I am in a better place today. I've noticed that as time goes by, when I DO abort Plan B or otherwise screw up, my recovery time gets shorter and shorter.

My head did start playing games again this morning, but I'm keeping things in check. I'm able to convince myself quite easily that:

a) WW is starting to figure some things out

b) She's found herself in a deep, miserable hole, sans the wherewithal -- the resources -- to get herself out of it

c) OM's pressure on her is huge, in the overall scheme of things. And WW's weaknesses are no match for it.

ENOUGH about WW. She's taking up way too much space in this thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just got done with my first class on becoming a better support on these boards</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spidey... what you meant to say was: you are TEACHING the class, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It sounds intruiging and exciting!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> what you meant to say was: you are TEACHING the class, right? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah right! Thanks for the compliment/ego stroking. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm off to the dentist, so if I have a good post in me today, I will have to write it later.

I think you are making great progress, tqt. These things take time, but your brain will eventually sort it all out ~ then it will let your heart know what the plan is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Spidey

tqt, As I was reading through your posts I was saying "no, no TQT this is good. She is doubting herself" And lo and behold your last post echoed just that. I think her response of "no time" means "no time" to face the reality because it SUCKS!!! She is pausing, I can feel it. It is sinking in and she is coming out of the fog.

My WH has been throwing little things back into my face every time we talk. It is all about him... except for who had a hand in our marital difficulties. And boy CONTROL issues are all my fault. So he is refusing to do anything I ask because I am trying to Control him. I told him that his emotional withdrawal could be construed that way "Did I already post that somewhere?"

Anyhow he keeps bringing little petty things up from long ago too! I can't believe he actually remembers some of that stuff!!! We talked briefly about D and didn't make any concrete plans. Now he wants to seperate the finances. We got into it about that this past weekend. He was angry that I spent some money on household things when we didn't have that much in the checking account. I said OK I'll take it back. Then over the next three days he spent $60 on golf and bar hopping. Boy was I angry. When I brought it up his reponse was "Yeah, well where are we going to get the money to pay for your facial", mind you I go every 8 weeks. Then when he started talking about losing a share of his company to me he actually got choked up!!! He hasn't cried this entire time, but when faced with losing $$$, Oh my GOD!!! That hurt!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm off to the dentist, so if I have a good post in me today, I will have to write it later.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, well, well... whaddyaknow...I just got BACK from the dentist. The best part was when the hygienist girl said

"So tqt!! All ready for Valentine's Day?!?"
"Big special date planned?!?!"
"Blah blah blah blah blah.............?!?!?"

Excuse me Miss, but shouldn't you be FLOSSING someone or something??

-------

Spidey... take the day off, would ya? You've earned it!

Oh YEAH?! </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The best part was when the hygienist girl said </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My best part was when she told me I might need a root canal!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Please understand that I do not do well with, er, dental proceedures. My dentist has assured me that since I have taken such good care of my teeth all these years, that I wouldn't NEED a root canal. I think he even PROMISED me!

And it wouldn't be for a cavity. It would be for an ACCIDENT! Wouldn't that be ironic? TOO ironic, it cannot happen, I will not allow it.

A few months ago, H and I and the kids were eating at a (former) favorite pizza joint. I bit into my very first piece, and felt instant pain in my front tooth. There was a small ROCK in my pizza! And it "traumatized" my root. Good grief!!! As of now, the x-ray looked good, but the doc said that tooth trauma can show up YEARS after the injury! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Other than that, everything else went well. My hygeinist really "got" my humor, and we were cracking up. The receptionist kept craning her head around to try and see what we were doing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The class I took the other night was from the SYMC site, and some of their terms don't translate over here exactly. So, hang with me.

The first interesting thing I learned the other night is that the "Intervention" phase (here at MB it is a combination of exposure, stopping LB's, and Plan A) usually goes on too long. I asked how long it should go on, and was told about 6 weeks. 6 WEEKS!!! After that time, the efforts are usually the equivalent to p!$$ing in the wind (not Penny's term, just my own interpretation), and love begins to be lost by the BS.

My opinion, tqt, is that you have one final thing to do in this phase ~ expose to her workplace, and anyone else you know she is hiding it from. Let me cut and paste some parts of this that I think explain what I mean.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The longer you allow the affair to exist unchecked, the more it takes root. Much like the weeds in my garden -- if they’re not ferreted out as soon as possible, they become next to impossible to budge. And, like the weeds in my garden, an affair becomes part of the accepted landscape. If you do not expose the affair and it comes to light slowly you lose the advantage of the disapproval factor. Friends and family may be shocked to see your mate with someone else at first but if they are like most people, they will reluctantly buy into the lie of the fairy tale love if that is the story they hear. Be proactive! Expose. Don’t allow our natural apathy to blanket the affair from conflict.

Saving your marriage is not about being nice – being nice is easy. Saving your marriage is about standing firm against the onslaught of addiction which threatens to suck you in chew you up and spit you out. Even and especially when to do so takes you far outside your own comfort zone. Staying in your comfort zone helped you get to this place: if you want out you’ll need to stretch those boundaries. Painful? Yes, very. But what’s the alternative?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then, you go into the Protection Phase, sort-of like Plan B. The rest is long, but I am going to paste it all in here, because it is all pertinent.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The Protection Phase is so called because it has multiple layers of protection all aimed at on thing, protecting the marriage. First we need to protect the betrayed partner from the continued pain of dealing with the affair. Beyond that, because the saving the marriage is our goal, we need to protect the straying partner from the inevitable backlash of anger and disrespect his or her mate will show as the affair wears on. We might all agree that the wayward spouse is in the wrong but if the goal is to save the marriage and not exact vengeance then we need to put aside our emotional reactions and keep that at the forefront of our minds. In Protection Phase we protect the marriage by separating and buffering the spouses thus preventing them from wreaking more damage by their continued attacks on each other.

Many times, in spite of best efforts and lots of support from family, friends and professionals, the best planned and executed Intervention Phase fails to halt the affair. It probably causes plenty of conflict and confusion for the affair partners, but the addiction is often so strong that they won’t break it off even when they are obviously hurting and unhappy. This is when we need to look at moving from Intervention, where you are actively faced with the affair, to Protection. And like much of the Intervention Phase, this too is counterintuitive. Next to exposure, this is the thing I have the hardest time convincing betrayed husbands and wives to do, and again one of the most crucial.

When an affair is discovered, there is usually a rush of energy and determination to do whatever it takes to ride it out and mend the marriage once it ends. But as the weeks turn to months, that energy is rapidly depleted by the sheer terror and pain of seeing your spouse in love with someone else. Your determination rapidly begins to wane and you become the greater threat to the marriage. As your emotions are bombarded day after day with the cruelty and thoughtlessness inherent in an addiction you begin to lose your love for your spouse. Worse, you find that you have moments of pure hatred when you see how he or she puts the lover ahead of the well being of yourself and is willing to throw away your financial security for this interloper. The day will come, all too soon, when you decide that you’re done and that even if your spouse came to you begging for reconciliation you have lost all respect for him or her and would not consider the possibility. In the interest of your marriage, and yes, yourself, you need to be protected from getting to this place.

Unlike the Intervention Phase, it’s pretty straightforward, but people fight it kicking and screaming. Protection Phase is just this: Separate entirely from your spouse. Have no contact between the two of you. None.

When you initiate this separation you need to make an explicit statement about your commitment to the marriage and hope for reconciliation. You also need to spell out that you are not willing to continue in a relationship under these conditions but would be happy to discuss the future as soon as the affair is over.

When do you do this? As soon as you first start to feel overwhelmed with the pain of the affair. This is no time for heroics. Living too long with the pain will set into motion the conditions which will make you the threat to the marriage. For women this can be as soon as one week. Certainly not longer than 12 weeks. For men up to 6 months.

If your spouse has left the home and is living with the affair partner or on his/her own it’s most likely time. Get professional guidance from someone who specializes in infidelity management.

The Protection Phase is the time to focus on you and on getting a life. You get to do everything except date and file for divorce. Go out with your friends (same sex, advocates of your marriage), join a club, take up a new hobby…. This is the time to detach from the pain of the affair. The time to put the marriage on the back burner and to take care of yourself and your children.

The affair will most likely end, just like 90 to 95% of all affairs do. If you did the right things in the Intervention Phase, it will end sooner. When that happens, you need to be strong and healthy if you are going to be able to work through the Reconciliation and Recovery Phases.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whew! Good thing I had that electronically!

I really think your WW will respond to you NOT being in her life at all, tqt. I really think she will respond to "seeing" you doing all kinds of fun and interesting stuff without her. Because even in PP, or Plan B, the WS notices these things ~ often under the guise of a "necessity (ie, getting tax forms from the house ~ "No, not those, I need to come in and get the other ones I need" as my H said to me last March regarding the forms he ASKED me to have ready and waiting for him. I think it was a ploy to get in the house and see what we were doing, which was eating waffles and bacon and watching cartoons and having a grand time without him, thank-you-very-much!)."

Since you are not a girl, perhaps you won't understand this analogy ~ perhaps you will, Homer.

On the playground when we were in grade school, and a group of girls decides to eject one from the group. They are mean, cruel, and try and make the other girl cry. The girls that DIDN'T just follow the group around, clinging, wanting back in the group, are the ones that got back in the soonest. The ones that found someone else to hang out with, looked like they were having all sorts of fun on their own, that IGNORED the other girls, actually ended up being COURTED by the group again to rejoin them.

I believe this is the same mentality that goes on in WS/BS dynamics. When you SEEM interested, they ignore. When you turn it around, and actually begin to find JOY in your life, they become attracted to that.

ARK has some of the best posts about this. And I believe she knows what she is talking about. She says that while in an A, an addiction, the soul sufferes, and that the soul cannot stay in that state indefinately. That sooner or later, it will again seek out sources of JOY. Become the joy, become the attraction.

Spidey

Help! Gimme gimme gimme some kind o' drug quick, 'cuz I can't shut my brain off and my head's gonna explode!

----

I'm going to STOP fighting my feelings. I'm going to let my heart AND my head feel whatever they want to.
How I REACT to it, however, will be a different story.

Hello, my name is tqt, and I love my wife, and I want her back.


I don't have too much to say in the matter, but I'm not giving up on her until:

a) I have to.

or

b) I want to. In other words, my heart changes.

And if and when it changes, that will be ok. I will not feel as if I've lost the battle, because I'll know I did my best, and my heart will no longer care anyway! Until it DOES change, I will not fight it -- I will not let my own negative self-talk get in the way. And I will not let others tell me what is right for me.

I will ALLOW myself to love my wife with every fiber of my being and rise above my foolish pride, my shallow insecurities, and my damaged and fragile ego. Others may question my judgement. Give her up! Let her go! You deserve better! Move on with your life! And it occurs to me that the very things they are really questioning are... what a coincidence... both the greatest things I have to offer and the things my wife needs most: forgiveness, compassion, patience, humility... perseverance, fortitude... and unconditional love.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Become the joy, become the attraction.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You mean sorta like Disney World? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
...but without the Damn Rollercoaster, I hope?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really think your WW will respond to you NOT being in her life at all</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We shall see!
And that leads me to this thought...

I know I'm on Plan B Double-Secret Probation.
And I know why, and I know I deserve it.

But I'm worried about how I "left things" with her the last couple conversations. I think there were too many LB's, too many DJ's... maybe too needy... maybe too overbearing... and not enough Plan A-ish. Asking her "if you want a D, why haven't you done anything?" isn't going to end up in the MB Hall of Fame. She's pretty mixed up... she may even think I'm ok with D at this point(?)

I'm chomping at the bit trying to figure out how to "un-do" that!!!

As we go into @%#^&^ Valentine's Day... then the Infamous WW/OM's Company Function (anniversary of/site of PA) next Tues-Thurs... the Florida trip sometime in March (TO which I believe OM IS going, which literally breaks my heart into a million pieces)...

There must be SOME WAY to leave things on a better note with her, before I attempt to exonerate myself Plan B-wise... secure the pardon of my MB Plan B Probation Officer...and implement a REAL, and IMPRESSIVE PLAN B?

What do you think?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My opinion, tqt, is that you have one final thing to do in this phase ~ expose to her workplace, and anyone else you know she is hiding it from. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This phase? Per above, I feel phase-less...
Exposure... or, more exposure... wow... I KNOW my knee-jerk reaction is generally wrong... but with things being (seemingly!) SO CLOSE to the edge... oh man...
There's only a couple or so more people that I can think of -- and they may already know... beyond that I get into plastering fliers on random windshields and spraypainting the office building walls...

Ok, I've thought of 3 people -- like I said... good chance they already know.

I was just thinking this morning how, when she tells me not everyone knows (they may, but she's fooling herself) and she's not proud of it, etc.. couldn't it be that she's been keeping her options open, ie. to come back, and THAT's why she wants to keep it a "secret?"
Whatever...

More thought needed on that....


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I bit into my very first piece, and felt instant pain in my front tooth. There was a small ROCK in my pizza! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sheesh! This gourmet pizza craze is getting out of hand, isn't it?!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sheesh! This gourmet pizza craze is getting out of hand, isn't it?! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES, it is!!! WTH, I didn't even ORDER rocks in my pizza.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> a) I have to.
OR
b) I want to. In other words, my heart changes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You go, boy! I support you in this 100%. The greatest reward often comes from the greatest risk, right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But I'm worried about how I "left things" with her the last couple conversations. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, what I have to say about this is NOT about Plan B probation (although, I have my eye on you!). It has to do with the fact that you cannot really UNDO words. Once they are out there, they are out there. IMO, the GREATEST thing you can do, is prepare how you are going to react the NEXT time she contacts YOU. Because it is my strong opinion that she will, for one reason or another. When she does contact you again, make it a point to have no R talk with her, nothing personal. Just business. Kind, considerate, nice, HAPPY.

Let her talk. If she doesn't want to, tell you you should go. If she emails you, email her back. I believe you will open a whole can of worms, in many different ways, if you contact her again.

Simply make a pledge to yourself that you will no longer LB or DJ her. Just don't do it. She doesn't have to be told of your commitment to that ~ she will NOTICE it. Today? Tomorrow? Probably not. BUT, you are not running a sprint here, tqt. You are running a marathon. Time is on your side, believe it or not.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ok, I've thought of 3 people -- like I said... good chance they already know. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what the material from my class says on this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Expose the affair. This is one of the hardest things for me to convince people to do. And it is the one of the most essential moves you can make – if not the most essential. If you ignore this you are enabling the affair by making it safe and easy. Affairs are addictions that flourish in the dark and hidden places. They are fantasies built on deceit – of both the exterior world and the inner consciousness of the participants. Often times it is only with exposure that affairs end.

Tell – Your family, your straying spouse’s family, your friends, his/her friends, your church family, the affair partner’s family, friends, and colleagues. Now, this is not an opportunity to bash your wayward mate or the affair partner. This is a plea for help. Here’s what you say, “ My spouse is having an affair with <use the name>. I love him/her. I want to save our marriage and keep our family together. Please encourage him or her to do the right thing, end this relationship and all contact with <affair partner> and recommit to our marriage.

Often people tell me they just can’t take this step because it is “mean.” They forget to look past the immediate present and the instincts driving them to the larger picture. The Intervention Phase is not about making the straying mate feel good, it’s about Intervening in an affair in order to protect the marital union. To do that, the unfaithful partner is going to feel bad about the steps you need to take. It only makes sense – they are doing something that grievously endangers the marriage and you are trying to stop that process. If your spouse is having an affair they are caught in the web of addiction. It is up to you to step out of your comfort zone and take steps to protect the marriage from that sickness. This is not being “mean” it is honoring your commitment to your marriage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The article also goes on to say to EXPECT extreme anger and threats when the WS finds out you have exposed.

I know it is not a sure thing they DON'T know. I would say Sue definately doesn't know, since she has called your home looking for WW (is her name Sue, or did I make that up? I can't remember). And that is who I would start with.

I do know that ANY secrecy is too much. My H threatened and threw fit after fit that I was going to expose him and OW at Scouts. He kept saying, "I can't believe you would do that to the kids just to get back at me and her."

It had nothing to do with "getting back at them." In fact, I struggled with that decision for a long time, because I believe that as long as they had a "safe place," it impeded the recovery of my M. My telling wouldn't have been to get back at either of them, it would be to end the threat to my M. Once the OW stopped going, I let it go. The Scoutmaster and my H's co-leader know (they are husband and wife), and that is it. They have been EXTREMELY supportive of us, of making sure we know we are welcome there, and of our M recovery. They have no judgement for either H or myself.

I would expose, then drop back into Plan B and wait for her to contact you. And prepare yourself as best you can for that.

OT, I think I am getting my new desk tonight! Yay! If it fits in the van, my H and his friend are going to pick it up. I think I will order everyone pizza. How exciting! Then, the computer room will be totally done. Apparently, we are waiting for part(s) of the entertainment center to come in.

I am glad where you are at right now. I sensed so much conflict within yourself. I am glad you are having some clarity. It will come and go. But we are here for you, and we'll help you when you get all fogged in.

Spidey

Quick question re: exposure and babble.

Can't remember for sure whether or not I posted this before...

SIL told me that at Xmas time, WW told her that WW and the whole Famn Damily was really ticked off at me for exposing to WW/OM's boss. No big deal there...but...

WW ALSO told SIL that she "was thinking about going back (to home/tqt) until he did that."

Sooo...what are the odds....was that complete and utter babblety-bullsh!t, or something to take into consideration before a next-level exposure??

And more exposure without any kind of communication with her... ouch... WW is VERY mistrustful and paranoid of everything/everybody... she is quite likely going to think the exposure is nothing but vindictive and spiteful. She has a lousy memory, too, so she won't connect NEXT exposure to PREVIOUS exposure.
And the answer is... it don't matter! right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> WW ALSO told SIL that she "was thinking about going back (to home/tqt) until he did that." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is CLASSIC. I have heard that soooo many times. Basically, I would be surprised if a WS DIDN'T say that. From my class:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Expect extreme anger. I call it the “mushroom cloud reaction.” This is about addiction at work. It’s important to remember that when your spouse is accusing you of being insane, paranoid, controlling, destructive, etc. that they are engaging in an intimidation attempt to get you to back off. The steps of confronting and exposing pose a threat to the continued life of the addiction. Almost any addict will react with extreme defensiveness, anger, and blame. You need to remain strong (and calm!) in the face of this anger. Unlike the deep and real anger that occurs with truly wrongful acts, the anger that you see when an addiction is threatened burns out pretty quickly.

Expect threats. These range from I’m leaving and never coming back, to I’m going to take the children, kick you out of the house and leave you in ruin. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The material also talks about contronting the affair partner (OM). Have you done this? This is what Penny says:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Confront the affair partner. I suggest you put this in an email or a letter so that you have proof of what is said and so that there is no risk that you lose your temper. This is what you say – nothing more – avoid all judgments or threats. “I know that you are involved with my spouse. I love him/her very much and want to save my marriage and keep my family together. Your relationship with him/her is not okay. It is coming between us and is making it impossible for us to heal our marriage. Please respect our marriage and end all contact with him/her forever.”

Probably the affair partner will laugh in your face, deny anything is going on, or threaten you with a lawsuit. More on that below. The goal is not to get them to end the affair – although it would be wonderful if he or she did – the goal is to rock the affair boat, let them both know that you know, and create conflict within their relationship. If they now spend their time together talking about how evil and horrible you are, that’s great! I don’t care what the unpleasant topic of conversation is about as long as it’s unpleasant. Much better than romantic dinners and trysts. Let their ugly sides come out to play.

Expect denial and lies. They are universal. I don’t think I’ve ever encountered someone whose spouse admitted to an affair the first time it was mentioned.

Most of the time, the anger burns off quickly and the threats are never carried out. If your spouse does file for divorce, don’t panic! It’s not the end of the world, or the marriage, You have plenty of time to respond. Be sure to get good advice on what to ask before hiring an attorney and on marriage saving strategies should you become embroiled in that process. (Your attorney is not trained in keeping marriages together, rely on him or her for legal advice not for marriage friendly advice.) It is optimal if you can get your Coach and your attorney to work together on strategy.

A fairly common threat that seems to be gaining in popularity is the threat that you will be sued for harassment because you contacted the affair partner. A couple of thoughts on that. First – your spouse cannot file a restraining order preventing you from contacting someone else. The person in question needs to petition for such an order and they need to show cause.

Second – a letter politely asking someone to remove themselves from your marriage is not harassment. (That’s why you put it in writing) Look at it this way– If your neighbor’s dog was coming over and ripping up your flower beds, and you sent a polite letter that said, “Your dog has been here tearing apart my flower beds every day for the last week. I really like these flowers, I spend a lot of time working in the beds. Please do what is necessary to keep Rex home,” no one in their right mind would call that harassment. This threat is nothing more than an intimidation attempt to force you to stop threatening the addiction. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Things your spouse will say as part of the addiction and which you need to disregard:

*It’s over. There is no hope of saving the marriage.
*I never loved you. I only married you because…..
*It’s not about <affair partner> it’s about wanting out.
*Even if he or she was not part of the picture there would be no hope.
*You made me do this, it’s your fault.
*Nothing you can do can change my mind.
*I could never feel anything for you again.
*She/he is my soulmate.

Other myths – these are dangerous to believe:

*The children will be fine, they get over these things.
*I’ll give you everything if you agree to a quick divorce
*I’ll take everything and you’ll be destitute if you don’t give me a quick divorce
*The affair is over and we’re just friends.
*The affair is over and we can still work together </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AND, my FWH told me that SOOO many times. And I bought into it for the first two months of our separation. After I exposed, he told me that he was going to come back and see if he can possibly make it work, but after I told, he realized I was just vindictive and mean and would never change and therefore, it would never work.

Been there, done that, and I have several t-shirts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The material also talks about contronting the affair partner (OM). Have you done this?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep. Sent an email, more or less the same content that you posted, and copied his/WW's boss. No response or anything, but shortly thereafter -- forgot the circumstances; this was sometime before Thanksgiving, I think -- I called OM's place looking for WW, he acted like a Complete and Total Dweeb, pretended he wasn't OM, then hung up on me. So, IOW, my "confrontation" with OM didn't do any good, other than probably deplete his toilet paper supply.

When Penny changes her OP Confrontation Rules to include something a bit more...uh... assertive... let me know, would ya? I have a lot of energy to expel on a well-deserving target.

OT, I am sitting here at my NEW computer desk that H and his friend set up for me last night. YAY! And my animal spirit guide, the turtle, is all lit up ~ a little turtle lamp that H got me for Christmas that now finally has a home. I am so happy!

This morning, we are going to the wedding of a couple who have been D'd for almost 9 years. She had an A, he REacted, like we all have thought of doing at one point or another, and he D'd her. She had too much pride to ask to come back, or admit she was wrong. They were D'd 3 years, and began kinda "dating" again. Then he got a job here in Idaho, and they moved here together ~ not sure they would make it. In fact, HIS old girlfriend moved here, too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Now, 5 1/2 years after moving here, they are getting remarried. Please remember that D doesn't mean THE END, necessarily. That is what I realized near the end of our separation, when I was fairly certain H was going to file. I just remembered that a D to me would just be a piece of paper, and for as long as I could, I would remember that my H was my H, and that I would always be M'd to him in my heart.

And this couple was a terrific source of encouragement to me. Because they believed that if they hadn't kept REacting to each other, they could have saved themselves 3 years of he!!. The H said if he would have researched and learned and really thought about what HE wanted (instead of listening to all his friends and family, who told him to D her), that they might not have D'd.

ANYway, good job on confronting the OM. I bet you caused some waves there. Did your WW ever tell YOU how she felt about that, or just your SIL? I think you must have done something right to be the recipient of such clear fog-babble (well, I was GOING to go back, until he did THAT). Once I understood fog-babble and where it comes from, I realized that when I got that type of reaction, I had made ONE of them VERY uncomfortable (mostly OW, as she is whimpy ~ can dish it out, but can't take it, kind of person).

This morning my 7th grader goes in for his ACT. Last month he took the SAT. He scores so high on the state tests, he became eligable for the Rocky Mountain Talent Search. If he scores high enough, he gets to go to the University of Denver this summer! He's only 13! It is funny when we drop him off for these tests, he is so little next to all the high school seniors.

Anyway, I hope you have a great Saturday. Let me know if you enjoy those rock climbing classes (isn't that what you signed up for?). Sounds like great exercise, and much mental concentration. Just what you need! Once you get done cleaning out the garage and the gutters. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I am such a party animal.

Spidey

Congrats on the new desk, Spidey!

And thanks for telling the very inspirational story about today's newlyweds... the mushy guy in me likes the fairy tale ending <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> (Even with the few pangs of envy it makes me feel... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )

Now about that 13-year-old !!! YIKES!!!!
When I first read "last month he took the SAT" I thought, "no... she didn't mean SAT..." More congratulations to all three of you... which of course includes one proud Mom and one proud Dad!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">confronting the OM. I bet you caused some waves there. Did your WW ever tell YOU how she felt about that, or just your SIL? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes... and ya know, it was kind of strange. She was definitely in "spewing anger/ranting" mode at the time, and said something like "what are you doing, trying to get me fired? would that make you feel good, huh?!?"
BUT, that was about ALL she said, and I remember her calming down REAL fast. It's easy to manufacture things in our heads... but it was almost as if she was GLAD I did it.

There have been several posts I've read that talked about the WW wanting/needing the BH to "fight" for her. That whole concept can get tricky real fast, because there could be a couple different reasons for the "fight for me" syndrome. One of them is nothing more than a very UNhealthy feed-my-ego need... getting into the theory of Narcissistic Supply and all that miserable stuff... I won't go there...


The rock climbing doesn't start for a while yet.. 6 weeks +/- I think...
I have an older brother who lives... (did somebody say something about Denver?) outside of DENVER, and fell in love with rock climbing a bunch of years ago. Thought I'd get some knowledge/practice under my belt and invite myself out there to join him for some climbing this summer.

Meanwhile, on the subject of recreation, I'm still trying to figure out what to do about a BOAT... I'm not sure I can stand another landlocked summer. WW and I had a boat down on "The Bay" for about 5-6 years (and trailered a boat for 4-5 years before that)... had to sell it when we bought this house... the budget didn't support both at the time. We had some of our best times together on the boat... I can still hear her... see her... as we were anchored out for the night, watching the sunset... sipping on a margarita... she said "we're so lucky to be able to do this." And we toasted to... to everything, I guess.
OK, I'll stop, because my eyes are watering now...

Anyway... a new boat, if I convince myself to do it... will be a very, very bittersweet experience. The thought of being out on the water without my first mate makes me so sad.

Have a GREAT time at the wedding!
UH-OH!!! IF that means wedding reception... ohhhh nooo...
PACE yourself... PACE yourself... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ps. hmmm... looks just a little bit too cloudy out there to clean those gutters... damn...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There have been several posts I've read that talked about the WW wanting/needing the BH to "fight" for her. That whole concept can get tricky real fast, because there could be a couple different reasons for the "fight for me" syndrome. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with the whole paragraph you posted regarding whether to "fight" for her or not. I guess in a romance novel (and daytime TV soaps), that kind of thing works. BUT . . . that is not reality. And WHAT IF you get yourself all worked up to fight a fight with OM, physical or emotional, and it doesn't make a difference? Then just you are hurt, and have lost lots of energy and love in the meantime. But it all just seems juvenile to me. Personally, if I had dug in my heals about something, the more somebody argued it with me, the more sure I would feel that I was right! But perhaps I am a woman-anomoly.

I think purchasing a boat is a FANTASTIC idea. That is definately a recreational activity that you both enjoyed (BTW, now I am the jealous one ~ I have NEVER docked out in a bay and toasted anything to a beatiful sunset <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). Recreational activities might be one of her top EN's. BTW, have you ever taken Dr. Harley's EN questionaire? I did during our separation, and since I knew he!! would freeze over (at the time) before H took it, I did one for him, too! In fact, that is on my to-do list soon: him and I take the EN questionaire again. I think mine will be in a different order, now that he is home, and I'm off the medication. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Anyway, by buying a boat, you could rekindle ALL of those memories in her. I'm telling you, tqt, when a WS becomes motivated to end their wayward status, it can all happen very quickly.

I know the experience will be bitter-sweet, I get that. However, you will run into those situations here and there, and you must just push through to the other side. Acknowledge the feeling, don't fight it, and continue doing what you are doing. Feelings morph and change, and yours will eventually. Part of the beauty of Plan B.

So, I think buying a boat is great on all fronts ~ for you, for her, for your M. This could be the ONE thing that wakes her up. And if it doesn't, then that says a lot to your feelings, as well.

Honestly, most WS's attempt to come back to the M. It might not be while you are RECEPTIVE to that, it is NEVER on the BS's schedule, but most of the time they attempt it. Most usually wake up at some point and say, "WHAT am I DOING here?"

As long as you have one tiny little spark of hope in your heart, there is hope for your M. I remember you told me of a card she gave to you, and told you how perfect you two are for each other. She did love you, tqt. And that doesn't just disappear. It feels like it did to her, maybe not now, but it did in the "heat" of the secret A. It is simply buried under a whole bunch of her CRAP that she needs to start clearing out herself.

I know you want to be there for her, help her, support her. And you are doing that ~ by keeping the door to your M open, waiting to see if she can/will work this thing out. You are giving her the greatest gift of her life RIGHT NOW, by taking yourself out of the triangle, giving her time to figure it all out.

I know she keeps saying she is "too busy." My H said that, AND he created that. He was working two jobs, THEN started SCHOOL again, FULL TIME!!!! Plus Scouts, being a leader. And I showed him, by reflecting his behavior back to him, that his lifestyle wasn't working. I reflected by becoming uninvolved in his A. I could no longer be his excuse, the focus of his anger, the topic of their conversation. Basically, I provided him no more crap to stuff down his feelings for me with. Sure enough, they came to the surface again.

I know we come at this so often from the BS side, but the WS side is quite terrifying, from what I understand. Basically, these WS's have sold themselves out for this "true love" that they justify having because the M was so horribly flawed, and their feelings were "gone" from the BS.

But then, often after exposure (reality), and Plan B is implemented, they begin to realize that they still HAVE feelings for the BS. My H told me that was a horrible realization for him, because then he wasn't some victim, he was a messed up "monster (his words, not mine)" who had hurt his entire family ~ the same family he had vowed for 15 years to protect from harm. Sudddenly, he realized that he failed to protect us from HIMSELF. He was horrified.

And it took a LOT of gumption for him to say, just to himself, "I have made a mistake. I still love my W. I want to be a member of this family." Just saying that to himself took a LONG time from when he first realized there were still feelings for me.

I didn't understand that for a long time. Because here I was saying, "Come home, we can work it all out, we can rebuild our M." And he was looking at me like a deer in the headlights. And I heard all the stuff your WW says, "I'm too busy," "I haven't had time," "Things have gone too far to go back now," "Divorce is the only way after all this," etc. It was like he was speaking Greek to me. It seemed so simple to me.

But to them, it is very confusing. Like an exhausting maze they must go through, pushing and probing at everything to see if it is real or not. Now, they don't even trust themselves. They don't even know what they are doing! What they are feeling.

She lives in that daily. It is exhausting.

Then, here comes the joy, the peace, the constant friendship that you offer her ~ you don't need to tell her, she knows. AND, you bought a boat! Oh, another boat, she remembers all the toasts to the sunsets, all the special memories. She remembers how lucky you two were to be able to do that. Are you going to be doing that without her? She is the only one holding that dream back. That could be a powerful motivator for her, tqt.

When my H began remembering what a great team we were, that is when his feelings for me began to surface. We had always prided ourselves on all the stuff we had gotten through. We have lived several of life's stressors at one time, and always came out with our heads above water. We have steadily progressed onward and upward, against the odds.

When those memories and feelings got triggered in H again, it all happened very quickly.

Wow, this turned into a long post. Hope you are having a great weekend. Are you doing OK about tomorrow? Do you have any plans besides having a pity party by yourself at your house? HM??? At least you should go to the gym. And realize that you will not be in this place forever. It will get better, one way or another. That thought always made me feel better.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, this turned into a long post. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No kiddin'! I'm STILL reading it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Weird day today... things going well until I decided to do a little yard/outside-type work...
WW is plastered all over the place out there... I see her, the fruits of her labor...and all the things we did together... so much work we put into this place... I see the dogs running around (I miss 'em!)... WW's !%@#^& "aura" is everywhere... I'm almost afraid to go outside.

Spring is right around the corner...and it's going to be hard.

More later... seems like a good time to go blast some pectoral muscles.

tqt, I hope you didn't take the "pity party" comment personally. I have pity parties every now and again myself, especially on those very "special" days of triggers and anniversaries.

I wasn't trying to talk down to you. Sometimes, I just don't think before I type!

Take care. I am sorry you are seeing your WW in so many things. I really think she sees the same as you do, she just can't admit what is going with herself.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">tqt, I hope you didn't take the "pity party" comment personally. I have pity parties every now and again myself, especially on those very "special" days of triggers and anniversaries. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, not at all, Spidey! Thanks for your concern, though. Nope... I'm going to be fine with this Val. Day stuff. Personally, I think the whole thing is highly overrated. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Somehow... as long as I keep my guard up, of course... I'm doing ok with it. This IS the Big D-Day/Confrontation/Trigger holiday -- maybe what happened last year has led me to subconsciously (re)program everything... how I'm dealing with it..some sort of survival mechanism. Not sure how to say it.

Allow me to reflect on some history...

As I write this, I get SO frustrated, because the first thing that comes to mind is how DAMN FORGIVING I've been... anyway, I must've been VERY suspicious back in early Feb 04, because WW came home from Target and I checked the receipt. Well, I found TWO receipts. One receipt was for two greeting cards -- nothing else. Ended up, somehow, checking the glove compartment in her car... wondering where these two cards were... the rest is history. What those cards said has been permanently burned into my brain.

Anyway... no pity parties here. Hey, with all the loud music, free-flowing booze, and a gaggle of women frolicking in the hot tub, there will be NO time for pity!

Ooops, whoa! Sorry, technical problem here... that was meant for the OTHER discussion forum... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry you are seeing your WW in so many things. I really think she sees the same as you do, she just can't admit what is going with herself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ya know, I want this down on the record: I DO love her...I DO ache for her, and everything I write is from my heart. But SOMEwhere in me, and I have glimpses of it once in a while -- I'm REALLY PISSED... I'm really disgusted... and I'm really angry. Just want to make sure the title of this book isn't "How Mr. WimpHead Lost His Wife."

And I still think about how I'm going to handle the first time I stumble upon WW and OM out there somewhere.

THAT leads me to... I think I'm going to throw out a new thread entitled "GUILT." I'm hoping some WS/FWS's can help me understand how they can LIVE every day and SLEEP every night with what I would THINK would be debilitating guilt. It's bugging me. What's your insight on that?? Help me out here...I just DON'T get it. The only thing I can think of that could transcend the guilt would be Selfishness in Astronomical Proportions.

(also wondering what's up with Homer? Kinda worrying about her.)


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think purchasing a boat is a FANTASTIC idea.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Me too. "Instant babe magnet" as one person told me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

JUST kidding.

No, seriously!

More on that subject next time. It gets complicated (logistically, in terms of where we are at this point) and I need to think about the situation...


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honestly, most WS's attempt to come back to the M. It might not be while you are RECEPTIVE to that, it is NEVER on the BS's schedule, but most of the time they attempt it. Most usually wake up at some point and say, "WHAT am I DOING here?"

As long as you have one tiny little spark of hope in your heart, there is hope for your M.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spidey, I want you (and the hoards/throngs/masses of other people reading this) to know that I'm not fooling myself here. I know the odds, in other words. I often think that YOU should spend your time helping someone who has a better chance... IOW, I feel guilty... with all you have to offer someone here... know what I mean?!?!?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And it took a LOT of gumption for him to say, just to himself, "I have made a mistake. I still love my W. I want to be a member of this family." Just saying that to himself took a LONG time from when he first realized there were still feelings for me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know and I know, that THAT took a lot of strength and courage -- to come to terms with it, and then to express it.

Right?

Well, that's where I get discouraged... my WW is not courageous in that sense. In fact... when it comes to facing herself, her mistakes, her emotions... she's very weak. The weaknesses that led her down her "chosen" path are the same weaknesses that will quite likely keep her from coming back.

But, I don't want to end this on a bad note. I'm some sort of hopeless/hopeful romantic or something... I still have hope. She's still the one I want to make happy. I still want another chance. I just hope she hurries.

Thanks, Ms. Spidey... You're great <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

tqt, do you have a SENSE of what it would look like, feel like, if your WW DID find the gumption within herself? From your perspective? Can you even IMAGINE what it would look like to you? I know you don't think she has it in her, and I respect your opinion, as you probably know her better than anyone else on earth. HOWEVER, I truly believe we ALL have the capacity to become more than we have ever been before ~ more than we ever imagined possible for ourselves.

Is there anything your WW has ever done (besides the A business) that she didn't think herself capable of, and surprised herself? Maybe even surprised you? Anything ~ a job promotion, learning to skydive, learning a foreign language, overcoming a fear of something (even if for just a short period of time) to do something else she really wanted to do?

In other words, do you have ANY reason, however improbable/impossible/unlikely, to believe your WW is capable of becoming more than she is?

Because I believe, that before she can find that in herself, she might have to see it reflected back to her by YOU. Does that make sense?

Spidey

Those are very difficult questions. I'm not sure if they should be, or if they would've been a year ago, but they are now.
Difficult, at least, to answer with any semblance of clarity...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I truly believe we ALL have the capacity to become more than we have ever been before ~ more than we ever imagined possible for ourselves.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree 110%. Including my WW.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In other words, do you have ANY reason, however improbable/impossible/unlikely, to believe your WW is capable of becoming more than she is?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes!

In the context of this whole mess, and where she is right now "with herself" -- it becomes really hard to get a grasp on that subject: "becoming more than she is." I understand where you're coming from, though.

I'm afraid that HER definition of "becoming more..." doesn't include dealing with her own True, Authentic Self -- which is the "thing" that she has to deal with regardless of what happens to our M.

She's done very well in her job. And she's "about average" when it comes to trying new things -- as long as someone else pulls her along. Would she, for example, ever decide -- all on her own -- to learn a foreign language, or go skydiving, just because? No.

As I've said before, she's never had many interests outside of work. When we bought our house, she really started getting into gardening -- but now that she's left (and in an apartment), she doesn't have that anymore.

But... I believe what you're saying, Spidey, in the context of everything, "capable of becoming more..." really means rising above the guilt and shame, admitting her mistakes, finding within herself the capacity to forgive herself, forgive me, and facing and dealing with the reality of what she's done to herself and her husband. It's mental/emotional/spiritual growth you're talking about, isn't it?

Or am I completely missing your point?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">before she can find that in herself, she might have to see it reflected back to her by YOU.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I can interpret that in a couple different ways -- is there another way you can say it, so I'm sure I understand?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's mental/emotional/spiritual growth you're talking about, isn't it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> before she can find that in herself, she might have to see it reflected back to her by YOU. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I mean by this is a bunch of little things. Because you are in Plan B now, you have to wait for her to reach out to you again. When she does, and you hear comments like, "Well, I guess D is the only option now," this is your opportunity to reflect back to her YOUR beliefs. "Really? D is the only option? I didn't read that anywhere, as far as a rule. I believe we are capable of overcoming anything, together. I believe you are capable of doing anything you put your mind to."

Something like that. The reason my H had hope to come back home, is because I told him the stuff I'd learned. I didn't try to educate him about the fog ~ just forget it. They cannot understand. BUT, I told him about the success rates I'd read for recovery, that the majority of the couples that DID recover their M's kept saying how their M was now better than EVER.

I told him that if he wanted a D, he needed to do the work, because I didn't want a D, but I wouldn't fight him on it, either. In fact, near the end of the separation, I told him I wanted to do our MC to make sure the D was the only option.

Anyway, my H knew by the things I told him that if he came home, it wasn't going to be bash-on-him day, every day. That he wasn't going to have to grovel and beg for forgiveness. He knew that I took my share of the responsibility for where the M was at before the A.

I think many WS's fear the unknown of coming home. "What's going to happen? How is this going to work? How can we possibly ever get along again, let alone love again?"

These things are all very overwhelming. If, through her limited contact with you, she begins to feel no pressure about making an immediate decision, she begins to hear your unwaivering optimism that if she just gives it a chance, your M has a chance, she might not feel painted into the corner she is in.

My H told me that one of the reasons he continued contacting OW after he moved out, is because he felt like she was the only friend he deserved. Because she was as bad as he was (with the lying and the cheating), and he didn't feel he DESERVED being with me.

Which seemed silly to me, because from MY perspective, he didn't WANT to be with me, he only wanted to be with her. Because I told him I wanted to talk to him, be with him, I wanted to try to recover our M. But he just couldn't let himself do that for a while! His behavior seemed so completely self-centered and selfish at the time, I always assumed all his actions were along that same path of thoughlessness. BUT, he was trying to protect me from himself. He didn't trust himself, didn't know himself.

Honestly, tqt, if you can hold out, I really think your WW will dump the OM. It is about the time the chemicals are beginning to wear off, the dopamine, the "romantic love" feelings. You two have a LOT of history together, that binds you in the strongest and longest parts of love, the attachment phase.

Maybe the next time she contacts you, tell her about her gardens at the house. In an upbeat, positive way, tell her that you are amazed at how quickly something so beautiful and wonderfully created, can turn into a big mess when it isn't constantly tended and pruned. Try and let her know that by creating her gardens, she did something that she didn't know she could do, and that you have confidence in her that she can do ANYthing she puts her mind to.

Perhaps tell her that you are thinking about buying another boat. Tell her you have thought back on your life, and really honed in on the things you enjoy, and that owning a boat is one that you want to create again. And how you sure do hope your first mate shows up soon, since she is MIA.

Use your humor, your great words, and try and always come from a place of love and support for her. Confidence even, that she can do ANYthing she puts her mind to, and that you will be there to support her no matter what. OM might only support her in things HE wants. YOU support her in ALL things, even if that means she is pursuing D. I used to tell my H, "If you D me, that is fine. I don't believe in it, and I intend to wait for you afterwards, because I have read I should wait for a year after D to make sure it is what we both want."

And he would roll his eyes at me, and mutter "whatever." But it really gave him hope. That's what he says now, anyway. At the time, I felt like I was driving him further away. Apparently, the more he stayed away, the more guilt he felt, the more hope he felt, were all connected.

Did I go overboard again with my task-list for the BS? I wasn't perfect, BELIEVE me. But, each time I LB'd or DJ'd or contacted him when I wasn't supposed to, I just let it go and got back on my Spidey Train. I was a woman on a mission! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">if you can hold out, I really think your WW will dump the OM. It is about the time the chemicals are beginning to wear off, the dopamine, the "romantic love" feelings. You two have a LOT of history together, that binds you in the strongest and longest parts of love, the attachment phase.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The Real Me wants to ask my WW this question, and get a Real Answer:

Do you feel like you're in a hole that you can't get out of?

The "hole" being the R with OM.

I believe she would've dumped him a long time ago, and I believe she's been wary of her feelings for him for a long time. From things she has said, for the most part.

So IOW, I think you are right...BUT...here's the BUT's...

She's weak. She's down on herself. She's confused. She's lost.

He's a smooth-talker. He's a salesman. He divorced his wife to pursue mine!

I would not be the LEAST bit surprised if WW feels OBLIGATED to this piece of scum.
She is in constant need of attention, approval, admiration (and entertainment, hate to say) --- and OF COURSE OM is dedicating his EXISTENCE to giving her all of those things.

Her alternative to her current arrangement? HURT the OM, leave him stranded, and come back to face the ruins of her marriage that she destroyed. And... face herself. Face my family. Admit to friends, co-workers, and her family that she made a huge, terrible mistake.

And by coming back, she piles even [/i]more[/i] hurt (the OM) on top of the mountain of it she's already built. If she stays where she is, there's no more hurting anyone...

I can almost understand why she's staying put. It's human nature. It's avoiding pain -- the very first thing we wonderful humans are programmed to do.

This just came to mind... and it's a very simple theory. But, maybe it's valid...in some way.
WW really does not know what she wants out of life. What OM is giving her right now helps her to forget about that. As long as she has the "Three A's" (attention, approval, admiration), she can survive forever, and never has to go any deeper... any deeper is a place she does NOT WANT TO GO. IT'S TOO DAMN FRIGHTENING DOWN THERE.

THAT is what I believe I am up against.

That's what leads me to want to ask her:

Do you feel like you're in a hole that you can't get out of?

And just pray that in her response -- if she's in the right mood, if the weather is just right, if the stars are aligned JUST so... --- that in her response there's some little glimpse of truth and sincerity and genuineness and vulnerability and HUMILITY.

I can HEAR her saying, in answer to that question: "sometimes I do, yeah."
Her favorite response to probing questions is usually something like "sometimes" or "not a 100%" or "once in a while." NEVER allowing? herself to COME TO GRIPS with WHAT IS.

And then it's up to me to wade through the ambiguity...

And THEN the Real Me would say to her: "We can work together to get out of that hole. Together we can do anything."

BUT... I'm in Plan B.... that kinda puts a damper on all this hogwash, eh?

I often wonder if "MB Principles, 2010 Edition" will have a Plan C.
I'm wondering what the hell I'm supposed to do when Plan B is not working... when my WW isn't budging an inch, isn't filing for divorce, and I still love her. What now?!?

What now, other than look up in the sky and hope some warm, loving, caring, affectionate woman drops out of the sky and into my lap?

ps. I know I didn't really answer your questions/respond to what you said -- I guess I just had some stuff to dump out of my brain. Will try to clear my head a little with a workout, and get back to this after.

pps. Thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />