</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do I sound self-righteous, or controlling, or manipulative, or ?? I hope not... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heck no!

It is as you said, I just don't want you to go through more anguish. BUT, as I have told you before, I support you no matter what you choose to do (Plans A, B, C or D!).

Just make sure you come here and post, and vent, and let us know how you are feeling.

My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is as you said, I just don't want you to go through more anguish. BUT, as I have told you before, I support you no matter what you choose to do (Plans A, B, C or D!).

Just make sure you come here and post, and vent, and let us know how you are feeling.

My thoughts and prayers are with you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All that... it means SOOO much to me.
Thank you.

I called WW/STBXW last night. She didn't answer home or cell phones... I tried a few times... then assumed she/they had left for Fla.
She called back about 15 minutes later. Said she couldn't really talk; she'd call me tomorrow... volunteered that she was at OM's place. It was late enough that it was obvious she was spending the night there (I asked where the dogs were -- I'm ALWAYS worrying about the dogs <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> -- our "kids"... I think it hurt more to hear that the dogs were at OM's place than it did knowing WW was there... go figure...)

ANYway... she said she'd call tomorrow; I said I wouldn't be home... she asked where I was, and wish I didn't tell her, because now I'm worrying about her going to the house today and doing/taking god-knows-what...

In the short conversation, pretty much all I asked her was "what's going on..." and she knew I meant "WTH haven't you done anything about a D?!?!" But I was calm, friendly, somewhat indifferent... just asking for information...leaving it open for her to say anything at all. And, of course you were right, Spidey and Homer, she didn't give me anything. She said something like "it's too complicated a subject to talk about now" and then the lousy connection was about to drop altogether, and she said "I'm hanging up."

Bottom line... she sounded clueless, probably because she is. She sounded surprised to hear from me. Most importantly, I'm FINE with the "conversation." Took me about 10 minutes to "recover" -- and not too long ago -- as we know -- it would've taken me days.

At this point, I'm going to pursue D, but try to get her to do the legwork. I no longer respect her at all, I don't think... she's a lost soul... and I've tried my very very best to "be there" for her through everything. She's latching on to... soaking up... her very LIFE is dependent on the attention/approval she's getting from OM. And according to OM's wife, he's lost too... so they have each other, and as OM's wife said: they deserve each other.

Sorry to ramble... but I am ok... I feel better, stronger, more in control today than I have in weeks (months?).

Only thing I'm wondering now is, as I go through the process of "pressuring" her (for lack of a better word) to initiate a D... do I throw all caution to the wind and remind her that I don't want a D, but it has to be? Do I remind her that I (I think) still love her? Do I remind her that most M's survive A's, and it's only because of her that ours will not be one of them? IOW, as we part ways forever, do I tell her exactly how I feel?

Stupid questions(?) I'm new at this...

I still firmly stand on my belief that if you want a D, you should do your own legwork. If it is what you have decided, do it. Trying to "pressure" her into doing something she's not sure about, will just bring you more anguish, IMO.

She already knows all that stuff, tqt. She knows you have been there for her, that you still think about her, that you still love her. She seems to be very secure in that knowledge. Perhaps she believes you will wait forever for her to make up her mind ~ perhaps you will.

But, if you cannot, start the process yourself. I have read recently on MB several men who have felt compelled to end their M's, because their WW's refuse to end the A, and they simply are done. And they are considered MB success stories. Because MB is NOT about saving every M at any cost. It is about personal recovery, IMO.

Part of your personal recovery may be to end this energy drain. You very well might not be able to move in any direction until this business has come to some type of end. [I hate the word "closure"]

IF you want this, YOU should do it. I firmly believe in this. Remember, D is just paper. It doesn't mean that reconcilliation won't ever happen. Many couples reunite after D. Sometimes, the old M must be completely dead and buried before the new relationship can come out.

But please begin making decision for YOU, that YOU are willing to follow-through with. Hoping/wishing/pressuring your WW to do something that YOU want, is like pi$$ing in the wind, IMO. In the wrong direction even ~ MESSY, and nasty, and useless.

Spidey

tqt....Spider is talking to us both. If we have decided on D, then we need to do the work. Our WS are not going to do it...why should they...it would be closing the door on their cake eating...it would be the end of something they want to hang on to because it is actually quite good they just don't know it.

You can file and set boundaries, and it may
persuade her to take a good look at herself...then you can always sit on it. My state has a 120 day waiting period. If you move on the papers and financials then at least that part is done.

I have put together an email for my WH and can't bring myself to send it. Basically it says "If you don't want to work on the M and want a divorce then here are my boundaries as we proceed. Start taking your DD's at scheduled days and times, get your place set up for overnights with them, stop just dropping in like everything is normal.
I will budget my self for household and DD's with one of your paychecks (25%) and mine, and you can do what you want with the other" I want him to see what the affects will be if we divorce, I want him to realize that we can not be "best friends", and his life will change. That his house will no longer be his house. I am afraid he will say "Lets do it"...but at least it will get him off the fence.

Your WW had nothing more to offer...it wasn't a good time for her to talk because of OM's presence. Geee, I feel so sorry for her !!! Let her have it and let the OB have to deal with her weeping and anger. Let him see that she is not completely done with you. Let him start badgering her about her feelings for you. Can't you see it.

OB: What are you crying about
WW: Nothing, leave me alone you don't understand
OB: Well it's obvious you still have feeling for
your HUSBAND. How can you do this?
WW: What do you mean how can I do this? Like
your not doing the same crap to your WIFE.
OB: yeah well t least she isn't an emotional
lunatic like you.
WW F***off

Let them lie in the crap they have created. Take a deep breath and File the papers. I am right behind you. I will not let you fall.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I want him to see what the affects will be if we divorce, I want him to realize that we can not be "best friends", and his life will change. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Homer, I think you are on the right track here. My experience is that this is the absolute #1 best way to speed up the whole WS experience ~ whatever direction they choose to go.

Give them what they think they want. Because they either 1)really want it and then you will have your answer, or 2)they really DON'T want it, and then you will have your answer.

It worked for me. As soon as I began complying, even SUPPORTING my FWH's wishes, he started coming back to me. As long as he was pushing and I was pulling, I was losing (and he was too, as it just kept him in the fog longer).

Hang in there, Homer. You are doing great, even though it probably doesn't feel like it to you! You have to go through the fire to come out on the other side, stronger than before. Remember, above all things, that this is a marathon, whether you rebuild your M or you do Plan D. Please don't get caught up on one conversation, one comment, one day. EVEN IF you H thinks he wants Plan D, many couples still reconcile. It truly is not over for you for a long time, OK? Try to look at the big picture. Did you ever read my last post to you on your other thread? I replied after tqt, but I don't know if you saw it.

Anyway, keep posting both of you!

Spidey

Ok, you guys... I'm going to try one more time to explain where I'm coming from.
Can you take it one more time?

Everything you've been saying I agree with... UNTIL I introduce the "peculiarities" of my WW and the history of this horrid thing. I do understand the principles... I do understand that just because something feels intuitive doesn't mean it's the right approach. Got all that.

A couple things that it seems you haven't recognized (and one of the things that makes my situation a little bit different than many (most?))....

In months, there really has been ZERO communication between my WW and I about anything more significant than a @#%^& cable bill.
She RARELY, for better or worse (forget that, I know the answer), in the history of our M, volunteered anything -- emotionally -- that was very "significant." She's an extremely "closed-up" person... can't think of the right word at the moment. And that's only gotten worse since she left. IOW, I can Plan B 'til I'm dead, and she won't volunteer anything -- no matter which direction she's going/gone.

SOME people, sad to say, and sadder to say my WW is one of them, you just HAVE to coax things out of them.

Quoting both of you...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Give them what they think they want. Because they either 1)really want it and then you will have your answer, or 2)they really DON'T want it, and then you will have your answer.

I want him to see what the affects will be if we divorce, I want him to realize that we can not be "best friends", and his life will change. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't you see? She's HAD what she supposedly wanted. I already gave that to her/she took it. Five months ago.
She's already seen the affects if we divorce. She knows we can't be friends. She knows her life has ALREADY changed. She's experienced it.

That didn't do the trick, in my case. And the argument "she needs more time..." doesn't work for ME.

So, as lousy as my Plan B was --- actually I don't think it was that bad, all things considered --- I think it was MONTHS too LATE, but...


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can file and set boundaries, and it may persuade her to take a good look at herself...

Let her have it and let the OB have to deal with her weeping and anger. Let him see that she is not completely done with you. Let him start badgering her about her feelings for you.

Let them lie in the crap they have created.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By "forcing" the issue... I will be setting boundaries, in a sense. I will be saying, in effect: "I'm done. Now please finish what you started. It's DIVORCE time. Reality will set in. EVEN if she doesn't do anything, reality will set in.

The OB can deal with her turmoil/anger/whatever, just like you said. He can watch as she deals with things... when there's no more excuses... no more bullsh!t... he'll have a front-row seat. If *I* file (and I may still have to...), then: 1) she gets to play the victim, which she is not only VERY good at, but I believe MAY be what she's waiting for, and 2) OB gets to be there to comfort the poor victim... and help her launch a counter-attack, feed her vindictiveness, etc.

SHE can start the D process with OB's arms around her, and she'll have the full, wonderful experience... I'm D'ing my husband for the man who has his arms around me... is this what I REALLY WANT?

Ok, for the last time.... alright, maybe NEXT-to-last time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ...

In my case, Plan B... "sort of" worked. Why/how? Because I'm stronger now than I was when she left. I'm not sure if I CAN/COULD/SHOULD take her back even if she came crawling to the door begging to come home. So, in that sense, it worked: Hey, I don't want her anymore!

I believe that it did NOT work, because I believe that WW would still like to turn the clock back 15 months. I believe that she is terrified of what she's done -- to herself, to me, to our M -- and terrified of what the future holds for her.
I ALSO believe that she's too weak for Plan B to work. Plan B requires WS to wake up and show up... in some form or another... and some people are not strong enough to do that, no matter what their heart/brain tells them.

My "Plan F" ("Force" the issue) is going to be short. 2-3 weeks, if need be. Consider it an experiment... and when it "fails," I will file.

Anyone still there?

If you reread what you posted it seems as if you already know what you need to do. You don't need us to convince you of any other thing.

But even so I am going to 2x4 you. Please forgive me now.

You said she has always been a "closed" person. So is my WH and guess what...that is never ever going to change. It is the reality of their family of origin. Question is...can you handle that? Do you want to continue living that? You are giving her behavior an excuse. "AHH, she isn't likely to be forthright because that's just who she is, so I need to force her to spill her guts" OK I get it...and knowing what I know about your personality I can only guess it would be painful to watch the two of you. I used to call my WH the "cardboard man", because sometimes you couldn't tell if he was alive or not. Sometimes inaction is the biggest message any of us can get....we just choose to ignore the obvious. But "forcing" the issue with these types of people does only one thing...it makes them withdraw even more. That is what will happen...you will be hurt deeply and you will be filing in 2 weeks. I so do not want you to go through that again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I believe that she is terrified of what she's done -- to herself, to me, to our M -- and terrified of what the future holds for her.
I ALSO believe that she's too weak for Plan B to work. Plan B requires WS to wake up and show up... in some form or another... and some people are not strong enough to do that, no matter what their heart/brain tells them.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Note this please " I BELIEVE......", guess what ...you have NO IDEA what she is thinking...you have already admitted that she is closed. Don't pretend to have even the slightest idea because in reality she may be 100% completely OK with what she has done, what she has to look forward to, she may have already decided divorce is her best option. She may be sorry that she hurt you. But there is one thing that always made my WH mad, and that was when I tried to explain his own feelings. When I tried to interpret his next move. I have learned in the last few months that I am not very good at it, and I need to stop. It isn't helping and it isn't healthy. You think you are the one that is going to "wake her up?". It isn't your job. I always thought when I yelled and screamed at my husband it would wake him up to all the pain his silence and stonewalling caused me. I thought I could stir something in him...get a response so I could at least know he heard me. It never, ever,ever ever, worked. It just pushed him in the direction I didn't want him to go and guess what...he had an EA. He ran from me.

Don't get me wrong..I understand you wanting to do this. I am just saying do what you need to do, just be prepared. And if things head south..time to practice the letting go. You can tell me that you already have all you want...guess what...you haven't. Neither have I.

You said you haven't had much communication during this whole thing...probably not much during your entire marriage. What type of response did you get in the past when you forced the issue? It will always be the same until she gets some therapy.

I don't want to file either tqt but not sure either of us have any better options. Please understand that I say these things not to anger you...frustrate you...but perhaps to give you another way of looking at things. But of course it all boils down to doing what is right for ourselves when it is right for us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you reread what you posted it seems as if you already know what you need to do. You don't need us to convince you of any other thing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm pretty comfortable that I know what I need to do. Down the final stretch, I just need to be me -- haven't been able to be that for a while now. And I know it sounds like I'm trying to convince you... someone... anyone?!? But, it's more thinking out loud, going thru the rationale, etc. in my head...
At the same time, you and Spidey have been so supportive, so helpful... that I DO care... I DO want you to understand what I'm thinking, and the reasons I'm thinking it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You said she has always been a "closed" person. So is my WH and guess what...that is never ever going to change. It is the reality of their family of origin. Question is...can you handle that? Do you want to continue living that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's funny you said that, because I almost wrote a quick follow-up post just to say:

And because she's that way, and always has been... that's been a big "item" in the "Want Her/Don't Want Her" analysis....


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I used to call my WH the "cardboard man", because sometimes you couldn't tell if he was alive or not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uh-oh... I've used the expression "cardboard cutout babe"...


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But "forcing" the issue with these types of people does only one thing...it makes them withdraw even more. That is what will happen...you will be hurt deeply and you will be filing in 2 weeks. I so do not want you to go through that again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I agree. BUT! I think "forcing" was a bad word to use. "Coaxing" might be better... maybe it's some finely-tuned technique with no name that I've developed over the years, out of necessity.............
But you know, the few times in the last couple months that I've "talked" with her, I could tell that she has something to say -- she just can't choke it up.

And I know I'll probably get nothing... or hear things that will hurt (there's nothing I haven't heard already). It's just something that I have to do. Maybe some sick part of me wants to punish her, because I know it's going to be painful in some way for her to initiate the D. Maybe it's some psychotic, passive-aggressive thing... hey, I'm just as screwed-up as anyone else, who knows...

MORE likely, I THINK... I think her reaction/behavior through the process (even without many words spoken!) will tell me something... something that I will recognize as meaning what? I don't know. But maybe I need something from her -- even if I have to do my damndest just to surmise whatever it is -- before ending it forever.
I know I've said that 200 times, and I'm just as bored with it as anyone else...

There is also a part of me that is saying "Grow up! Please do ONE thing right in all of this. Assume responsibility for your actions, instead of running away from everything." (Note: WW's brother has also, as of December anyway, virtually abandoned HIS wife of 15 years, and is living in some altered state of reality. There's a LOT of STUFF underneath all of this...)


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Note this please " I BELIEVE......", guess what ...you have NO IDEA what she is thinking...you have already admitted that she is closed. Don't pretend to have even the slightest idea because in reality she may be 100% completely OK with what she has done, what she has to look forward to, she may have already decided divorce is her best option. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True, but I wasn't just guessing! I was doing the best I could, again surmising, based on the things she HAS said, has NOT said, little behaviors/actions here and there... and having spent 25 years with someone, you get to a point where you can put little pieces together... don't you think?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You think you are the one that is going to "wake her up?". It isn't your job. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I don't think that. I think there's a chance she's more awake right now than she's been in 1-2 years. Maybe AS awake as she ever will be. She just doesn't know how to deal with what she sees... at least that's part of my theory.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It will always be the same until she gets some therapy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No arguments there. She's admitted -- again, without actually saying it!!! --- that she needs to talk to someone.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Please understand that I say these things not to anger you...frustrate you...but perhaps to give you another way of looking at things. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do understand... and you did give me another way of looking at things.
And I DO, DO, DO appreciate it... and it DOES help immensely. Thank you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

tqt and Spidey-

I have a couple of questions.

First of all.....I've actually accumulated dust waiting on tqt to pick me up....and he ran off to Palm Springs instead of coming to get me <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> .

Spidey, you training with Penny??? How about throwing some of your excellent advice my direction....LMAO, I would really like it, but don't get too discouraged if I don't actually take your advice, as I seem to have a penchant for screwing myself over.

You two going back and forth is the funniest thing ever, you act like some old married couple, you crack me up!!!!!!

Okay, that's really all I had to say.....I'm going to go get the pledge and dust myself now.

-Caren

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First of all.....I've actually accumulated dust waiting on tqt to pick me up....and he ran off to Palm Springs instead of coming to get me .</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, whoa! Wanna know what happened??
I FINALLY get to Ohio early Saturday morning, and I'm looking around for a sign that says "Caren's Place" .... and all of a sudden I hear this HORN blasting, echoing ALL over the place, and I'm going "WTH???" and then... this WICKED smell of... it was... ok, I know this sounds weird, but... it smelled like a mixture of burning rubber and pancakes(!!!?!?!), and I just said "Oh Man... Palm Springs here we go, baby!"

Seriously, that's a true story. So where were YOU when all this was going on, HUH?!?!?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You two going back and forth is the funniest thing ever, you act like some old married couple, you crack me up!!!!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We do fight pretty well, don't we? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Don't tell anyone, but I think she's not happy with me....

(ps. she hasn't figured out that I only bicker with people for whom I have enormous respect <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

LMAO tqt....that burning rubber and pancake comment was low LMFAO (Good but low)

You behave yourself!!!

-Caren

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LMAO tqt....that burning rubber and pancake comment was low LMFAO (Good but low)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, what really got me confused was that -- normally -- the Burning Rubber 'n' Pancake scent is tempered with bacon and/or sausage, neither one of which was apparent to ME, anyway.

It's very disconcerting when you're in the midst of it all...

But more importantly....
I admit I'm a couple days behind on your post... and I hope you're doing well, Caren... as "well" as can be, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LOL, there was sausage, did I forget to mention the sausage?? Sheesh, such a pertinent detail too.

Okay, this stupid site makes me login every 3 seconds, it's really, really annoying....I just posted to you and then it's like "Oh...we're sorry you're not logged in" Arrrrgh, it could at least save the post when it does that....it really makes me wanna snap!!! (Doesn't everything?!)

Okay, well seeing as how you just bumped my thread from the number one position to number two by replying to your own thread (You selfish man you..LMAO) your sorry butt better be over there replying to me!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-Caren

First ~ certainly, tqt, if I was upset with you, you would be most sure of it! I have just been very busy lately. With my own stuff. And in a way that is still almost unthinkable to me . . . it is NOT A-related stuff! Truly remarkable. Just normal, everyday stuff that regular people deal with. Splendid!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> you act like some old married couple </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Second ~ did she just call me OLD??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> That crazy young whipper-snapper!

You know, a year ago, when I posted on these boards, I was SOOO concerned about everybody liking me. Just like I was in my real life. And whenever there was conflict here, like a board-war, I would get very uncomfortable. Especially if it was between two people I really liked (once it was between Suzet and MelodyLane, and I was very distraught, they both have helped me so much).

Then Pep told me how SHE used to feel that way, but now she realizes that differences of opinion are not just OK, they are GREAT. How else can an idea be fully explored, if everyone just agrees with everything? Challenging someone's thoughts/feelings is really why we are all here. Isn't it? So, I really try and call-em like I see-em now, and not worry so much about if people like me or not.

Anyway, I still hold my position, tqt, that you should be filing for D if you can't stay in Plan B. Your two options are: staying M'd, getting D'd. Both of them should be a conscious, positive decision. Meaning, you should CHOOSE, on PURPOSE, one or the other. Thinking you want a D, then trying to pressure your WW to do the dirty work, is really not a good idea. First off, you can't MAKE her do it. If you could MAKE her do anything, me thinks you would have already MADE her end the A and move back home. Second, because this important decision should be something that YOU are in charge of, IMO. If you don't want to be in charge of it, or OWN it (as Oprah would say), then it is probably not time for YOU to do it.

Caren, yes, I have been training with Penny. She offers classes on her SYMC site for a nominal charge (free for the moderators! Yay!). I would love to have an intelligent dialogue about your sitch. I just read bits and pieces, because of my time issue. I have totally missed the pancakes, sausage, and burning rubber thingie. I do know you are living apart, he is acting typically WS-ish by using kids and other crap against you to get his way with Plan B. And even using that reverse: "Who have YOU been out with? Are you seeing another man?" Good grief.

Honestly, once you get the hang of the fogese thing, it becomes almost comical. Just get your popcorn and sit back and watch the show. Then come here and post and say, "He DID say that to me! WTH? Are they ALL the SAME?"

And we will all nod our heads knowingly and say, "Yep, creepy, ain't it?"

Hang in there. You have what this whole process takes ~ a sense of humor, and belief in the Lord. Because every single recovery that happens here, is a miracle. Every single one of us in recovery saw so many reasons why recovery wasn't possible, even though we wanted it so badly.

You just work on you, keep posting/venting, following the excellent advice you are given on your threads, and one way or the other ~ it will all start improving. Your Personal Recovery is KEY to the possible recovery of your M. Many people think they can skip this step (not you tqt, I have other posters in mind), but it is the KEY. You can't skip the KEY, for crying out loud! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Anyway, I just discovered that I burned a round spot on my BRAND NEW DESK, from burning a candle in here yesterday. I am bummed, and now I have to go tell my H. Ugh. I should have put it on a coaster! Grrrrrrr

Spidey

Warning: long post

Pursuant to Plan F (Force the Issue), I talked with my WW/STBXW last night for about 45 minutes.

The highlights....

She sounded happy to hear from me.

She was watching "Sex and the City" -- you know, the "Adultery is Fun, Adultery is Cool" show...

smalltalk

Me: so what have you done to pursue your dreams, and your happiness, and terminate our M?

WW: ummm, I haven't filed the paperwork yet

Me: why not?

WW: because I haven't

Me: why not? last time it was because you hadn't had time.

WW: yeah, well, I haven't gone down... or found somebody to write it up, or whatever

Me: I don't understand... is it not important to you?

WW: Is it important to me? babble... it's more important to you than it is to me, obviously

Me: It is kind of strange trying to go about your life as a married person, but you don't have a spouse living with you, and your spouse is living and sleeping with somebody else...

WW: yeah..

Me: it's strange to me anyway... I guess it doesn't bother you...

WW: yeah it bothers me

Me: so then what is it you're waiting for... you moved... I think it was 5 months ago today... and you've done nothing.
Please tell me the truth.

WW: 'cuz I'm not sure how to do it... that's why

Me: but you said that 4 months ago

WW: uh-huh

Me: all I'm asking for is the truth... and that can't be it -- it just doesn't make any sense

WW: well you know more about it than I do, obviously
I haven't found an attorney... it's a legal action in this state... well, I guess it is everywhere

(hey, she figured THAT much out.. WTF?!?!?)

WW: and making a decision... I'm really good at that, as you know

Me: what kind of decision?

WW: a decision

Me: what kind of decision?

WW: that it's absolutely over

silence

Me: well, nobody would have a clue that you were in decision-making mode, would they

WW: no

Me: what are trying to decide?

WW: what?

Me: what are you trying to decide?

WW: I guess it's the finality part of it

Me: that's funny, I just was reading, a couple days ago, about how most M's recover from this stuff

WW: how most M's DO?

Me: yes. a lot of them not only recover, but go on to be much better M's, but...

WW: I'm not sure how that would happen... I'm not sure how that would happen on my part, and I sure as hell don't know how that would happen on your part

Me: I'm not sure what you mean

WW: that it would be so much better... I don't know... I've thought about it... and I don't see all negatives about every single thing we did... for a long time I thought that way

Me: well then what would be the decision that you said you didn't make?
you made a decision... a year ago, didn't you?


I asked about the "secrecy" factor... at her work....

WW: I said before, I've never been a person to run around and tell everyone...
I explained it to 2 or 3 people...
what should I do, go around and tell people what not to do... counsel them on what not to do?


Me: well, the important thing is that you're happy now, right?

WW: (silence)... yeah!

Me: and that's why I don't understand why you haven't done anything. You left 5 months ago because you weren't happy -- why would you want to stay married if you weren't happy, and have found someone else that you're happy with -- why wouldn't you just fill out a couple simple forms and get it over with?

WW: cuz I'm not good at that stuff like you are

Me: you're not good at filling out forms?

WW: no, I'm not. and like I told you before, I'm embarrassed about the whole thing

Me: still?

WW: yeah... how will I ever not be embarrassed about this whole thing?

Me: how are you going to resolve that?

WW: I don't know
silence...
I'm not sure exactly how that ever goes away, or if it does... I don't think it ever will...
kind of like always being sad that somebody died... it never stops happening

Me: one thing that sticks in my mind is the thought that if it's a real R...and good... and honest... you want to climb on the roof and scream it out... you don't want to hide it

silence...

more silence...

Me: just giving you commentary... worthless commentary....
(not getting very far, so change of subject)
how are the dogs?
friendly chat about dogs...

Me: so... go on...

silence...

Me: this is your opportunity to...

WW: how was your trip?

smalltalk...


Me: when are the two of you going to Fla?

WW: a week from wednesday
(This gets my skin crawling...)

Me: well, I hope the 3 of you have a wonderful time... and in the meantime, what are you doing about ending our M?

WW: (defensive/worked-up/voice raised) ok, well I'll get right on that and do everything this weekend!

Me: and why haven't you done it?

WW: because I... haven't had the courage to talk to somebody about it... that's why

Me: tell me why?

WW: because I'm embarrassed about it... I told you that before... the more I say it, the easier it is to say how embarrassed and horrible I feel

Me: you're embarrassed to talk to a lawyer, or go down to the courthouse... because you're getting a D?

WW: yeah... it's the failure thing

Me: failure?

WW: yeah.

Me: well, we tried everything...right?

silence

WW: no we didn't try everything

silence

Me: well, nobody else has to know that... just you and me... right?

silence

WW: yeah

silence

Me: let me ask you a question... you... you're not volunteering much...
So, let me ask you a question... sometimes in situations like this... sometimes people get in situations like this and can't find a way out... and would like to get out, if they knew how

WW: uh huh

Me: do you feel that way at all... ever?

WW: yeah, certainly I do

Me: can you talk about it?

WW: not with you I'm not talking about it

Me: what do you mean?

WW: certainly there's times I think that... you know... what the hell am I doing, why did I do what I did...
you're not such a horrible rotten person... you did so many nice things... yeah

silence

WW: I don't think that way every day, every minute of my life

Me: well I would think it would be hard to live... if you did...

WW: yeah... (silence)... yeah...

Me: would there be any connection between what you said and the fact that you've done nothing to end everything officially?

WW: no I think part of it is that I'm just afraid to do it, don't know how to do it, not sure who to talk to about it...
I'm not going to pay that guy I spoke to before 350 bucks an hour to write some piece of paper up...

Me: that was several months ago

WW: yeah

silence

Me: well, there are some decisions that I'm in the process of making...it's really hard to do anything while we're still married

WW: ok

(discussion about house)

she changes subject to something trivial

Me: well this is your chance to explain...

WW: what am I supposed to explain? how horrible I feel...how ****ty I feel?

I ask her about her "stepson"

Me: don't you know that the reason our M fell apart is because

WW: because I hold everything and don't talk and don't deal with things and...

silence

Me: are you this open and honest with your... your new man?

silence...

WW: yeah... occasionally...

Me: I know you well enough to know that when you say 'occasionally' you might mean 'never'

silence...

I change the subject back to Florida.
I "got out of her" that...
WW does NOT want OM to go, but he is!!
It's HIS idea to go (he's only going for a couple days, not the whole week)... WW does NOT feel comfortable with it... but she CAN'T TELL OM she'd prefer him NOT to go!

There's the situation in a nutshell... her WEAKNESS and INABILITY to DEAL with reality and get herself out of the hole she dug herself into... and pressure from OM...

I also told her that she did NOT love this guy. She did not respond.

So where does this put me.... not sure... I think I just have to accept the fact that my WW is not capable of loving, or being loved... that she's done too much damage to herself, me, our marriage...

She's sucking everything in... not dealing with anything... and someday she's going to implode.

I did tell her that the only reason we were having the conversation was because I cared about her. She said she knew that.

Guess my Plan F is working, in some way or another. She doesn't want a D -- but she also doesn't want to deal with the mess she's made.

I'm just really sad for her, sad for me... sad for us.

tqt, I'm glad you had the conversation with her. You seem to have gotten SOME information that you wanted. My FWH thought there was NO WAY a M could recover from what we had done to ours, also. That is a pretty typical WS thing.

Also, sounds like her time to herself, with your silence, has given her time to reflect on the fact that she had done a bit of history re-writing without realizing it. That is also a pretty typical WS thing.

Perhaps your insticts are "on" about forcing this issue with her. Maybe looking it all in the face, and having to act on it, will get her wheels turning even more.

Honestly, if she cannot even tell someone that she is unhappy with them yet, or doesn't want them to be with her, you don't want her back right now anyway, IMO. If she can't grow up, pull herself together, and start speaking for herself, your recovered M will be just as vulnerable as your pre-A M. And we don't want that.

At this point in her life, this is where she needs to be, apparently. You cannot save her from herself. If she is unable/unwilling to change at all, at this most pivotal time in her life, then you best chance is to move forward without her. And remember, this doesn't mean it is over for forever. Remember that wedding I went to a few weeks ago? They were D'd and angry for 3 years, started dating again, then moved here to Idaho and lived together for 5.5 years. And finally remarried. If it is meant to be, it will happen, all on its own.

I think you did two important things with your call: 1)you let her know that you have some hope, that you still care about her, and 2)that you have waited patiently for her to find her "happiness," and you are assuming she has since she hasn't come back home to you, and you now also want to move on ~ as she has.

The only thing that stuck out to me, that I think you should avoid in the future, is telling her what her feelings are ~ i.e., telling her she doesn't love the OM. In WS land, that is a big no-no. Oftentimes, it makes them feel that love EVEN MORE. It might not have with her, if she is becoming truly disenchanted with OM, BUT . . . not a good habit to be in in ANY relationship. People feel what they feel, and it is a DJ and a LB to TELL them that they DON'T.

I think what your WW is realizing, is that it wasn't YOU that made her unhappy. I think she is beginning to come to the realization that the OM can't MAKE her happy. She is "getting" that the unhappiness lies within ~ herself. That is scary stuff. I know you have sympathy for her. BUT, she is a grown woman. She has insurance, a telephone book, a phone, and she has the power to seek help for herself. Until she does that, she is not able to participate in a recovery process for your M.

Because if you can't look at yourself objectively, honestly (BRUTALLY honest), and be willing to SEE what is there, not just what you WISH was there, it is all useless, IMO. Recovery is NOT just both people deciding that they love each other again, and want to put forth their best effort to make things work. That is about 50%. ALL THE REST is odds and ends ~ trust, honesty, responsibility, communication, partnership. To get through the last 50%, you need a partner who has faced their OWN issues, to some degree or another.

So, how long do you wait without hearing anything about Plan D? When do you send out another "enforcer" phone call for Plan F? Doesn't sound to me that she is too inclined to do anything, because of her "embarassment." She will not feel better about any of that, until she does SOMEthing to make it right, even if that means setting you free while she is stuck and mired in her own muck.

Take some deep breaths, go workout, and please know that you will not feel this way for forever. As she said, you will always have a sadness about it, but it does fade with time. And it looks a lot different. And you are at a place in your life where you CAN find happiness somewhere. You HAVE done the hard work of reaching out for assistance, and gaining understanding, and really looking at the whole thing for what it IS/WAS, not just what you WANTED it to be. You know how to live with your eyes WIDE OPEN. She is still sitting in a corner, with them closed, hoping everything will just go away. Like my kids do when they get into trouble and are not sure what to do about it.

*sigh*

Growing up is hard work. I had to do it during H's A, so I know first-hand. I had to look at lots of stuff I didn't want to, and accept LOTS of stuff I REALLY didn't want to. But for me, the alternative, was worse ~ losing my M. It is a decision each of us must make on our own. I just want to tell you, though ~ there is a chance your WW could still surprise you, surprise herSELF. All of this stuff is a powerful motivator for growth and change. Probably THE MOST powerful motivator she will ever have in her life. If this doesn't do it, I don't know what will.

And you deserve to be in a R with a mature, adult woman ~ not a little girl who cannot even open her eyes to the monsters she herself has created.

Spidey

Wow, Spidey...
I'm on my way out the door, and had to fly thru your post for right now -- and like I said -- wow...

Will read and re-read later, and post my thoughts.

Thanks Spidey... you are great... you really are <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Spidey-

You give the best advice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> tqt, I thought it sounded like your wife may not be so certain that she wants to end it.....that's what I got out of it, yeah I think she has a ways to go, but I still think it's a little progress.

Spidey, what do you need to know about my story? I, of course, will not put it here on tqt's post, don't want to thread jack my buddy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Spidey, may I ask how long it was between your Plan B and reconciliation...or when you came out of Plan B to reconcile. I am interested to know. Alot of these plan B's go on for what I think are extended amounts of time. I do not feel that mine will be that long, but ya never know.

tqt, you are such a great guy, a lesser man would have given up already, you are going to make some woman, be it WW or someone else, VERY happy.

-Caren

So...

this entire weekend I've been preoccupied with one very difficult question: do I, or do I not, want her back?

That question, and my INability to find within me an answer that I can live with comfortably for more than five minutes, is the newest challenge...

I DO know that I SHOULD not want her back.... for so many different reasons... among them some of the things you mentioned, Spidey.

I feel like I've "progressed"... detached... "moved on" a LOT. I guess the pedestal has been torn down, and the "falling out of love" process is, and has been, happening.

The common sense part of me kicks in once in a while <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , and tells me that what I'm really dealing with (in my indecisiveness) is, in no particular order...

-- fear of the future, the unknowns of it all
-- regret over losing what I thought was and wanted to be
-- some lingering addiction to a person I've been with since I was 20 years old
-- fear of being alone, wondering when/how I'll find another person to spend my life with
-- fear of failure

So... it looks like fear and regret may be keeping me from making the decision -- The Decision -- that I don't want her back.


And then there's this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and she has the power to seek help for herself. Until she does that, she is not able to participate in a recovery process for your M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ALL THE REST is odds and ends ~ trust, honesty, responsibility, communication, partnership.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you need a partner who has faced their OWN issues, to some degree or another.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and the diagnosis by IC#1... Depression

and the diagnosis by our MC... Adjustment Disorder w/ Depression (when I first saw the dx on the insurance form, I asked MC (WW was there): "adjustment to what?" And he cut me off REAL fast and said "marriage!" (ie. he didn't want to "go there...")

and the 2nd-hand "diagnosis" by a psychiatrist-friend of my Mothers... Narcissism... "get away from her as fast as you can... she will never change..."

and the 2nd-hand "diagnosis" by a therapist friend of my parents, who more-or-less specialized in Narcissistic Personality Disorder..."get away from her as fast as you can... she will never change..."

and the fact that, when reading over the MB EN's questionaires, I realized for the first time -- or at least it validated things that I've felt for a long time, in some ways for 20 years --- that my WW was not really meeting... ANY... of my EN's... other than physical appearance (or whatever term is used).


So why?!? would I want her back... in fact, why didn't I leave our M a long time ago...

Maybe there's something wrong with me (I'm sure there is, but whatever it is I'm confident it's "fixable"...), but I never doubted that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her... I never doubted, after D-Day and through the hellish aftermath... that I wanted to save my marriage. I do love her... I always did love her intensely... I never thought we had any problems that couldn't be fixed...

I'm a giver... that's me. It makes me happy to give... I'm just a bit! disappointed that all my giving over so much of my life -- and hers -- was returned with the ultimate take... I feel very betrayed. Of course. (I know... most of us here feel the very same thing.)

I made a commitment to her in 1983 that I intended -- wanted -- to keep. As I helped my wife sprinkle her father's ashes into the lake near his home, I promised him that I would always take care of his daughter. And I'm angry that it looks like I'm going to have to break that promise... and I didn't have any say in any of this.

And she's still not happy. In other words, she's destroyed everything... for nothing... but pain.
I'm perfectly capable of healing, and will, I'm sure, end up being happier than I've been in a long, long time.
She, on the other hand, is not capable of doing that on her own.

So... it feels like my "mission" at this point is to encourage her to get some help. She needs to talk to someone. And as long as I still care, I will do whatever I can to push her in that direction.

In the meantime... my head and my heart have some issues to work out....

Wow, after all that thinking, you are going to need a Tylenol! Holy cow. I understand what you are saying, and I don't envy where you are.

I guess my first response is that ~ perhaps you WANT the M IF she can do the work required to make it happen. BUT, since you have a strong feeling about her ability to do that, perhaps you are feeling despair that you DON'T think she is up to the task.

If she is NOT up to the task, perhaps you have decided that this M is NOT one you want to recover ~ IF it means getting the exact same M and W back.

Which, of course (in my thinking here, not necessarily your thinking), puts the "decision" back in her hands. Is she gonna grow up and do something for herself and your M ~ is she going to be a miracle? Or is she going to continue to be pathetic, have no inclination whatsoever to help either straighten herself out, OR assist you in moving forward in your life by letting you go.

Perhaps what you can't (won't) let go of is the HOPE that she is going to be motivated to create something fantastic for herself ~ and you would be a part of that. Because it sounds to me like you have let go of the WW she is now. It sounds to me that as she is, you would just as soon let her go, than give it another go.

BUT, I could be way off base. I think it might have happened ONCE before, a long time ago. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Anyway, love is a strange thing. She didn't meet your EN's for years. Why didn't you leave? You love(d) her. Why do you have a hard time letting go now? Hope? Love? Slight residual addiction? The other benefit of Plan B, is that it does a GREAT job of breaking the addiction.

Maybe all you need is a few more weeks in Plan B. Honestly, what does a few more weeks mean in the Grand Scheme of Things? Not much, IMO. What I know for sure, tqt, is that you want to be making decisions NOW that you will NOT regret in 1 year, 5 years, 10 years in the future.

Hang in there. Keep posting.

Spidey