OK. R questions 101. I learned early on that the only person I can FORCE ( morally and successfully) to do any thing is ME.

So how does a BS enforce boundaries in Recovery?

It seems to me only stopping work on the R will be effective.

All I do is POJA, discuss, jaw, entreat blah blah. That HAS worked but SLOWLY and frustratingly. hmm. but it HAS worked so far... Hadn't considered that.

So how to enforce/police SMALL personal boundaries.

BIG ones, like NC is easy. I just stop working on my M.

But how about small ones ?

Hey Bob - Help me out here and give me a couple of examples....

I'm scratching my head trying to think of some 'small' personal boundaries...

I'll jump in here. I've learned a little about boundaries over a long period of time. I wish it was that I've learned a lot about boundaries over a short period of time, but we all have our weaknesses and boundaries (or lack thereof) was probably my biggest.

Here is an example of a small boundary. If you put your dishes in the sink, I will wash them. If you don't put your dishes in the sink, I will not wash them.

Btw, I used to "police" the boundaries I started setting. It was a waste of my time and energy. I have found that if a boundary is not being respected, it shows itself whether or not I'm looking, policing, monitoring, whatever you want to call it.

Setting and enforcing reasonable boundaries has been very freeing to me when I am successful. When I am not successful, it feels like I am a prisoner to something.

Did this help?

LB, mebbe I used the wrong word. by 'policing' I mean 'managing' the boundary. Making sure Squid knows its there before she violates it. Pointing at the 'keep off the grass' sign before the football gets kicks on there.

* RIF Here are some of my core personal boundaries :

I deserve to be treated respectfully by FWW
I deserve to not be lied to by my FWW
I deserve that she takes every precaution to remain faithful to me
I deserve that she take all precautions to avoid C with OM

etc.

What if Squid treats me disrespectfully? What do I do ? Leave with the kids ? Or just moan in which case my personal boundary is not enforcable, it is a WISH not a boundary.

Now if Squid contacts with OM intimately again I will divorce her immediately. I have told her that not as a threat but as a fact.

But what about 'lesser' boundaries like the respect one ?

Lets say she lets loose a sneering foggy statement in public at me. Do I divorce her THEN ?

Have I explained better now ?

Bob, those seem like pretty big personal boundaries, not lesser or small ones.

I can understand your consternation over this. On the one hand each INDIVIDUAL broken boundary does not warrant a divorce or other quite serious consequence, but you're concerned that over time lack of any real consequence will make your boundaries blurry and unrespected...and added up, they do all warrant a serious consequence. Of course you dno't want that to happen and are thinking to nip this in the bud.

At least I think that's where you're coming from <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This is hard because your wife is not a child and it's not like you can withhold dessert from her if she crosses one of your dashed lines (as opposed to a solid line like NC).

Have you considered "reward"? Plan A in itself was a kind of reward...not reward so much as just showing your wife how great things could be. Perhaps when she IS respecting your boundaries you could say something like..."Hey, i appreciate all the hard work you've been doing and it has not gone unnoticed. Let's splurge and _______"

I do think it's important to say something when you feel things are going in the wrong direction. Maybe if you're discussing R things and you can see her starting to be disrespectful, you could have some kind of signal...maybe a funny word or some body movement (that you both know what it means). That way she can adjust her behavoir if she so wishes. To be the d's advocate here...we're not always sure when we're hurting other people's feelings. What may sound perfectly reasonable to us cuts to the quick with others.

Soooo..what if she continues on her path? If it's words that are being disrespectful...I would just say, "I feel you're being disrespectful to me and can't allow that. I'm going for a walk. Let's discuss this again when things are a little less heated". This is not a punishment..it's just enforcing your personal boundary without "punishing" her.

If it's an action..well really, I'd have to kind of have an example.

***Lets say she lets loose a sneering foggy statement in public at me. Do I divorce her THEN ?***

Well, not unless you really want to.

You can't take the disrespect out of the WS, but you *can* take yourself out of the disrespect. Would you paint us a picture of the above example? Where were you and what exactly was the "sneering foggy statement?" We could then try to be a little more specific on what you can say and do.

I'll bet a good dose of Reverse Babble would help here, too.

Mulan

Bob... you really ought to read "Passionate Marriage" by Schnarch.

When you stand up and enforce your personal boundaries this is all about upholding your own integrity ... Deciding the personal values that are important enough for you to insist be an integral part of your life.

This is NOT about policing others ... it is about being loyal to your own values and integrity ... integrity!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pep

<small>[ December 10, 2004, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

PS ... you enforce ~those clear integrity boundaries~ which are based on your core principles .... You do not enforce boundaries simply because your feelings have been hurt.

Honoring feelings over principles is where all of us get messed up.... and as we all know, that is how affairs begin ! When feelings rule and principles take a back seat.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

another PS ... dishes in the sink is not all that relevant IMO.

Pep

pep
it sure is honouring feelings over principals sure has got me in a lot of trouble too much feeling.
BOB PURE
you are doing great keep those feelings in check do not let them get the better of you remember these bloody feelings keep changing

Bob

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK. R questions 101. I learned early on that the only person I can FORCE ( morally and successfully) to do any thing is ME.

So how does a BS enforce boundaries in Recovery?

It seems to me only stopping work on the R will be effective.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, what do you mean by 'enforce boundaries'?

If what you mean is 'make Squid stop behaving that way' - well you can't. You're doomed to failure. You can't force, coerce, manipulate or guilt her into doing anything.

All that you can really do is ESTABLISH boundaries. That is, when she does something that you consider disrespectful, you make it clear that you find this unacceptable. You use "I" statements and you make it about YOUR feelings. You say "I don't like being talked to that way. Please don't do that." If she says something snide in a public setting, you say "I find that hurtful, and I'm not prepared to be hurt that way." And you walk away, in front of friends or family. It will be embarrassing for you AND her, but she'll get the message. You don't tell her which aspects of her character are flawed, you don't expect any kind of apology. Your only aim is to TELL HER WHERE THE LINE IS DRAWN.

Naturally, she will continue to walk over your boundaries. And you will continue to calmly re-state them. It's a WS instinct to keep testing the boundaries. They'll keep pushing at them until they get the message that you're not buckling.

You have some kind of time limit on this, I assume? You won't put up with that kind of disrespect forever. But you will give her time to dig her way out of a grotesquely distorted mindset.

In the meantime, all you can do is to clearly communicate what is and is not acceptable to you, measure progress, and politely refuse to interact with her unless she is behaving respectfully.

IMHO.

Pep said:
"another PS ... dishes in the sink is not all that relevant IMO."

I didn't exactly make the point that I was trying to make. I don't think there are any small boundaries where integrity is concerned--I think they're all important. So, for me, an example of a "small" boundary had to be something insignificant or irrelevant like dishes.

The ironic thing is that I always that knew dishes were irrelevant and insignificant, but when I was first starting to learn about setting and enforcing boundaries I had to practice with things like that.

If nobody understands what I'm trying to say, it's probably because I am still in the early stages of the art of setting and enforcing boundaries. I have a lot to learn.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LovingBoundaries:
So, for me, an example of a "small" boundary had to be something insignificant or irrelevant like dishes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It's seldom about the dirty dishes anyway... it's almost always about respect and (usually) a breech of "fairness".

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Ok..I have a question?

My ww came home today for lunch like she always' does. She gets our youngest off the school bus has lunch with him and then then they head back to her job ( DayCAre ) my son attends the daycare she works at so this is a nice perk.

Well my question is this. I ww has been very honest with me lately about nc and other details of her A. I will then ask her questions in regards to certain details to get a clearer picture of her A. She has not sent the nc letter but is willing, she has not made a commitement to the M only a commitment to stay until June.

Well today and lately she has been almost borderline crazy with some of the remarks she makes to me. I continue to remain calm when she is yelling and screaming and calling me names. How do I let her know these remarks are hurtfull and need to stop...

As she was leaving she gave me a kiss and said sorry, I told her it was ok...And to have a nice day..

I don't want to threadjack, but:

***She has not sent the nc letter but is willing,***

"Willing" don't mean a thing unless she actually SENDS it. Saying "I'm willing" just strings you along and keeps you dangling.

***she has not made a commitement to the M only a commitment to stay until June.***

What on earth does this mean???

I think it means she is waiting to see if she gets a better offer from OM before deciding which of you she wants and is just using you as a convenient wallet in the meantime.

Either someone is committed to their marriage or they are not. Saying "I will live off of you until next summer" is NOT a committment of any kind.

***Well today and lately she has been almost borderline crazy with some of the remarks she makes to me. I continue to remain calm when she is yelling and screaming and calling me names.***

What is she yelling and screaming about? What seems to be setting her off?

***How do I let her know these remarks are hurtfull and need to stop...***

You say, "These remarks are abusive and cruel and very painful to me. If you want to talk to me, I will listen. But if you continue to hurl abuse, I will leave your presence until you wish to treat me with respect."

Then DO IT. Get your car keys and go out for a while. If she starts in on you when you get back, turn around and go out again. Repeat as necessary. She'll get the message.

***As she was leaving she gave me a kiss and said sorry, I told her it was ok...And to have a nice day..***

Don't tell her "It's okay" when it's NOT okay -- and it's not. That just makes you a doormat with a target painted on it. Tell her that it's hurtful and damaging and is causing you to lose your love for her. Tell her the truth. That is Radical Honesty. Don't be afraid of it.

Mulan

K I understand now.

Just like during Plan A.

" As you know this is a situation I will not allow myself to be subjected to. I will be happy to deal with you again once you feel less like treating me in a way I feel is disrespetful. Right now I'm walking the dog/going to the gym tc etc "

Understood. Boundaries are not a new recovery thing, just self-respect life preservers.

Got it.

need a rethink.

Thanks !