Warning... I'm in a bad mood <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, here's what I wrote yesterday, and never finished/posted:

It's a Done Deal. I'm now the proud sole-owner/mortgagee of a house that doesn't feel like a home anymore... congratulations to me!
I arranged things with the bank/title company to have the whole settlement process happen in two parts, for the simple, petty reason that I haven't seen my VVVSTBXWWW in 11 months, and hope to never see her again. Interesting goal, I guess, after having spent 25 of my 45 short years with her.

The "closing agent" went to VVVSTBXWWW's office, and VVVSTBXWWW cooperated, and signed the papers... after intentionally making the closing agent wait 15 minutes (so I was told).

Then the closing agent met with me, gave her condolences a couple times ("sorry we're doing this under these circumstances, etc...") -- which I did NOT want to hear, nor need to hear, but she was just being nice. I was surprised at how stressed out I was afterwards.... didn't notice it at all in the 90 minutes we met/signed/chatted. I was pretty wiped out. Then, on the way home, took a wrong turn and ended up on this road I haven't been on since VVVSTBXWWW left... passed this cozy little restaurant we used to go to... the dog kennel... the nursery where we went every year to buy flowers.... the stretch of road where I had my head-on collision on the way to meet then-just-WWW at another session of: Marriage-counseling-where-she-lied-to-counselor-and-me-for-months.

Anyway, lots of wounds doing their damndest to open up again.
And a day that reeked of a very bad mix of betrayal and failure.

###

Today... I'm over all that. I've figured out that I still get myself into trouble ("emotionally") when I reminisce about years past. But, enough time has passed that I've also figured out that way too much of it was an illusion.... I've had time to accept the fact that my M probably should not have happened in the first place -- a sobering conclusion after spending so many years with her. (and an embarrassing one -- given how hard I tried to save it, and how hard you, Spidey, worked to help me. I do NOT feel good about that. You do understand what I'm trying to say, right?)

And today, the pain/stress/et al was focused on HSS.

(I've been thinking that, for TOO long now, the focal point of my life has been...
and I'll get real for a second... Really Bad and Miserable Sh|t!)

Anyway, most recently, HSS and her H have agreed that their R is (and has been for a long time) seriously impacting their kids... and have agreed that he will be moving out. When/how/whatever... I have no idea.

and as much as I truly care -- very deeply -- about HSS, I'm just so sick of all of this -- this failed R crap.
On the way home from work this evening, I found myself honing in on her kids -- thinking about what they've gone thru already, and what they're about to go thru. (I don't know them, but I've heard about them)

So, I spent half the trip home with my eyes welled-up.... because I'm so tired of all this, and now, again, it's hitting me right in the gut, and my heart.

WHY is all this happening to THIS particular family? Because HE "has issues" -- and has failed to deal with them, let alone admit them in the first place. IMVVVHO... where the rubber meets the road, SO SO MUCH of this failed R crap, whether it be infidelity or just a lousy R that ultimately crumbles -- boils down to a fatal absence of HUMILITY. When the Humility Gland is missing, ALL bets are off. And it might take 20 or 30 years to rear its pathetic, ugly head.

And I'm sick of it. (can you tell? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)

I'm making a fool of myself, so I'll stop here.

Hang in there with me, Spidey. Quite honestly, I don't personally know anyone else who can "deal with" the gibberish that spews out of my head, and at least pretends to understand it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I know I'm being selfish here, and haven't even acknowledged anything you wrote... and for that I'm sorry.

But I AM glad you're feeling better :-)

Thanks for that :-)

You know, it can be so many different things. Even more than a lack of humility, many people just don't understand or know themselves. They just react from one situation in their lives to the next, not acknowledging any control over themselves, nor resposibility of the way their own lives look to them. And the most AWEFUL part, IMO (and I think you agree) is that HSS and her H have given their kids absolutely NO HELP in figuring out their own R's when they get older.

*sigh* And on the cycle goes. We all live what we know. To do otherwise is to step outside of what we know ~ which is scary and painful. Which is also the only way to grow. For instance, I was SHOVED outside what I knew, and I could have either shriveled up or grown. I decided if I was going to be in so much pain anyway, I might as well make some positive changes. I think that is why I am grateful to the A in a way, because what I have accomplished with myself and my M in the past 2 years, might never have happened to me if I had continued in my safe place.

My H's dad has some REAL issues. He is very antisocial, mean, condicending. I mean, on an embarassing level. He cannot control himself ~ chooses not to control himself. We stopped going up there for holidays years ago. He can't even tell the boys apart, and one wears glasses! Anyway, he just got fired, because of his attitude. He has been with this place for 15 years, they got new management, and the new boss said, "We aren't taking this from you anymore."

He called up my H last weekend after we got back from camping, and in a round-about way, started telling my H that he wants to change. He thinks he's too old to change, he has no faith in counselors (he calls all in the profession "Psychos"), and he has no idea what changing will entail. But he has the desire. I was so proud of H. He acted like this phone call was not out of the ordinary at all (I was on the couch having multiple strokes), and that everyone can change if they want to. He told his dad that change does take time, but you are living the days anyway, why not make some changes in the meantime? At the end of the conversation, his dad said, "Wow, you're really becoming one of those Psychos." *sigh* We have hope, anyway. A bit of hope.


No, I don't. My goal here with you is to support YOU through whatever you are going through. If that means holding out for forever wanting your W back, that is what we do. If it means supporting you through Plan D (and Plan F), then that is what we do. I have not wasted any time here, or anything. I have been here doing what I want to do from the beginning. I'm sure you have other things in your life to be embarrassed about (<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />), don't waste any of that emotion on me, K?

Well, I gotta get brace-face and long-hair (can you believe that 70's hair is coming back with these kids? Sheesh!) out the door for school. I'm sure at least one of them hasn't brushed their teeth yet. BOYS!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Spidey

Where I was going with that was... a healthy sense of humility, by definition (at least by my own definition) includes recognizing the turmoil/conflict/faults/baggage/weaknesses/fears/insecurities we ALL carry around with us -- and in some "positive" way, at least attempting to deal with it all.
(And by dealing with it, maybe that can mean nothing more than doing our damndest to make sure we don't screw somebody else up... as in our kids, spouses...)

And then... what you said kinda blows all of that out of the water.
To make it even more interesting (to me anyway!), HSS has said the EXACT same thing about her H:

"They just react from one situation in their lives to the next, not acknowledging any control over themselves, nor responsibility of the way their own lives look to them."

I guess I just don't understand how some people cannot know themselves.

I do agree. More than you know. What makes me sick to my stomach is knowing how HSS has tried so hard for 20 years... and her H has not only negated a lot of her efforts to raise happy, healthy, "well-adjusted" (whatever that means) kids, but he's ripped her SPIRIT to shreds along the way.

What a huge subject to try to tackle here, huh?


:-)
Don't ya get it??? All of the above... it's a big part of what makes you so special, Spidey!
And I bet, if you could measure it, the statistics would show... the people that find themselves here, and not only triumph over the ****** that brought them here in the first place, but also stick around to help so many others.... it's that H-factor (Humility), along with of course lots of other good things. I was humbled by it all way before I made my first post here (as a lurker-dude), and I still am -- maybe even more.

Hey... have you ever seen those Hallmark Productions movies, or whatever they're called...that's what your story reminded me of. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> It did!!
No.... I'm not making fun of it... in fact, it warmed my heart BIG time, and you SHOULD be proud of your H! :-) :-)

Ok.... I'll accept somewhere between 49 and 50% of that. But for the record, I bet you know exactly what I mean. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Anyway... in brief...
someone wants to buy the house -- it just sorta happened, and I have to decide what to do about it. She really likes it, and I guess I should feel good about showing off all the hard work we (VVVSTBXWWW and I) put into it. I think I've become oh-so-very-numb about so many things...

And tomorrow morning I'm heading for North Carolina for a few days to scope out some property... to pursue "a dream." (I bet you remember that whole scoop...)
I'm supposed to be excited about it... why doesn't it seem to make much sense anymore??

That's what I'll try to figure out on the way down, I guess............

I think this is in the realm of "normal." Just an awareness that it is OK to be right where you are right now ~ keep your awareness. And keep your head in your own life, where you want it to go, what you want it to look like. I pray you don't sacrifice your own freedom and happiness (again) for someone/something that has pulled on your heart strings, yet is not attainable. We tend to live what we know, and inadvertantly you could be jumping back into the exact same sitch you are just getting yourself out of.


tqt, as you know, I don't know your HSS from anyone ~ but what I do know, is people live what they know. Your HSS is just as responsible for the state of her life as her H is. Truly. That she has gone for sooo looong with things in this unacceptable of a manner ~ what does that say about her, too? This cannot all be laid at the feet of her H. Happy, well-adjusted kids can be raised by one sane, happy, loving parent ~ even when the "whacky" parent is still somewhat in the picture. Rather than knowing what she wants her life to BE, I think she only knows what she DOESN'T want it to be. Which are totally different perspectives to come from. Even after she eventually creates what she needs in her life, she will need time on her own to grow, to clarify, to find out what she really WANTS her life to look like. If she has a problem with boundaries, with asking for what she needs and wants in life, her going straight into another relationship after her's ends with the H ~ will most likely produce more of the same for her. That is just how we operate.

OK, I'm off that soapbox (for now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />). Sheesh, what would you do if you didn't feel this freakishly bossy 33 year old girl wasn't telling you how you should live your life!?!? Well, I'd imagine you'd do just fine and move forward with no problems, but I'd definately have to find something else to do with a few hours of my time each week, that's for sure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


Yes, I do remember this topic! I am excited for you. You know, though, hurricanes hit that state quite frequently, and with the current rate of global warming, they are getting more and more powerful now, so . . . just be careful, have a basement and boards to put up on your windows on short notice, lots of food reserves and water reserves in said basement, and a good and safe place to put your BOAT when the storms come. If you do move there, we will have to make you up a very detailed survival plan so that I feel secure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


If I had to guess, I'd say because you're feeling a bit overwhelmed with emotions/feelings/happenings, and that probably dulls everything for you, not just the "bad" stuff. BUT, that is the thing about dreams ~ you just keep persuing them, even when you don't "feel" like it ~ because you know how important they are to you. They surpass day-to-day feelings, normal waxing and waning that happens to us all. They are on a level much deeper. Soon, I predict, you will begin feeling the excitement of your dream again.

How are you feeling lately? Is your sickness gone? Your little injuries? What were those injuries, BTW? I never even asked! Geez. Well, I'm asking now, like, 6 weeks later, and that is, er, well, SOMEthing . . .

And I can't wait to hear about the trip, either! Don't forget that !!!

Spidey

Great Scott, man, did I lose you to a hurricane already? I don't watch the Snooze (er, my H calls it the News) very often . . . I'll have to find the weather channel and find out if our tqt was swept away while touring property for sale on the COAST!!! A tragedy!!! *Gasp* What if you have been swept out to sea on a BOAT!? If you get satelite reception on your laptop out there, give me your last known coordinates and I will coordinate a search-and-rescue. OR, you could email the Coast Guard yourself. I hope you took flares with you.

Seriously, if you have been swept out into the cold, bitter Atlantic, I will be very disappointed because it will all be your fault for going before I could plan out the precautions you need to take over there. Did I mention Oprah's episode about global warming, hurricanes, and such?

I'm just hanging out, waiting to hear from my tqt friend. Just sitting around, hoping to see a post, even a small one, so I know he's not getting SCURVY out at sea because he probably didn't think to pack any citrus fruits!!! *sigh* My work here is never done . . .

:-) Spidey

edited because I am a worse speller than usual tonight. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Well, I will be gone for a couple of days, just FYI, so I don't just disappear and WORRY you. Just kidding. I know you are fine, just doing what you need to be doing right now. I'm here for you.

Except, for the next few days, I won't be here for you. My cousin died Sunday, and her funeral is tomorrow. There is no money to bury here, so the whole family is pitching in where needed. I leave today with my aunt, it is about 5 hours away. Then we'll be up cooking turkeys and hams for the service. Then we'll be driving back on Friday.

I also got some news from the local university here that I cannot apply for financial aid until at least after my first sememster ~ I'll know more when I go to orientation next Wedensday. I dropped some classes a few years ago, and missed the deadline, and had to take W's (withdrawn)on the classes. I guess they have a policy that you must complete 76% of all classes that you attempt at this university. I think I know my total, as I went there in 1993-94, but I'll need to confirm.

So, with both those things, I am having quite a few unpleasant feelings going through me. But, I am hanging with them. Not stuffing or numbing, or just denying that they are there. So far, so good.

I'll check in again on Friday or Saturday. I hope you are feeling OK. You are on the rollercoaster, just hang on and it will come back up again ~ I promise.

Spidey

Here I am, checking in. It was a lovely service for my cousin. We had a good visit with the relatives. My H had scheduled an IC appointment for last night. When he came home, I jokingly asked if it was regarding polymory (H thought he loved both OW and myself, that he believed in being able to be in love with 2 or more people at the same time) and still being in love with the OW, and he said, "Yes." Wow. I guess this past week he has been having feelings again, he's not sure what they are or where they came from. He could either be experiencing an "emotional bubble" as the IC put it, old feelings coming up again but they are from back then, not now. Or he could have repressed his feelings this whole time, 2 years, and he really does still love her and want to be with us both (puke). OR, it could have nothing to do with these feelings ~ they could be a catalyst, or something for him to use to name them, and we still don't know what the real issue is.

I don't know how I am. I walk a tightrope of calm and peace. I realize that I can't react in fear and scarcity. I also cannot doubt what I feel, how far I feel we've come the past 2 years. On the other hand, I believe in monogomy. If his core belief is different, I will have to make hard choices.

So basically, I have another wonderful learning opportunity in front of me. There has been no contact with OW, he is not sneaking around or lying or anything. He is being very honest ~ he thinks maybe too honest, because what if next Friday he goes to IC and realizes it was a bubble, or stress, or another unrelated issue. I am feeling a bit traumatized. I don't know how long the shock of this will stay with me, how long it will take me to get over this.

I am only telling you here at MB. I don't want to open this to a general discussion, because I'm not unclear as to what to do. I just wanted to share with my friend ~ you.

Hope to hear from you soon.

Spidey

Spidey, I'm here.
But sorta sick to my stomach after reading your last post.
More tomorrow (promise), but I just wanted to get this out there so you know I'm thinking about you, and hoping you're ok.

Spidey, I hope you'll accept my belated condolences about your cousin. You had a rough week. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

About your last post... you said it first: Wow.

I have my own little theory about this polyamory thing. It's really quite simple, but that doesn't mean I can describe it with any eloquence...
And this is just ME thinking here: if your H thinks he can be "in love" with two people at the same time, then it isn't really about love at all. It's about some internal conflict/confusion... and/or emptiness and/or fear...
I'm covering all the bases on purpose, because my point is -- love has nothing to do with it.
And it certainly doesn't have ANYthing to do with ANYone but him.
There's some stuff -- probably 180 degrees away from anything having to do with love -- that he has to figure out, or come to terms with.

What about this IC?? Your H may think he/she is great, but that doesn't mean he/she is leading him in the right direction. It doesn't mean he/she has a clue what's really going on with him.

Spidey, how are you doing?

"I've been one poor correspondent,
and I've been too, too hard to find
But it doesn't mean you ain't been on my mind" :-)

I agree. We have actually had some really open and honest dialogue about all this since I last posted. We both think this is something going on inside of him, and it has nothing to do with me. I want to be really upset that he is still looking outside of himself for happiness, something to MAKE him happy. BUT, I know for a while I kept thinking that I couldn't be happy in our M, I could only be happy if we D'd, but I didn't want to D because of my kids, so I felt trapped in a M I didn't want to be in but unable to get out of in all good consciousness.

I finally realized that what was going on with me had very little to do with him. Nothing had changed, he hadn't done anything drastic (this was about 4 months ago), so why were my feelings changing so drastically? After looking INSIDE of myself, I realized these were issues I was having regarding safety and trust ~ and I was only looking at everything that was lacking in my life and M. Once I looked at the good and the bad, I realized I was in a pretty good situation indeed.

So, I can't really get too upset with him for seeking happiness outside of himself, thinking there is a "magic" cure for himself. However, I am a bit disappointed that he has chosen this particular outside THING to focus on ~ AGAIN. Recent memory says that it is a trick he is playing on himself, he has gone down this EXACT SAME ROAD already, with HORRIBLE results. *I'm using a lot of EMPHASIZING here*


This is actually the IC that H saw that eventually became our MC. He really does "get" H, knows our M and our history, and I feel comfortable with H seeing him. I do expect that all 3 of us will meet soon, because I have some stuff that I want to express about this whole thing, and I want to do it in an environment where H feels safe ~ and I feel safe.

I was also beginning to become attached to H in what must be an unhealthy way again. Is it unhealthy that when you hear of your H's issues, you take them so personally? And I again felt extreme fear of losing him, of him not feeling the way I wanted him to feel, etc. I think it was good for me to be reminded that everyone's feelings change. H thought he didn't feel this way the past 2 years, now he feels this way again. Nothing is guaranteed, nothing is permanent, and the only person I can count on 100% for the rest of my life to be there for me is ME. Period. And it also reminds me how important it is for me to get to know me better, so that I can be my best support system.

I'm sure I have more to say, but there are a bunch of kids here breathing down my neck to use the 'puter for games, and they are distracting me! More later. Thank you for your very supportive post to me. It was very calm and well thought out.

Spidey

Hi Spidey :-)

Thinking about this... and speaking from my own "life experience" or whatever... part of me wants to shout out loud: how very lucky you are - you both are -- to be able to have conversations like this at all. And it's a tribute to you, really. And then, to your H, of course. And I'd kill for such a thing :-)

And we all know that, if the average WS had the wherewithal to figure out that exact same thing, most would never become a WS.

So many times I find myself coming back to that Humility Thing. So much so, that I feel like a broken record. You have it. Your H lost track of it at one point. From what you've said, he found it again (or maybe for the first time(?)) -- and now the two of you seem to be ready, willing and able to figure out what needs to be figured out. Is that not huge in itself? (and oh-so-hard to come by, from where I sit, anyway!)

Isn't it "normal" to want to be loved and accepted for who you are? Isn't it perfectly ok to be human and for each of us to have our own set of fears and hangups and insecurities, etc.... and need reassurance -- in whatever form that works for us -- from those we love and have dedicated our lives to? Maybe it's not your weakness that has at times left you wanting/needing more -- maybe your H could at times do a better job at recognizing such things, and delivering(?)
(I'm not bashing your H -- you know that, right?)

Yikes -- heavy stuff. IMVHO, all of what you say is true, but unless you throw in "commitment" and "tolerance" and "forgiveness", and sorry, "humility".... it doesn't bode well for Marriage as a concept............. YOU know that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

To be honest, I don't know. First, I don't know what "normal" is, and second, I don't know if every "normal" is necessarily healthy. Which leads me back to the overall statement of ~ I don't know.

Perhaps this is the frame of thinking I have to keep to survive with my H. Someone who is always seeking out more than what he has. I don't know. For years, I felt completely adequate for him. Now, I don't know what is adequate for him. However, I cannot let my self-esteem ride on HIS feelings.

In fact, with all the work we've done thus far, I know he'd be hard-pressed to find another person to share his life with that he could talk to the way he does me, that would accept him the way I do. I accept and love him, warts and all (figurtively, of course). Sometimes, this doesn't seem as important to him as it is to me. I think it is for him, but I cannot make these decisions for himself. It makes me sad that his brain has even gone back in this direction.

And, he isn't even sure what it all means. He goes back this Friday to see the IC again. I think it is stress. I think they have gotten too busy at work, and his stress has gone through the roof, and this is a coping mechanism for him ~ fantasy. Which also irritates me, because this has been an issue for years, and I used to monitor him and regulate his stress. After the A, he kept saying how he is a grown up and can take care of himself. Well, he hasn't. Not saying I ever want to regulate him again. I do not ever want to be confused with his mother instead of his wife. However, part of growing up is taking care of yourself, so that you can take care of your loved ones. He has always struggled with work and boundaries.

Oh well. I am pretty crabby today, so my post isn't as positive as I have been feeling the past couple days. What the heck is going on with you? How was the property search? Do we need to be making an Hurricane Survival Plan soon?

Spidey

Spidey, I've read your post about 15 times, and then started writing... and stopped.
Who cares what I have to say right now -- what's going on with you, right now, today, tonight, is the important thing...
Yep, I got the "crabby" part (<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />).... I don't blame you at all. What's going on in your head now?
To be 100% honest, with each time I read your post, I felt more and more like I just wanted to say "your H needs to grow up" or something to that effect... but that's not what you need/want to hear. And there's no way I want to "bash" your H, because, I like and respect the guy! He's tried hard, I think. (And I also think, in my gut, he's completely committed to you and loves you very, very much)
But you said it yourself -- this is stuff that HE has to figure out. In the meantime, don't be so hard on yourself!
Since this whole mess (my mess, I mean) started a long time ago, one thing that I've become particularly good at is to zoom in on every single little less-than-perfect (whatever that means) thing about myself and, at the worst of times, mumble to myself in some way: "yeah, no wonder she left you." IOW... like we talked about a LONG time ago back on page 20 or something: "internalizing the rejection."
I STILL do that from time to time, and it seems like you're doing that now, too.... yes?

Well, duh, I do! Sheesh.


You are the second friend that has said the exact same thing. We all have these issues, though, don't we? Things that seem overwhelming to us, yet to everyone around us it seems so clear-cut - Just grow up already! Ah, if I had a hundred dollars for every time someone has said that to me, I truly could be RICH.

One thing I know for sure now is, though ~ I have forgiven the OW. At first, I wanted to bash her, wanted to give H all the reasons why she wouldn't be a good choice for him. But then I realized that was my fear, my Stuff. The OW has so very little to do with this, it is pathetic for me to waste any time or energy on her.


I'm being honest when I say, Yes, I have to consciously avoid doing this. BUT, at least I am aware that I do it, so that I can slap myself (on the inside) and remind myself how wonderful I am and that I am a great partner. Which then leads to thoughts that these feelings he has been feeling are not about the OW or polymory at all, but about something else going on with him. I know my brain has played tricks on me with my feelings before. And when I am in it, it really really feels the way it feels.

I am proud of my H for not just acting on these feelings, and for seeking assistance in sorting them out. Two years ago, this would have seemed like a miracle, and now it is the reality we have created together.

Boy, cleaning two houses today, so that I can go to my college orientation tomorrow, sure did take the bite out of my bad mood! Thank goodness. It SUCKS to be that p!ssed off all day.

Thanks for being there for me. I am really doing OK. Did you find any property (she asks again for the second time!)?

Spidey

More in a little bit, but first check out this email exchange with VVVVVSTBXWWW (read in reverse):


> I will be picking it up on Monday and will bring it to you for signature or mail it...your choice. The signatures are supposed to be notarized.
>
>
>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 5:45 PM
>
> And now ?
>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 5:30 PM
>
> > And now ?
> >
> >
> >>Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:40 PM
> >>
> >> What's the holdup this time?
> >>
> >>
> >>> Sent: Friday, September 30, 2005 7:41 AM
> >>>
> >>>> The agreement is being done now I should have it next week at the
> >>>> latest.

--------------------

And now I want to reply: Mail Much Preferred. And slap the ponies on the @ss, please.

[/quote]One thing I know for sure now is, though ~ I have forgiven the OW. [/quote]
Spidey, you said that before, I think more than once... and I'm in Brutally Honest mode, and wondering if that means you haven't...

On my way home tonight, I was thinking about forgiveness. I have no idea why, but I started this little conversation with myself... and I was very quick to say "no, I don't forgive her... I probably never will... and why should I?"

Our situations are different, of course.

and then you said
I don't think it's pathetic at all. A waste in some ways, of course, but not pathetic.
And from what you said... you ARE still thinking about her, aren't you?

It just occurred to me... I can "get away with" not forgiving, but you HAVE to. In some way/shape/form.

For some reason, this is one of the hardest posts I've ever written. I think it's because my gut tells me you're hurting a lot... and I don't know how to help. And it frustrates me.

How're you doing?

ps.
I'm sorry... the answer is yes and no. No action yet, but I haven't given up.
Trust me, you'll know when/if it happens :-) And thanks for asking, too... I appreciate it :-)

Hm, no, I'm pretty sure I have forgiven her. I do keep wondering if it will "stick," and I guess each time I see her, hear about her, and most recently this incident, I am amazed that the negative feelings are still gone. This is the most "conscious" time I have ever forgiven someone, if that makes any sense. I have been intensely aware of my anger and hurt towards her for almost 2 years, and now that it is gone, I am still amazed. I think that is why I keep saying it, after each time that used to bother me, and it no longer does.

I saw her at a soccer game a few weeks ago. It didn't hurt anymore. As I watched her from a distance walking with her mom, her daughter, her son, I was very aware of my feelings. I felt sadness that we couldn't be friends anymore, I was able to remember our good times together, and I was happy that I am with my H and my family is together. I didn't feel the usual kick-in-the-gut feeling, which is what I have felt each time I have seen her or been in proximity to her.

Anyway, I guess I thought my thinking about her was pathetic, because all of this has so little to do with her. Instead of wasting any time or energy on something that 1)I have no control over, and 2)is so clearly not the issue, I choose to put my energy into my own feelings, my own thoughts, my own beliefs. And continuing to stay in touch with H, and talk about our stuff as it comes up. I'm not too pathetic, though. I didn't spend too much time on her, only about 12 hours total, before I *realized* where my head should be. Because that is what I learned my first time around ~ you know, separation, 8 months of MC, recovery ~ you know, THAT time around. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I'm doing OK. I am sitting with my emotions, most of the time. I am journaling a lot, talking to H a lot, and realizing exactly what I preach to others ~ the rollercoaster will bring me back up to the top, if I just hang on tight and be patient, and take care of myself. This has actually been a wonderful refocusing time for me. Not a full-blown crisis, but a little tremer, reminding us that our M is like a garden, it must be tended each day or it will grow weeds and choke and die.


I am, and I'm not. I'm getting to a pretty stable place. Sometimes I get ticked off, but I also know that when I get mad, I am usually being required to be out of my comfort zone. And it is OK to be outside the comfort zone. That is how we expand our comfort zone, how we grow.

So, are you trying to tell me by your earlier post of your communication with your VVVSTBXWWW that your Plan D is stalled? What is that woman DOING over there? Sheesh. My client I cook for over here, his VVVSTBXWW is doing the same thing. On again, off again. And it usually corresponds to when the OM is in town and staying with her. Hmm, go figure . . .

Chat at you later. Thanks for checking on me and thinking about me and posting to me. I really appreciate it.

Spidey

Ouch, Spidey... that reads like a tear-jerker movie... and it's very real for you.
I'm sitting here trying to figure out how that would make me feel, and... well, it would be very hard. I know that I'll go out of my way to never see my VVVSTBXWWW (I'm getting tired of typing that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) ever again. EVER. And living in the same area, and my work being about a mile from her's... I know it's going to happen some day. (BTW, I drive RIGHT by her office every morning, and every evening. And leaving the gym, to get home, I have to stare at it dead-on. AND, I see their service trucks driving around at least 4 or 5 times every day. They're like annoying little gnats that won't go away...)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

That's probably funnier that I'm giving you credit for!
Stalled? No. But 13 months after she moved out, and, according to her at whatever point that was, multiple YEARS after supposedly knowing she wanted out of our M (which is why she "found somebody else"), I'm still having to prod her to take every single little step towards getting this Over and Done. (a la Plan F, sort of...)

The VERY strange part of it at THIS point is... there's nothing left to decide/argue over/mediate/divide/etc... it's all been DONE. IOW, she hired some attorney, but they did NOTHING, and I coaxed her along the way to get done what needed to get done. Yet, as of today, she still can't get herself to sign a Settlement Agreement (even though everything's already been settled) which she's paid her attorney to prepare, pass it on to me... at which point it gets sent to the court, and it's all over.

I don't know. She "gives me the creeps," to be honest.
Although, at the same time... just last evening I realized I'm still afraid to hurt her, which bugged the ****** out of me.
Not sure where my head/heart is at with her, but I don't spend more than a few seconds (a few times/day) thinking about her. The bottom line I think... is that I consider her The Biggest Mistake of My Life.

Or maybe it was blowing off HSS in the first place....

How's that for a teaser? (If you'll listen, I'd like your thoughts on the matter, and don't get mad! -- I'm still navigating the high road, for better or worse.)

Of course I'll listen. Is there something to tell? Or do you just want me to comment on what you have said so far?

What I have to say about what you have told me so far is ~ I truly believe everything happens for a reason in our lives. I believe that it was necessary for you to be with your VVVSTBXWWW (it is getting longer! It will be easier to type when it is XW), that you had lessons you needed to learn. This experience has set you up for bigger and better things down the road! IOW, regret sucks, thinking about huge chunks of your life being a mistake sucks, and thinking of things that way can SUCK the hope and excitement and ZEST out of life.

If you had been ready to be with HSS when you had the opportunity years ago, you would have been with her. For whatever reason, you weren't. Maybe that was because your choosing criteria was vastly different than it is now, or maybe you wanted to experience some of the other fish in the sea, or maybe ~ and this is a mind-bender ~ she STILL isn't what you want in your life.

I'm not making a judgement in any way. What I am saying is that sometimes something feels good, feels right, because it is filling a need you are having now. OR, she could be your One True Love. What I do know is that technically you are still married, and she is very much still married. Honestly, you should be open to the possibility that her and her H could continue to do this "dance" with each other about being M'd and/or being D'd, for YEARS to come. This could be a pattern of behavior for them both, right in their comfort zone.

And, if this has been a pattern of behavior for her/them, even if she breaks out and D's him and comes to you, she could INADVERTANTLY create the same dynamics with you. Because it is how she knows to function in an intimate relationship. We do create what we know, we live what we know. If she had a belief that this way of living with a significant other was completely unacceptable, for both herself and her H AND their kids, it would have ended long ago ~ one way or the other. But based on results, it hasn't ended. It just keeps going and going.

These are my concerns for you. I think it would SUCK for you to go from what you've been through the past year, into something just as challenging. I think the best way to avoid that with HSS is to support her in her choices, encourage her in what she wants to do, and if that does include D, give her time by herself to get to know herself. Give her the time on her own that she is going to need to get some stuff straight in her head about what she wants in her life, what she wants from her life, and how she intends to go about creating that.

I want you to know, however, that I support YOU unconditionally, and I will listen to everything you have to say. I respect you, I know you are very kind-hearted and loving. I know you put a lot of thought into your actions and your feelings.

So, where is the paperwork at exactly? Has she mailed it to you? Then when you get it, you sign it with a notarization and send it back to her? Has she signed it yet, or when you get it she will have signed it? Then you send it back to her and she gives it to the lawyer to be filed? At least you have all the details worked out. Was that a load off your shoulders? I think it would have been for me, if I had had to do that. Take care, and post back when you can.

Spidey

Spidey, I just read your post, and wanted to flail away at the keyboard for a second...

Wow. Or... Yikes, even!

I need to digest everything you said before responding. Your words deserve LOTS of thought and consideration, and I don't take them lightly, to say the least.

(Said another way: Thank You :-))

Just wanted to say that for right now, just in case you happen to check in before I write more.