</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My gut says its over and he is just too damned scared to admit it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well said...I think that might just sum the whole thing up on my end, too.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We will suffer in silence together. When it happens you will be the first to hear my tears. And I will be here for you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stop choking me up, Homer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
Stay strong, ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Geez, you guys sure are looking at the dark side of things today. Heavens! You all need a ray of sunshine on your faces, with a long walk to boot! I promise both of you, everyone who is in recovery right now has thought the same thoughts you are both thinking. Homer, you are a long way from done, and so is your WH. I don't think your WH knows which way is up right now, he's so confused. Just sit tight, and let his reality hit him squarely between the eyes.

tqt, you are coming very close to your personal limit, I think. Seems that you have a limit, this one final week-long trip to FL with OM, that you just will not accept. I have heard you mention this trip as a reference point for you before ~ what it will mean to you if she goes with him.

Honestly, I just am cautioning you to slow down a bit. How you feel right now, is not necessarily how you are going to feel in a few weeks. I think you owe it to yourself to put out your requirements - ON THE TABLE, in FRONT of her - and get her response before you decide on Plan D. If you want to do your Plan B-version over the phone, or in person, great. But I would give her that list you posted, verbally or in writing, and tell her that those things are required for her to be in your life. In your life at all.

And then withdraw from her completely. Give her the opportunity to see for herself what her life is like with NO tqt, at all. I know that you care for her still. That you worry about her. And also that major changes will have to take place before you would let her back in. But just as an addict doesn't think straight, neither is she. Please give her the opportunity to live her reality (Plan B - no contact), before you make it permanent (Plan D).

I understand how you say that you might never feel safe that she is taking care of herself, not going to fall apart and hurt you with her own inability to cope. I understand, because I still live that with my H. I don't think he will ever consciously or purposefully hurt me again, but because of his youth/parents/genetics/whatever, he is not the most stable person. He is more stable now than ever, but . . . it sure did hurt when he lost himself for a while. It sure did hurt me.

I don't know if I've told you this, but my H had a ONS in Korea when he was stationed there for a year. With a prostitute. He was drinking with his friends, they all did it, they paid for it, blah blah blah. Which are all just excuses for poor behavior. And that "mistake" of his hurt me terribly. Then this A. He sees them as totally different, and I understand what he is saying, from HIS perspective. But from MY perspective, 2 times my H has chosen to disregard the vows we took, in order to see if he "liked" something.

This was a huge issue in MC for us. Because I don't think it is OK for someone to "learn and grow" on the back of someone else. The back meaning, someone paying the price for it, someone carrying the load of that learning.

I am telling you this, because even recovered marriages have chinks in the armor. Flaws. I live this M one day at a time. Today, my H is with me, he is taking care of himself, we are communicating, we love and respect each other. Today.

And when I think of moving on to another relationship, I realize that nobody is perfect. There will be chinks and flaws elsewhere. At least where I am at now, I know what they are. Not much left for me to be hit with out of the proverbial left field. You know?

Anyway, please consider at least giving your WW the benefit of living what she THINKS she wants right now, without permentant changes happening. tqt, miracles happen. This is how people change. How people grow. How people become more than they ever realized was possible. You can not guess to know her limits. We as humans are amazing creatures, and just when you think you know someone . . . well, you might just have your socks knocked right off.

Peace to you.

Spidey

If I'm finding some kind of humor in this, does that mean I'm weird?

Homer, it feels like we've been bad kiddies all day long, and then Mom came home <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


(That was a compliment, Spidey. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Processing... processing... processing...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Processing... processing... processing... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, you were about to be in BIG trouble for the Mom comment! Luckily, you have a way with words and were able to soothe my feelings . . . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Keep processing!

Spidey

Spidey, are you there?

I'm trying to call her -- no answer at her place, or her cell phone.

That means she's with OB, and isn't answering... I think.

I'm pissed.

I can't even deliver a Plan B talk without OB getting in the way.

And why do you make me un-pissed? (that's a word, right?)

Oh, man...

I used to be able to get by just fine on 4 hours sleep. Not anymore... WW and OB owe me BIG-time for this year-long sleep deficit.

OB=Other [censored], lest we forget.

He's like a turd that won't flush.*

After trying to call WW a couple times, no answer on home or cell phone, she called me at 10:30. This morning I awoke greeted by images of my wife with OB last evening... my gut tells me what their R is all about, and it's NOT WW's true self... my gut tells me he's using her, using her, using her... I'm sick to my stomach at the thought of it... and I MUST get out of this disgusting mess to save my own sanity.

What a miserable, pathetic waste this all is.

To think that 24 years of my life has been blown out of the water and reduced to nothing but a sordid little get-your-rocks-off fling for some miserable @sshole...

I've never laid a hand on anyone in my entire life, but there's a piece of me that will not hesitate to pound the $hit out of this guy if I ever see him. It would be a noble gesture, I believe.... and he needs a bit more humility in his life.

Ok, sorry... I'm only half serious. Maybe.

Anyway... I didn't answer the phone when she called. (I didn't leave any message for her to call me, btw...)
But she left ME a message. She sounded pathetically nervous and guilty all at once, like a lying little teenage girl who came home too late on a Friday night.

"Hi, I'm calling you back, you called me , and I... didn't answer my phone, and I'm home, so give me a call...bye... I'm not sure what it is..maybe it's 'cuz Sue called - I got a msg from Sue about not coming in - and she called the house is that what it is - if it is you don't need to call me back cuz I got the message, so...ummm...ok...(fumble/mumble)... I'll be up for a while working on some stuff...so... call back..bye."

Yeah, well... "Sue" is her "assistant" of sorts at work. INTERESTING why she thought Sue would call THIS phone# -- is it possible that WW
S T I L L has not clued people in at work that she moved and therefore has a new home phone# ?!
In other words, could she STILL be avoiding telling people that she left her H?

I suppose I could call WW's friend at work (and my used-to-be-friend before all this happened) -- she's one person who does know The Real Story, only because I exposed it to her. She could tell me if the A is by now common knowledge at the office. Then again, I don't know if I care anymore... I don't think I want to know, at any rate.

Will wait to see if WW tries to call me again today -- guess I'm curious, if nothing else.

Regardless, I plan on calling her again this evening to deliver my "Plan B" list, along with a tactful little guilt trip, perhaps. Probably. Definitely.


*a heartfelt thanks to Dr. Wayne Dyer for this brilliant analogy

ps. my apologies for the foul language -- hope I don't offend anyone

You know, tqt, nothing can make a person more miserable than to be thrown off their game, by circumstances beyond their control. I experienced this myself, yesterday. I wanted to meet with my boss at my part-time job, and tell him that what HE told me the job was, isn't what the job has turned out to be, and I don't want to do it anymore.

So I got in there, all ready, and he wasn't there. Then he GOT there, and his appointment got there, too. Then he got done with his appointment, I got done with my tasks, and then he LEFT to take his truck to the mechanic. UGH! At that point, I sent him an email to set up an appointment today. So, today at noon, I meet with him to tell him. And I really hope something doesn't happen again to throw me off my game!

So, what is your plan now? Perhaps you could invite her out to a lunch, so you will know your chance is secure when she shows up. I know the whole thing might have messed with your head a little, but just refocus what you want to say.

You DO need to step off this ride soon, though, because you are not in a good place. I am reading a new book, about how your feelings create your reality. So, before you go to sleep tonight, I want you to close your eyes, and visualize yourself FEELING happy and joy. Don't think about HOW you will, what will have to happen to make that possible. Skip all the details, and focus on the FEELING.

Then, after you have told her the Plan B, you can access that feeling throughout the day, and lift your mind and heart. Soothe your soul. And you can begin to come back to yourself. Because you will be OK, you will be happy again. And also, try not to diminish or degrade your 24 years with her. They should be honored and respected, not tossed aside because your WW isn't thinking clearly. Those years were still wonderful. And there are more wonderful years ahead, no matter who you share your bed with. BECAUSE, the wonderfulness is INSIDE OF YOU.

Yep, it's all inside you. Everything you need, right inside. Having some beautiful babe to share tqt-wonderfulness is a bonus, but it is still there, nonetheless.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At that point, I sent him an email to set up an appointment today. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is he avoiding you? I've seen that happen lots of times. Conflict avoidance, in a sense.
Maybe you intimidate him with your enthusiasm and intelligence <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Good luck today, Spidey! Hope it works out the way you want it to.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, what is your plan now? Perhaps you could invite her out to a lunch</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My plan is to call her again this evening, mess with her head a little, and deliver Plan B. I think I'll skip the extra stress of meeting with her in person. Besides...she looked like hell the last time I saw her, so that's a good image to have in my head <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


She's going somewhere this weekend, but it's remotely possible that she's not going away with OM. Or, at the other extreme, she could be going away for a week with OM.

Should I care? Ideally, no. Do I care? Guess I do, or I wouldn't be making a big deal of it.
But here's the thing... just at Xmas time, WW told her SIL that she didn't feel good about the LAST weekend fling she took with OM.
So... all of a sudden she feels ok about going away again??

I'm wondering if I should play around with the whole thing when I talk to her -- if I don't tell her HOW I know (the phone call from the kennel), but make it obvious that I DO know... she and OM could spend their nice weekend trying to figure out what I know about WHAT, and how I know it. Fun little game... perhaps... introduce some paranoia into the equation...

But then again, I'm tired of the games. I can't wait for the day that I don't have to play any more games, and I'm not part of someone else's game, either.


I do plan on trying to find out WHO she is going with, and for how long. Depending on the answers, I just may bag Plan B, hang up the phone, and start on the divorce.

At any rate, the official plan is to get some information from her, then deliver Plan B.
Should I make it clear to her that this means I won't accept her phone calls AT ALL, unless it's a true emergency?

Since this may be the last time I talk to her for a long time (and the next time may be divorce-related), I REALLY have the urge to explain to her how badly she screwed everything up. Guess she knows that, though.

I also want to ask her why someone from her office would be calling her OLD home phone#, and not her NEW home phone#.
If the A is still a secret to some degree, and I convince myself that I still care enough, maybe there are more exposure opportunities I could take advantage of (?)

Thanks Spidey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Depending on the answers, I just may bag Plan B, hang up the phone, and start on the divorce. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nah, I don't think you should do that. Why? Because it would be something you could regret in the future. Remember, tqt, it is important that AFTER this whole thing is over, either way, and emotions calm down, that you feel as good about YOUR actions as possible. Try very hard NOT to let HER behavior dictate YOUR reactions. This is a VERY important part of the detachment process, and the part of the process that helps you make more level-headed, honest, authentic decisions (that reflect YOUR true character, not a reaction to HER behavior).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At any rate, the official plan is to get some information from her, then deliver Plan B. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I would NOT try and get any information from her, for all the reasons I listed above. You don't want to play someone else's game any more? Then don't! And don't worry about what that means, either. Does it mean you lose? Does it mean she/they have an "unfair" advantage over you? Does it mean . . . ??? Who cares?! You are NOT playing anymore! Simple as that. Plan B is NO CONTACT. Begin practicing it before you deliver it. You don't want to know what is going on, you are not interested in what is going on, and she should only contact you when she has made up her mind one way or the other and needs either 1)you to help her find her IC and move back home, or 2)to sign the D papers SHE has filed.

Honestly tqt, let her do ALL the work from now on. She can either [censored], or get off the pot. You, withdraw . . . protect . . . heal . . . recover yourself . . . put your oxygen mask on first, before you can help her (and you can only help her once she decides to help herself).

What say you to all that??? And I don't think the boss is avoiding me. I don't think he has a clue, actually. But I'll get it done, and let you know how it goes.

Spidey

But...but...but...Spidey... here's how my logical mind works:

I either want to save my M (sorta sounds ridiculous now), end my M, or I'm still not 100% sure.

If I'm not 100% certain, then my purpose for trying to get more information would be to help me decide. With everything she's done to destroy our M, and everything I've done to try to SAVE our M, what's wrong with trying to get whatever information I can from her before going pitch black? I'm not talking about anything more than

1) who she's going away with, and for how long 1a) perhaps try to get an idea of how comfortable she is with it
2) trying to determine, tactfully, if the A is still a secret at work

I feel like I need this information before starting N/C -- during which time I'll be consciously or subconsciously making decision(s) about my future, and whether or not I'd like her to be a part of it, if the opportunity arises.

Maybe I don't understand the reasons for avoiding this -- could you explain further, when you get a minute?

You know, if you MEN just had a SWITCH that I could flip, just to get what needs to be done done, for ONE DAY, I would be so happy! Logic logic logic. You have NO IDEA how often I do battle with LOGIC each day ~ my H is a programmer. *sigh*

Luckily, that means I have SOME experience in this LOGIC area. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

OK. Let's try and come at this from a different angle, since you are obviously going to have to take some convincing that I am RIGHT. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Only kidding.

It is my very humble opinion, that you are still trying to control a situation that you have no power to control. By the very nature that you are still here at MB, posting to me, indicates that you are still open to saving your M. You aren't sure HOW open you are, you're not sure WHY you are still leaning in that direction, but you are. Can we agree on that? Yes (I am answering for you, logic-man).

I understand that you might THINK that the information she has to give could change your mind one way or the other. However, the reason you don't understand WHY you want to save your M, is because those are your FEELINGS. They cannot be argued, or evidenced away (OR evidenced into existance). So your logic mind says information is needed, but your FEELINGS know that more information will probably just hurt you ~ IMO, feelings cannot be controlled with information. You might be hurt or angry, for a while, but your feelings for her will still be there.

*In an aside, BTW, this is why I still have hope for the recovery of your M, for all M's. Because her feelings for you have not gone away, she has just buried them under a lot of guilt/shame/justification/rationalization. They cannot stay buried for long, just as yours cannot. In fact, the more time she has with no need to heap all that crap on those feelings (Plan B), the faster those feelings rise to the surface. IMVHO*

And enters . . . Plan B! Your shield, your "fort (another BOY word)" to protect you. And protect your feelings. Honestly, the act of infidelity has happened, you have been chosen over. I know those words hurt, but even so, you still love her. Does one more week/weekend away REALLY matter that much? I think you have convinced yourself it does, but I don't think it will make your FEELINGS go away.

By thinking that her information can "make" you feel one way or the other, you are attempting to exert control over the situation. You have no control, though. You still love her, you still think you want to rebuild with her. It is now time for you to sit back (Plan B) and let her decide what SHE wants. One way or the other. You can only control you, your actions, your behaviors.

This is the hardest part about personal recovery, tqt, I promise you. But that old saying got around and has stuck around for a very good reason: "If you love something, set it free ~ if it comes back to you, it is your. If it doesn't, it never was."

It is my opinion that all of these things coming up for you seem and feel very real to you. But I think it is all stemming from your fear of letting her go, letting any control you feel you have over the situation go. As I understand it, this is very hard for Man from Mars. I had a hard time, as well, because I REALLY liked the feeling of being in control.

Letting go is one of my biggest lessons that I learned. I will never be hurt as badly as I was when H left me, because I will never hold on as tightly again ~ never try and control the outcome again. And I didn't get what I wanted until I finally let go. The other big lesson I learned was *patience.*

They kinda go together, huh?

Fear is very powerful, tqt, and it can take on many disguises. Fear is at the root of every negative emotion, IMO. And courage is not the absense of fear, it is moving forward IN SPITE of your fear. Am I making you feel less manly talking about the fear? I hope not. I know you are brave, and courageous. Right now, you letting go is the only way to save your M, to possibly help your WW.

Spidey

OR, to put it in a nutshell (and in bold):

There is no room for logic in a feelings-based relationship.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have NO IDEA how often I do battle with LOGIC each day ~ my H is a programmer. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uh-oh. I'm in the software business, too. Programming is part of my day.

Spidey, put your H on the line, would ya? so he and I can figure this thing out CORRECTLY. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. FEELINGS. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I used to be a musician for a lot of years, and did a couple of those years in a... don't tell anyone... lounge band. And I swear to god, everyone was always requesting that !@#^&* "FEELINGS" song, and we'd end up playing it FIVE TIMES every !%@#^ night.

So DON'T tell ME about FEELINGS! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By thinking that her information can "make" you feel one way or the other, you are attempting to exert control over the situation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now here's where your H and I disagree with you. I don't see the "control" thing here at all. Seriously.
Information makes the world go 'round. And in this case, the information I want to try to get will (let's say "MAY," not will) allow me to better determine the status of the A, perhaps where her "head is at" a little bit, and enable me to think more clearly about exactly WHAT it is I may or may not want to save.

Even if it WERE control (which your H and I will argue is NOT the case; and your H is a BRILLIANT man)... SO WHAT? I haven't had ANY control over ANY PART of my life for almost 12 months now. NOT TRUE -- I LIE -- I've always had control over ME, meaning I COULD'VE walked away 12, 10, 6, 3 or 2 months ago. But the reality of this is that the BS has LESS control over everything and anything than just about anyone else on the planet, correct?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OR, to put it in a nutshell (and in bold):
There is no room for logic in a feelings-based relationship.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A-HA!! GOT YA.

OK, maybe not. Scared ya for a second though, didn't I? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But there is a point to be made... SHE has FORCED things to a juncture where it is NOT just a feelings-based R anymore. She's MESSING AROUND not only with OM, but with MY LIFE!

Right?

I have some SERIOUS decisions to make about EVERYTHING (hey, this wasn't my idea...) which is what happens when you're faced with starting your life over again. I choose -- no, I HAVE to -- introduce some logic into that decision-making process. Whatever tiny little piece of logic is available, I need to grab onto to it as hard as I can!


... you still there? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am still here. And you grab away at the logic you "see." It is my opinion, that you will be grabbing at nothing more than smoke ~ whispy, tantalizingly real, ghosts of what you are seeking.

I have said my peace about what I see from looking from the outside in (can't see the forest from the trees theory); my peace about living this nightmare myself. But you still do what you feel compelled to do. And it seems you feel compelled to seek out more information because you think it will decide your course of action.

It is my opinion, that the ONLY thing that has steered your course during this whole process is FEELINGS. Exactly the same thing that has steered her course. The information will not change your feelings, I don't think, because none of the other hurtful information you have received about her A has changed your feelings.

Until one of you steps out of this constant reactions to feelings, you will continue the "dance" until the M is destroyed. And maybe that is your path. I don't know.

I do know that no matter what you choose to do, I am here for you. I will support you. We all do the best we can in the situations we are in at the time. That is what you are doing, and you should always feel proud about the road you have taken in all of this. You are a good man, tqt.

AND, one GREAT benefit of 8 months of MC, is that when H starts arguing my feelings, or giving me evidence to change my feelings, I can look at him and say: "These are my feelings. I have no good reason for having them, I have no evidence to support them, it is just how I FEEL."

And he realizes that I just need a hug, I just need acceptance and acknowledgement that my feelings are valid.

So, {{{{{tqt}}}}} there is your hug. I accpet what you are feeling, and I acknowledge that you feel you need to do this, for YOU. [No matter how much evidence I have to the contrary. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ]

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> because none of the other hurtful information you have received about her A has changed your feelings.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure it has! Undeniably so.
Did it make me stop loving her? No.
Did it make me start loving her less? I think so. Over time, yes. Her choice of actions, words, behavior over time led to a change in my feelings. Isn't that how it all works?

And, the information I've received about her A has also changed other feelings. Feelings of respect, admiration, etc..... isn't that a normal piece of the fallout from an affair?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Until one of you steps out of this constant reactions to feelings, you will continue the "dance" until the M is destroyed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really don't feel like I'm dancing, Spidey. But maybe I'm too close to it to see that.

ps. we may have to edit out this portion of the book -- maybe save it for the movie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I meant change your feelings about whether or not you want to save the M. Because as I stated in my first post of the day, or second (what day is it???), those are the feelings you are thinking might change?

And I think that what changes the feelings for the BS, honestly, is time. Just time without them in your life, slowly weaning yourself away from all of that. Just like recovery in a M isn't so much what the FWS does or says, but just time to help the memories fade a bit. And building new memories on top.

Even though my H hurt me, and said he had never loved me, and slept with a person I considered to be a very close friend of mine ~ I didn't stop loving him. I wanted to. I wanted to not love him anymore, not want him back, I even wanted to do some of those things just to HURT him back (now you see my maturity level). But I realized, for MYself, that my feelings toward my H are not dependent on how he feels about me.

If he doesn't love me, I will be hurt, I will move on, and will gradually not feel so strongly for him. BUT, just because his feelings change, doesn't mean mine will.

This is just ME, though. Everyone is different. And I think we should keep this part in the book. Conflict should not be avoided, it should be embraced and celebrated. Yay! We are not the same, we have differences of opinion, and we are learning to share them with each other and not hurt each other, or trample the other down to MAKE ourselves be heard.

Pep taught me the value of that (oh, and did I mention the 8 months of MC?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ).

Peace to you, my friend. I'll check in with you later. I have a meeting to go to . . . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey

I gotta tell ya, the more I think about this, the more I want to try to get something out of her before reciting my Plan B list.

Here's why...

She's been gone since 10/4/04. And before that, she waffled for at least six more months.

I can only ASSume that she's had enough time to think about which side of the fence she's going to land on. By her actions, it's obvious to which side she's leaning. The few words she actually speaks, taken at face value, ALSO point her in that direction.

If she's still confused as hell and deep in some fog, well... my gut tells me she'll be there for a loooooong time.

I don't want to control her. I don't want to push her or pull her or shove her or tip her over. She's gone. She left. She's free. I didn't stop her. I helped her move.

I need -- for myself -- to try to get some answers from her as to what her intentions are. Yes, she owes me that.
I need to ask for information precisely BECAUSE I have no control over her.

She's a 42-year-old woman. She needs to grow up. Fog or no fog, addiction or no addiction.

$hit or get off the pot.

If by now she hasn't figured out that she's not the center of the universe, and that there's someone else's life being ripped apart and put on hold because of her refusal to say anything -- then maybe she's not the person I should spend the rest of my life with. Maybe the fact that I love her becomes less and less important.

Maybe I should be "spending" my love on someone who wants it (and has the capacity to return it), rather than on someone who shuns it now, and apparently never did accept it as valuable and real.

My asking for information from her before going dark (perhaps permanently) will NOT be the thing that puts the final nail in this thing.

------------

A short story... I think of this often, which helps me keep things in perspective. It's a bit off-topic, but it'll help me to write it down.

The only dream my wife ever talked about was to someday have a horse farm. One of my dreams is (was?) to own several or so acres of undeveloped waterfront property, both as an investment, and to eventually build a vacation/retirement home.
About a year or so ago, I sat my wife down and showed her how we could afford to start working towards her horse farm, if she still wanted it. I knew if we were to do that, we'd have to put just about every other major investment on hold, maybe forever(?)
But I was excited about it... I was excited for her.. because she always talked about it!

Well, she wasn't interested in her dream anymore. She didn't give any reason -- she just didn't care about it anymore. I could never figure it out. I tried.

Coincidentally, a few months later, I became aware of several pieces of undeveloped waterfront property for sale. I did all the research, and suggested to my wife that we go check them out. We did, and they were beautiful. I did more research, and before long was 110% positive that it would be a VERY good investment. Not only could I realize my dream, but we'd make a lot of money in the process.
She said no. I reminded her that it was a dream of mine since I was a kid, and even if we changed our minds, we'd make a lot of money on it. She said no. She said she wasn't a risk-taker. (I ALWAYS insisted this kind of decision would be... well, POJA...as it should be.)
(Today that property is worth approx $200k more than it was when we COULD have purchased it. But no, this isn't a story about money.)

She lost her dream, and I lost mine.
Why? Because, as it turns out, she was involved in an affair.

<small>[ January 13, 2005, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: tqt ]</small>

tqt, I understand your need for info. You need it before you can make a rational decision about your own life. Everyone says slow down and not rush into anything. When you are like me and you want the pain to be OVER!!!!! But you want to know the who, why's and whats before you move in any direction. And yes, my WH thinks it is a controlling manuever and all the books say it is controlling. Damn straight it is taking control of your own happiness. Thw WS wasn't thinking about our happiness when they chose to leave, so I feel getting answers is my right and the least that my WH can do for me.

Here is the crux...if they don't care or love us why the hell not give us the info? I pushed my WH last night to give me something. He always seems so miserable and sad when he is around me and the kids. I HATE IT!!! Makes me feel real good being around him..right. I told him, if you are so unhappy then tell me there is nothing left becuase I am ready to move on. I told him I was not a mind ready and I couldn't even read his facial expressions any more. All he has is this bland, blank look of depression. (He stopped his meds by the way).

Your WW is not going to give you any info without going off her rocker. The yelling and crying will start again no doubt and when you hang up from that conversation you will be ready for the D. Trust me. So if you are prepared and ready to move in that direction then make the call and demand some answers. And don't doubt that she has not told anyone at work. My WH has not and I just 1/2 hour ago finally told his boss/partner who is a woman, that we were separated becuase I work for her/him and haven't been coming in lately. She deserves to know, but she knows that he doesn;t tell her anything even in the realms of the job. She kind of laughed and said my WH is just like her XH. She said "Thank God I don't have to sleep with him!!" She made a point that hit home. If you push, pull whatever you are going to open Pandora's box...just be prepared because you might not like it at all.

Good luck and keep us posted.

tqt, do you know that the reason I was trying to disuade you from asking questions is because I think it will hurt you, and not help you much? I hope you know it is because I care, not because I am trying to be "right," or bossy or anything.

I also want to apologize for DJing you earlier in my zeal to change your mind. I am apologizing not for you, but for me ~ my energy was not flowing in a positive, helpful way. It has stayed with me these past few hours, and I had to acknowledge it to you so I can move forward.

BTW, I told my boss that I am not the woman for his job, and he took it very well. He thanked me for being honest with him, and told me that I did what he requested from the beginning ~ that if I wasn't happy, to let him know. So, I feel MUCH better about that. In fact, I wouldn't doubt that my anxiety about that earlier, skewed my posts to you. Very sorry about that, as I know you are in confusing and hurtful place anyway, then have someone messing with your head is NO fun.

tqt, that is so sad about your dreams, both yours and hers. It is all such a waste. And I understand what you are saying. My H did some things that I find it hard to believe at this time, things that were aweful and horrible (I have already shared a lot of these with you).

However, he also did some things that in his confusion and addiction and fog, were kind-of showing me respect. For one, he didn't lie and hide for a LONG time. The PA lasted 2 weeks before he confessed to me. And he did confess, I didn't find out from FBF/OW, or find undeniable hard evidence first. However, I was closing in on him, and he was probably feeling urgency to escape me finding him out.

He wasn't sure about his feelings, so he moved out. During our separation, he had no SF with OW. Of course, he says now he did that out of respect for what was left of our M ~ I think it was more lack of opportunity, as she dumped him when he told me. But the fact remains, he had no SF with her when he moved out to "figure out his feelings." He did contact her a lot, which kept his fog going for a couple extra months, but . . .

I am grateful because I see many people here whose WS's have SF with them, and the OP, they send mixed signals, get hopes up and dash them again, and by the time they have figured out their feelings, the BS is a nut case. I am grateful H removed himself from me, until he was sure he wanted to be with me. I think that saved me some SF-trauma during recovery.

My H got on medication (even though he didn't think he needed it), and he saw an IC (actually, a couple, before he found the one that worked for him - shocked the CRAP out of me, never thought he'd seek professional help EVER), and agreed to MC after 6 weeks of separation (although the first MC didn't work out, and he was only going at that point to "make the D go more smoothly").

So, he didn't lose ALL of my respect. I think in the only way he could, he tried to do what was best for everyone. Because by the time he had gotten himself in so deep, he didn't understand how to get out.

I encourage you to ask as many questions as you need, tqt. You do what makes sense to you. This is your life. And like Homer says, prepare yourself (although it is my experience with myself that I am NEVER prepared, even though I think I am!) to hear stuff you don't want to hear.

And keep us posted! We are here for you, K? No judgement here (anymore), just love and support.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So if you are prepared and ready to move in that direction then make the call and demand some answers.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Homer, I must've said something I didn't mean to say.
I'm not going to demand anything. As of right now, my plan is to simply ask a few questions -- calmly, respectfully, non-judgementally, non-threateningly. And not in a needy way either.

If anything sets her off, it'll be my Plan B/Conditions-to-Return-Home list, but I think we all agree it needs to be done, regardless.... don't we?

Spidey, something you said earlier is bugging me.... you said let her do all the work including file for D if that's what she wants. Way back whenever... I decided FOR SURE that if she wanted a D, SHE was going to have to file. I think I told her that, too. So, I agree with what you're saying.

Here's the BUT...

She could do this (this = nothing) FOREVER.

If not forever, it could go on for another year, anyway, if I let it. And I can't let it. There will be nothing left to save...so why would I want to let it go on and on... ?

I also seem to be forgetting something here. There's a decent chance that SHE knows DAMN WELL she is NEVER coming back. I believe that it's worth the risk of nudging her for info, if for no other reason than to maybe -- just maybe -- find that out now, rather than later.

And by the way... I still don't clearly understand what the actual risk (of short and sweet info-gathering) is. I don't understand the potential harm/damage that it can do at this stage of the game. I'm sorry if I have a mental block on this...

Thanks again to one and all for your help and support. You guys are awesome. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ps. I'm getting nervous....