</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you know your wife's "soft spot?" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not trying to be flippant here, but I bet she doesn't know herself. Her walls are very thick.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can you guess what kind of chance she would have extended to you if the roles were reversed?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't answer that, because I can't even come close to imagining that scenario!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you believe you had something truly special?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe we were good for each other. Lots of people always commented on what a great couple we were. We did make a helluva team when we worked on something together, which was often. And, we were "best friends" for almost 25 years.

Ouch.

Can I say that we had something truly special? I'm sure we both felt that way on and off through our M - she even told me that. But I don't know for sure anymore. I want to say "yes" and I want to say "no" all at the same time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It will be interesting to see if she responds to your email. I'm telling you, she might just shock the [censored] out of you one of these days</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All it'll take to shock the [censored] out of me will be for her to respond.

Seriously...at this point, how many different reasons could she have to not respond?

Hey there! What's been going on this weekend for you? We were supposed to go to another Scout camping trip, but I REALLY didn't want to go. H worked all last weekend, the weekend before was Scout camping, and next weekend we are having a garage sale. It seemed like so much work, and no fun!

The Scout campouts are fun, BUT, this one we were supposed to leave at 10:30 Saturday morning, and we weren't going to get home until 5 or 6 Sunday afternoon! Then, since it is all cold and wet, we have to set up the tent here to dry it, lay out all the sleeping bags to dry them. Plus, we would have had to take all that food, just for one night. *sigh*

OK, I'm done complaining. I was very proud of myself, though. I didn't stuff my feelings or numb them. I am so excited I finally made the connection between my feelings and my eating. And drinking alcohol! I was seriously concerned that I needed to go to AA or something. I wasn't drinking like a fifth of whiskey or anything, but I would drink 2-3 drinks, sometimes several times each week. Regularly. That can be a drinking problem too.

Come to find out, it was a way I was stuffing my feelings. And I didn't even REALIZE IT! Scary. Now, the urge to drink and sabotage my diet and exercise regimin is GONE. I don't crave it at all.

So, I finally timed my run the other morning. Since you probably know more than I do about this part of exercise, tell me what you think. 12-minute miles. Consistently. That was the time of my first mile, and my last (I would like to note that almost the entire last mile is on a slight uphill grade ~ so I was pushing it!). I am running approximately 3.3 miles, in 38 minutes. I should probably go to a measured track to get exact times. And I couldn't figure out how to use my exercise watch H got me for Christmas, so I just did it the old fashioned way ~ checked the time and all the turnarounds, and did mental math.

Then I came home and wrote down all my times and checked my math, because the mind can play tricks when you are breathing hard and fatigued. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I could probably do a 5K at this point! Especially with a little adrenaline and excitement thrown in there.

So anyway, we have had a pretty fun weekend, finally. I hope yours was good, too.

Keep us updated!

Spidey

Spidey! You did do a 5K (5K=3.1 miles)!

Let's see... you run 3.3 miles in 38 minutes... that sounds something like, ohhh... just a rough guess... 5.210526343 miles/hour... give or take?

I'm not a runner (and I couldn't do 3.3 miles in 38 minutes, unless it was by ambulance <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ), but that's a very respectable time!

You sound like you're really into it, which is WAY cool! I know running can be addicting, once you get into the groove. Why not enter a 5K race? Hang on a second... I'll find you one...

Oh [censored]! You missed the "No Frills Freeze Your Fanny 5K" (Lewiston, 2/5/05) !

Yikes! Forget the potatoes, Idaho's a running state now... check this out:

http://www.runningintheusa.com/ShowLinks.asp?LinkType=race&State=ID

I DO need more cardio stuff on my agenda (treadmill a few times/week, but nothing serious), so I'm kinda jealous....

Keep it up, Spidey... bet you'll be doing a 10K by next Fall... wanna bet? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just wanted to mention... you talked about the Scout trip... and I would've felt the same way... sorta like "oh, man... again, so soon? grumble grumble grumble...."

My weekend was... not that good. I'm hoping things will improve in the next couple hours, though, before it's officially over. For example, Meg Ryan could just drop in again, or...

Weekends are tough. Weekends are a glaring reminder of how... pretty much my entire life has been flipped upside down, turned inside out... I'm staring at a blank slate which represents the rest of my life, but... I wasn't really ready for this "opportunity." The best way I can describe it is that I'm just completely out of practice when it comes to thinking about no one but myself.

I've decided I want to sell the house... I don't need all the space, and I certainly don't need to spend half my life cutting grass/doing yard work.
I'm nervous about the arrival of Spring... and Summer... I didn't have either of those last year, as we were in the bowels of the D-day aftermath... the months of February '04 thru October '04 simply did not exist... nothing existed but the horror of it all, day after day after day...
But, I'm nervous now because her absence is going to be so much more pronounced this time around. It's all going to be crystal-clear... and so very strange without her.

Well... Plan F is working, and not working.

No word from her.

I just cannot fathom how she could not respond to that email. The only reason I can think of is that she's still so confused/scared/??

But it's working for me (actually Plan B/F is what it is, I guess), because not only am I clearly seeing how completely far-fetched it is to think that our marriage can be saved, but I'm also... in some way that I haven't figured out (but I'm not trying)... beginning not to care. It's been so long since I've seen her, that.. IF I see her again, it's going to be a very awkward event. I absolutely dread the thought of running into her somewhere...

It's NOT working because it looks like I'm going to have to end it myself. Just how unfair can life be?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Just how unfair can life be? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do know how you are feeling. I remember thinking that same thought about, say, 500,000 times after D-day, and even into recovery. But the good news, is that with time, that feeling DOES fade. Looking back, with that FABulous 20/20 vision, you will see the ways you have grown, benefited, see how much better your life is in so many ways, and you will realize that what you have gone through was a necessary "evil" in order to learn what you have learned. I truly believe this, tqt.

I used to get sooo angry, because I was still sooooo very hurt by everything, but I honestly couldn't regret any of it ~ because I don't know what other single event could have propelled me forward in my own personal growth (and for me, the growth of my M) so completely, so quickly.

But, it took me a while to detach from the pain and horror, and see beyond it. Give yourself about another year, and you will be just peachy! One year will march on no matter what, you might as well look forward to the end of it for some reason, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I know you are dreading spring/summer, and I understand why. But also leave room for the possibility that you will have many breakthroughs this year. You might be struck by the beauty of a tulip this spring, and all of a sudden realize that you are alive, it is spring, it is the time of new growth, the cycle of life. There is one lucky lady out there for you, tqt. And this time around, you have the tools to KNOW what your needs are, what her needs are, the Giver and the Taker, POJA, DJ's, AO's, etc. You have real TOOLS now to create something balanced, healthy, and prosperous. Even if that is with your WW, it will be more than you ever had before.

Thanks for the info on the racing! Can't believe I missed that one in Lewiston! I was halfway there two weeks ago with our last Scout trip. I could have just kept on driving! I think I will enter a 5K. Then, I want to start training for a 10K. So, that would be 6.2, eh? Definately gotta get my speed up, or I'm going to be putzing along for well over an hour! My goal to do the 10K is 10 minute miles. I think that is VERY respectable, especially if my last mile can be that fast. I have come to realize that the END of the workout is where I can gain the most benefits ~ but it hurts.

I know in the Spring/summer, there are lots of races here. We even have the Great Potato Race. We all have to run with a burlap bag of potatoes strapped to our backs! 20 pounds of potatoes, it's not easy! Just kidding. All my friends from Virginia think we are all growing potatoes in our front yards over here. Well, the ones who don't get my state confued with Iowa, Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, and call me in the summer sometimes afraid we are flooded. I patiently say, "We live in a high desert, one state away from the Pacific, we touch Canada, and we are in our 10th year of DROUGHT!"

Sheesh. It's like, Take a Geography Class! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Only kidding. My H laughs at me because I don't know where all the foreign countries are. If I haven't been there, I don't know! We lived in Germany for 2 years, and I've been to France, but all the other ones get confused.

ANYway, is WW gone this week to FL, then? What is your next step in Plan F? Are you going to plan on moving forward with the selling of the house? You need a handsome CONDO, that employs some other man to cut the grass, and keep up the pool, and CLEAN THE GUTTERS! So you can spend all your time lounging.

Spidey

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You might be struck by the beauty of a tulip this spring, and all of a sudden realize that you are alive, it is spring, it is the time of new growth, the cycle of life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spidey, is that just a nice way of saying... crank up the lawnmower? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is one lucky lady out there for you, tqt. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well THAT certainly jumps off the page...

if you happen to bump into her, would you have her give me a call?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ANYway, is WW gone this week to FL, then? What is your next step in Plan F? Are you going to plan on moving forward with the selling of the house? You need a handsome CONDO</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She leaves Wednesday. My next step is to call her... in about 5 minutes.
I spent the day analyzing the fact that she hasn't responded to the email....

The scenarios I've conjured up in my mind are really entertaining... but not very useful!

Funny you mentioned the condo thing... JUST this morning I started thinking about the townhouse/condo concept -- first time I ever even considered it.

More in a bit... have a phone call to make....

WELL??? Sheesh, how long does a stinkin' phone call take, anyway!!! It's been almost 12 hours.

The likely scenarios I've conjured up in my head: 1)she wasn't reachable, 2)she wasn't home (which is different than reachable!), 3)all she wanted to talk about were the dogs and the cable bill.

So, how are you feeling? I was thinking yesterday of the possible reasons she hadn't yet replied to you. If you sent it to her work email, then most likely she checks it regularly. That being the case, I was thinking yesterday (while stuck in major construction ~ I had some time) the only reason I could really come up with is that she is just still so focused on HER, in that selfish way WS's have, she just can't really see/understand how you are being affected.

She might intellectually, but her power of empathy, or compassion, is just buried under "What's in it for me." Meaning her, of course, not ME. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

OK, so I am posting with only about 2 sips of coffee in me. I'll do better later.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, so I am posting with only about 2 sips of coffee in me. I'll do better later.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and I'm posting with 1.5 sips... this is gonna be short <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Talked with WW for 20-25 minutes.

I'm so damn confused......

She supposedly replied to my email on Sunday morning. Just one of those 2 in 22,000,000 emails that goes off into space somewhere...never to be seen again... hmmm....

While we were talking, I asked her to send it again. She did... still haven't received it.

Then I asked her to read it to me.
She started reading it, and began crying immediately, and it took a while for her to get through it. The parts I could understand were something like "yes I need to move on, and I know you do too, and I feel terrible..."
But I didn't hear anything about divorce.

In our conversation, she didn't say anything about divorce.

Then, later in the conversation, she said she almost came over to the house Sunday.

What for, I asked? "To see what you're doing."

Well, this is all very screwed up.

And it gets worse...

Subject of Florida.... WHY didn't she talk with OB about NOT going? "I don't have the guts, that's why... just like I never had the guts to say what I want to say."

We were having a nice conversation... she was opening up a little... it was like she WANTED to be talking.... then I heard the dog bark, and a man's voice. OB had just arrived.

I asked her to ask him to leave so we could have a conversation... no response.... then I asked her to put OB on the phone so I could nicely ask him to leave, so I could have a conversation with my wife... no response...

Then I told her something like... well, I was enjoying our conversation, but I'm not talking with you when he's there. And hung up on her. Nicely.

Bottom line for right now: OB has my WW held hostage... and I'm actually quite serious.
That's my take on it -- that's how she sounds, how she talks, how she acts... what she does and doesn't do... I don't mean he has her tied up... but I guess she probably figures if she tells him to go to Hell... where he definitely belongs... that she'll have NOBODY.

She needs some help.

It's all very sick... all very sad... and I'm so very confused.

Well, honestly tqt, this is the effect I thought Plan B would have on her. The time and distance, really enables the WS mind to begin remembering the past as it REALLY was, NOT the way their brain rearranged it to rationalize/justify their actions. She is defogging. I know you think she is not longer foggy, but her brain might have needed some time and space to clear out.

She may be stuck in a horrible state of limbo, afraid to try to rebuild with you, afraid to stay with OB. So she will just sit there, stuck.

I truly believe that how people get themselves UNstuck, is when the pain of being where they are, is worse than the fear they have of going where they WANT to be.

IMO, you have done your part. You let her know you love her, that you believe you could rebuild if you both committed to the process and worked as a team. And you also let her know that you won't talk with her while OB is there, and I give you LOTS of BRAVO's for that. I know how tempting it is to try and create something, when you feel it is so close, even when it is hopeless. I fell into that trap a couple times myself. You didn't get any drama, you gave her a couple options, then you backed out. Perfect.

IF you still are open to reconcilliation, I sugggest waiting longer in your Plan B. Because it really still is Plan B. When you speak to her, you aren't LBing, you aren't meeting her needs really, you aren't creating tons of drama that hurts people. I don't think you should contact her every day, but if you give her some more time, she might just show up some Sunday afternoon and talk and talk and talk ~ with no OB involvement (because your home is private property, and if he doesn't leave when you ask him to [IF he was crazy enough to even show up!], then you would have to FORCE him to leave).

I know it is all confusing. And realize, that HER confusion is 100 times greater than yours! She isn't sure WHAT is going on in her head, her heart, her life.

So, if you can hold out a bit longer, I say try Plan B a bit longer. Maybe after a couple weeks, call her up again. OR, if you don't want to, go start the D process yourself. You are not a failure, nor a quitter. Everyone has their limits. You don't have to spend X amount of time in purgatory before you deserve happiness. I have heard that many men think in this way ~ because they feel it is manly behavior. You deserve to be happy, and not confused, and not lonely.

So, what are you thinking/feeling now?

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And realize, that HER confusion is 100 times greater than yours! She isn't sure WHAT is going on in her head, her heart, her life.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ya know, I have the hardest time understanding that. To the point of disbelief.
I'm more inclined to think she knows what is going on in her head -- but she can't "deal with it." In whatever way it needs to be dealt with... whatEVER it is.

But that's just me... having spent a gazillion hours in the middle of this mess.. so I know I'm the LAST person to know WTH is going on...

BUT! Geeeeesh! This is so huge... all this... I've "Plan F'd" her -- I've been at times not all that nice in Forcing the issue and making it clear that I'm OK with a D... so the fact that she's done nothing lends credence to what you say. What else can explain all the nonsensical behavior, words, etc... other than she's confused, in turmoil, whatever.

But it's been dragging on for SO LONG! It's getting BORING!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, what are you thinking/feeling now?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Obviously, I don't have a clue.

I was all over the map today. Made 10 or 12 round trips... not a fun day, but the end result is... numbness.

It's the things she says, the things she does not say... that keeps that little thread --- my hope, desire, willingness to keep thinking about us reconciling --- from breaking once and for all.

The more I hear her little hints (even if I have to dig them out of her) that she's still "messed up"... the harder it is for me to let go.

The more "messed up" I think she is -- from what she says/does (reality), and from what my stupid heart manufactures for me to feed whatever emotion I choose to feel at the moment (fantasy) --- the easier it is to want her, to forgive her, to hang on, to write all this off to a terrible ordeal that she's going thru, and... I'm the only one who is ready, willing, and able to help her through it.

We exchanged a few emails today. She supposedly sent her reply to my (ours/yours <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) "Plan F" letter/email about 20 times, to two different addresses, but I never got it. So the emails we exchanged were like "ok, did you get this one?" and "I don't know why you didn't get the one I sent...." Stupid stuff... but the bottom line is, I STILL have not received the reply she says she's TRIED to send... something's weird about all this. JUST popped into my head: she wrote a response to my Plan F email, and she's not sure what the hell she's thinking (as you say), and didn't have the nerve to send it.

OK... SO... in addition to the few stupid "debug the lost email" emails... I sent her one at around 2:30 this afternoon (about Florida)... and who cares, the rest of my life is on the same hard drive as this post is, so... here it is...

--------------------

STBXW,

On your way out the door, you said to me: "I'm not responsible for your feelings."

So you're not responsible for his feelings either, then.... right?

There's still time... for you to stand up for yourself, to do what's right and best for you.
Tell him you need the time to be with your Mom.... better yet, tell him you need the time to think. (And then TAKE the time... this week... in the sun... to think.)

If he doesn't respect that, then that's just one more reason for him NOT to go.

Just DO IT!! For YOURSELF.

ps. remember last year, how I didn't think I should go, and you had to talk me into it?


------------------------

Be nice... remember I'm still trying to figure out if I want this marriage....

But anyway, at 6:00 this evening, she replied:

"Thanks for the message. Guess you got the block taken off huh?"

This was the VERY last thing she did before leaving the office, because I immediately replied "No block here!" and it came back with an automatic "Out of the office until next week..." reply.

(she's suggesting I had her email blocked, which is why I never received THE email that she purportedly sent. And she KNOWS that's not the case... so... screwy stuff going on in her head)

Ok... this is getting stupid... and very dull. WHY am I wasting my life on this *!&@^# ??

I could be packing up the truck, picking up a very cute young lady in Ohio, and going to a garage sale in Idaho!
Sounds like a HELLUVA lot more fun than THIS crap.........................

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IF you still are open to reconcilliation</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Forgot to say this...

How can I figure out how open I am to reconciliation, if I have NO idea how SHE feels -- REALLY feels?

Does that make sense?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> How can I figure out how open I am to reconciliation, if I have NO idea how SHE feels -- REALLY feels? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, and no. I understand for a while now that your hope for reconcilliation has been tied to how you think she feels, BUT . . . I guess in my head I think that is akin to the successfulness of someone losing weight because their partner wants them to ~ it cannot be sustained.

If you only think you want to reconcile because SHE might be open to it, then I think you are holding on for the wrong reasons ~ fear, is my best guess.

Because, when she left, instead of D'ing her, you came here for support. So, several months ago, you still wanted to reconcile, even though all indicators were that she didn't. Because you still loved her, were still in love with her.

What you are feeling now could still be that. Or, it could be fear ~ fear of moving forward without her, fear of "losing," just fear of the unknown! This is scary stuff, even for a big strong guy!

I think it is NOBLE that you are willing to extend the effort when she is ready to try, BUT . . . is that what is best for YOU?

tqt, your WW has a long road ahead of her. This silliness with the email? WTH? Being that messed up takes TIME to unravel. And she hasn't even sought help yet! If ever. IMO, she has to be willing to do MUCH more than simply agree to come home at this point.

With this communication you are having with her, you are in danger of becoming addicted to said communication again. Go dark again. She is gone, just use this time to think about how long you are willing to wait, with your life on hold, for her to take her leisurely time realizing that she is too messed up and needs professional help.

D is NOT the end of the world, tqt. It is paper. You can be M'd again to her, IF she can do that hard work to earn that. I just don't see her moving in any direction. She is just fine, to be half miserable about you, half miserable about OM, just stringing everyone along.

Well, maybe OM is happy only having part of her (well, isn't that how the R started? Why should he expect more?), but you ARE NOT. Are you?

In your WW's mind, she probably thinks her life would be just perfect if she could combine certain aspects of you, and certain of him. Her brain is wholly centered on HER. Period. She simply cannot think outside that little box.

She didn't send the email. Oh, so YOU must have blocked her email??? Paaaleeezzz. She knows how much you want that email, and she is jerking you around. She might not see it that way, BUT, that is the end result of her selfishness, is it not?

OK, so you've given her amply opportunity to DO something. She continuously chooses to do NOTHING. So, what you YOU going to do??? Hmmmmm???

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because you still loved her, were still in love with her.
What you are feeling now could still be that. Or, it could be fear </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm really disappointed in myself for not knowing for sure.... how much of what I'm going thru is the former, and how much is the latter.

But...I AM pretty stressed out right now. I'm supposed to be sitting next to my wife, 32000 feet in the air, at this very moment...
I don't know for sure if OB left with her today (probably), but the mental picture of it is making me sick to my stomach.

I've dreaded this week for a while now... and here it is... and it hurts like hell.

Spidey, it's been too long since I've said this to you: Thank you.

Tqt.... I hear in your words that you are getting to a good place whether you no it or not.
Just this past week I realize something very important that I would like to share. I don't know how important faith/prayer is in your life, but I read something about unanswered prayers. Reality is what you think is an unanswered prayer is an answered one, we as humans just refuse to see that God's will may not be ours, and the answers are staring us right in our face...we just refuse to accept it. We refuse to see it because it is not what we want. We refuse to see it because it is just too painful.

When you are ready to see it...you will, and you will move on and you will be healthy. I know it!!

Spider...have I ever told you that you are truely a gift from God? I hope you realize that perhaps one reason you are on this earth is to be there for tqt and for me. You will never know just how much you have helped us.

Warning: "Thorough" post... not particularly useful, not all that profound, but definitely "thorough"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you only think you want to reconcile because SHE might be open to it, then I think you are holding on for the wrong reasons</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just to hear myself think this through....

I want to try to explain this a little better. I have no desire to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me.
If I knew how she truly felt -- if it were possible to unload all the junk that she's piled on herself -- underneath it all, how does she really feel? If I knew that.... depending on what it was, I could hang on longer, or I could walk away.

Maybe it comes down to... if I walk away, I'll probably never know for sure how she feels, what she really wanted to happen... I'll never know FOR SURE if we could've made it -- IF ONLY I hung on a little longer.

Reading over the last two paragraphs.... it sounds pathetic. I'm embarrassed for myself.

Such a big part of this IS about ME... I want to make sense out of these 25 years. I HATE with a PASSION the thought of spending the REST of my life with this big, ugly scar... the failure of it all. When we didn't even try (her words). When I wanted to try... when I was willing to do MORE than my share to heal the wounds that SHE inflicted....

Half the time I kick myself and say "wake up and deal with reality... and move on."
The rest of the time I say "this IS reality -- the fact that I would like to save my M IS reality, and all it would take is for HER to wake up and deal with reality!"

She says she doesn't have the guts to tell the OB to... basically... back off and give her some space.
ISN'T THAT A HUGE PIECE OF INFORMATION?

She says "of course I feel like I'm in a situation I can't get out of." (paraphrasing)

I LATCH ONTO those statements and BURN them into my head and my heart.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">tqt, your WW has a long road ahead of her.

take her leisurely time realizing that she is too messed up and needs professional help.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is no one else now (and most likely never will be) who cares enough about her (and has the @%^#* brains to recognize) to see that she needs help, to encourage her to seek it, and to love and support and "be there" for her through it all...

But why do I care? After what she's done to me.... Why do I care about her?

Maybe when she's 65 years old, she'll have started to realize what she threw away... maybe...


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">With this communication you are having with her, you are in danger of becoming addicted to said communication again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uhhhh... "in danger of" implies it hasn't happened yet....
Yeah, well... It was weird... yesterday/last night/this morning... I could almost hear the whoooshing sound as I got sucked back into "It."
IOW, Spidey, this may come as a surprise, but you are 100% correct. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, maybe OM is happy only having part of her (well, isn't that how the R started? Why should he expect more?)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is being used... the part of her he has is really all he needs. And I fantasize about making him feel serious pain.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> (happy only having part of her) but you ARE NOT. Are you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely not.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She continuously chooses to do NOTHING. So, what you YOU going to do??? Hmmmmm??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Arrrgghh...Grunt! Find me a WOMAN!! Grunt! Grunt!

whoa, sorry... what was the question again?

I like to think that, with all the memories of ME down there in Fla... she'll spend the week overwhelmed with GUILT.
Maybe she'll figure something out. (ha!)
Maybe if she really does NOT want the OB to be there, she'll combine some guilt, some resentment towards him, some decent memories of US, and perhaps? a little nudge or two from her mother... and come back with a plan... (ha!)

And when that doesn't happen, I guess I go back to an aggressive Plan F --> D.

We're getting there... can't ya feel it?!?

ps. I've been kicking around the D/D forum a little bit today... figured I'd try to get a feel for the place...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hear in your words that you are getting to a good place whether you no it or not.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi Homer, and thanks... I'll trust your judgement on that (more than my own!).

Can I tell you something?
I read everything you write (I mean all your other posts too), and I feel so helpless and frustrated that I can't offer any advice -- with all the other exponentially-wiser-than-me people here, I'd be doing more harm than good.
But I just want you to know how much I care. And how much I'm rooting for you. And how I think you are one very lovely lady <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> .


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just this past week I realize something very important that I would like to share. I don't know how important faith/prayer is in your life, but I read something about unanswered prayers. Reality is what you think is an unanswered prayer is an answered one, we as humans just refuse to see that God's will may not be ours, and the answers are staring us right in our face...we just refuse to accept it. We refuse to see it because it is not what we want. We refuse to see it because it is just too painful.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My faith is not what I'd like it to be, but I've done more praying in the last year than in the previous 44 combined....
And what you say makes sense to me.

"We refuse to see it because it is just too painful."
So simple! And so hard to accept as The Simple Truth of the matter.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spider...have I ever told you that you are truely a gift from God? I hope you realize that perhaps one reason you are on this earth is to be there for tqt and for me. You will never know just how much you have helped us.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nicely said. Perfect. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have no desire to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Really? She had an A, and moved out of your home. Other than her little statements here and there, that could be interpreted a hundred different ways, has she told you she wants to be with you? Yet, you still find reasons (her little statements here and there) to want her.

I'm NOT saying to NOT do these things. I'm just saying that you really need to become clear with yourself, about what you are doing, and why.

IF you still want to be with her, don't put the pretense of the above statement ~ you just want to be with her, whether that is what she wants or not. You want to help her, protect her, be there for her. WHY do you have this overwhelming need to do that? WHY are you willing to "take care" of your mate, your EQUAL, as if she is a child? Because I think in many ways, you have done this for years. It could be how you identify your husband-ness, your manliness.

Again, I am not saying these things are BAD. But your predispositions could work against you, if you have not recognized them and do not make efforts to keep yourself safe in certain situations.

Just like with my emotional eating issues I am finding out about right now. If I continue to ignore them, not look at them, I won't be able to protect myself when I now know I am vulnerable. I just picked up three new clients, in order to pay for the boys' orthodontia! And I know that is causing me anxiety. Until I have done the jobs for a few weeks, I will not feel comfortable. So I have made plans to deal with that anxiety.

Anyway, by your WW's current actions, we CAN surmise that she doesn't want to be with you. That is what we know. Might she change her mind in the future? Maybe. Might it be next week when she gets back from the trip that is breaking your heart? Maybe. We really don't know, do we? We can just guess, and surmise.

However, YOU can control YOU and your life. Your happiness is NOT dependent on her. Period. It is not. You probably have gotten so used to the drain on your heart and soul, you don't even realize you have shackled yourself to pain. For what???

25 years was not wasted. It was what it was. You had a great love. YOU had a great love. Did she? Who knows! YOU felt very passionate and connected in your M. Did she? Who knows! For whatever reason, she bailed ~ she bailed on YOU, she bailed on your M, and mostly, she bailed on HERSELF. Why? Who knows! Fear? Old demons? Narcisism? Bipolar? Depression? Who knows.

I think where you might be missing your boat, is with ACCEPTANCE ~ of where you have been, where you are, what you can and can't control. It is lying still in the stormy waters. It feels like doing so would make you drown, but the opposite is true. To accept is NOT to lose, it is NOT giving up, it is NOT letting go of hope or love. It is a stillness, a calmness, that will let you see more, and understand more.

But first, you have to get REAL with yourself. Brutally honest. Honest until it HURTS!

Why do you want to be with your WW? Why do you not file for D yourself? Your love for her CANNOT be dependant on her love for you, her feelings for you. Can it? Honestly? Brutally honest???

Spidey

This site is acting weird.

<small>[ March 16, 2005, 04:49 PM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You want to help her, protect her, be there for her. WHY do you have this overwhelming need to do that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Setting aside the vows I took, and the commitment I had to my wife and my marriage...

when you love someone, don't you want to help, protect, and be there for them?

Isn't that part of the deal? Aren't those things a normal and healthy part of loving someone?

If they are overwhelming needs, rather than wants/desires... I think the "need" arises out of the desire to love fully, and love well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHY are you willing to "take care" of your mate, your EQUAL, as if she is a child? Because I think in many ways, you have done this for years. It could be how you identify your husband-ness, your manliness. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No... this "taking care of like a child" stuff really started in the aftermath of D-Day... because she started acting like a child -- she became a child. It became the only way to deal with her. And you're right, I should not have dealt with her at all.

(We were very much equals throughout our marriage -- I think that's why we made such a good "team" for so long. We treated each other with respect and admiration and tolerance and all that happy horsesh!t that now doesn't make a bit of difference.)

Before getting here (MB), I was genuinely concerned for her well-being/health/stability... I suppose the "husband" part of me naturally took a back seat to some kind of "caregiver" role. Looking back over the last year, I really had no choice. And it's not something I regret -- there was no one else -- absolutely not another soul on this planet -- who cared about what she was going thru... the huge amounts of pain she was in. I guess I was willing to lose my wife and my marriage in the process of trying to help her in any way I could.

To me, all of that is part of what loving someone means. And I guess my on/off switch is a little too rusty -- if I could flip the switch and stop loving her, I would.

I'd love to hate her. Things would be so much simpler.

I'm not as hopeless as I sound... I'm really not. The worst of me gets dumped here... on this thread... the lowest, most pathetic, most immature, most insecure, most dysfunctional parts of me... and as I move through this process (no, I'm not stuck in neutral), sometimes it feels good to allow myself to spill all this crap out -- even when I know it only represents the small part of me.

Hope some of this makes sense.

Yes, I understand all of that. In fact, what I hear you saying is more of the same ~ no matter what, if she loves me back or not, I love her and want to help her/care for her/protect her ~ even if it is from herself.

I just want you to be real about what you are feeling. As real as possible, anyway. Because if you are willing to still love her, with no expectation of anything in return, I don't know if you are ready for the D process.

We are wading through murky waters here, and I am no therapist.

BUT, what I hear from you is that you love her, but you don't want to wait for her undefinately. You don't want a D, but if she filed you would go along with it. Sometimes you think you want a D, rather than continue waiting, but you don't want to be the one to file.

What I know for sure is, when a decision has truly been made, it all seems a lot simpler than this. It all seems very clear ~ maybe depressing and sad, but very clear.

So, I think I am fully back on the boat that you are not ready for Plan D. And that Plan F is 1)a waste of your time, because you can't make anybody do anything, and you already tried and she didn't do it, and 2)a very thinly disguised reason to contact her and have R talk about your M and OM. Which is clearly NOT Plan B.

I say, go back into Plan B dark, until YOU are ready to file for D yourself, or until she comes back to the M and quits her job and gets IC. If you could accept those as your two best options, and stick to them, I think your life would simplify a LOT.

You have told her that you love her, that you are there for her, that you will let her go if that is what she wants. She has replied in the typical WS way of ~ accepting the comfort you give her by letting her know THAT door is still open, and giving nothing back in return. She is still in a very foggy place, IMO, and there is no point in talking to her at all. You simply ease her mind that she has more time to drag this all out. That there are still no consequences for her actions. When you contact her while she is in this state, you are enabling the A to continue.

So, Plan B, dark. This is the plan. This has to be the plan. Or you are just a rat running in a wheel, my friend.

There comes a time, even with kids, that you have to just allow them to fall flat on their faces, and figure out how to pick themselves up on their own. It is the hardest thing to do, to let go and watch it all happen, not knowing for sure IF they will get back up. I want you to know that unless your WW is mentally challenged, which I don't think she is, she IS capable of getting back up herself. It requires proper motivation. And when WS's get themselves into these predicaments, offering them a "helping hand" only serves to "help" them to move away from you and toward their addiction.

What is required with addiction is tough love. THAT is the motivation, the only motivation IMO, that the WS is capable of understanding. "Shape up, or ship out." They GET that message. And it either motivates them, or it doesn't. And that is YOUR answer, isn't it? Either you and your M means enough to her, or it doesn't.

I think what you really want, and also what you are really afraid to know, is: Will she choose me and our M, or OM? When will the pain of where you are now, finally be more than the fear you have of knowing the answer to that question?

Spidey

what I hear you saying is more of the same ~ no matter what, if she loves me back or not, I love her and want to help her/care for her/protect her ~ even if it is from herself.

Have you been talking to my mother again? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I tried to find where I wrote that, and couldn't!
If that's the impression you're getting, then I'm not saying things correctly.
And how many WS's love their BS's back, when they're AWOL, anyway? They don't. But I have heard many WS's saying that when they woke up, they realized they loved their BS all along. My WW actually told me she loved me, on her way out the door.... go figure...


I just want you to be real about what you are feeling. As real as possible, anyway.

If I were going to make up feelings, it wouldn't be these.


Because if you are willing to still love her, with no expectation of anything in return, I don't know if you are ready for the D process.

I'm not willing to do that.


We are wading through murky waters here, and I am no therapist.

I don't need a therapist. Just a loving partner, at some point...


BUT, what I hear from you is that you love her, but you don't want to wait for her undefinately. You don't want a D, but if she filed you would go along with it. Sometimes you think you want a D, rather than continue waiting, but you don't want to be the one to file.

I made the decision a while ago that I wanted to try to save my M, but it hasn't worked out that way... given that, is any of the above all that strange/abnormal? Isn't that basically how every BS-who-wants-to-save-the-M feels?


And that Plan F is 1)a waste of your time, because you can't make anybody do anything, and you already tried and she didn't do it,

In a somewhat mild defense of Plan F (sorry), which I concocted because Plan B wasn't working for me: it wasn't to "make" her do anything, other than fall off the fence... and you said yourself you were glad I talked with her, and did get something from her. Plan F wasn't designed to work in one fell swoop, any more than Plan B is. And, unfortunately, Plan F got interrupted by their sleazy trip to Fla, where it's now raining and cold, I'm happy to say <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


and 2)a very thinly disguised reason to contact her and have R talk about your M and OM. Which is clearly NOT Plan B.

Unfair! No, it wasn't that.


I say, go back into Plan B dark, until YOU are ready to file for D yourself, or until she comes back to the M and quits her job and gets IC.

Let's say I still want to save my M. Did you catch the part where WW couldn't even tell OB she didn't want him in Fla? As the days go by, it becomes more and more pathetic/comical, rather than a source of great frustration to me. The point being: if she's confused/whatever enough that she can't do THAT (tell OB to stay home) (the info I got from Infamous Plan F, BTW), than what do you think the odds are that she's going to "extract" herself from the A? Zero.
I'm not saying ANYthing but THAT. And, like I said, BECAUSE of that... IF I DO still want to save my M, sitting around doing nothing ain't gonna work. Do I WANT to stay married to a woman like that? Hell no. I just think it's REALLY obvious that she has a little story to tell, and I'd sorta like to hear it before heading to the courthouse.


You have told her that you love her, that you are there for her, that you will let her go if that is what she wants. She has replied in the typical WS way of ~ accepting the comfort you give her by letting her know THAT door is still open, and giving nothing back in return. She is still in a very foggy place, IMO, and there is no point in talking to her at all. You simply ease her mind that she has more time to drag this all out. That there are still no consequences for her actions. When you contact her while she is in this state, you are enabling the A to continue.

I agree with you 200%. I do.


What is required with addiction is tough love. THAT is the motivation, the only motivation IMO, that the WS is capable of understanding. "Shape up, or ship out." They GET that message. And it either motivates them, or it doesn't. And that is YOUR answer, isn't it? Either you and your M means enough to her, or it doesn't.

I agree again, but she's neither shaping up, nor officially/legally/permanently/totally shipping out.


I think what you really want, and also what you are really afraid to know, is: Will she choose me and our M, or OM?

Now I'm really confused, Spidey... here on MB/Infidelity... whether Plan A or B or some convoluted mess of Plan Whatever... isn't that what all BS's want to know? Will my WS choose me, or the OP? Why am I any different, in that regard?

And am I afraid to know? No more afraid than any other BS who would've preferred the M be saved.

If I were afraid to know -- would I have invoked Plan F, which is nothing but actively pursuing the answer?