen as it would. Each time I tried to push or make things happen, stuff blew up in my face.
Spidey
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Tgt,
I’ve read your thread and like others here can only say that I have had your pain and understand very well where you are at this time. The thing is, however, you can weather this storm and have your marriage back if you want it. But you aren’t going to get to have anything based on your own time line. If you want to succeed in this arena then the first and most important attribute you will have to acquire is patience.
In fact, it’s during this new chapter in your life, that you will first begin to really learn about attributes often discussed but never truly understood. In fact I have no reservations in saying that if you decide to stick this out, then no matter what happens to your marriage, you will end this chapter a much wiser and more mature man.
So here’s what I would do in your situation. Learn to communicate. Stop talking to your wife and start sending her your message by SHOWING her! This means that you have to stop doing all the things that irritate her and cause her to find you offensive. You have to come to terms with the fact that right now she is in another time and place where you can’t reach her in the same way you once did. If you can’t accept this reality then you are doomed to continue as you are, suffering and making her suffer until one or the other of you have to end it!
Do you want proof of what I say? Then ask your self where your WW is currently residing. Couldn’t she have stayed in your home and cheated from there? LOL Of course she could have! But she chose not to because she needed to get away from you! Get it? From you! So what you want to do is reverse that mindset and find a way to draw her back to you.
So from now on when you have a chance to see her what you will do is just shut your mouth and listen!
Say as little as possible and learn to listen. No matter how stupid, mean or cruel the things she may say you will not say anything! What you will learn to do is sit there in front of her, (always make sure that she can see your face) make total eye contact at ALL times and just encourage her to talk to you. You will bring up nothing. If she asked you something, you will simply respond by making banal, meaningless remarks of no value, which tell her nothing! This will cause her to continue talking, which is what you want!
You will offer no advice, no solutions to problems, no feelings of sympathy, and you will certainly make no complaints! All you will do is listen to her and learn how to show concern by making eye contact; thus evidencing to her your genuine attention and interest in what she’s saying!
And Tgt, if you can just first do this one little thing, I promise you there will be more times together with her and they will come more frequently then you will believe possible. And boy, will you finally learn some things about your wife for the first time! You will hear stuff that will turn your hair gray! She will tell you stuff that she would never have believed possible to ever tell anyone! And you will suck it all up and just keep your mouth shut! Never but not ever referencing any of her remarks to you. Instead, what ever she tells you will finds it’s final resting place in your head and heart. As if it was never said at all.
As this progresses, you will begin see that you are providing her something that is even more addicting to her then the affair! Something so special that she will need to come only to you to provide it. After all, who else will she ever be able to trust in the way she will learn to trust you? But the key here is that she must come to this conclusion on her own. You will want to hasten the process by telling her that she can trust you! LOL Do you have any idea how stupid that would be? Just think about it. Then resolve yourself to the long process ahead, during which she finally come to realize how important you are in her life.
Now during this process, a couple of other things need to happen in “real-time.†You have to allow yourself to emotionally disconnect. You have to stop showing your pain! This is where that fact that your WW has moved out, will work to your advantage. So what you need to do is be pleasant and cheerful when ever you’re not alone! Never discuss your WW with friends and especially do not complain about her. You must show the world a very kind man that has no anger and is having no regrets. In stead, you must play the role of a very reserved, kind and rational person who is enjoying his life.
Get new hobbies and make new friends. Go out to new places. Get a new haircut! If you hair is long, cut it short! If it’s short, let it grow long! Shave your head and go bald for a while! But change the way you look! If you’re fat, loose the weight! Just do it! If you’re to slim, work out at the gym and put on muscle!
Get some new cloths that totally are not who you are! Bring some one along to help you buy them to be sure that the stuff is still in good taste but buy them. Force yourself to do things that she would never believe you would do! Join a local amateur theater group! You don’t have to act or sing or dance. They need folks to sell tickets and build sets too! Join one and be involved. Take a course in a local community college! Make it about something bizzare! Like underwater basket weaving! Just be busy!
And you never tell her about any of it! Never! She will find out on her own, trust me she will! LOL And when you get together and she notices that you look different, just smile at her comments and say thank you at the appropriate times and just shrug your shoulders if she offers criticism, showing no offence taken on your part! In fact, if she makes a remark at your expense, laugh at yourself while agreeing with her that she MIGHT be right; as if to say but so what if you are!?
Now all of this will take time! And all during this time she will be doing things that hurt you beyond belief. But if you want to save your marriage then you will have to harden yourself to this pain. That’s why you need to keep busy and learn to have a new life. You must show her no pathetic or sad behavior. You must show her no anger or judgment of her. You must show her no negative feelings about anything she tells you. You will become a sphinx. Silent and steady in your resolve always there, a constant yet changing fixture in her life! And in the end she will feel the need to know this new you better! She will need to figure out who this new man is. She will be forced to wonder what happened to the husband that she so wanted to avoid because he made her feel shame and anger! It’s when this happens that you two will have a chance to reunite and go forward. This is when her fog will begin to clear and she will first be ready to listen. But it will take time and it will take work.
If you can learn to do these things, however, then you will not only have your marriage back, but you will become so much more then you already are! Learning to behave in this fashion is simply a matter of habit! How to listen with interest can be learned. How to not be mean spirited or judgmental can be learned. How to be kind and polite can be learned. How to keep your mouth shut and not say stupid things can be learned. Knowing when not to answer a question can be learned. Knowing when to just turn and walk away from a conflict can be learned! And let’s face it, these are not bad things to learn or do you disagree..
So what do you think? If you want to discuss it off line e-mail me, coach3530@yahoo.com
Coach
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In a nutshell, what zizzy said. Except, so few words! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ain't that the truth! Thanks zizzy... but your efficiency and conciseness caught me off guard. Don't you know this is the thread where you're supposed to use at least 450 words per sentence? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if it is all inside you, tqt? What is the harm in simply waiting it out? What is the harm in giving your WW the space, time, and opportunity to work out her own issues? Why do you feel compelled to change what you are doing? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, Spidey, I guess it is all inside me. I know that the only chance I have of getting her back is to let the A run its course. We have so little communication, though, that I don't even know the status of the A. And yes, I DO feel compelled to change something. Why? Because something's "broken"... I want to "fix" it. Same old thing. It's those "what if's..." that are keeping me on edge. And I just can't shake the feeling that "no action" means "drifting farther away..." But, what you say makes sense... Opinions, please: What I should plan on re: a "Happy New Year" phone call, if anything? If she doesn't call me first, do you think I should call her at all this weekend?
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No, tqt, do not call her. She must not feel pursued in any way by you. That is the only way to "turn the tide." coach has some very good points, tqt. I know you feel you have done all the things we keep encouraging you to do with yourself, but . . . the fact that your M is in crisis says that there is still work yet to do on you. Turn your focus away from your WW. No, you don't know the status of the A, and you probably won't for a while yet ~ resign yourself to that. ACCEPT that. Focus on you and your life. If you WW contacts you and adds herself into your day in that way, great. If not, at least you have no distractions that day from your plan on YOU. So, what are some things you are going to begin working on??? I want specifics. Are you going to learn to ride a motorcycle, cut off your long hippy hair, or join a TV reality show? Hmmmmmm, I'm thinking cutting off your long hippy hair!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Spidey
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Thank you coach. I need to digest your words a bit more before responding. In the meantime, I VERY MUCH appreciate your help and encouragement. Spidey, Yes, of course there is still work to do on me. I know that. There was never a day in my life when I was satisfied with the status quo (of and about myself first, everything else second), and that's particularly the case now. I know the onus is on me to draw her back. I know I share responsibility for creating the environment which helped her go astray. But this depresses me: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the fact that your M is in crisis says that there is still work yet to do on you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Help me out here... doesn't that statement imply that my M would be intact if it weren't for the fact that there's something "wrong" with me? That puts me back in self-flagellation mode. All for now... gotta go shave my head before hitting the gym <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Help me out here... doesn't that statement imply that my M would be intact if it weren't for the fact that there's something "wrong" with me? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good heavens no!!! Oh my. No, the fact that your WW looked OUTside the M to deal with the issues she had with you and/or the M, is 100% on her. That is her poor choice, that no matter if you D or recover your M, she will regret for the rest of her life. Make no mistake about that. And I did make a pretty bold statement. Know that I am human, and perhaps don't always phrase things the best of ways. Sometimes this posting thing is frustrating, because the communication is soooooo 2-dimentional. I just meant that A's rarely happen in healthy, strong M's. Dr. Harley says they can, BUT, . . . my experience on these boards so far has been, there is usually something not working. And sometimes it is circumstance. Sometimes the M is strong, but life hits the couple with personal tragedy, and opportunity comes along, and bad things happen. But there is a REASON that she had the A, and that she left. That reason DOES NOT make it OK for her to have an A. There are hundreds of other, less painful ways, that she could have begun trying to communicate it to you. I think what happens a lot, is that the WS doesn't REALIZE they are unhappy. Maybe they do, but they don't really know why. Oftentimes, finding this answer is done by both of you. The primary reason my H had his A, for example, is because he never cultivated any self esteem. He relied heavily on what others thought of him, as to how he felt about himself. We call it his "Boyscout." Now, don't get me wrong, one of the reasons that I love him is because of his giving nature. However, that can easily morph into something ugly, can't it? Much like why I used to do things in my own life. I wasn't really looking for my self-esteem, I was looking for acceptance, I think. But that is something that I have looked very closely at. I use different criteria now when I make decisions in my life. I no longer think, "If I do xyz, will so-and-so think more of me?" I think, "Will doing this be fulfilling to me, or just irritating?" Big difference. Anyway, back to H. When single mom of 2, my FBF OW used to ask him to do such-and-such (help her get old carpet in her attic, help set up her computer, talk with her during her last boyfriend breakup because I was too busy at work to talk to her, etc.), she would tell him how WONDERFUL he was. Such a family man, good provider, generous heart, blah blah blah. Which is stuff I told him all the time! But you know what? He didn't believe it when I told him. He thought I just "had" to say that. Not that he thought I was lying, but maybe he didn't believe he was a good husband/father? Anyway, you see, that was HIS issue. And he didn't realize it until he started coming out of the fog. Until he saw me moving forward and wanted to come with me. Until he became MOTIVATED. That is what you can create by moving forward, leading by example ~ her motivation to come back to you, the M, and seek answers to all her questions she is having about everything right now. There are other things in our M that happened over the years. Not intentional. Just out of ignorance. Not understanding what a healthy M looks like, from the inside OR the outside. And 8 months of MC later, we are both beginning to understand that! So, do not flagelate yourself. I didn't mean it that way. You are doing awesome. You are a great guy, I can tell. That is another reason I see so much hope in your sitch. I can see why your WW stayed with you for so long, even without kids! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Remember, when you shave your head, you should use sun protection - a hat, or some SPF. And the benefit is that you can wash your head with a washcloth! Chat at you later. Sorry if I hurt your feelings inadvertently. Spidey
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Excuse the expression, but... WOW. The more we get into this, not only does it get more "complicated," but... Spidey, you were right on when you said you saw similarities in our situations... and you said that a long time ago. Coach... this medium makes things more challenging in some ways, so that's why I'm still digesting your words, rather than shooting from the hip. I do not take lightly the things that you said. What I'm doing now is t h i n k i n g. And I need more time to do that. I'm as tired as anyone who has endured my spouting off and thinking out loud. In case I don't get another chance to say this before midnight tomorrow (although I will try): Happy New Year to All. 2005 is going to be much, much better. 2005 is going to be awesome! ps. Spidey, you didn't hurt my feelings. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> pps. I look like HELL with no hair.
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Good news... I only have a second, so can't write much. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
One thing is bothering me about the no-contact approach.
A month or so ago, I said to her "maybe we should try talking more often than we have been, and maybe we can get all this stuff figured out."
She replied "OK."
It just seems like every time I've given her a nudge in that direction (ie. more communication, more of the "let's figure this out"), she seems receptive to it. Like she needs someone (me?) to take her out of Park and put into Drive. I can imagine that feelings of unworthiness, shame, guilt could do that to her.
And, I've never even tried to follow through with it. I've given a nudge, then backed off. Several times.
What I'm suggesting above is possible, isn't it?
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Like she needs someone (me?) to take her out of Park and put into Drive. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It has been my experience, both personal, and on these boards, that YOU are not the one that can do this for her.
It is my experience that everything that "seems" to be a good idea, that "seems" like it will work, when dealing with Affairs, will not work.
Your WW must have time to miss you. Your WW must have the opportunity to come TO you, NOT you to her. She cannot be lead along by you, SHE must find it within herself to either 1)lead herself out, or 2)reach out to someone and seek assistance.
I understand what you are saying. I struggled with this myself. I ALWAYS took care of my H when he had his little "breakdowns" over the years. I was of the opinion, as was he before the A, that he would be insane without my intervention. Then he really DID have a mental breakdown. And I could not save him. I could not help him. Each time I tried, it got worse.
You must let her figure this out on her own. Seek your own answers. Work on you. Lead by example. She is watching, even if you don't realize it. You WANT her seeking out your changes. Leading by example, teaching by example, is the most powerful way to lead and teach. And that is what she needs right now ~ the most powerful way, to help her bust away her own fog.
You can be the lighthouse, draw her toward your light. You cannot tugboat her out.
See the difference?
Spidey
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You must let her figure this out on her own.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wonder if any FWW's did get to a point where they figured it out... but were too shamed and/or proud to act on it(?) Could've sworn I read a post at some point from a FWW that said something like "I didn't feel like I deserved to go back." Even if my theory -- and it's just a theory -- is half correct in my WW's case, you'd think she could drop a hint at some point, at least. Otherwise, I'd have to say she does NOT deserve to come back..........! Thanks Spidey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Almost time to get that ice bucket out, isn't it?
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Hey tqt,
Hows it going? How is the backing off thing going, are you actually sitting back and letting your WW make the moves? It kind of seems like you are but aren't at the same time ie. giving little nudges. Do you see any changes? I'm just wondering where your at right now.
Native
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Hi Native, How's it going, you ask? Well, if this isn't purgatory, then I'll eat my shorts. As much as I love her, I hope she has miserable New Year's Eve... somewhere in her brain... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Thanks for checking in -- much appreciated. Hang in there, Native. I'll try to do the same. And Happy New Year, bro! tqt
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Yeah I hear ya... going to have a great New Years myself all alone, while WW is out on the town with OM#2. Oh well, I'd rather be here with my kids anyway. I don't think it's wrong of us to hope that our WW's have a crappy New Years Eve.... personally I'm hoping she gets a DUI. Okay just kidding, but maybe not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Native
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Wonder if any FWW's did get to a point where they figured it out... but were too shamed and/or proud to act on it(?) Could've sworn I read a post at some point from a FWW that said something like "I didn't feel like I deserved to go back." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">tqt, I think this is exactly how she feels. It is MY opinion, that she needs to work a lot of this stuff out on her own. You have shown her that you are willing to wait, since you haven't filed for D.
IMO, the best thing you can do for her right now, is let her know that you believe in HER. I sense right now that you DON'T believe she can work this out on her own. I have to tell you, for many reasons, for the first 2 months of our separation, I had NOOOO faith at ALL that my H could get himself straightened out - IC or no IC.
Then I realized that I cannot be his savior. I had enough work to do on ME, I couldn't save him. And I began remembering his good qualities, things I hadn't remembered seeing in years. And I began slipping those qualities back to him in the few conversations he initiated. I showed my confidence in HIM, that if he wanted to, he could do anything ~ to include figuring out what was going on in his own head.
Because that is why he ended up in the A! Why our M ended up in crisis. Because he had no confidence in HIMSELF to begin with. My DH had to pull himself up, from the bottom of a deep dark hole that he put himself in, by himself. And he is a different man today because he did that himself. I don't have worries of renewed contact, false recovery, etc. My H made the decision on his own, and it has stuck.
Having your WW turn back to the M is a very small step in the overall process. Save and conserve your energy for the hard work down the road. Work on you. Work on remembering your WW in a way that you can show your confidence in her figuring this out for herself. You cannot be her surrogate-father. You are her H, her best friend she will ever have. Play on your strengths, and lead by example.
Spidey
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This is gonna be a long one.... As of this morning, things are different. Spoke to SIL last night, and got the scoop re: WW at Xmas..... (WW was staying at her mother's house, which is where the family gathered for Xmas.) Here's what SIL told me: OM wanted to go with WW for Xmas; WW told him no. WW was, in general, quiet and not particularly happy at the family gatherings. WW said she did NOT feel good about WW/OM's infamous 3-day weekend getaway (in early November, I think?) SIL got the impression from what WW said that WW was considering coming back at one point, but was very angry about exposure email to WW/OM's boss. (Sounds like that may have been HUGE mistake on my part.) WW's family still disapproves what WW is doing, and refers to OM mockingly. OM called WW on Xmas day, WW wasn't there to take the call. WW's mother told WW "you know who called" and WW started to call ME. WW's mother said "No, the other one." (maybe I was first on WW's mind...go figure...) I thought this was interesting: WW loves animals, never liked hunting as a rule. OM hunts. SIL said WW was going overboard trying to justify hunting was ok. Guess the fact that she's still in "OM can do no wrong" mode is not good... So... in review... my last contact with WW was 12/26 phone call when she was half in the bag, and ranted for an hour. Then she called to apologize morning of 12/27, and I said "We love each other, and we should be together. Let's get all this stuff out on the table and get our act together. Think about it." She replied "ok." Miscellaneous, DISorganized thoughts...... Best guess is that the EA started 15 months ago. 15 months later, WW still does not want OM to be with her at Xmas??? WTF??!?! All along I've suspected that OM has been pressuring WW BIG-TIME. If I ran into OM right now, I'd end up in jail. The pathetic little dweeb deserves to have the crap pounded out of him. No, I'm not a violent person. WAY far from it. But right now I'm so !@#^*&$! pissed off... I'm still convinced WW wishes she could wake up, and this whole thing be nothing more than a bad dream. She's weak. REALLY REALLY WEAK. Stubborn, proud, and WEAK makes a miserable combination. I STILL do NOT feel good about this pseudo-Plan B/going dark on her. I think it was WAT who a couple months ago said "tell her you want to rebuild the M, and you have a plan." "Tell her you'll help her get rid of the OM." Spidey, you say "lead by example." Then there's "be a lighthouse." MelodyLane said "show her a path home built on love and forgiveness." (paraphrasing) How can I do any/all of the above, with no contact? Coach said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you want proof of what I say? Then ask your self where your WW is currently residing. Couldn’t she have stayed in your home and cheated from there? LOL Of course she could have! But she chose not to because she needed to get away from you! Get it? From you! So what you want to do is reverse that mindset and find a way to draw her back to you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think she left to get away from me. She even said on moving day "why am I doing this?" She left in an attempt to escape from her pain. Her pain was (is?) guilt and shame. Spidey, you said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMO, the best thing you can do for her right now, is let her know that you believe in HER.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree. My "Plan A letter" (email) on 12/2 told her that in no uncertain terms. But you know what? It's getting harder and harder for me to believe in her as time goes on. And with no contact, how could I do that anyway? I'm getting more and more disgusted with her. The thought of her sleeping with another man is getting more and more sickening to me. I'm getting angrier about everything. Either she's IN the FOG, or she's not a person I SHOULD want to spend my life with. And I don't think she's "IN the FOG!" I think she's probably depressed, and definitely weak, and definitely has multiplied her own issues a hundred times over. I'm starting to RE-evaluate the last 24 years of our relationship. And there are definitely arguments AGAINST wanting to spend the rest of my life with her. All my friends and family have told me "you deserve better." That's normal stuff, in a situation like this. But they've ALSO told me: "She's NOT that good." I'm starting to believe them. And WHAT is she DOING now? Still thinking things over? Trying to choose between me and OM? Can't find the time to call an attorney and get the D ball rolling? She's been gone three months. The A's been going on 15 months. What, exactly, is giving her more time going to do? She won't seek counseling on her own. OM is using her, and whether SHE likes it or not, wants it or not, they are GOING THROUGH LIFE TOGETHER. In March, WW is going on vacation to Fla with her mother. For the last three years, WW and I took this vacation together. (Last March it was immediately after confronting her about the A; WW really wanted us to still go together. And we did. She had NO intention of ending our M!) Point is: if OM goes with WW on THIS March vacation... she'll find D papers in her mailbox when she gets back. But... I can't do this, whatever it is I'm doing, for another two months. Enough venting for now. Thanks for listening. Happy New Year <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,442
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Posts: 2,442 |
Oh my gosh!!!!! This is soooo weird!!! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I thought this was interesting: WW loves animals, never liked hunting as a rule. OM hunts. SIL said WW was going overboard trying to justify hunting was ok. Guess the fact that she's still in "OM can do no wrong" mode is not good... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In MY case, the OW is an avid hunter, and suddenly, I was blamed by my FWH for never supporting his love of hunting! From a man who has never killed anything!!! Who indicated to me for 15 years of our relationship that he didn't WANT to kill anything. *sigh* It is all just justification/rationalization. OK, tqt, I am not forcing you to do anything. If you don't like the position/plan you are currently in, then do what you want to do! If this approach doesn't "feel" right to you, change it. It is good she is taking time away from you AND him and maybe doing some thinking. My H had to totally cut himself off from me, to straighten out his feelings about me. I know you get conflicting advice here. Personally, that is what I liked about MB. I found posters who I really understood, with sitches similar to mine, and I listened to their storied, and made my own decisions. Just as you must do. There will be contact, but it should be innitiated by her, IMO. So much more gets accomplished and communicated, IMO. This is all just MY OPINION. This is what I now know, after learning these lessons the very hard way. I share hoping they help others, hoping others' WS's think like mine did. I also discuss these things with my H regularly, to make sure I am not beginning to "make it up," that he really did think certain things, certain ways. I say these things to you with nothing but the best intentions. Please know that. However, I hold you to no accountability to me. You must do what you feel is right. That is all you can expect of yourself. "Do the best in the situation you are in, with the information you have." tqt, do you realize that my H lived in a tiny apartment by himself, for 3 whole months, AFTER the OW dumped him??? Put yourself in my shoes. What the HE!! was my H waiting for? What was he doing? What was he thinking? How AWEFUL did he think I was that he would rather have NOTHING than ME??? Then I realized, I didn't have one thing to do with my H's A. Or the aftermath. It was HIS journey. His path that had to be followed, and either turned around or further from me. But it was HIS path, HIS choice, HIS decision. I had to accept that I was a small factor in his life, his mind, at that time. It was all about HIM. HIS happiness, HIS life, HIS blah blah blah. Selfish??? Heck yeah!!!!!! Do I forgive him his selfishness? Yes. Because I believe that I love him in his good, his bad, and his ugly. And oh baby, I SAW the ugly. And I still love him. And that is why he came home. I even read letters he wrote to OW, where he said that me and the boys still wanted him back, even after all he had done to hurt us. And that THAT was true love. My feelings for my H are not dependent on his feelings for me. That is the hardest thing I learned to do. Love, with expectation of nothing in return. And when I achieved that, I received more than I thought possible. Try not to let your ego take over right now. I understand. Still, I can be overcome with my ego thinking. "How could he? Why should I? What have I done????" I followed my heart. I followed my commitments and my promises that I made all those years ago. Just because he didn't, doesn't mean I am less responsible for my own, does it? But, these are all things you have to search your heart for, tqt. Not tqt the man, the big strong man, who deserves "better." tqt, the human being, the individual, the closest friend and confidant that your W has ever known. The OM is not real, tqt. You are. YOU are the first she thinks about to call. YOU are the first she thinks about each morning and each night, before and after sleep, I bet you. Please don't underestimate the influence and power you still have in her life. "Reevaluating" the past 24 years . . . be careful with that . . . it is what she did to your relationship to justify/rationalize her A. It is called the fog, and yes, BS's can become enveloped in it, as well. Everything I have posted to you is included in being the lighthouse. Draw her to you, not pull her to you. Things have a way of happening. Prepare yourself to knock her socks off next time she contacts you. That might mean just sitting there again for 2 hours letting her vent and rant to you. Probably years of repressed resentment coming to the surface. Some stuff is made up, foggy. Some stuff is real. Don't argue her feelings. Acknowledge her. Tell her it sounds as if you have inadvertantly hurt her over the years, and you are committed to waiting for her, and if she chooses to reconcile with you, you are committed to rebuilding the M new so that both of you can thrive and grow. Because you want to be with your best friend and life partner for forever. THAT is true love. Is it also being a doormat? Some say yes. Everything has two sides. Two perspectives. Abundance and scarcity. Peace to you. Spidey
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 321
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 321 |
Spidey I think I have said this before but you are truely awesome. My last week or so is reflected so much in tqt's words. I feel everything he feels, especially the waiting issue. Then you and coach pipe up and make things so much clearer and easier to grasp. I need to have someone tell me what to do because I am truely lost in this thing called love.
I believe you are right when you said it was about HIM, HIS choice, HIS journey. I want nothing more than to have my H pull his head from his butt and figure out what it is he wants, but I need to go be me without him in the meantime. I just am having a he** of a time leaving him alone. I try to stay busy but....
Anyhow thanks...your words are so helpful.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,442
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Waitingwithouthope, the first thing I think you should do is change your name. What is in a name??? A LOT. Turn your own personal tide by changing how you think about your sitch each time you come here to read and post ~ both consciously, and subconsciously.
WaitingWITHhope. Because that is what you are doing. If you had no hope, you would not be here, IMO. Our thoughts create our reality. Not the other way around. Shift your thoughts, shift your reality.
My major turnaround was when I changed my name here. I was no longer who I thought I was. I was MORE. Mine was not about killing spiders. It was about overcoming my FEAR. And I was afraid of a LOT of stuff. I chose not to be a victim. I chose to live my life in a way that reflected what I believe in ~ REGARDLESS of what those around me chose to do.
Start with your name, friend. Think about it.
Spidey
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