Well noodle I find most of your posts intelligent and deep so maybe we are of like minds, in that case thanks for the compliment. Yes my mind does know, and I believe that my heart does also. Otherwise why would it hurt so much. If my heart truly didn't know than I could go on like nothings really bothering. Except I do know that this is the worst pain I have ever/will ever deal with. (I've been through some pain during my 5 years in the Marine Corps).

I am deadly serious, as I've said many times my Plan B WILL start on Jan 1st, as long as my refinance of the house is done. Granted I haven't worked out all the details of how I'll get her to move out just yet but I will be. Even if she's not out by then an inhouse Plan B WILL commence, until she does move out.

I did an inhouse separation. Not plan B..no need 'cause..no A. That's what is so difficult about this subtype...I needed to protect myself..but..but..ya know? And what do you DO with that? Aack, I feel for you. I hope she comes out of it. What is she usually like? Nonfog state?

Noodle

Well I'm really hoping to get her into an Appt. so she can see what the singlemother life is all about!! Time for her to wake up and smell what she's been cookin.

In her no fog state, wow, I'd have to think about that, scary huh?

Well I guess I'd say that she was nice, considerate, affectionate towards me. Always said that she loved me. I never doubted her honesty and commitment (show of hands who has said this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ).

She's never really been that responsible as far as being a W. If you know my story then you know what I'm talking about. This hasn't been for the longest time a 50/50 marriage on her part. I don't want to dwell on the negative stuff though, I think this is where I was in the "fog" that I could look past all these issues that she had. Course I'm no angel and will be/have been the first to admit that.

What is your Plan A like? What needs are you working hard to fulfill? Have you thought of going out with her?

Hello Still,

I've been trying to fullfill what I have gathered to be her top two EN's. Affection and Conversation. I think I've done okay in the conversation need. I've opened up stuff about my day, things with my family and stuff like that. The Affection part is the problem. I'm willing but she's not. Everytime I try something she tells me "I can't do anything with you, it wouldn't be fair because I don't know what I want". I have to ask for hugs, she won't kiss me. I give back and foot rubs, put my arm around her at night in bed (she usually groans or grunts when I do though). So basically I'm trying to play the Plan A game but she won't even let me put on my running shoes for the race. This is very frustrating to me. Because how can she figure out what she wants if she's only sampling one side of the fence and pushing not the other?!?.

Despite this I've been acting happy and like nothing gets me down and no LB's or DJ's and tried to be the best that I can. However that being said this will end the 1st of Jan.

I finally went out alone with her on Tuesday (after 30 min. of convincing) for lunch and some shopping it was going really good, until she cut me with one of her "I don't know what I want, it wouldn't be fair" replies. I was still cordial and nice after that comment but not the overtly Plan A self that I was earlier.

For some reason I see her being stuck in a 30's midlife crisis.

The reason I asked is because I am a woman-type creature, and maybe I can help with some ideas. My top ENs are conversation and affection too.

What I ADORE my H to do is to call me, and send notes to me throughout the day...not many...one call or note a day is great. Just a "Hi, thinking of you, how's your day, bye." kind of thing. Another thing I learned about conversation, is the other side of it. For years I asked my H to "talk to me". I pleaded, I begged, I got angry. But I realized after a time, I didn't necessarily want HIM to talk to ME, I wanted to talk to HIM, and (the tough part) I wanted to be heard. I actually had to sit down with him one day and be very clear about what I wanted from him...thought it was obvious.

Here's what I asked of him:

Ask me questions about my day, my life.
Be in the same room with me while we're talking.
Look at me while we are talking.
Appear interested, by nodding occasionally, asking questions, adding thoughts (but not interrupting).
I don't want answers, I want sympathy. If I want answers I'll ask.
If you have to do something else, at least give me clues you are still listening, occasional eye contact, uh-huhs, yeses, head nods...

Beleive it or not, this can go far in reaching her converstion need.

The affection need is a little tougher. Don't know about other women, but if my conversation need isn't fulfilled, I WON'T give into my affection need. I also hate to think all affection from my H has him thinking will lead to SF. (probably why you are getting groans as you rub her back in bed.)

What endeared my H to me after recovery is he began touching me in *small* ways. Find ways to lightly stroker her arm/knee/ankle, etc. while you are in a position where it will not lead further (in front of the kids, in public...) This will help her feel more comfortable with the touch. And after a day or two of this type of non-sexual touching, it keeps a small ember burning, keeps her mind of OP...

Hope this helps...

Thanks for the great suggestions Still! I'm actively trying to do all the things you said. My biggest problem is with the affection though. She won't even let me try even though I told her that I don't want anything (SF) in return. I just want to make her feel good, but again its the "it wouldn't be fair", crap.

I think this would be going better if we were in a recovery. However we are not even close to that, more close to Plan B than anything...

In the interest of fairness then..I think it reasonable to expect her not to be showing affection to anyone else either..until she has decided with certainty the direction she is going. After all..if she is concerned that allowing you to meet her affection needs is not fair to you..then allowing someone else to meet them is not fair to them or to you [double trouble]..by the same logic of course.

Thing is it has nothing to do with fairness. Your wife doesn't want you to touch her [she is withdrawn from you]..she wants other men to, and she doesn't give a fart in high wind about what is fair..that's just fogbabble. What the real issue is..I think? Is that she has the urge to leave the marriage and party as a way of life..but a part of her [even if it's a tiny part] knows that this is a fantasy..and isn't quite willing to decisively end the marriage *just in case*..because with choice..comes consequence..and consequence is not her favorite word I'd be willing to bet.

I think you are on the right track, frustrating though it must be. Good strong plan A..to the best of your ability..remember meeting her ENs is only part of the equation, if she blocks the road..well, not much you can do about it. Followed by a solid plan B..which will knock her off her cozy fence one way or the other. It is probably time to start strategy brainstorming about this..how you are going to implement this with children and how you will deal with necessary interactions etc.

Noodle

<small>[ December 10, 2004, 02:07 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

Thanks Noodle, of course what is fair to me and you, as you said has no place in fogland. I take some comfort in knowing that she is not making out with any guys at the clubs. Thanks to the PI I know this.

I'm actually looking forward to Plan B, becuase my pain will end and she will be faced with the hard cold facts of singlemother life!! I'm going to start planning this week. First by calling a Lawyer or Mediator, then by figuring out how to get her out of the house. I'm pretty sure I'll be writing a Plan B letter real soon and posting it as well.

One thing that my MC/IC has said from the beginning is that my WW, emotionally and relationship wise is a child. She has never really matured during our almost 10 years together. So these things that she is doing reinforce that idea to me that she just wants to go out and have fun, without considering my or the families needs. Heck she's even alienating her own Mother!!

If I can pull off a decent Plan B I hope to see a rude awakening for my WW. Is that wrong to want to see her fail? Am I seeking revenge? I just want her to see that she can't have this life, and that life with me would be better. Course only she can reach that conclusion on her own.

I'm making a conscious decision to believe that she isn't that person because I want to believe/have faith that God can make her into the good W that she can/should be. Some may think this is my fantasy but I don't see it that way.

Native, I used to think those things also. I prayed every day crying to God. "God please all I ask is that you change him if not for me then our innocent daughter" My prayers were answered eventually but not in the way I had expected. He helped me by letting go of the pain and showing me that their is better out there for me. I'm not saying give up on your marriage, but accept that this may not be the road God wants for you. Stop fighting (hence the making excuses for her) and start listening.

I don't know how long you've been doing the plan A thing, but it looks like she will continue to do what she's been doing because she's having the best of both worlds. She needs a reality check.

Hi Xangel,

Native, I used to think those things also. I prayed every day crying to God. "God please all I ask is that you change him if not for me then our innocent daughter" My prayers were answered eventually but not in the way I had expected. He helped me by letting go of the pain and showing me that their is better out there for me. I'm not saying give up on your marriage, but accept that this may not be the road God wants for you. Stop fighting (hence the making excuses for her) and start listening.

And didn't you feel better in the fact that you believed in God and ultimately gave it up to him? I am trusting in God that he will do his work for this marriage. It says in the bible that we have to give him time to work. I am/have been doing that. It also says in the Good book that he knows our limits and when the time comes he will give us the strength to do what we must. I completely understand that God has a plan for me, if my WW chooses to be a part of that plan than that's great, if not then that's okay too b/c God will take care of me and the kids.

I believe that I'm listening to God's word, along with my Pastor and friends to give it time. MIL and I have decided that my pain cannot go on forever and the deadline will be the end of this month.

Back to my real question though. For any others here at MB that have had a situation like mine ie. party life? Bear04? Does anyone see a midlife crisis, or am I just being delusional?

Thanks,
Native.

My response depends on your definition of MLC

Noodle,

I don't know the definition personally, since I've never had one myself but from what I've heard or read.

MLC- Is acting in a completely different way than you had been living previously. To some that means deep depression. Others it is blowing wads of cash on cars, boats and other toys. Yes still to others it means infidelity. MLC is one day waking up and saying to yourself what have I been missing out on? Is this really what life is all about?

MLC is living for "yourself and your needs only, forget about everyone else".

I don't believe you can label her present behavior as a mid-life crisis. She is far to young for that.

She is trying to reclaim a single life she may have missed out with by getting married and becoming a parent so young. She seems to have an arrested maturity. She's living some sort of moral relativists lifestyle.

I hope she is protecting herself from pregnancy and STD's. How would you feel if she comes home pregnant with someone elses baby?

Dr Willard Harley has a books called Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders. May be helpful for her. Will she agree to any counselling with SH?

She needs a dose of reality with plan B and the possiblity of losing custody of her kids for her irresponsible, inappropriate, unacceptable, disrespectful behavior.

Thanks Trix,

I don't believe you can label her present behavior as a mid-life crisis. She is far to young for that.

I thought that as well, but have been told by a few women that 30 hits them very hard. WW just turned 28 in Nov. Still young but it was a thought. As that is what it looks like.

She is trying to reclaim a single life she may have missed out with by getting married and becoming a parent so young. She seems to have an arrested maturity. She's living some sort of moral relativists lifestyle.

Agreed, and double agree. No excuse in my book though.

I hope she is protecting herself from pregnancy and STD's. How would you feel if she comes home pregnant with someone elses baby?

MIL and I have talked about this. If we made it too recovery I would politely ask that she takes an STD test. Also I've been in one of her old purses and found some bc pills (even though I have a vasectomy). Granted they could be old, but I don't know for sure, also she hasn't been taking them since the no more pills are missing since I started checking. Which means no sex (which fits because of her and OM not being exclusive now), or she's using something else. As far as a baby is concerned, I don't know if I could survive that.

Dr Willard Harley has a books called Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders. May be helpful for her. Will she agree to any counselling with SH?

She knows I'm reading SAA, HNHN, I asked her a few days ago if she'd be willing to take a phone call from another conselor (didn't say SH) to help her figure out what she wants. She said no.

She needs a dose of reality with plan B and the possiblity of losing custody of her kids for her irresponsible, inappropriate, unacceptable, disrespectful behavior.

Unfortunately that looks like what will be happening at the end of this month.

OK,

I'll bite for some of that. "Is this really what life is all about" and blend it with Trixs spot on observation that she is trying to reclaim a single life she missed out on by way of early marriage and parenthood.[more on this later]

The thing about what ifs and coulda beens is that they are ALL based on fantasy. Everyone has them..what if I had chosen differently..married someone else..not married at all..waited to have children. I think this is common to man. However, in your wifes case..she is trying to actually undo the choices she has made..and this will never work.

When you make a choice..you automatically are negating choices that conflict with it. When I decided to have children..I made it nearly impossible and extremely selfish to push for a career that would demand 110% from me. I chose to build my life around home and hearth at least for the time it took to raise my children..anything else that I do is toward that end and subject to veto if it conflicts. That was my choice..so do I sometimes wonder what if I had acheived more? You bet. I can't do otherwise though, without damaging what is of primary importance to me despite the fact that any other activity I might wish I could embrace is neutral at worst and overtly admirable at best. Not so for your wife [and for my H during that time]. What she wants to embrace is openly and obviously destructive at any point in life. This drinking, slutting, irresponsible and yes..deeply disrespectfull behavior was NEVER going to get her anywhere good. So it could be that she is sort of embracing what she *imagines* to be the norm for young singles..*imagines* that she missed out on..not the reality of most young singles that I have had the pleasure of knowing.

Are you wrong for wanting her to fail? Absolutely not! I have no problem whatsoever with my H waking up in a pool of his own vomit being pointed at and mocked by middle school kids if that is what is required to wake him the hell up. She NEEDS for this to fail..she needs to see it for what it really is..she can't move foreward until she does. I HOPE that she doesn't manage to get herself knocked up or to contract a STD before this revelation occurs..but the board is packed full of WSs who did..and even those for whom this wasn't enough to clear the fog.

The fact that your wifes desires are incompatable with ANY marriage to ANY person suggests to me that this is a life lesson situation for her..not an EN failure [which is a good thing..since she is blocking your ability to meet them]..or a flaw in your marriage. A need for personal growth. And growth is painfull. And if growth does not occur you will be forced to protect yourself and your children from the reckless apostate woman that she is CHOOSING to become.

When she has matured, and she embraces the reality that no one has made her choices for her..she will be free to embrace them. When she has matured. Not before. Plan B will probably be the best thing you can do to rain on her charade <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . It's good that you are laying the tracks now..you have the ability to see what needs to be done before you miss her so badly that rationalizations seem to make a lot of sense. Plan for that as well.

Noodle

Noodle,

Everything you are saying is so blatantly obvious to me. I really can't understand any of this. I thought the reason I saw this was because I was a guy (not that guys are superior) in that guys tend to me more logical and practical (guessing here). While women are more closely attuned to their emotions. Yet here you are a women telling me the same things that I've been thinking. So why can you see this and she can't? Any thoughts on that? Is there anything I can do besides Plan B that will make her see this?

Noodle:The fact that your wifes desires are incompatable with ANY marriage to ANY person suggests to me that this is a life lesson situation for her..not an EN failure [which is a good thing..since she is blocking your ability to meet them]..or a flaw in your marriage. A need for personal growth. And growth is painfull. And if growth does not occur you will be forced to protect yourself and your children from the reckless apostate woman that she is CHOOSING to become.

I have been thinking about this lately. After reading SAA, and half way through HNHN, I have come to the realization that I was meeting her most important EN's sure not to the best of my ablities, I have learned a lot through these books. But I'm coming to believe that I was a decent husband.

So since this is a life lesson is there hope? I could use a little after the last few replies to this thread. I know I'm going to be okay, but I'd also like to hear from others on this board if they truly saw a chance. Don't sugar-coat it if there isn't though.

Thanks, native

Native- I'm still here, just been doing a little lurking. Our sitch turns out to be a little different. Though my WW liked to party, that has pretty much gone out of her system. There really was a single OM to, and the w/d, fog, etc.

Here is what I see. A woman APPROACHING 30 realizing that she never got to do all those fun things that other girls had the opportunity to do in their early 20's, in college, etc. Question: Who was it who introduced her to this lifestyle? There was someone, it just didn't happen. She didn't just go out clubbing by herself one night. There was someone, an influence that introduced her to it, like a drug. Once she experienced the fun, she was hooked.

One key to recovery is seperation, permanently, from these so called friends.

I don't think her condition is permanent. These friends will grow up eventually and get live of their own, and have no problem dropping her. She'll settle back down, eventually, but that may come too late for you and family. Unfortunatley, this sitch is very different than your traditional A. You cannot compete with that "fun" right now. You represent work, stress, family....RESPONSIBILITY. But this "fun" cannot keep her fulfilled, eventually she will feel hollow, look back and wonder what she has done.

What should you do? Well, I really wonder about giving her responsiblity of the kids. On one hand, it will force her to be responsible, on the other she may become resentful. They are preventing her from having fun. The feeling of loss is much, much more powerful. Think how you felt when it hit you that you "lost" your W. Imagine losing your kids as well as your SP. However, maybe she should watch the kids at her place on weekend night. You show up, dressed to the nines, ready to have a night out, she'll wonder. I just don't know the best way to handle this. What is going to bring her into reality quicker? I think total abandonment from everyone in her family is the best way to go.

I wouldn't be nice. I wouldn't give her a dime. I would not enable her in any way. I would say, you want that life, go, there is the door. The family stays here and as long as you act this way, you are not welcome to live here. Get your own place, that is what you say you want. In some slicker language, but you get the point.

Just throwing out random thoughts at this point, but basically, you need to plan B. Just the details with the kids, that is what you need to work out. It really sounds like they would be better off with you.

Native,

My H & your W could have been the same person. We got married very young too & I was pregnant w/twins. He was 19 & I was 21. We have been married for 13 years. When my H left, he went WILD. He was out drinking, smoking, hanging out w/his "buddies", not going to work, you name it, he did it. His OW was 10 years younger than him.

Do I believe he went through a sort of 'MLC'? Yes I do. No, he wasn't in his 50's, but he went through 2 cars, got so drunk the one night that he ended up crashing his new mustang & needed to put new tires on it. He told me at the time that he had hit a snowbank. I didn't find out until after he had returned that he indeed was driving drunk w/a friend.

After 4 months of this, he decided to come home & try to make things work between us. We are on a good road to recovery. It's been 9 months & we're still going at it. He has stopped his drinking binge, left the OW so he could work things out & stopped smoking.

From reading your threads, I know that you are a Christian man & have a very strong faith. During the time my H & I were separated, I had this very strong feeling (from God, that's the only way to explain it) that I should let him alone & God would return him home where he belonged. That he was on some type of spiritual journey or something & that it would pass. The verse, This too shall pass, always stayed w/me. I held on to that faith that God would fulfill His promise some day & it paid off.

I believe if YOU believe that God is telling you to hold on to your M, then you should do that. In that line of thinking, I believe also that God could be telling you to let her go. Let her explore life w/o you in it & see where it will lead her. You can do several things while she is on her journey. You can pray the hedge of thorns around her, a hedge of protection around you & your children & pray for strength to endure while she figures out what it is she is missing from her life. This doesn't mean that you give up on your M, just that, it's on hold for a while until God works through His plan.

My prayers are w/you,
Y

As I was typing, others were thinking along the same lines. There is also something called the "turning 30 syndrome" or something like that. Your WW may have had early onset due to early M, kids, feeling of missing out on youth. I still say someone helped her into this lifestyle. Single friends. The biggest enemy to a couple.