Just got an email from my BS/WW and am looking for feedback on how I should respond - she had a 2-week affair before D-Day, which also illuminated my years of 7 different affairs. So she feels more like the BS than the WS, even though she is both. Right now she is still with her OM but contemplating reconciliation with me. I have been in Plan A and perfectly good for a few months now.


HER:

I didn’t want to go into too much detail last night with my mom in the room but I when I was talking to IC yesterday I asked him if he thought you were being sincere in your wanting to change yourself. He said he didn’t know…I said, how does one know in the first place? Meaning, even if your intentions are good, it’s hard to convince anyone that you are trying to change. I guess it’s the price one pays for being a deceiving person.

He said, it doesn’t matter what your diagnosis is… either way, you are effed up. He said it takes a lot for a person to change when they were doing something that felt “good” …in other words, you have to be motivated enough and want to change enough to overcome whatever you were getting from your actions. I mean, if it felt horrible you wouldn’t have been doing it all this time right? Clearly you were getting SOMETHING out of it…otherwise you wouldn’t have done it. I told him that was a very interesting point.

He also thought it was an intriguing idea of getting divorced and having a trial period before we do anything permanent for the long haul…This would mainly be a safety net for me…like a probation…

Just some food for thought.


And here is my response thusfar:


Yes, it seems fairly pointless to ask Your IC what he thinks of me – any “diagnosis” he comes up with is based on 45 minutes with me a few months ago, the info you give to him, and what generic info he can get from My IC. So he won’t be able to give you a really clear picture.

My sincerity? No, I can’t convince you or anyone. I’m starting in the red and working my way out to being in the black. I just hope and trust that you will, by my actions, believe in my sincerity for yourself when it appears that I have made strides.

My IC brought up this point too – he’s worried – because he says “I can give you the ‘academic’ tools to fix yourself and ensure you never cheat again, but until we test them out in the confines of a committed relationship, we won’t see success.” Meaning, I have work to do on my own but I won’t know how successful it is until we’re back together (or, I suppose, worst case scenario we go our separate ways and someone else comes along in the future).
Seems like a Catch 22, eh? I have to be fixed before you’ll take me back…but we can’t know I’m fixed until you take me back…but you won’t take me back until you’re sure I’m fixed….etc.etc.

My thinking is that a time is coming soon where, if we’re going to start over, you will have to take a small leap of faith, saying “I don’t think he’s 100% there, but he’s far enough along that I believe he’s on the right track.” I could be wrong about that, though.

My IC suggested a 4-way meeting between the two of us, himself, and Your IC. Just to compare notes on where we think we are and where we think things are going. What do you think?

It’s interesting what he said about “motivation.” Yes, I was getting something out of it. But what I was getting out of it was validation of a part of me that is bad and broken. A part of me I don’t want anymore.

So, given the choice between doing something that feels good that validates an evil part of me (ego, self-esteem, cheating)…vs. doing something that feels good that validates a good part of me (love, marriage, fidelity)…
I will take the latter thank you. It’s much more enriching and fulfilling than what I was doing before. We’re here right now because I didn’t recognize that truth earlier, and I was trying to validate both the bad and good parts of me, when what I should have done and am doing now is fixing the bad part of me so that it doesn’t want validation.

Yes, I think it would be good to divorce, start fresh as a couple and then remarry later after a trial period. I think it would be a safety net for BOTH of us.

So –do you talk to him about why you had an affair? What does he say about that?


The discussion of my sins and what I'm doing about them is nothing new, we've talked about those things before...but those last two lines are more pressuring her to acknowledge her A than I have done in the recent past.

What do y'all think, too much or not enough or just right?

<small>[ January 05, 2005, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

I like your response. Also your W is still keeping her IC in the fog with diversionary tactics. Focusing attention on you instead of the real issues (like the A) and the IC isn't catch on makes both the IC and your WS lose credibility points.

Your IC seems t/b better equipped or so it sounds. A 4 way meeting would bring much to light but don't be surprised if both your W and her IC get cold feet. You will have burst their bubble and exposed their lack of knowledge. They may get angry with each other and then someone's bread/butter will be lost (Her ICs).

As for d/d and remarriage.....c/b true but how sad that the legal work is needed to date again? To appreciate each other? Seems more like a lame excuse to line the pockets of some lawyers. If you both know this now, then use the tools you would use then to save your M and a some $$.

JMHO,
L.

VM

Not a bad response but I think you may be buying into the 'YOU' are the cause of all her problems, you MADE her have the A, you made her act this way or that way.

You have to STOP that VM!!

Do you think you can change it a bit as below????? just some suggestions

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My sincerity? No, I can’t convince you or anyone. I’m starting in the red and working my way out to being in the black. I just hope and trust that you will, by my actions, believe in my sincerity for yourself when it appears that I have made strides. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Suggest something like the following (trying to keep your words so its 'you')....

No, it's not about convincing your IC that I am sincere, This is about improving myself so that I am better than I was. No matter what happens I am determined to improve myself so that I can be a person any partner respects and admires and is proud of.
I started in the red and I am working my way well into the black. My actions can be the only way for anyone to examine my progress and commitment to improving my self.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
My IC brought up this point too – he’s worried – because he says “I can give you the ‘academic’ tools to fix yourself and ensure you never cheat again, but until we test them out in the confines of a committed relationship, we won’t see success.” Meaning, I have work to do on my own but I won’t know how successful it is until we’re back together (or, I suppose, worst case scenario we go our separate ways and someone else comes along in the future).
Seems like a Catch 22, eh? I have to be fixed before you’ll take me back…but we can’t know I’m fixed until you take me back…but you won’t take me back until you’re sure I’m fixed….etc.etc.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What about something like......

My IC says I will have the ‘academic’ tools to fix myself and ensure I never cheat again, about making choices and taking responaibility for those choices, but until I test them out in the confines of a committed relationship, I won’t see success. Meaning, I have work to do on my own but I won’t know how successful it is until I'm in a committed relationship.

Now I would suggest you place this here with some changes.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, given the choice between doing something that feels good that validates an evil part of me (ego, self-esteem, cheating)…vs. doing something that feels good that validates a good part of me (love, marriage, fidelity)…
I will take the latter thank you. It’s much more enriching and fulfilling than what I was doing before. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and then you go on ....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We’re here right now because I didn’t recognize that truth earlier, and I was trying to validate both the bad and good parts of me, when what I should have done and am doing now is fixing the bad part of me so that it doesn’t want validation </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again you are accepting TOTAL responsibility for the situation which is NOT the fact VM in your situation. Accept responsiblity for your actions sure, not hers .....


What about......

I am where I am right now because I didn’t recognize that truth earlier, and I was trying to validate both the bad and good parts of me, when what I should have done and am doing now is fixing the bad part of me so that it doesn’t want validation

You are where you are because of the choices YOU made. I expect your IC is working with you on the way & why you validate your choices.

It appears we are both learning more about ourselves.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My thinking is that a time is coming soon where, if we’re going to start over, you will have to take a small leap of faith, saying “I don’t think he’s 100% there, but he’s far enough along that I believe he’s on the right track.” I could be wrong about that, though.


My IC suggested a 4-way meeting between the two of us, himself, and Your IC. Just to compare notes on where we think we are and where we think things are going. What do you think?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok YOU are handing her the veto here right up front..... needs to be a bit more subtle I think....

My IC suggested a 4-way meeting between the two of us, himself, and Your IC. Just to compare notes on where we think we are and where we think things are going.
My thinking here is that a time is coming very soon where, if we’re going to start over, to have any chance at all you and I will have to take a small leap of faith.
Where we both are feeling that we don’t think either you or I are 100% there, but we are far enough along that we believe we are on the right track. Then take that leap of faith and try again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I think it would be good to divorce, start fresh as a couple and then remarry later after a trial period. I think it would be a safety net for BOTH of us.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dont think you should EVER agree to this unless you WANT to divorce.
The reality is once divorced not many ever get back together. We have heard of it here but if it was so common dont you think it would be more well known?
If you dont want it dont let anyone force you to agree. You cant stop her filing but you dont have to go along with it.

The question about her AFFAIR is just as important as your behaviour VM. I dont see how you can even start this recovery process until your ww admits to her responsibility for it and that she like you has broken her M vows.

Any way just MHO and I hope it starts some positive moves going.

OK - here's what I actually sent, I did alot of editing from the original, before I read your post, AW:


Yes, it seems fairly pointless to ask Your IC what he thinks of me – any “diagnosis” he comes up with is based on 45 minutes with me a few months ago, the info you give to him, and what generic info he can get from My IC. That’s nowhere near enough, he can’t really say unless I become HIS patient. He’s there to help you, not diagnose me.

My sincerity? No, I can’t convince you or anyone. And it’s much better if I don’t have to “sell” it to you, you should want to “buy” it just by your own observation that it’s worth the investment.

This isn’t a matter of IF I will change, because I will and already have in some ways…it’s a matter of IF and WHEN you see enough progress that you feel safe enough to start over again. My sincerity is and will be proved by my actions over time.

My IC brought up this point too – he’s worried – because the work that we’re doing on me can only be test-driven in a committed relationship, where we are living together, a couple again, working on things in marriage counseling, etc. He said “it’s like a tree falling in the woods – you don’t know if it makes a sound because there’s no one there to hear it.” Meaning, a reforming cheater can’t know he’s reformed unless he has someone to be faithful to.

He said, like it says in “After The Affair,” that it will be a matter of when you’re ready to take that leap of faith to say “he’s not 100% there yet, but he’s far enough along that we can start working on things, and he can’t go the rest of the way without me.” In a sense saying that I need your help, too, I can do most of the work myself but I need you to help me finish it. Interesting perspective, eh?

My IC suggested a 4-way meeting between the two of us, himself, and Your IC. Just to compare notes on where we think we are and where we think things are going. What do you think?

The idea of divorcing and then restarting is, to me, purely symbolic…a way of saying “our previous life was great in a lot of ways, but it’s tainted by the memory of all of this, so let’s ‘cut the ties’ and start fresh.” Like what you said a few months ago re: “we should get married again if we work this out.” Start over with new memories and experiences…that actually sounds kinda nice.

So –do you talk to him about why you had an affair? What does he say about that? I’m curious.

Good letter! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Agree 100% with Orchid and AW, but I'm not going to beat that dead horse anymore. The last two lines in your letter will illicit a response from WW which should be interesting to say the least.

Her response:


WTF? When did Your IC mention the tree falling in the forest?? My IC said the same thing to me last night!! It was in a slightly different context.

Well, Your IC has a different idea about working things out. If we did the divorce thing and trial relationship, My IC said it would be best to NOT live together during that time. Then we could maybe move live together in a year or so…when we felt “ready” He said no matter what I would have to be extremely guarded for a long time. In other words, I would have to walk on egg shells for awhile and monitoring your actions to make sure you are not deceiving me again. He mainly sees things that way because of your “lifetime” cheating. He said it would be up to me as far as how I FEEL about the whole thing. But he asked me.. “ Do you really want to go through with all that walking on eggshells?”


Good question…I mean..I could also let my guard down one day only to have you do it THEN. It’s all a risk… He said the people that are similar to you that he has treated, CAN change but it takes A LOT of work..and at LEAST 1 and a half years of therapy to even show a difference..he said, a year maybe but not likely…that these issues take YEARS to get over.


So yes…I understand what Your IC says about me being with you..but what if I left you tomorrow? What if I died in a car accident??? Does that mean you can’t heal on your own? I don’t buy that…you MUST heal on your own VM.. or I suppose you could find a guinea pig somewhere else… and I am sure that Your IC should understand my hesitant nature due to the amount of damage….

I don’t know if I am ready to hear the tree fall so to speak….

As for a 4 way talk…I don’t really mind but what is the purpose?

That last line refers to the fact that our IC's compared notes, and her IC was getting more of a "VM is out, OM is in" type of story, which was different from what I've been telling my IC.
But, she cleared that up a few weeks ago re: she had been misleading him and finally confessed that she's giving me a chance and OM isn't as important as she may have led him to believe. So my IC recommended a 4-way so we could clear the air and get everyone on the same page about our chances for reconciliation and what OM really means.


And then she added THIS in response to my last lines:

Yes…OF COURSE I talk about my affair…I thought I told you why I had one..and what I had figured out..we can talk about it more in person if you want…


Yes, she did talk to me about it - she sat on the floor of our apartment a few weeks ago while we were packing boxes and sobbed her eyes out and apologized profusely for her affair. That is true, and that was a VERY good sign.

However, not much mention has been made of it since.

Her reasoning was that she was unhappy with me, that I was failing to meet her ideal of a good husband because SHE was changing - she was getting more "grown-up" and had different goals from me, and was getting increasingly fed-up by my "rock n roll" lifestyle and irresponsibility with money. And she went out and found a man who had a lot of my good qualities but none of my bad (but obviously he has his own bad qualities).

Of course she also admitted that having an affair was exactly the WRONG way to deal with these issues and that she should have come to me with them.

So - yes, she has claimed responsibility and fault.

And she's right about those things she said in her email - especially if you put them in a context that doesn't involve OM - really we're dealing with separate issues here, that of our reconciliation and what it's going to take for us to trust each other again since we both cheated...
and the matter of her current R with OM now that we're separated and she sees us as "just friends" with the possibility of future rebuilding.

I DO trust that when and if she decides that we can start working it out, she will dump OM and start the process. Hopefully that's sooner than later.

<small>[ December 10, 2004, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

I know, it's always the small things that we latch on to...

My BS/WW has been in an interesting state lately. I can tell she seems to be waking up to the reality of what's going on, how she is technically stringing along two men (myself and OM) and obviously leading us both to believe that we should stick around. And, I think she's starting to more consciously entertain the notion of dumping OM and giving us another try. I think.


At any rate...
BS/WW was here tonight, she comes by to do laundry since she and Mom are still living in a hotel while Mom's house is being finished.

She started off the inquisition very sweetly "what were we doing on Sunday the 5th?" We had gone to look at the new home models and talk to the seller, etc. and then were talking about where she slept that night (she's been staying with me some nights when it's too far and too late to drive back to Mom's hotel room and she needs to be in this part of town the next day), and how she had gone back to the hotel that night, blahblahblah...

She finally got to the crux of the issue "so who called you on your cell phone at 1:30 and 2:00 in the morning on Sunday morning?"

I was truly perplexed for a minute - obviously she had checked the cell phone bill, seen the calls, and was suspicious that I'm still talking to OW -

I finally figured it out...
I said "that was YOU. You left your friend's party at that bar and were driving back to her house and you called me to help with directions, then you called me again 30 minutes later to say goodnight."

She became visibly embarrassed and later said "I'm sorry, I feel like an a$$ - you know I thought it was something else and it wasn't, and I apologize for suspecting you."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Not only did I feel vindicated that she got some hard evidence that I'm not talking to OW (haven't heard from a one of them in months, and I even changed my cell number to avoid them, so if she were right it would mean I was REALLY still being evil)...but I also felt good that she's bothering to check the cell phone bill again.
One thing that was bothering me was the fact that she seemed to have stopped looking, and obviously if she doesn't care if I'm talking to OW, then she's not interested in giving me a 2nd chance. The truth is, I WELCOME her inquisitions right now because it shows that she cares.

Anyway...that all has nothing to do with her OM and the lunacy of it all, but at least on the subject of her trust for me, I gained some headway tonight.

Just thought I'd share, since we mostly hear stories of WS's getting caught in more lies and deception, this is the reverse <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Honesty feels good doesn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong> Honesty feels good doesn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It does. I still kick myself hourly for not realizing that years ago when I started deluding myself into thinking that having A's had nothing to do with my M. But, there's not time like the present to start doing the right thing.

Now....if only BS/WW would realize that too.....

VM,

Now is NOT the time to leave your shoe print on your back side. Time to make those shoes go do some healthy walking both literally (for your health) and emotionally (for your mind/heart). Maybe one day your W will come and walk beside you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> One can hope, eh?

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong> VM,

Now is NOT the time to leave your shoe print on your back side. Time to make those shoes go do some healthy walking both literally (for your health) and emotionally (for your mind/heart). Maybe one day your W will come and walk beside you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> One can hope, eh?

L. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know...I'm starting to learn that I need to stop flogging myself, figuratively and otherwise.

Every day is another step towards proving my sincerity and strength.

She is coming with me to my IC on Thursday, hopefully that will be a positive experience for us both.

But, I've been tweaking and fine-tuning my Plan B letter, in the event I need it in the next few months. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

VM,

Trust is a two way street even in the standard scenario of BS and WS. The BS must be given assurances by the WS that he/she is willing to become 100% committed to being accountable to the BS about his/her whereabouts and activities at all times. And the WS must be given assurances by the BS that he/she must never throw the affair in the WS face whenever disagreements arise in the future. In other words, only embracing and implementing the concept of mutual accountability can trust be rebuilt for both of you.

TMCM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong> VM,

Trust is a two way street even in the standard scenario of BS and WS. The BS must be given assurances by the WS that he/she is willing to become 100% committed to being accountable to the BS about his/her whereabouts and activities at all times. And the WS must be given assurances by the BS that he/she must never throw the affair in the WS face whenever disagreements arise in the future. In other words, only embracing and implementing the concept of mutual accountability can trust be rebuilt for both of you.

TMCM </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it wasn't until just recently that we had ANY discussions about my trust for HER in light of her A, let alone the trust that she won't use my A's as a weapon against me. We'll definitely get more into the "conditions for rebuilding" when and if she decides we're going that route.

In the meantime, I'm still fighting with the idea of trying to detach from her so she will end her A with OM, and waiting her out while she struggles with the idea. She's spending a full 9 days with him over the holidays, it will be the longest we've been apart in this whole ordeal.

When she returns, things will have to start changing or my Plan B letter will become more and more refined and be delivered soon after.

I know one of my big problems has been hanging on every word my BS/WW says, but one thing I've been trying to learn is how to "read between the lines" and listen to what she says when she's not saying it instead of listening to what she says directly to me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Of course actions speak louder than words, and action #1 will be to dump OM and start to rebuild with me, and yes that's a given. I'm trying to take heart in the baby steps that are seeming to get us to that point. If they don't, my Plan B letter is ready to go <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Anyway...

I've been noticing these last few weeks, and in relation to the idea of buying a house in particular, that my BS/WW is talking in a strange way...

She's skipping over the part where she makes the DECISION to dump OM and start over with me...
And going straight to talking as if it's a GIVEN that she's going to dump OM and start over with me.

Clue #1:
We got closer to the financing and signing and she balked, so I started trying to figure the numbers without her, with me as sole signer, and so far it's working. She's still helping me analyze the financing and options, etc. (she DID pick the house, after all)
But oddly enough...here's how she's justified not signing with me...
"If you screw me over later I have to be able to leave on a moment's notice and have no ties to you."

Talking more in "WHEN" terms than in "IF" terms.

Of course, she'll be with OM over the holidays, and who knows when all of this will come down after that, but it will definitely be AFTER that. She is still in debt to OM for the $4000 loan he gave her, and still has to live with her Mom until March to pay it off, so there would be little chance of reconciliation until then...

Although...
She COULD dump OM before then and just be "alone" until she decides to restart...AND...
Her IC recommended we start rebuilding and then live apart for awhile, so the ability to live together isn't an obstacle to rebuilding...

So I suppose there are still doubts to work out. I'm going to make it clear that I do NOT want her to dump OM and immediately take me back, because I don't know that I want to go through withdrawals from OM. So we shall see.

I just noticed a change in her speaking patterns, that's all, and I'm taking a small degree of hope in them.

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

TMCM, Weaver, 2Long, Orchid...I would like you to look over my rough draft Plan B letter, but I don't really want to post it here for many different and important reasons.

Is there a way I can email it to any or all of you for feedback?

Thanks!

Vnus,

I can't critique your letter, I'm just not experienced enough. Just keep bumping until the others show up.

Vnus I will say that I think your WW going to spend nine days with OM at Christmas is just plain cruel. I don't care what you have done, you do not deserve this kind of heartless abuse.

I have been with two serial cheaters in my life, I loved both of them very much and I would never put them through the kind of hell you are going to go through at Christmas. It boggles my mind that she is doing this.

I am truly sorry, and hope that you find a way to be happy over the holidays, regardless. And please know that this is going to do major damage to the love you have for her, whether you realize it or not.

You might want to add Chris to the topic line too, and he is an expert at Plan B letters. I'm sure the others are very good too though.

VM:

My email's below.

I don't really know what 2 say 2 you at this point. Just that it's not just YOU obsessing about what SHE's doing, SHE *AND* her IC (apparently) are fantasizing about what's *wrong* with you, with the result that EVERYBODY is giving/getting useless advice. Mental Mas2rbation.

It's like she's watching as you dig yourself out of the mud you bogged yourself down in, while she's digging herself deeper in2 the very same mud - and badmouthing the mud!

She may never be so satisfied with your progress that she'll suddenly feel safe. Being in a committed relationship involves risk, and taking risk requires a leap of faith - 2 believe that something is possible and acting on that belief.

While she's still involved with OM, she can't make that leap of faith.

Edited 2 add: If you're going 2 give her a plan B letter, do it before she spends the holidays with OM.

-ol' 2long

<small>[ December 15, 2004, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> VM:

She may never be so satisfied with your progress that she'll suddenly feel safe. Being in a committed relationship involves risk, and taking risk requires a leap of faith - 2 believe that something is possible and acting on that belief.

While she's still involved with OM, she can't make that leap of faith.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's funny, I was saying the same thing to her just 10 minutes ago.
I think she even said that she wants to start over with me, but doesn't know how it would work.

She still says she is deathly afraid of taking that risk and will be very wary and walking on eggshells and isn't sure she wants to go through that. She's been saying this for awhile now.


I know her spending the holidays with OM seems like a huge jab, but it really isn't THAT bad, we've never been big on the holidays anyway. I'm more upset about 9 days apart than I am about the fact that it's Christmas.

I'm going to expect some things to change after the holidays. If they don't, I'll deliver my Plan B letter. I want her to spend 9 days with OM thinking of how hopeful and sweet and well-behaved I've been and see if she can still feel good about it.

I know her spending the holidays with OM seems like a huge jab, but it really isn't THAT bad, we've never been big on the holidays anyway. I'm more upset about 9 days apart than I am about the fact that it's Christmas.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

I'm going to expect some things to change after the holidays. If they don't, I'll deliver my Plan B letter. I want her to spend 9 days with OM thinking of how hopeful and sweet and well-behaved I've been and see if she can still feel good about it.

Okay.

She is expecting you to be and remain faithful while she is not, to prove yourself to her. This is the biggest bunch of hogwash I have seen on this board.

I keep saying it and I guess I'll keep right on - Can you say FOG? Both of you are in the fog. You are playing games, both of you. And until this stops, integrity on both your parts will be questionable.

I'll ask again, does her OM know his days are numbered? Does he know that this Christmas he is spending with your WW is a HUGE, FAT lie? Does your WW think that only other people are bound by a responsibilty to not hurt others? How in the world will you ever be able to trust her when she thinks that lieing to and delibertly hurting another is OKAY, as long as she is the one doing it? I know that you don't care about OM, but the fact that your WW can use him this way when she has every intention of going back to you (or so she wants you to think) doesn't weigh on your mind?

I'm not trying to keep you in doubt mode, but dangit Vnus you cannot become a quality person if you allow yourself to be a part of anothers deception.

I would just like to hear you say this is NOT okay and I am done with this travesty.

I know, I know... it's Plan A. Just ticks me off a bit.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by VnusMars:
<strong> TMCM, Weaver, 2Long, Orchid...I would like you to look over my rough draft Plan B letter, but I don't really want to post it here for many different and important reasons.

Is there a way I can email it to any or all of you for feedback?

Thanks! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi VM,

Yep, can do..... if you want anyone else to look at it, check out our profiles and see if there is an e-mail.

My addy: mborchid2@yahoo.com

I can send it to a few from here like: Redhat, WAT, Resillient, etc.

It w/b better to post it here but understand if you feel you can't.

L.