Homer, grasping the concept, even if not sure about implementation, is KEY. The more you wrap your brain around it, the more you "talk" about it, the clearer it becomes. You are truly turning a corner.

I am the "manager" as well. And, being BRUTALLY honest with myself, I KNOW in the past I took advantage of my H's conflict avoidance to railroad him into getting what I wanted. Does HE have responsibility for NOT saying anything, just going along with it, and letting resentment grow and fester??? Heck ya! Eventually, he was able to even admit that to himself ~ that by him choosing to NOT make decisions, was in itself a DECISION. BUT, I cannot control him. I can control me.

I know he tends to conflict avoid, just as I tend to railroad. We have BOTH made a commitment to each other, in our NEW M, that he needs to speak up, and I need to back off when I hear something I don't want to hear.

The HARDEST thing I did, Homer, was to let my H make his OWN decisions during our separation.

HIS decision to not have contact with me, I honored it. HIS decision to spend time with his boys, I honored it. He even got a credit card, and started charging stuff on it, and had it sent to HIS apartment address. I just let it go.

You SO HAVE the concept, Homer! This is a very exciting time in your life, you will never be the same. You will be MORE.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are trying to get them to do something that we want ....we are still trying to control them without really knowing thats what we are doing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand... but here's what I'm struggling with right now:

Although I think I'd still like my WW to come back, there's absolutely no evidence to suggest that it's even a remote possibility.

Homer, I think we do think alike, and we've been in sort of the same situation for a while, but... things are a little different now. I have to face the facts, among them being my WW hasn't attempted any contact in -- I don't even remember now -- in a while.

I feel like I'm wasting my time... every day that goes by is another day that I could truly be moving on/starting over. I haven't been able to do that in Plan B mode -- maybe there's something wrong with me, I don't know... on the other hand, I know darn well that "moving on" includes making myself available for... and searching out when I'm ready... another partner in my life.

So... before I give up... and I guess "giving up" means either:

1) file for D because WW apparently won't do it
or
2) ignore my WW, my marriage, my vows, my principles, and any D-related action... and start actively dating/pursuing/kidnapping women/etc.

it just seems to make sense for me to try to "get a reading" from her one last time... and depending on what kind of reading I get, make a decision -- hang on a little longer, or file for D. Soon. Like next week.

SO... is this being "controlling?" I don't think so -- it's just recognizing that I need some kind of information (so to speak) before making a final decision to call it quits.

IOW, it feels like it's time to go to Plan C.

Plan C is:
1) attempt to gather as much information as possible
2) analyze the results
3) make a decision: go to Plan D, or back to Plan B for one last shot.

Spidey, what say you about all this gibberish?
Homer, hang in there -- at least your WH is communicating with you!

tqt, what do I think? The same thing I always think when you bring up Plan C ~ there is no Plan C! And for good reason.

To be brutally honest (that is my phrase for the day, BTW), if you don't use your dating skills, or er, other skills, nothing is going to fall off of you. It won't wither away and die from no use. Dating does NOT need to be included in "moving forward" plans.

I don't understand why you still feel compelled to get any information from your WW before you make decisions. She cannot give you anything of any relevance! Go ask your mailbox ~ you'll get a more clear message *silence* than anything you can receive from your WW.

You have fixed your mind upon a *reason* for communicating with your WW. You have NO REASON to contact her. Right now, you know everything she can tell you ~ that she doesn't want to communicate with you.

You want to buy a boat? Buy a boat! If she comes home, and you choose to sell it, sell it! You want to sell the house and move? Do it! You two can buy another house if/when you reconcile. You want to remodel the bathroom? Do it! You can still stay in the house, or move! Just HANG OUT.

WHAT IF you make a big deal about dating, move to Plan D because of it, and find out that 1)the "fish" aren't biting, or 2)it's really not all you thought it would be.

Wanting to be with someone is a BIG DEAL, I do get that. BUT, there is a lot to be said for quality (with love) than quantity (ONS).

The best gift you can give to yourself, and your WW, and your M, is more time. Time for her to think, time for you to think, time for decisions to be made coming from places of peace/sanctuary, rather than anger/fear.

You still only have 2 choices:

1)File for Plan D yourself if you cannot wait anymore, or

2)Hang out in Plan B

You should go read dewt's thread on "Hopeless romantic, or beating a dead horse." You are not the only person who is not sure what they are doing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey

SIGH...alas...yes TQT I am finally realizing that badgering (reference to the GREAT state of WI) our WS for info, or "gathering" info is indeed controlling. My WH response "Divorce is our only option" is truely what he felt at this point in time because he really doesn't know what the hell he wants, and if I absolutely need an answer right this very minute.....well he gave it to me.
And I didn't like it. Our WS's are not on the same timeline and hopefully they will catch up or slow down which ever way...But as long as I or you continue to push for info we are controlling them. We can control our destiny by filing for the D because we can't take anymore or by finding ways to pass the time while we wait but not by coercing them to make up their mind.

I agree with Spydie when she asked me who was that letter I wrote really for. Guess what!! It was for ME!!! It was a way for me to manipulate my WH emotions by making him feel bad for me, by making him not want to hurt me by the choices that he will have to make. Reverse Psychology is control.

I think you know in your heart what you want. And who am I to tell you otherwise. I am still not always sure I agree with all of the MB theories, sometimes they feel like games. You are really at the fork in the road. I just got this from a friend today. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do not go where the path may lead;
go instead where there is no path,
and leave a trail.
-Ralph Waldo Emerson </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand you wanting to try on last time to check in with WS. It is almost like you are asking for permission to get on with your life. Her past decisions say she really doesn't care what you do. She didn't ask you for permission to have the "A". She didn't say "Gee Honey will it be Ok for me to have sex with someone else?". Then why should you ask her "Honey, is it Ok for me to divorce you". Gosh that sounds harsh...sorry. I guess I am just finally realizing that we are the Captains of our own Destiny. Maybe you should start getting your finances in order, she will obviously get the message one way or the other.

But if you feel you owe it to yourself (not her) one last attempt...do it. But maybe just inform her of your decision and not make it seem like it depends on her. Just tell her...I love you, but I have decided that it just isn't enough and I am filing for a divorce. Then try to figure out how the hell to get over the pain. That is where I am stuck. If I could just not hurt and if I could take away yours and all the rest of us...I would do it in a heartbeat.

1) I'm getting closer to giving up
2) My heart AND my gut AND my intuition AND my brain are telling me that it's hopeless
3) But I DO still love her and would LIKE her to come back -- I think? Not sure, 'cuz I don't even remember what she looks like, for starters...

Now, HERE is where The Elusive Point That I'm Trying to Make gets lost due to my lousy writing skills...

JUST BECAUSE of ALL of the above (1,2 and 3) are TRUE, it does NOT mean I can or should hang out in Plan B forever.

IF I'm at the point where I've given up, or I'm REAL DARN CLOSE to it.... what do I have to lose by having a conversation with her?

I understand the control thing -- I really do.
THIS isn't about control, or trying to extract information from her, or coercing to do ANYthing or SAY anything.
It's about feeling -- as much as possible -- AT PEACE with what I do next.
It's about LISTENING.
Not controlling.

There's this big huge taboo about having a conversation with her....

AHHHHHHH!!!!!!! YOU WHAT??!?!?!?!?!? YOU TALKED TO YOUR WIFE!?!?!?!?!?!?!

C'mon now... I haven't talked with my wife in at least 2-3 weeks(?)
Does it REALLY MAKE SENSE to FILE FOR DIVORCE and END our 25-year-long relationship, before picking up the phone and initiating a conversation and LISTENING to what she has to SAY???! Maybe she says nothing... maybe she says Go To He!!... so what?!?!?

But MAYBE.... after ALL this crap I've gone through.... JUST MAYBE... she squeaks out a little blip (can you squeak a blip?) of SOMETHING that makes me go (in my head) HEY! TQT! There just MIGHT be SOMEthing going ON here! Give it another week or two, dude!!
Maybe my phone call saves my marriage!

C'mon now... convince me again... if I've given up, just file for D. Don't bother calling her.

My kingdom for a Plan C! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Does it REALLY MAKE SENSE to FILE FOR DIVORCE and END our 25-year-long relationship, before picking up the phone and initiating a conversation and LISTENING to what she has to SAY???! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! I am just SAYING that if SHE has something to say to YOU, then SHE will call YOU.

If she wanted to make a decision right now, she would have. I'm sure she's heard that more than once from the OM, "If you know you don't love him anymore, why don't you D him?"

IF you ask her to make a decision, it will be to go ahead with the D, just like all the other times you have asked her. If this were the first time you wanted to ask her this, I would support you (like I did the first time). But you have been there, done that.

coach said something very interesting on another thread. I will copy and paste it here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And we all know that relationships take place on many different levels at different times. Even more to the point, they are effected by outside influences and events outside of our personal control. Given that this is true, I would guess that the judgment one makes in trying to maintain a relationship is determined strictly by the value we place on the other person; or if we are not who we might want to be, it might be based on what that other person can bring to us or do for us.

I think that what’s important to remember is that good people often do bad things yet, we value them in spite of those “bad things” that they do because we see something in them that warrant a different level of understanding and acceptance. In effect, one might ask themselves, what kind of person am I if I stop loving or caring for a person because they do some thing hurtful or damaging to me or that I simply disapprove of?

I always believed that to love is a choice that I make and in that I’m free to make that choice, I’m also free to choose to not have a person that I love, be in my life any longer. Loving some one demands only that we accept and care “in spite of “ as well as “because of.” It doesn’t demand that we allow a person to be in our life when they commit hurtful acts that negatively affect us.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On Homer's thread, he also said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> To often we are polarized by the spectre of *what if*rather then *what is.* He is living some where else at the moment and will continue to do so, so what is really going to change? You are allowing yourself to be traumatized by a word. Divorce in concept is horrible but in reality, all it is, is a word. Finality comes only when one or both of you decide that no further discourse is possible.

I think that what you need to do is MAKE this process end up being just one more costly and difficult step toward achieving reconciliation. Divorce doesn’t have to signal the end of anything if you refuse to let it. It’s just a legal term and means nothing in the end unless you decide to accept its finality.

Maybe what you need to do is allow your H to have his way in this matter, while taking the time and making the effort to SHOW him, (not tell him but SHOW him) that you are really GOING to be a different woman…not just for him…but for YOUSELF!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IF you want to contact your WW and do whatever you feel you need to do, I do support you. I believe I can predict the conversation, so I will record that prediction down here, and we can see if I'm "on."

You will hem and haw a couple days before calling her, because you are afraid of what she will say, because deep down, you already know what she will say, because she has said it before. Then, you will finally call, and maybe not be able to get ahold of her at first, which will kinda throw you off, because you were finally ready!

Then, you will talk to her, and she will bring up nonsensical things that are VERY important to her (cable bill, dog watching), and when you ask about D, she will agree with you that it is the only way out, the only option. She doesn't have time for IC, or time to file for D, so when you get off the phone, you will once again be . . . oh yeah, where you are now, in that you want to do something, you want her to do something, but she just won't.

But you don't want to do something, either, because what if your WW really doesn't want a D, but you force her hand, because you are feeling like something needs to happen *now*?

That is my prediction.

I know I am being harsh with you. And if you are ticked at me, I understand. Every once in a while, even *I* offend. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

huh?!

Sorry, I just feel that you have done this same thing about 3 different times now. I know you are feeling very compelled to do this thing, contacting your WW, and find some kind of "closure" or something. First off, I don't believe in "closure." And if there is such a thing, it certainly cannot be found in another person ~ only you.

BUT, I am here for you, and I am sorry I was so flippant and ugly to you in my last post.

Do you realize you have done this same "plan" before, and afterwards each time you indicate that you don't want to do it again, because you cannot find what you seek with her? I hate to see you in pain and turmoil, especially when it seems to be self-inflicted.

Spidey

Spidey,
I understand...
Tell me though, please... do you understand at all where I'm coming from?

Sure... I have pain, and anger, and fear, and...all the other emotions... but I don't feel like it's beyond a "normal" state. My "Plan C" is not coming from fear, or from anger. It's probably coming from whatever it is in me that says... "you're kidding yourself... it's time to let go." Maybe that translates to pain in some way, I don't know.

And yes... seek some sort of closure.

Closure is important in the grieving process, isn't it?

How do all the other Plan B's end? Do people just sort of drift away?

On a good note <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .... I'm not trying real hard, but I can't get myself to even WANT to call her...

I TOTALLY understand where you are coming from. I also desperately wanted my H to tell me SOMEthing useful during the time of our separation. BUT, when I pressed him, all he said was that he wanted a D.

Because he wasn't ready to make a decision. I believe that if you WW knew she wanted a D, she would have found the time to file the papers. I believe that each day you are in Plan B, and you don't have any D papers filed on you, that you have an answer ~ she is NOT SURE!

Even though my H said he was sure, he wasn't.

I guess from where I'm at, you already have the best answer you are going to get from her ~ she's still figuring it out. Does that mean she thinks about it every minute of every day? I doubt it. She probably tries NOT to think about it. BUT, it is not "closed" for her, either. Human nature demands that we close these types of relationships down, before moving on.

Sooner or later, she will feel compelled to DO SOMETHING. I know you don't think that, but I really do. And you have attempted to get an indication from her before, and she gives you nothing, except grief about the cable bill!

YOu know the definition of insanity, right? Doing the same things over and over and expecting different results?

When the brain really wants to do something, it can rationalize with all kinds of creative thinking. I believe this is the same thing you have wanted to do before (calling her), but you have convinced yourself it is for a different reason. Does that make sense? Are you open to the possibility you are so close to this, that you can't fully see the forest for the trees? And that we have your best interests at heart, we aren't just trying to win a debate contest? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I truly do understand where you are coming from. I remember those feelings very well. I wish I could make them go away for you. I do feel I can help protect you from self-inflicted pain, though, and that is where my heart is right now. I could be way off base, though, it happened once before, a long time ago . . . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey

ps, please know I am kidding about being wrong just ONCE. I wish! It was actually twice . . . ugh, somebody stop me!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does that make sense?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course not! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

None of this makes sense to me, because...

I'm someone who thinks the Human Race would be a LOT better off with a big huge healthy dose of Humility & Honesty. (Although I believe the Humility part of the concoction would negate the need for most of the Honesty part.)

IOW, I guess I have a hard time with the lack thereof...

And none of this, ummm... STUFF... would happen if we all just went down to the local drugstore and got a hefty shot of H & H.

(But then there'd be a big insurance issue, and then it'd go to our politicians, and... so, forget it I ever mentioned it.) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you open to the possibility you are so close to this, that you can't fully see the forest for the trees?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I am. I really am.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And that we have your best interests at heart,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">we aren't just trying to win a debate contest?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That part I'm not sure about. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


And NO, I'm not calling her tonight....

ps. you were supposed to "do nothing" today, weren't ya? Yeah, well... you didn't do nothing, that's for sure!

Spidey... thank you.

tqt-

I'm so selfish, you post to me all the time and I just realized I have no idea of your situation. I'm gonna try to read all this post.

I'm sorry.

-Caren

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm gonna try to read all this post. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh heavens! Caren, make sure and let us know which parts we should NOT include in our book version. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Okay, I admittingly just skimmed...dang this is long. I got the high-points. I don't know why it hadn't occurred to me to read it before. I guess I was too busy wallowing in the quagmire...ya know?

I always look forward to what you have to say tqt...and now I have a general idea where you're coming from <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-Caren

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I got the high-points.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jumpin' Jiminy give me the page#... where the he!! did you find a high point?!?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't know why it hadn't occurred to me to read it before. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ummm... I'm thinking... good judgement?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I was too busy wallowing in the quagmire...ya know?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, no... Caren... this IS... The Quagmire.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and now I have a general idea where you're coming from </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, well, now we're BOTH in deep ****. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ps. Caren, thanks... I really mean that. But don't worry about me... I get beaten across the brow by The Best in the Business on a regular basis (even on holidays).
How 'bout if I pick you up tomorrow and we both move to Idaho? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How 'bout if I pick you up tomorrow and we both move to Idaho? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, bring a boat! I am so glad Caren just skimmed, I was really worried. I had this mental picture of her cutie little head (saw your pic), with her cutie little eyes bulged out, in some sort of deep comatose state. With all the veins popped in her eyeballs. It was a scary mental picture! Skimming is really the only way to go on this thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am so excited, tqt, we actually have "high points" over here. And I know we have at least one quotable quote, because I saw it in a sig line somewhere!

So, how you feeling today? Have you tackled those gutters yet?

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Skimming is really the only way to go on this thread. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would have to agree with you on that.

The only other way -- not that it's EVER been done before -- would be to slosh through it, and that gets hard on the knees!

Something's bothering me, though. Have you thought about how much shelf space the book is going to eat up?
I just hope our publishing company knows what they're doing(?)


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, how you feeling today? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've been on an even keel for at least 2.5 hours now. And frankly, it scares the bejesus out of me....

Will have some practical/logistical questions for ya later, if that's ok with you...
nothing serious, but want to make sure I have My Plan together.

(As opposed to having My Act together, which is way beyond the scope of this book.)


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you tackled those gutters yet? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm... now you got me thinking.

Do they have gutters in Idaho?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've been on an even keel for at least 2.5 hours now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As Frank would say (Everybody Loves Raymond), "Holy Crap!" That's like a personal record! Except for that one time, when you weren't paying attention, and a couple days actually slipped past you (I think it was right before the call about the cable bill <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

Logistical questions? Bring 'em on! Now, shouldn't the Plan you are referring to, with a capital P, be Plan B? Instead of "My Plan?" You always scare me when I think you are leaning towards plan "customization," again.

*sigh*

Just like having a convo with my H! You engineers are all alike.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, shouldn't the Plan you are referring to, with a capital P, be Plan B? Instead of "My Plan?" You always scare me when I think you are leaning towards plan "customization," again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spidey... here's what I figure... you THRIVE on the challenge. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well, remember way back to this morning when I was proud of myself for being on an "even keel for 2.5 hours?"

Uh-oh!

Ok... here's the scoop:

Am I in Plan B?
Then...no further questions, Your Honor.

BUT...

TONIGHT I will be tossing and turning all night long... aching for the light of day... at which time I will introduce a soon-to-be-infamous new thread:

"Exceptions to Plan B"

Unless, of course, I change my mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Seriously... as time goes on... as you drill this stuff into me... I understand more and more about WHY Plan B exists, and HOW Plan B works.

BUT...

I still believe that there must be situations in which the Plan B protocol is not the best way to save the marriage at all costs.

Do I think MY situation is definitely one of the exceptions? Nope!!!!

BUT...

I still wonder...

tqt:

Ahem.....so I'm sitting here with my bags packed waiting to go to Idaho.....but NO ONE ever came to get me. LOL

-Caren