Spidey-

I agree that you should keep posting here. MB concepts are not, by any stretch of the imagination, law. You, of course, have the right to take what you find valuable in them and leave the rest.

Spidey...I think where you and I get ourselves into trouble here is we post exactly what we are thinking/feeling at the time we are thinking/feeling it, and it comes off wrong to some people.

Most of the time when I post here, I just type whatever I'm feeling without even really knowing where I'm going with it.

I think it's just the way we process things. Believe me hon, I have quite the 2x4 collection <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'll admit that I don't understand your feelings about everything that's going on. But that's okay, they're not my feelings.

I do want to say that your love for your husband seems unconditional. I sort of understand this part because I don't feel like my husband is just my partner, he's as much my family as anyone I'm related to by blood.

Your husband is a lucky man.

I can't even BELIEVE you are running 7 miles....Oh my gosh, I don't like to "run" to the store....and, well, that's in my car. LMAO

Just be true to yourself Spidey....that's all I want for you.

God Bless,

-Caren

Oh Kloe - that is such exciting news!

We don't always get through this stuff by the book. Some of the folks (like FIM) did a flawless MB plan and still got divorced. Some did a terrible one, and are recovered. In the end, you have to be the one to decide, since you are the one who will live with the consequences.

{{Kloe}} very excited for you hon!

Spidey, please keep posting. I watch your thread closely for many reasons one of which it keeps me real about my own. Can't explain too much because OW was on the boards but just know that many are rooting for you and learning from you.

Just checking, how's it going tqt???

God Bless,

-Caren

believer, I cannot tell you how many of your down-to-earth, nonjudgemental posts over the *gasp* YEARS (2 years now I've been here, Holy Crap) have gotten me through the day. And your posts here are more of the same to me. THANK YOU. You truly have a very special place in my heart. I feel like you took care of me when very few people in my world were doing that, I will never ever ever forget that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Kloe, well, CONGRATS! Maybe this time, though, it will be a little guy wrapped in a blue blanket. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I happen to have 2 of those myself, and they are pretty neat. And you are right, and I am afraid I was one of those "badgerers" about your H continuing to work with the FOW. There are general guidelines, and no absolutes, and everyone must follow the path that works for them. I'm sure that is part of the lessons I am learning now. We'll all just be Mavericks over here on tqt's thread, and post things that nobody else approves of! Just kidding. I hope nobody gets their knickers in a knot about that comment. Anyway, thank you for your unfailing support during all of this. Thank You for checking in on me. I can't say I have done that for you, and I apologize. I am so excited you are getting married in the church! How exciting for you. I am so happy that everything is coming together for you. Enjoy each and every day that you have. And definately keep us informed of the baby news!

Caren, wow, an hour and a half. You are one dedicated CHICK! One really cool, dedicated chick at that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Thank You for your support, also. I am trying to love my H unconditionally. It is hard. I am conditioned to want certain things, certain "guarantees" that I'm not even sure really exist ~ except in our imaginations. I certainly don't want to live in a fantasy world my entire life, thinking I am "safe" from anything ever disrupting my world. I don't know. I am still trying to figure out where I "net out" in all this shi . . er, stuff.

Spidey

ff, I almost forgot about you! Thank you for your support, and I'm grateful you check in on me over here. You have such great words of comfort, and it warms my heart when I see your posts. I hope everything begins going your way soon. I admit I don't know much about your sitch. I should figure out how to do INTELLIGENT searches and read up on you. Unfortunately, with my current skills, it could take me weeks to find your older posts. I suck at searches on this site! If you know a good place for me to read up on you, please post the link. If you can't, because of OW, I understand.

Spidey

So, this means your husband and OW are free to go out together on dates as long as they are honest about it?

Am I understanding this correctly?

Can they hold hands?

Will you be dating other men as well?

Like FAITHFULNESS and COMMITMENT? It does exist.

Spidey, you are SINKING, all the while thinking you are holding on by loosening the boundaries.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Spidey, is anything justified in the pursuit of happiness? What if your H wanted to be a serial killer? Would that be justified as long as it "made him happy?" Do you have any boundaries about anything? [outside of the ever hated "judgement and intolerance"?]

Let me explain one of the greatest lessons I have ever learned in my life. Happiness is the result of being good. It never comes from being bad. It never comes as the result of violating my conscience for the thrill of the moment.

Your H will not find "happiness" in the pursuit of an adulterous affair and you are not being loving by encouraging him to be be bad. There is nothing loving about helping him be self destructive, unless you think it's "loving" to hand a gun to a suicidal person. As his W, you should love him enough to help him be the BEST he can be, Spidey, not the WORST.

Adulterous affairs are bad and destructive, Spidey, but you don't seem to understand that. They destroy marriages, they destroy the lives of children. They leave children morally confused and devastated for life.

And you are inviting this devastation into your life. Why? Isn't it your duty, as a loving mother and wife, to protect your family from this devastation? How did the wheels come off the cart so badly, Spidey?

I want to also add that what you have for your husband is NOT unconditional love, but unconditional acceptance. There is a huge difference and the latter does not involve anything resembling love.

True love does not sit by idly while a person practices self destructive pursuits. True love does not allow a father to harm your children by pursuing a destructive affair. Nor does "love" mean that you forfeit your obligation to protect your children from harm to accommodate your H's pursuit of "happiness."

and it is certainly NOT loving toward this other woman to give her permission to continue what you already KNOW is an emotional affair with your husband.... do you wish to condone the destruction of 2 marriages???

When this EA grows into a deeper affection between them ... it will partly be on your back if the other marriage crumbles !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Spidey - My prayers are with you, and with both families. Today your story is being dissected on another thread. I'm sorry that happened. It is sad. This should be a place where we can tell our feelings without worrying about them being used to illustrate someone else's point.

Spidey, you won't find my story easily. Just look at my bio that is the easiest. Hugs you for as you sort through this mess.

Pep, Susan, and ML ~ I have not come here seeking advice. I have come here to keep my MB friends informed of the journey I am on right now, because they have requested it.

All I get from you three is judgement on this thread. I don't need your judgement. I am perfectly capable of making my OWN judgements.

If my story bothers all of you so much, don't read here! There are lots and lots of people here who need your support ~ I am not one of them.

believer, thank you. I don't care what anybody says about my story here. I have a very good idea of what is being said, without even looking. Things are getting mighty predictable here . . .

ff, I will look into your story, hopefully this afternoon when I get off work. Thanks for checking in.

Spidey

no advice

deepest sympathies

for you and yours

and theirs too

good-bye

Oh Spidey...

"Anyway, her H has told her basically what I have told my H ~ I trust you to be honest with me, I want you to be happy and if that means being friends with someone of the opposite sex than I am willing to support that, and if the feelings ever go from friendship to more, or physicality is going to happen, I want to know and we will re-evaluate at that point."

No judgments, I hope. Just an observation from personal experience.

My W is "honest" with me. Ac2ally, she IS honest with me (without the quotes) - she tells me how she feels. She's not truthful with me, though, in the sense that she's never conveyed much detail about what's going on in the RM partition of her life. When I asked this past weekend, she admitted she was still in contact with RM. Sometimes, over the past 4 years, she's volunteered that information, but usually I have 2 ask.

I firmly believe that friendships with members of the opposite sex are possible. Several of you chicks of the female persuasion I would consider friends. But my W and RM had an A. And even if it's true and he's remarried, and they want 2 be "friends", it simply isn't possible due 2 their past.

By being "quiet" - that is, quieting my mind so I can really perceive how we're doing - I am now absolutely certain that there will forever be a giant wall between us due specifically and precisely 2 this persistent contact.

It may very likely end our 30-yr marriage.

The most sensible, unconditionally-loving thing you could do is keep all this on the table and insist that everyone adhere ridgidly 2 the promises they made 2 one another. Help them 2 see the liberating quality of taking full responsibility for their actions BEFORE things get out of control.

-ol' 2long

Thanks for posting, 2long. I guess where I see this as being different is: 1)they have not had an A together ~ my H had one 2 years ago, and she has not had one, and 2)everything is being open and honest and on the table. I am told about all contact, and what is said. I am told each thing my H feels, as he feels it.

I guess I am putting the MB priciples to work here, because it was my understanding that A's prosper and grow in the darkness of secrecy and betrayal. That once in the open, openly talked about and looked at, these feelings eventually fade and go away. That is what I am banking on here. I am supporting my H while he figures out what he wants his life to look like. He knows if it means being more than friends with other women, that his life will be without me.

But that is his choice to make, not mine. If I could make him do anything, I certainly wouldn't be where I'm at right now. So everybody says, "Plan B." Well, for us, that means separation. Then, we have added a whole bunch of other CRAP on top of the original issue ~ him figuring himself out.

I could react, and just go straight to D, but that won't make me happy, either. I love my H very much.

So, I am choosing to hang out and wait and see. Right now, I still have a monogomous M, with a H who is being very open and honest with me. If my H was exploring this with the FOW, I do not think I could tolerate that. Although, after everything that has happened, and having my words from a year or more ago quoted back to me, I hesitate to put limits on what I will go through to keep my M and my family.

H and I watched "What the Bleep" a few weeks ago, and in it one of the guys said that the mind (or brain) cannot distinguish between what is happening now, and what has happened in the past. I know that is what I struggle with a lot, because my mind remembers the pain from last time, and it super-imposes those feelings on what is going on now. Because in so many ways these sitches are similar, and yet they are so different. *sigh*

Thanks for posting. I do appreciate input, and fresh ideas, and sharing of experience. Your post did not feel like judgement to me.

Spidey

Hi Spidey,
In lieu of rambling (you're welcome :-)), here are some of my thoughts in shorthand, and not well organized. And hopefully, right from the gut...

First of all... unless you're really convinced that this place is hurting more than helping, please don't stop posting.

I'm worried about the Respect thing... (it feels like I've said this already, so if I have, maybe it's because it's really bugging me.) You losing respect for your H, and you losing respect for yourself.

Although, as I think/type, the part where your H loses respect for HIMself doesn't seem to come into play -- then I wonder: Why Not?

That's scary to me. And I get stuck there, to be honest. I'm struggling with trying to find anything that he's doing to be worthy of respect -- as a husband.
(Ya know, I really hate saying things like that)

Another thing that's bothering me is the fact that people generally don't change that much after the age of ___. Their personality, psychological "profile," etc...

You're hurting like he11 -- every single hour of every day -- what is your H doing to expedite the figure-it-out process, in an effort to either re-commit to you and your M, or let you move on with your life?

I support you 100%.... except I have to throw in the part that goes:
Exactly WHAT is he doing... to do at least his share to get this resolved?

Spidey, I feel like an idiot saying this to you of all people...

Dig down deep.

And once you're down there...

If
you're being completely honest with yourself
And
you believe in yourself
(I know full well how all this crap can wreak havoc on all of the above....)
Then
tell everyone else on the planet to go to he11, and stay the course you've chosen.
Else
Remind yourself that you're better than you think you are, and deserving more.

Hey, this was originally my thread, so I can say anything I want to <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hang in there, Spidey... and hang in here too, would ya please?

I am hanging in here. And I am staying the course I have chosen. I have no idea how this thing is going to turn out.

You have very good points about a lot of things. Namely, the growing up process. Normally, I would agree that a (almost) 35 year old man should know all about himself by now. And I will to he11 that was the case with my H. But, it isn't. I don't know if it was his dysfunctional childhood, or our early meeting and kid making and raising, or a side-effect of his personality, I just don't have those answers.

What is he doing to show respect? To him, it is telling me the absolute 100% truth, even when he knows it will upset me. MY idea of respect is that if it hurts me, don't do it. But, I think we often give the things that mean the most to us, not the other way around. And right now, that is all he is capable of.

I just want to be sure we are incompatable before I separate/D. What is he doing to expedite the process? He is still seeing his counselor. I have decided, for now, to no longer continue with him in MC. It just doesn't seem to 1)do me any good, because I don't agree, and 2)in that process, it doesn't seem to help H much because I spend the entire session "arguing my case." Which, of course, nobody in that room seems to care about.

So, seems how I can only control me, I am choosing out of that stich. My plan is to just hang in here as long as I possibly can, so I will have no regrets down the line. Thanks for posting to me.

Spidey

Spidey:

"Normally, I would agree that a (almost) 35 year old man should know all about himself by now."

Being a guy who was once 35 (I think, but a very long time ago, 18 years), I can say with some authority that a 35 year old male couldn't possibly know all about himself. I mean no disrespect by that either. There are just 2 many "wisdom-based" things that he needs 2 experience and reflect on - for years - before he can know who he is and how he really fits in all facets of the world around him.

But 2 add 2 his personal growth right now, he had an A. That can certainly provide an impetus for further growth (a BIG impetus, if handled properly), but 2 complicate his choices by "exploring" his desires 2 have another relationship? Even if it's platonic, not plutonic? Well, that part of him is still just a little boy wanting 2 put toys in the fire and see how they do...

And what for? If he's a religious man, he probably expects some sort of accounting of his life choices in another 50 years or so. But even if he's not, what does he want himself 2 be remembered for?

This all seems so simple. He knows his current path choice is hurtful 2 you. That should be enough signal for a man of integrity 2 step back from the hearth and cogitate a moment.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

-ol' 2long